Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

[sho87]

Hi there, anyone ever think about how much Kishimoto seemingly faps to Sasuke getting away with all these crimes, his general arrogance and self entitlement and being redeemed is wrong and unfair, well I'm here to clear that misconception.

I think the main reason we call Sasuke a badly written and despicable character, is that Kishimoto writes him off as someone who’s inevitable fate is set in stone and is can’t do anything about plot wise, because Sasuke is someone who is choosen by the villain to represent the core foundation of hate, Kishimoto finds various excuses to make Sasuke potent to this ideal as a main character, making him fail and suffer all because the author is desperately trying to portray an epic clash of peace vs. hatred with Sasuke as the scapegoat in a manga that so hopes to solidify a legendary main hero and his story on how he defeated and won over his de facto arch rival and anti thesis.

Sasuke’s characters leaves a lot to be desired(he could have been more than generic emo rival who is a genius), but he’s written to justify Naruto’s character and goals, to make him the centerpiece of the standard example of hope, friendship, bonds, destiny and hardwork. Nothing Sasuke does is character driven on choice alone, Sasuke blames the hate he’s become and solves all his problems by getting revenge or venturing out to settle some personal score making him one dimensional in his role in the manga.

Notice how Naruto has the most develop outside of becoming Hokage and being acknowledged, he’s always doing the greatest adventures and being useful for different things. But Sasuke is always brooding and frowning at the world trying to gain more power.

I think Kishimoto loves Naruto so much, he uses Sasuke to show his readers which path to him is the most tragic and failing in life, while Naruto is a character that we relate to and find our self immersed in his story and life, being the hero and actually having strong social themes in the manga.

So Sasuke doesn’t deserve this, I believe Kishimoto made Sasuke to over glorify his blonde headed avatar so that the hero can become Jesus status, while the dark and tortured emo basks in his transcendent light scowling at the envy he holds to Naruto.

[ninjabot]

I agree to a certain extent, if only because Sasuke was never supposed to exist in the first place, but was created intentionally to be a foil to Naruto. There wasn't a rival type character in Kishimoto's manga, but he was convinced by his editor to create one. Then Kishimoto researched what made a good rival in a manga and eventually put those ideas together to create Sasuke as we know him now.

He's designed to be the polar opposite of Naruto, but his use as an antagonist contradicts that, as Naruto is far more emotionally driven than Sasuke is, yet it's Sasuke who's the one being enslaved by his emotions.

The part I don't agree with is why people hate him. It's not because of what Kishimoto has planned for him in the end and the roll he's played: it's because of what he's been doing up to this point. He stole the manga from Naruto for a long time, which would piss off anyone who's a Naruto fan that'd rather see the main character in action. Even worse, Naruto's made at every turn to look inferior to Sasuke to keep the "anti-thesis rivalry" going. From character design, to ninjutsu, to plot, to action scenes, everything. Even when he does something right, he's immediately shown to still be inept (tripping and falling on his face in a fight, forgetting an opponent's abilities 1 minute after just seeing them, showing up to save the day and requiring someone to save him instead).

It wouldn't be such a big problem if Naruto could do the same badass stuff Sasuke does, but in a different way. And even better: stop making Naruto act stupid. Unfortunately he can't, because the downside of having Sasuke act like the complete opposite of Naruto is that both ninja can't go too far out of their defined roles. Naruto may not always be completely inept, but he WILL always be vapid. Sasuke may not always be hate filled in the end, but he WILL always be cool and distant.

[chilibun]

@sho87

I disagree. I don't see how Kishi is trying to justify Sasuke's actions anymore than previous villians such Nagato, Gaara, or even Orochimaru. Even the lesser "evil" characters like Hanzou and Danzou are given some type of justifications for their actions. Kishi simply doesn't want his characters or his shinobi world to be so black and white.

I also don't think Sasuke is poorly written at all. I don't understand this notion that all characters are "suppose" to overcome their fate/demons. That's just way too unrealistic for me. Not everybody strives be "good." You can call Sasuke a victim of fate, but he chose his path the moment he left for Orochimaru. If anything, I applaud him for staying his path because unlike everybody else in this manga, he is at least committed. How many times does the villian just change his mind because Naruto gave him some hugs and kisses? Its so stupid. Even the so called embodiment of hate, the Kyuubi, is a weak minded pansy.

