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Translations: Bleach 600 by BadKarma
---------- Post added at 01:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 PM ----------
FYI just in case you forgot...
Hodi did not dodge a single attack this entire arc...
Why would he suddenly be able to dodge Soru...
How is it that he did not dodge a single attack even vaguely relevant? The direct implication of what you are saying is that lucci is in some form even vaguely comparable to either luffy or zoro when it is painfully obvious lucci not only is not even remotely comparable to either of them but also that he would get one shotted by either of them without fighting back or even noticing if they were even mildly serious.
Ok, lets take a look at this from a doukiri perspective then. As we saw the pills double your strength each time you take them. In this particular regard taking a pill results in a direct increase in terms of strength, speed and stamina for the most part. Hodi was said to be strong, much more than arlong apparently. Of course, arlong was a bit on the weak side given his early appearance however this multiplier is easily significant and even then based on what we saw we should assume hodi's physical capacities increased more than what the pills would normally allow. In this regard, I don't see an universe where we could reasonably assume lucci would in any form match hodi when it comes to physical prowess, it makes no sense whatsoever given how the pills worked, what his mutation did or the context of the manga at this particular point. Now, obviously lucci was better at rokushiki than hodi at fishman karate but that still does not make up for the sheer difference in physical capacity. Honestly, a few pills and it wouldn't even be weird that even the commanders would put up a fight against the guy(they did take out the princes quite easily to say the least). In this particular case we would be talking about hodi, who we have a pretty good reference of him being a decent bit stronger than arlong, going through a weird mutation which multiplied his power several times. And it still does not make a shred of sense that rankyaku or shigan would suddenly be game winners against this guy. Why would those things be the game winners they are said to be against hodi when they never even came vaguely close to that against the strawhats? Its absurd.
The fact he hasn't dodged a single attack is more than enough to infer that he has no chance of dodging the Steel Cutting Rankakyu...
You say I'm inferring Lucci is as good as Luffy and Zoro is now... that is a dumb statement... it's obvious I'm not saying that... are you inferring that Hodi is that good, he comes off pre-timeskip supernova-ish to me...
Doruki is based on strength alone it doesn't take in account devil fruit or speed or any other latent abilities... My whole argument for Lucci is that he wouldn't worry about Hodi's strength when he can fight from Long Distance
I'm also still waiting on a return answer on what I said last post...
When someone said that Hodi would be able to fight against Soru as easily as Luffy and Zoro...
Luffy's speed feats from Enies Lobby in base form are more amazing than Hodi's... add in Gear 2nd and Hodi's speed never should be compared
Zoro's could dodge lightspeed paw pads and you say he can't move at soru speed...
Take this into account... Lucci knows his limit, do you think he would go hand to hand with a behemoth like Hodi and commit suicide stupidly...
Yet.. you guys still argue in favor of Hodi, who equates to pacifista without the super tough metal skin and no laser...
Hodi is just a tank, with weak Fishman Karate, with no speed feats on land, who hasn't shown the slightest ability to dodge...
Of course doriki only considers physical strength, I was only making the point that it would make far more sense for hodi to be physically considerably superior at the very least than lucci.
in terms of range I would think hodi is the superior one. Hodi's range borders in a little over a mile and his attacks are not precisely slow either (they need speed for them to have that range to begin with).
And the steel cutting rankyaku does not hold. Whenever the strawhats were hit by such an attack they were never immediately beheaded or mutilated. Why would we assume the effect would be different against hodi? More so, if we already have reason to reasonably believe hodi is significantly more physically capable than lucci, why would we assume he would be hit so easily? Rankyaku is not any more of a game winner than what it was against pre time skip strawhats.
I can't understand how people can even believe that Lucci has any chance against Hodi. We know that every pill doubles your strength and other physical capacities and Hodi ate tons of it (I would say about 20, cause even when he went chained to punish the pirate crew that managed to escape from them in the begining of the Arc he already ate several pills and at that pint he already managed to break the quite a big ship from the botttom to the deck with just his teeth and I don't believe Rankiaku would do the same.). When he transformed Hodi got on a totally different level. I would actually say that at that point he would have already managed to take Pacifista down, but even after that Hodi ate several pills. Also I hope everyone agrees that before the timeskip Luffy was already stronger than Lucci, but he and all his crew barely managed to take down one Pacifista. Now Luffy needs just one Haki infused partly Gear 2 pistolet to not only destroy it, but also make it explode, but Hodi managed to withstand tons of this punches. Also about Hodi's toughness. Even in the begining of the Arc when he went to punish that pirate crew that escaped from NFP he only ate several pills, but managed to take plenty of cannonballs and some were rather big from practically point blanck without even noticing them, thus I do believe that his body's toughness might be at Pacifista's level not only after his transformation, but even before. The thing is that we don't see it that clear, because Mugivaras are now that strong. Of course it was tough for Hodi to take Zoro's sword attack, but men that attack managed to slice a ship two or three times bigger than Sunny-Go in half under water... thus I do believe Hodi will in no way loose to Lucci. Especially if we remember Hodi's attack Water Bullet that had an enourmous range, way better than any Rankiaku we've ever seen in the manga.
Also about Hodi's speed. Remember the moment Luffy attacked Hammond, Hyozou and one more fishman at the begining of the Arc. He was so fast that he really dissapeared and it was barely posible to see his attacks so fast he was. And he wasn't that serious. So of course Hodi couldn't react to such a level of speed, but I do believe that Lucci is also incapable of reacting to such speed, cause it's far beyond Soru.
Yeah, it's actually pretty simple:
Lucci < Luffy pre timeskip < Pacifista < E.S. Hodi -> -> Hodi>Lucci
Luffy could one-hit-ko a Pacifista, but he couldn't one-hit-ko Hodi. Before the timeskip, all strawhats were needed to take out a single Pacifista.
