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Thread: Bleach 476 Discussion

  1. #151
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Grekaosangel View Post
    One thing strikes me as odd though. Ginjo "was" a substitute shinigami, he has the badge and all. But he's only been using Fullbring this entire arc, the badge which gives the user the ability to turn into a shinigami...instead of using it that way, Ginjo merely applies it as part of his fullbring. Which makes sense given he was a sub shini at one point, he has a bond with the badge and he should be able to merge it into the sword.

    So is Ginjo really capable of being a shinigami right now? If not then he can't have an inner hollow. Which also begs the question of why he didn't use shinigami powers first, and only rely on Fullbring this entire time? My guess is he can't become one anymore...he used to be one, and that's how he's able to do things like Bankai. (I still think it's from Ichigo but that's irrelevant)

    Then again, I find it extremely strange that from all we've seen of Ginjo's changes, have mainly been cosmetic in nature primarily...so it's hard to tell right now if all we've seen is just Ichigo's Fullbring at work, allowing Ginjo to exert external influences from his Hollow-based powers, and shinigami past powers from the badge...or possibly copying Ichigo's powers but on a significantly obvious lesser extent.
    The badge doesn't give you shinigami powers, the badge allows you to fight in spirit form. The Ginjo thing is kinda weird, there are some things I'm unclear of myself like he being a shinigami when the only thing he's don't so far is go bankai without an actual zanpuktou lol

    But if Kubo says he's a shinigami and nothing outright refutes that, its just one of those lesser things in the manga you just have to accept canonically even if it seems so stupid/weird/lazy etc.

  2. #152
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Grekaosangel's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    The badge doesn't give you shinigami powers, the badge allows you to fight in spirit form. The Ginjo thing is kinda weird, there are some things I'm unclear of myself like he being a shinigami when the only thing he's don't so far is go bankai without an actual zanpuktou lol

    But if Kubo says he's a shinigami and nothing outright refutes that, its just one of those lesser things in the manga you just have to accept canonically even if it seems so stupid/weird/lazy etc.
    What I meant by that, is that instead of him using the badge to go into his Shinigami/Spirit form...instead he just affixes it to Cross of Scaffold. So at this point he's still human right? There has to be a reason why he didn't instead go into his Shinigami form like Ichigo clearly is right now. (ex. Just like when he first was a Shinigami, after being stabbed by Rukia)

    I'm sure the following chapters will illuminate alot of questions, but it's just odd the way things have been worded and how things have happened as they have.

    EDIT:
    A thought just occurred to me. When Ichigo was using his Fullbring, he was capable of some techniques from his Zanpakuto, namely Getsuga Tensho. It might be possible that Ginjo can't go into spirit form anymore with his badge. Given the fact that it's designed to trace him, he must of done something to prevent it from working anymore like the way it was intended by Soul Society. Would make sense and all, given the Shinigami needed Ichigo to lure Ginjo out.

    So if he can't use the badge properly, all he can do is Fullbring the memories from it,and perhaps merging that with his Cross of Scaffold allows him certain powers. Mix that with Ichigo's Fullbring type, and we have what we've seen so far. External representation of Ginjo's hollow-based Fullbring, and the techs that Ichigo can use as described by Ishida earlier.

    I still think using GT, and Bankai, and (inevitably Hollow mask if Ichigo needs one) is just the fact that Ginjo stole those techs from Ichigo. It's too suspicious that he used all of them after Ichigo did first, and the fact that Ginjo never released a Zanpakuto to use Bankai. Nevermind the obvious fact that Bankai isn't something so easily achieved. Ginjo even points out that Ichigo has tremendous Reiastu. Ichigo is a special case, I doubt Ginjo is the same way. Not to mention his Bankai didn't do much else other than some cosmetic changes, like Ichigo's changing Fullbring did. I think it's just mimicking Ichigo right now.
    Last edited by Grekaosangel; December 13, 2011 at 12:13 PM.

  3. #153
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member ceasar's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Grekaosangel View Post
    What I meant by that, is that instead of him using the badge to go into his Shinigami/Spirit form...instead he just affixes it to Cross of Scaffold. So at this point he's still human right? There has to be a reason why he didn't instead go into his Shinigami form like Ichigo clearly is right now. (ex. Just like when he first was a Shinigami, after being stabbed by Rukia)

    I'm sure the following chapters will illuminate alot of questions, but it's just odd the way things have been worded and how things have happened as they have.




    EDIT:
    A thought just occurred to me. When Ichigo was using his Fullbring, he was capable of some techniques from his Zanpakuto, namely Getsuga Tensho. It might be possible that Ginjo can't go into spirit form anymore with his badge. Given the fact that it's designed to trace him, he must of done something to prevent it from working anymore like the way it was intended by Soul Society. Would make sense and all, given the Shinigami needed Ichigo to lure Ginjo out.

    So if he can't use the badge properly, all he can do is Fullbring the memories from it,and perhaps merging that with his Cross of Scaffold allows him certain powers. Mix that with Ichigo's Fullbring type, and we have what we've seen so far. External representation of Ginjo's hollow-based Fullbring, and the techs that Ichigo can use as described by Ishida earlier.