[juUnior]

I think the main reason we call Sasuke a badly written and despicable character

As I always write about such things mentioned by ppl: 'despicable character'? Yes, indeed, right now definitely for most of the ppl. "Badly written"? Hell no, he is one of the few characters to be written just almost perfectly till now. Those 2 things shouldn't be mixed up as they are 2 different things whether someone likes or hates Sasuke, imo. <I don't even think its imo, its just common logic xd>

[Jammin]

I would agree with sho87 in that I think Sasuke has not been well written. Terribly written in fact.

But I would not say it's because Kishi favors Naruto because ever since the turtle island arc Naruto's character has suffered almost as much. Naruto and Sasuke have both been so ridiculously polarized into "Hatred" and "Friendship" that the characters themselves have been left by the wayside.

The thing that makes it worse for Sasuke is that there was never much of a character there to begin with. What is really underneath the hatred, desire for revenge, egotism, insecurity? Those are all great things when applied to a character. The problem with Sasuke underneath all those things his character is as shallow as dry river bed.

Sasuke to me is the ultimate example of character that is all style and very little substance.

If you take away vengeance, hatred, arrogance, etc..; and focus on who he is as a person....you get almost nothing. The last time we saw any sign of a character in Sasuke was at the Valley of the End and even that was just a trickle. Every since he's practically been cardboard cutout making an angry face. Even when he fought Sasuke showed almost no underling character, he was all about the moment.

Something that also damages my opinion of him are his relationships with those around him. He is now and always has been emotionally distant, humorless, ill tempered, arrogant, jerk. Naruto's irrational loyalty makes sense but everybody else's comes across to me as completely ridiculous. He's not charismatic. He's not preaching some ideal that people believe in. He was never really a great guy. So people acting like he was, makes him seem even weaker as a character. If he is to lead others he should be doing it for some reason not because being the antagonist somehow entitles him to them!

[ninjabot]

Naruto's irrational loyalty makes sense but everybody else's comes across to me as completely ridiculous. He's not charismatic. He's not preaching some ideal that people believe in.

I agree with most everything up there except for this part (and the terribly written part). The girls were attracted to him, and the guys respected and envied his skill. Likewise there was a sense of loyalty to him because he was from the same village as they were. Shikamaru said it best when he started the "rescue Sasuke" arc. He didn't like him, and he was sure Sasuke didn't like him either, but he was a Konoha ninja, and they were honor-bound to help him. Ontop of that they gave up when it was time to, so that adds more realism to the villagers feelings about Sasuke.

As for terribly written, Sasuke was written to hold a certain spot, and he does so well (the yang to Naruto's yin, the anti-thesis). His reasoning for opposing him is okay, his reason for taking a different path perfect, and his anger understandable. It's the stuff outside of that that could use some work (though really, if we saw things like 'what's Sasuke's favorite hobby' or 'how does Sasuke feel about ramen', it'd take away from how serious he is about the destruction of Konoha).

Anything learned about Sasuke outside of his singular focus would be chalked up to a simple quirk, and wouldn't really matter at all (how many times has Kakashi's porn novels been important to... anything? What about Tsunade's gambling habit and bad luck?) I get that it would've been great to know more about him, but we know plenty for the type of character he's meant to be. He's incredibly prideful, he's family oriented, he's driven to a fault, he respects power, and pretty much anything else needed to be known to flesh out his character can be read at a wiki. Infact, they're less biased than me so I'll just link to his personality: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sasuke_Uchiha

[xXan]

All i will say here is that Sasuke is fully accountable for his actions but i can understand why he is doing them. Does he deserves a friend like Naruto and getting saved and redeemed in the end? Sure he does.

Personaly i love Sasuke as a caracter and how Kishi is tring justify Sasuke's action to show things from Sasuke's side of view.

Then again i love where the manga is going now. I can't w8 for Sasuke to fight whoever he is going to fight (last chapter, Sasuke moving out).

[Delbi]

I would agree with sho87 in that I think Sasuke has not been well written. Terribly written in fact.

But I would not say it's because Kishi favors Naruto because ever since the turtle island arc Naruto's character has suffered almost as much. Naruto and Sasuke have both been so ridiculously polarized into "Hatred" and "Friendship" that the characters themselves have been left by the wayside.