Also: Lucci was nearly killed by a single Gear 3rd punch: http://www.mangareader.net/103-2529-...apter-422.html
Withstanding Gear 3rd wasn't too hard for Pacifistas and it would be laughably easy for E.S. Hodi to withstand it.
And this attack would probably have been enough to take out Lucci instantly: http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/631/9
I know noone likes Hodi (for good reasons!!) but there's really no need to devaluate his powers that much.
Did you read the whole discussion? It has gone beyond simple > and <'s^^.
Lucci had actually a back and forth bout with Luffy, Hodi on the other hand just didn't seem to feel any pain due to his Bizarro status. It was never shown that Hodi could take Fusen attacks easily. He had to chomp on a lot of ES to go on after the Red Hawk attack and was downed by Luffy's strongest attack shown till now, the Elephant Gatling, which would probably shatter any of his previous adversaries.
P.S.: I voted for Hodi.
edit: Let's make it a couple of </>s with added argumentation.
Last edited by Schabrak; January 17, 2012 at 01:24 PM.
Realistically speaking there is little reason for this fight to be more complex than a>b>c. That sort of thing apply when there are particular weaknesses or variable factors. This is a straight fight between strictly melee fighters. If anything, hodi would even have the advantage against a DF user thanks to his ranged water attacks (not much but at least the factors that would make the fight variate from a>b>c are in hodi's favor).
Seriously, I read most of the threat and I couldn't find at least one convincing argument why Hodi should be weaker than Lucci.
Luffy beat Hodi like 200 chapters before he met Hodi and his strenght improved enormously since then. Do people here really believe that Oda would show us this improvement in terms of strenght and experience Luffy gained by letting him beat up someone weaker than a guy who couldn't beat Luffy 200 chapters and 2 years before? Now that would be just horrible storytelling!
It's not like Luffy needed to find out Lucci's weakness or whatever as he did with Crocodile. Both fights were just simple melee-punching-fights. A simple "</>" therefore pretty much does it in my opinion
The thing to argue for Lucci is, that he was the top agent of the World Government, at least there was nobody else hinted to, to being stronger. And has shown certain abnormal feats, being a prodigy, mastery over Rokushiki, which is also used by the viceadmirals and up. [Let's exclude Coby from this, he stand under different plot-based circumstances.] Mastery over his zoan DF without any kind of Rumble Balls.
On the other hand, Hodi was only a threat within water, when Luffy's fighting ability was reduced immensely.
Conclusion: Lucci was far to strong, while the circumstances made it look like Hodi has any chance of winning.
Than we've also got the conclusion of some members, that Luffy evading the Shark Arrows is the same speed as soru, which was/is the fastest moving technique known. There's no doubt other pirates move just as fast/if not faster Imo.
Pro Lucci members: Lucci can evade Hodis fast attacks.
Pro Hodi members: Lucci has no CoO, nor can we really compare Luffy's current speed to the past. And Shark Arrows move at top speed as shown with the one going through mountains.
Hodi wasn't shown dodging Luffys attack, which may be due to self-confidence/unreadiness at times. He also wasn't shown to be move as fast as in the water. lol, that's a given :P
Pro Lucci members: Hodi won't be able to dodge the offensive mid/long-range Rokushiki techniques.
Pro Hodi members: Luffy is just that much faster than anybody else in this arc and didn't let Hodi move.
I've had my fill of this discussion, so let me stop here.^^
edit: If it wasn't for this meaningless repetition cicles of certain arguments, most VS threads in this forum could end within a page or two. In my opinion that's the most annoying problematic with that kind of threads.
Last edited by Schabrak; January 17, 2012 at 11:01 PM.
You're having quite a long nice discussion with yourself there. But as I allready said, I actually read all that stuff before and yet there was and is no convincing argument. There's nothing new for me in your post.
But thanks for it anyway, it's allways nice when someone sums up old discussions. It prevents them from becoming repetetive after a while.
Last edited by GiantAlienHamster; January 17, 2012 at 05:31 PM.
It seems u still don't get our point. We have repeatedly stated Luffy is by far stronger, which also means FASTER. Just because Hodi couldn't match Luffy's speed, it does NOT mean he won't match Lucci's speed. In fact if Luffy would fight Lucci right now, their battle would probably go like this. Even Lucci with his fastest soru will be quite easily outmatched by Luffy's speed. I highly doubt Luffy would even need to go Gear 2 to catch/beat him.
Post Luffy vs EL Lucci would be much like Luffy vs Coby. Therefore plz don't downgrade Hodi on his speed against Luffy, because even Lucci couldn't be able to pull anything. I repeat, Post-Luffy is by far stronger (and faster) than Pre-Luffy.
As to material damage vs character damage: Oda uses destruction on physical objects to hype the damage output. So just cause Lucci's Rankyak-Gaicho can cut steel, doesn't mean Hodi can be cut just as easily. I know Luffy's words (panel2) but those were just to hype his attack.
Such one-hit cuts, as u implied, only work if there is a huge difference in power, like Mwk vs Das Bones or Zoro vs Hodi. But such difference is not given in the fight between Lucci and Hodi. To further prove my point: With these examples it should be clear Oda just uses physical objects (material) to hype the damage output.
- Luff's Gear 3 was able to destroy steel, yet Lucci survived that.
- Ace's hiken took out a few ships, yet BB survived that.
- Kizaru's laser took out a mangrove and with the same laser Kuma melted steel on TB, yet Zoro survived that.
- Mr1 cut with his attack a stone pillar in slices, yet Zoro survived that.
- I could go one, but Im tired.. xD