    I still think using GT, and Bankai, and (inevitably Hollow mask if Ichigo needs one) is just the fact that Ginjo stole those techs from Ichigo. It's too suspicious that he used all of them after Ichigo did first, and the fact that Ginjo never released a Zanpakuto to use Bankai. Nevermind the obvious fact that Bankai isn't something so easily achieved. Ginjo even points out that Ichigo has tremendous Reiastu. Ichigo is a special case, I doubt Ginjo is the same way. Not to mention his Bankai didn't do much else other than some cosmetic changes, like Ichigo's changing Fullbring did. I think it's just mimicking Ichigo right now.
    This seems to be the case ginjou is nothing more than a cheap imitation of ichigo that is why SS decided to let him live as long as they did he didn't pose a significant threat. If ginjou had the ability to become transcendental I doubt SS or Aizen wouldn't have sought him out before this point.
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...ewpost&t=62941 What's your favorite zanpakuto release command I want to know? Click the link http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...ewpost&t=63012 What is the worst zanpakuto ability and other techniques I want to know?

  4. #154
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Grekaosangel's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar View Post
    This seems to be the case ginjou is nothing more than a cheap imitation of ichigo that is why SS decided to let him live as long as they did he didn't pose a significant threat. If ginjou had the ability to become transcendental I doubt SS or Aizen wouldn't have sought him out before this point.
    Well for the purpose of plot elements introduced later, it would be hard to tie that in. But I'm not so sure his power is just a copy of Ichigo's. He does have some merit to his fighting prowess, I just think what he's showing us now, is tricks taking from Ichigo's repertoire at this point.

    With Urahara quickly on the way to the scene, we're bound within the next few chapters, if not the next, some explanations as to what's all up with Ginjo.

  5. #155
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    I was wondering if "Cross of Scaffold" is actually his Shikai's name lol,though I highly doubt it.

  6. #156
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    Well, I would personally find it very strange if ginjo indeed had shinigami powers of his own right now. It would be completely incoherent. A spiritual body has the advantage of greater resistance to damage and a zampakuto has the benefit of shikai and bankai. Even if ginjo's fullbring took after his original shikai and bankai(if he had them) he would still risk fighting in his original frail human body. More so, if he has his own shinigami powers then why would he be so bent on stealing ichigo's? At this time and place I doubt ginjo has shinigami powers of his own, it would not quite add up for the most part. It is possible that him being a fullbringer for a longer time allowed for a deeper connection between his fullbring and shinigami powers however it would still not quite explain what we saw. The fact of the matter right now is that ginjo never fought in spirit form, he never used his original shinigami powers, his used his fullbring and the powers he took from ichigo and then with those he proceeded to use bankai. Now, perhaps the manga points to something slightly different than what most of us took it for. Perhaps the issue here is that he knew how to use bankai because at some point he had one of his own rather than him at the moment being using his own actual original bankai. Not sure if I am clear with this...

  7. #157
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    what if ginjos zanpakuto and fullbring are one in the same. hes not turning his cross into a sword, hes turning his zanpakuto into a cross. that would be a logical way to conceal it since he obviously isnt in spirit form and cant walk around with a giant sword in public. this is just a theory which may help to explain the "sudden appearance" of ginjos shini powers
    Last edited by theshellbullet; December 13, 2011 at 07:57 PM.

  8. #158
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    Well, turning the zampakuto into the cross would not quite work. A zampakuto is a spiritual object which cannot be seen by humans and we in fact saw ichigo without a speck of power being able to see it. It is within the realm of possibilities that ginjo was able to fully manifest his zampakuto (and perhaps hollow powers) through his fullbring though (contrary to ichigo whose fullbring only represented the upper layer of his powers). That would perhaps explain his bankai.

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  10. #159
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    Isn't Benihime visible even when Kisuke has it as a cane? I know he's been in public with it, but not sure if there was an indication whether it was visible or not to ordinary people.

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  12. #160
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Ziero's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    As far as Ginjo's shinigami powers are concered I think its simply possible that his shinigami and fullbring powers have fused completely at this point. For example Ichigo was only in possession of his fullbring for a liitle while but they had already started to fuse with his latent shinigami powers. Now that he has regained the bulk of his shinigami powers it looks like some of his fullbring had starded to fuse with his shinigami powers, hence the new look and X motif (just my opinion anyway). So in Ginjo's case its highly possible that his shinigami and fullbring powers have completely fused (he's had them both far longer) in which case there would probably be little to no difference in his overall ability in spirit form or human form (aside from increased durability in spirit form which might not even be the case). Basically any ability he had as a shinigami or fullbringer can now be used in either form since they are one and the same. IMO thats probably the case as to why he didn't go spirit form.
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  14. #161
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    I feel as though Ginjou Is a Sub-Shini by title only. If he was the same as ichigo he wouldn't have referred to himself as the direct opposite of ichigo. Even though tsuki stabbed him i don't think he could rewrite ginjous memory completely, he only can insert himself into someones memory not change their memory entirely.