The thing that makes it worse for Sasuke is that there was never much of a character there to begin with. What is really underneath the hatred, desire for revenge, egotism, insecurity? Those are all great things when applied to a character. The problem with Sasuke underneath all those things his character is as shallow as dry river bed.

Sasuke to me is the ultimate example of character that is all style and very little substance.

If you take away vengeance, hatred, arrogance, etc..; and focus on who he is as a person....you get almost nothing. The last time we saw any sign of a character in Sasuke was at the Valley of the End and even that was just a trickle. Every since he's practically been cardboard cutout making an angry face. Even when he fought Sasuke showed almost no underling character, he was all about the moment.

Something that also damages my opinion of him are his relationships with those around him. He is now and always has been emotionally distant, humorless, ill tempered, arrogant, jerk. Naruto's irrational loyalty makes sense but everybody else's comes across to me as completely ridiculous. He's not charismatic. He's not preaching some ideal that people believe in. He was never really a great guy. So people acting like he was, makes him seem even weaker as a character. If he is to lead others he should be doing it for some reason not because being the antagonist somehow entitles him to them!

There is a reason why Sasuke is not much more than a revenge filled asshole, it's because as a child everything he had was taken from him, and Itachi instilled within him that he had to gain power so he could kill him. When he should have been developing his personality and the substance of his actual being, he instead was training and turning himself into a weapon with one goal: kill Itachi.

After that happened, he had nothing left until Tobi starting manipulating him. Sasuke's mind is extremely fragile since he's been continually mind fucked by his brother since he was seven, and then later manipulated by Tobi.

Ask yourself this. What was Gaara before he met Naruto? He wanted to kill people because he was lonely and because he thought he lacked love in his life. Gaara shined as a character when he had his breakthroughs with Naruto and his later his father. Sasuke hasn't quite had that breakthrough yet, although he has come close with Kakashi and Naruto.

So while you may think he is flawed, understand he is flawed for a reason, and to me, Sasuke is actually one of most well written characters in the manga because of how human and messed up he is.

[Jammin]

I agree with most everything up there except for this part (and the terribly written part). The girls were attracted to him, and the guys respected and envied his skill. Likewise there was a sense of loyalty to him because he was from the same village as they were. Shikamaru said it best when he started the "rescue Sasuke" arc. He didn't like him, and he was sure Sasuke didn't like him either, but he was a Konoha ninja, and they were honor-bound to help him. Ontop of that they gave up when it was time to, so that adds more realism to the villagers feelings about Sasuke.

As for terribly written, Sasuke was written to hold a certain spot, and he does so well (the yang to Naruto's yin, the anti-thesis). His reasoning for opposing him is okay, his reason for taking a different path perfect, and his anger understandable. It's the stuff outside of that that could use some work (though really, if we saw things like 'what's Sasuke's favorite hobby' or 'how does Sasuke feel about ramen', it'd take away from how serious he is about the destruction of Konoha).

Anything learned about Sasuke outside of his singular focus would be chalked up to a simple quirk, and wouldn't really matter at all (how many times has Kakashi's porn novels been important to... anything? What about Tsunade's gambling habit and bad luck?) I get that it would've been great to know more about him, but we know plenty for the type of character he's meant to be. He's incredibly prideful, he's family oriented, he's driven to a fault, he respects power, and pretty much anything else needed to be known to flesh out his character can be read at a wiki. Infact, they're less biased than me so I'll just link to his personality: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sasuke_Uchiha

When I say written terribly I don't mean as Foil or Naruto's anti-thesis. In that role he is functional, though I still would not call him well written even in that regard.

Where I think he is terribly written is as an individual character. In a good character personal motivations, systems of beliefs, relationships with others, and their natural personalities all play into creating a complete being. With Sasuke I just don't think the whole thing has ever come together. His personal motivations barely make sense. His system of beliefs seems to be constantly, and unnaturally, pushed in the most bitter and hate filled direction for narrative reasons, and lost almost completely in all that is his individual personality.

Sasuke's skill and good looks make sense to a degree regarding his relationships with other people but for people to base their relationship with him on that is so unbelievably shallow. And even that is all one directional, being about their relationship to him and never his relationship to them. In order to make meaningful relationships believable such connections need to flow both ways and with Sasuke they almost never do.

To be clear I'm not saying that Sasuke doesn't have a personality, relationships, or motivations. He does, but I think those facets of him have become so weak that they no longer allow him to pass as a shell of a believable character, and with him it's been that way since Itachi died.

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And something that scares me in all this is that I'm starting to see similarities to what was done with Sasuke's character and what is currently being done to Naruto's. And I don't like that at all.....

---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------

There is a reason why Sasuke is not much more than a revenge filled asshole, it's because as a child everything he had was taken from him, and Itachi instilled within him that he had to gain power so he could kill him. When he should have been developing his personality and the substance of his actual being, he instead was training and turning himself into a weapon with one goal: kill Itachi.

After that happened, he had nothing left until Tobi starting manipulating him. Sasuke's mind is extremely fragile since he's been continually mind fucked by his brother since he was seven, and then later manipulated by Tobi.

Ask yourself this. What was Gaara before he met Naruto? He wanted to kill people because he was lonely and because he thought he lacked love in his life. Gaara shined as a character when he had his breakthroughs with Naruto and his later his father. Sasuke hasn't quite had that breakthrough yet, although he has come close with Kakashi and Naruto.

So while you may think he is flawed, understand he is flawed for a reason, and to me, Sasuke is actually one of most well written characters in the manga because of how human and messed up he is.

I have no problem with Sasuke being a "revenge filled asshole" as you put it or a "flawed character". That doesn't make him poorly written, in fact often times such characters are the best written. The problem with Sasuke is that his whole character flows unnaturally and IMO is put together poorly.

Let me throw out some characters I think Kishimoto crafted well. Orochimaru, Kisame, Danzou, Raikage, Sasori, and Deidara.

All of those character's are complete characters. The whole package comes together with each of them. Sasuke despite being far more vital to the plot never manages to seem coherent as a character and other people's actions regarding seem equally unnatural to me. I think he needs his role as Naruto's anti-thesis at this point, and the same goes for Tobi manipulating him, because that's the only thing holding it all together. Without that he would just be a train wreck of character that Kishi would have to kill off just for the sake of getting ride of him. Sasuke the character is dead and left in his place a hate-zombie with no soul.

Now I know that probably sound harsh, but that's the way I see Sasuke at this point. He's more of a plot device than he is a character in my eyes.

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And as for the example of Garra. His character was always coherent. His pain and loneliness turned to rage and caused him to do terrible things until he learned that what he truly longed for was the kind of connection he saw in Naruto. He was flawed as a person but the flow of his character was not flawed; in fact it was well written.

[ninjabot]

To be clear I'm not saying that Sasuke doesn't have a personality, relationships, or motivations. He does, but I think those facets of him have become so weak that they no longer allow him to pass as a shell of a believable character, and with him it's been that way since Itachi died.

Fair enough. The only thing I can say in defense of that is that it's because of the character's role that more of his life can't be fleshed out. He's the rival. He got a huge amount of screen time to flesh out his development as the anti-Naruto, but only enough to show how worse off he's doing mentally and how strong he is in a fight. Inorder to give more layers to him it would've taken even more time showing him and Taka aswell. It would've taken an entire arc of literally just Sasuke reacting to stimuli to give us the kind of character interaction needed to make him as fleshed out as you'd like. And that amount of screentime can't be allocated to just the rival or there'd be a mutiny among fans.

Hell, look how many complaints there were for the amount of screen time he actually DID get.

Also, I don't know how you could say Orochimaru is a more complete character than Sasuke. Just like Sasuke we've seen that a tragedy during childhood screwed him up, and he devoted his life to conquering death, which lead him to do despicable things. The only difference between he and Sasuke is that he's not letting anyone control him. Just like with Sasuke and Taka, everyone beneath him was a tool. That's the extent of his character interaction: using people and killing people on his way to his goal. It's not dead, but it's certainly no more impressive a history. Hell, we don't even see the exact instant he turned batshit crazy. He just kinda... did. With Sasuke it all gels. It all works. Hate switched from a driving force to a controlling one gradually, and there are climaxes in his development that lets you pinpoint and say "Okay, this is the instant he reached maximum insanity". The same can't really be said about Orochimaru IMO.