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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    like rikudou king said if u can see uraharas cane which is his zanpakuto why couldnt u see ginjos. if his fullbring, which can or should be able to be able to be seen by humans, merged completely with his shini powers which cant be seen by humans (with exceptions) would that 1. make the fullbring invisible to humans or 2. make the shini powers and zanpakuto visible to humans.

  16. #163
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Grekaosangel's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, I would personally find it very strange if ginjo indeed had shinigami powers of his own right now. It would be completely incoherent. A spiritual body has the advantage of greater resistance to damage and a zampakuto has the benefit of shikai and bankai. Even if ginjo's fullbring took after his original shikai and bankai(if he had them) he would still risk fighting in his original frail human body. More so, if he has his own shinigami powers then why would he be so bent on stealing ichigo's? At this time and place I doubt ginjo has shinigami powers of his own, it would not quite add up for the most part. It is possible that him being a fullbringer for a longer time allowed for a deeper connection between his fullbring and shinigami powers however it would still not quite explain what we saw. The fact of the matter right now is that ginjo never fought in spirit form, he never used his original shinigami powers, his used his fullbring and the powers he took from ichigo and then with those he proceeded to use bankai. Now, perhaps the manga points to something slightly different than what most of us took it for. Perhaps the issue here is that he knew how to use bankai because at some point he had one of his own rather than him at the moment being using his own actual original bankai. Not sure if I am clear with this...
    Yeah, don't worry I got what you meant. I also find it strange to think this is his Shinigami powers. I'm definitely leaning towards it being a result of his own Fullbring and Ichigo's Fullbring together. It's possible he may of acquired his own Shikai and Bankai as a Sub Shini when he was one, but does that mean he could use it as a Fullbringer? I dunno.

    He's clearly not a Shinigami as all wear some sort of those black robes...I can't spell the technical term for it. So I really am thinking the powers he took from Ichigo, which Ishida thinks could be all of his techs, are just that...he's mimicking Ichigo. The look he's got now is just a manifestation of the hollow-influence that Fullbringers have.

    Ichigo uses Getsuga, Ginjo uses it back.
    Ichigo uses Bankai, Ginjo uses Bankai.

    I find it hard to believe that he's really using his own Shinigami power. Plus it doesn't make any sense for Ginjo to have his badge, and not be able to be traced by SS. I certainly don't think that Ginjo stole Ichigo's badge, seeing as he was given one by Ukitake, and he would only be able to merge and Fullbring it if he had a bond with it. (If that makes sense) Ergo, the badge is Ginjos for sure, and there must be a reason why he can't become a shinigami again.

    ---------- Post added at 11:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziero View Post
    As far as Ginjo's shinigami powers are concered I think its simply possible that his shinigami and fullbring powers have fused completely at this point. For example Ichigo was only in possession of his fullbring for a liitle while but they had already started to fuse with his latent shinigami powers. Now that he has regained the bulk of his shinigami powers it looks like some of his fullbring had starded to fuse with his shinigami powers, hence the new look and X motif (just my opinion anyway). So in Ginjo's case its highly possible that his shinigami and fullbring powers have completely fused (he's had them both far longer) in which case there would probably be little to no difference in his overall ability in spirit form or human form (aside from increased durability in spirit form which might not even be the case). Basically any ability he had as a shinigami or fullbringer can now be used in either form since they are one and the same. IMO thats probably the case as to why he didn't go spirit form.
    There's no doubt that Ichigo's Fullbring began to affix itself to his other powers, but the appearance only was noticeable once he WAS a shinigami again. Ginjo clearly isn't a shinigami at this point. It wouldn't make sense if he was able to be one.

    His badge clearly can't be traced, and he's never used it in the way Ichigo does to become a Shinigami. For instance Ichigo before he got his Reiatsu back, couldn't even go into spirit form. Ginjo with his own badge, should be able to, yet he never does. Why?

    Further, Ginjo's Fullbring merging with his Shinigami powers, isn't what could be at work here. Sure Cross of Scaffold can be seen by anyone unlike Shinigami and their Zanpakuto, but the look and skills Ginjo is displaying all points to Ichigo's clad-type Fullbring which allows others' Fullbrings to be used outside their normal parameters. 'Sides, the fact that Ishida mentioned Ginjo could have all of Ichigo's Techniques isn't just conjecture. Kubo always does things like this, mentioning little odd details that end up being really key points later. Kubo had Ishida say that for a reason, I think this is why.

    So in this case, I think Ginjo is just using the techs stolen from Ichigo, or perhaps these are his Fullbring powers. Truthfully we've never seen or been told exactly what Ginjo's powers are.

  17. #164
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion / 477 Predictions

    When Ginjo spoke about the benefits of being a fullbringer who has previously lost his power when he trained Ichigo he probably referred to himself.
    Fullbrings are without own names, the user choses it for himself.
    It is possible that his fullbring emulates his shinigami powers, but like Ichigo it is actually the inverse of his power.
    Huge sword+Long robe -> compact hollow armor+small shortsword

  18. #165
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 476 Discussion

    uhm,the discussion about ichigo,made by the captains was a bit boring,but it's okay,now I can see a purpose for this arc,although it seems a bit forced IMO.

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