Though in his defense, just like Sasuke, he was just a tool to set things in motion for Naruto to overcome. We didn't need to know anything at all outside of "Orochimaru is a badguy", which is less than we needed to know about Sasuke.

[Rosebunse]

I don't think Kishi is really trying to justify what Sasuke's doing. I think his break down after his fight with Naruto the last time pretty much says that.

He's insane, but also, he's supposed to show the process of what the ninja system does to certain people.

[Jammin]

Fair enough. The only thing I can say in defense of that is that it's because of the character's role that more of his life can't be fleshed out. He's the rival. He got a huge amount of screen time to flesh out his development as the anti-Naruto, but only enough to show how worse off he's doing mentally and how strong he is in a fight. Inorder to give more layers to him it would've taken even more time showing him and Taka aswell. It would've taken an entire arc of literally just Sasuke reacting to stimuli to give us the kind of character interaction needed to make him as fleshed out as you'd like. And that amount of screentime can't be allocated to just the rival or there'd be a mutiny among fans.

Hell, look how many complaints there were for the amount of screen time he actually DID get.

That's true enough.

Which is one of the reasons I just don't think Sasuke is Kishi's best work overall. Seems to me that characters like Garra, Itachi, Minato, Jiriaya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade all managed to bring a lot more to the story with a lot less screen time. It seems like Sasuke should be a lot deeper character than he is by now.

Which begs the question, considering where the Naruto/Sasuke focus has taken the series, was all that stuff really worth it? I ask because I truly am not sure.

Also, I don't know how you could say Orochimaru is a more complete character than Sasuke. Just like Sasuke we've seen that a tragedy during childhood screwed him up, and he devoted his life to conquering death, which lead him to do despicable things. The only difference between he and Sasuke is that he's not letting anyone control him. Just like with Sasuke and Taka, everyone beneath him was a tool. That's the extent of his character interaction: using people and killing people on his way to his goal. It's not dead, but it's certainly no more impressive a history. Hell, we don't even see the exact instant he turned batshit crazy. He just kinda... did. With Sasuke it all gels. It all works. Hate switched from a driving force to a controlling one gradually, and there are climaxes in his development that lets you pinpoint and say "Okay, this is the instant he reached maximum insanity". The same can't really be said about Orochimaru IMO.

Though in his defense, just like Sasuke, he was just a tool to set things in motion for Naruto to overcome. We didn't need to know anything at all outside of "Orochimaru is a badguy", which is less than we needed to know about Sasuke.

Orochimaru was a charismatic sociopath.

In his mind the world was his playground and all the people in it his playthings. His search for power and knowledge became a motivation onto itself seeking to become more than human. And people followed him because that was an ideal they could understand and because he often valued people the world did not, even if he did so only as tools, experiments, or playthings.

So, though Orochimaru was a crazy ruthless villain, the underlying character was pretty well put together in my opinion. He makes sense from every angle I look at him from.

[UchihaHunter]

Where I think he is terribly written is as an individual character. In a good character personal motivations, systems of beliefs, relationships with others, and their natural personalities all play into creating a complete being. With Sasuke I just don't think the whole thing has ever come together. His personal motivations barely make sense. His system of beliefs seems to be constantly, and unnaturally, pushed in the most bitter and hate filled direction for narrative reasons, and lost almost completely in all that is his individual personality.

Um...people have killed people for less than what Sasuke's gone through, so I'm not entirely following you here. He had a happy family, then his older brother took that away from him. The village itself never made an effort to include him in things, etc., he just gained respect due to his Uchiha name and his skills. From the age of what, 7? he's been training to avenge his family. He actually begins to mellow out and realize that there are other things that are important (see him protecting Naruto and Sakura, especially in the fight with Gaara), and twice we see him willing to give up his life to do so (which would negate his life's purpose). Then, right after his shining moment (the fight with Gaara) his brother shows up and mindfucks him again...and what's worse, he treats him as a nuisance and is interested in Naruto. Even after that, it seemed that Kakashi had talked some sense into him, but...we have the Sound 4 encounter. Considering his life's goal was to avenge his family, I'm not sure what you mean by "his personal motivations barely make sense." He lost everything. He sought vengeance.

THEN! After actually achieving his goal, he finds out his brother committed his acts at the behest of the village elders! Knowing how his brother was, remembering his brother crying, blah blah blah, he realizes how messed up Itachi must have felt, and now he seeks vengeance not only for Itachi, but for the clan as a whole, since he believes Tobi's story (which honestly seems to be true outside of the Kyuubi attack being a natural occurrence). His motivations are pretty clear, IMO. They're the clearest thing he has. Then he actually gets the chance to kill one of the ones responsible, and he knows that the village would protect the others...so why not get rid of the village? What have they done for him? Danzou's walking around with tons of sharingan, and he's the freaking Hokage at that point, lol

Sasuke's skill and good looks make sense to a degree regarding his relationships with other people but for people to base their relationship with him on that is so unbelievably shallow.

To be fair, the relationships we saw were with kids 12 and 13 years old, lol...what are you really expecting from children?

And even that is all one directional, being about their relationship to him and never his relationship to them. In order to make meaningful relationships believable such connections need to flow both ways and with Sasuke they almost never do.

He kinda didn't have a family. Naruto didn't have meaningful relationships for quite some time. In fact, Naruto and Sasuke were each other's first meaningful relationship with someone their age, no? And we saw that Sasuke cared a lot for Naruto...but at the end of the day, when he decided to leave the village, he made the choice to move on from that stage in his life.

To be clear I'm not saying that Sasuke doesn't have a personality, relationships, or motivations. He does, but I think those facets of him have become so weak that they no longer allow him to pass as a shell of a believable character, and with him it's been that way since Itachi died.

What do you mean by personality? I'm pretty sure we know Sasuke's personality, it's been roughly the same for a while...it's just that now, his focus is on vengeance, annihilation, etc. rather than still seeking bonds.

And something that scares me in all this is that I'm starting to see similarities to what was done with Sasuke's character and what is currently being done to Naruto's. And I don't like that at all.....

You mean you don't like Uzumaki Jesus? or Christ Naruto? Haha

I have no problem with Sasuke being a "revenge filled asshole" as you put it or a "flawed character". That doesn't make him poorly written, in fact often times such characters are the best written. The problem with Sasuke is that his whole character flows unnaturally and IMO is put together poorly.

I still can't understand what you mean by unnatural.

Let me throw out some characters I think Kishimoto crafted well. Orochimaru, Kisame, Danzou, Raikage, Sasori, and Deidara.

I think I'll have to see why you think these characters were crafted well. I actually think Orochimaru was done VERY well, I just hated that they brought this whole "his parents died" thing into it. Kisame was...he had nothing special of his own until his death. I don't see how he was crafted well. Danzou was done decently considering how short he was on the scene for. I love Raikage, so I'm biased there. Sasori...it felt contrived to me, honestly. All he wanted was someone to embrace him and pass down his art? Then don't freaking kill hundreds of people, hahaha. Deidara also = love, so I can agree there.

The main thing to me is we keep seeing people/creatures who are bad, but then we're supposed to feel sorry for them. I love the unapologetic nature of a Deidara. He knew he was doing asshole shit, but he didn't care. He wanted to express his art. Danzou was never bad, he was just an extremist of a sort. Orochimaru was great until they tried to justify his crap. Just say that he wanted to learn all jutsu and leave it at that. Immortality is trite, but Orochimaru was a great villain, IMO. I think a lot of us would've been more satisfied with him as a final villain than Tobi.

And as for the example of Garra. His character was always coherent. His pain and loneliness turned to rage and caused him to do terrible things until he learned that what he truly longed for was the kind of connection he saw in Naruto. He was flawed as a person but the flow of his character was not flawed; in fact it was well written.

I like Gaara because he's showed more growth than probably anyone else in the manga. However, we've basically seen Sasuke do the same thing, in the opposite direction. Gaara found the connection he wanted, then he strove to become important to others and to build those bonds. He's now probably Naruto's #1 advocate from outside Konoha.

Sasuke, on the other hand, got the connection he wanted, but realized that his goal was more important. And after finding out everything that went down regarding his goal, he's gone in the opposite direction of Gaara. Now he wants to kill everyone in Konoha, similar to how Gaara was all "imma kill you guys for the evulz"

Tl;dr - What about the characters you mentioned made them more believable, etc. than Sasuke?

[ninjabot]

Which begs the question, considering where the Naruto/Sasuke focus has taken the series, was all that stuff really worth it? I ask because I truly am not sure.

That's dependant on the reader's personal opinion. I enjoyed Sasuke in the start, so more Sasuke made me happy. From a monetary standpoint it definately payed off, as he's always been in the top 5 in fan lists (in Japan atleast), meaning he'd sell tons of merchandise and bring in/maintain readers. But if you're a Naruto (character) fan then I guess not.

[Jammin]

*sigh* I'm sorry in advance for the multipost, this beast is going end up hogging an entire forum page. I solemnly promise to avoid doing it again.

Um...people have killed people for less than what Sasuke's gone through, so I'm not entirely following you here. He had a happy family, then his older brother took that away from him. The village itself never made an effort to include him in things, etc., he just gained respect due to his Uchiha name and his skills. From the age of what, 7? he's been training to avenge his family. He actually begins to mellow out and realize that there are other things that are important (see him protecting Naruto and Sakura, especially in the fight with Gaara), and twice we see him willing to give up his life to do so (which would negate his life's purpose). Then, right after his shining moment (the fight with Gaara) his brother shows up and mindfucks him again...and what's worse, he treats him as a nuisance and is interested in Naruto. Even after that, it seemed that Kakashi had talked some sense into him, but...we have the Sound 4 encounter. Considering his life's goal was to avenge his family, I'm not sure what you mean by "his personal motivations barely make sense." He lost everything. He sought vengeance.

THEN! After actually achieving his goal, he finds out his brother committed his acts at the behest of the village elders! Knowing how his brother was, remembering his brother crying, blah blah blah, he realizes how messed up Itachi must have felt, and now he seeks vengeance not only for Itachi, but for the clan as a whole, since he believes Tobi's story (which honestly seems to be true outside of the Kyuubi attack being a natural occurrence). His motivations are pretty clear, IMO. They're the clearest thing he has. Then he actually gets the chance to kill one of the ones responsible, and he knows that the village would protect the others...so why not get rid of the village? What have they done for him? Danzou's walking around with tons of sharingan, and he's the freaking Hokage at that point, lol

Anger does not blind a person to the world around him indefinitely. No matter how great.

Is it understandable that he seeks vengeance for his family? Absolutely. Is it understandable jumping headlong into the deepest darkness he can find all to kill a brother that wasn't the evil person he thought drove him crazy? Again, absolutely. Is it understandable that he spends his entire life pursuing nothing but revenge without regret or doubts about his path? No!

He supposedly spends every day and every hour unflinchingly and unquestionably pursuing his dark path. Think about that. Every minute of every hour of days, of years! Yet, not one hint of introspection. No one moment of "Gee, maybe I should move on with my life...." It's ridiculous that's just not the way human emotion works. If it did humanity would have blown the planet up by now.

To be fair, the relationships we saw were with kids 12 and 13 years old, lol...what are you really expecting from children?

Exactly my point they aren't 12-13 anymore yet most of them still act like they are. Why in gods name would Suigetsu possibly care about Sasuke? Ask yourself that? Or Ino for that matter? He's a handsome douche-bag she knew in middle-school. His relationships to everyone outside of Naruto, Sakura, Karin, and Juugo have all been silly like that.

He kinda didn't have a family. Naruto didn't have meaningful relationships for quite some time. In fact, Naruto and Sasuke were each other's first meaningful relationship with someone their age, no? And we saw that Sasuke cared a lot for Naruto...but at the end of the day, when he decided to leave the village, he made the choice to move on from that stage in his life.

Not having a family doesn't make you emotionally dead to the world. He should still be able to form attachments to people if he isn't a zombie or a robot.

I don't have a problem with the idea of him cutting ties with Konoha either. That's fine. My problem is that people like Suigetsu considering themselves close to Sasuke for no reason. If he treats nobody like a friend, how can they consider themselves his?

What do you mean by personality? I'm pretty sure we know Sasuke's personality, it's been roughly the same for a while...it's just that now, his focus is on vengeance, annihilation, etc. rather than still seeking bonds.

Focus, goals, and ideals are a bit different than personality. I suppose a more accurate term for what I'm talking about would be "Voice".

The identifiable parts of Sasuke that makes him stand out as Sasuke if you push all powers and motivations aside. Regardless of what he is doing or how strong he is there should be Sasuke's base character that are constant, and do not relate to his ideals etc.

Naruto is the easiest example. Strip away all his power and motivations. And put him in any situation and he'll still be easily recognizable as Naruto. With Sasuke if you strip away all his powers and motivations and their would be almost nothing left.

You mean you don't like Uzumaki Jesus? or Christ Naruto? Haha

Ouch! Nothing hurts quite like a good analogy.

I suppose, that would make Sasuke the Uchiha Anti-Christ. God, I hate how well that fits.

I still can't understand what you mean by unnatural.

I mean, "Not natural." If somebody walked up and punched me in the face. Saying "Thank you, sir." would not be a natural reaction for me.

And Sasuke declaring revenge against everybody involved in his clan's destruction as well as a village that was, by his own admission mostly uninvolved, yet seemed to ignore Tobi who confessed to actually helping to carry it out. That would not be what I would call a natural reaction. Nor would that relationship stuff I mention earlier.

I think I'll have to see why you think these characters were crafted well. I actually think Orochimaru was done VERY well, I just hated that they brought this whole "his parents died" thing into it. Kisame was...he had nothing special of his own until his death. I don't see how he was crafted well. Danzou was done decently considering how short he was on the scene for. I love Raikage, so I'm biased there. Sasori...it felt contrived to me, honestly. All he wanted was someone to embrace him and pass down his art? Then don't freaking kill hundreds of people, hahaha. Deidara also = love, so I can agree there.

The main thing to me is we keep seeing people/creatures who are bad, but then we're supposed to feel sorry for them. I love the unapologetic nature of a Deidara. He knew he was doing asshole shit, but he didn't care. He wanted to express his art. Danzou was never bad, he was just an extremist of a sort. Orochimaru was great until they tried to justify his crap. Just say that he wanted to learn all jutsu and leave it at that. Immortality is trite, but Orochimaru was a great villain, IMO. I think a lot of us would've been more satisfied with him as a final villain than Tobi.


I like Gaara because he's showed more growth than probably anyone else in the manga. However, we've basically seen Sasuke do the same thing, in the opposite direction. Gaara found the connection he wanted, then he strove to become important to others and to build those bonds. He's now probably Naruto's #1 advocate from outside Konoha.

Sasuke, on the other hand, got the connection he wanted, but realized that his goal was more important. And after finding out everything that went down regarding his goal, he's gone in the opposite direction of Gaara. Now he wants to kill everyone in Konoha, similar to how Gaara was all "imma kill you guys for the evulz"

Tl;dr - What about the characters you mentioned made them more believable, etc. than Sasuke?

The core thing is how they are put together. To state it as simply as I can it's how well the following things flow together as one.

• "Who they are"
  Sasuke is his ideals at this point. He has nothing else and he is nothing else.
• "Why they fight"
  Sasuke fights for revenge and to share his misery with the world.
• "What they hope to achieve"
  To avenge, redeem, and restore his clan's honor through mass murder.
• "How they relate to the world around them."
  He hates it. Other than that he doesn't relate to it much at all.

That's who he is now and that is who he has been for a very long time. Shallow, uncomplicated, uninteresting, and mechanical in how he devotes himself to his ideal of "Embracing hatred".

He isn't a living evolving character. He's a fixed point. And there is no greater insult to a character than calling them that.

---------- Post added at 11:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

That's dependant on the reader's personal opinion. I enjoyed Sasuke in the start, so more Sasuke made me happy. From a monetary standpoint it definately payed off, as he's always been in the top 5 in fan lists (in Japan atleast), meaning he'd sell tons of merchandise and bring in/maintain readers. But if you're a Naruto (character) fan then I guess not.

The sad thing is that I think Sasuke could have worked for me, flawed as he is. If only they entire narrative didn't focus on the Uchiha's as clan and instead focused on Sasuke as a person. He could have still done bad things and been bent on revenge but it would have given him real substance to back it all up. Drop this destiny, fate, and the power of hatred crap and make him a real character with real goals and plan to realize those goals. .

Have him form his own village, ala Orchimaru. Or have him stage a takeover of the criminal organization of Akatsuki. That could have been great.