Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/8/14 - 9/14/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Naruto 692 by aegon-rokudo , Bleach 595 by BadKarma
New Reply
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 62

Thread: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,143
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character(Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin
    Anger does not blind a person to the world around him indefinitely. No matter how great.

    Is it understandable that he seeks vengeance for his family? Absolutely. Is it understandable jumping headlong into the deepest darkness he can find all to kill a brother that wasn't the evil person he thought drove him crazy? Again, absolutely. Is it understandable that he spends his entire life pursuing nothing but revenge without regret or doubts about his path? No!
    I disagree with this. Anger and pain can certainly blind a person. Drive one mad even. The human psyche can be a very fragile thing, especially at a young age. But besides that, what you said about Sasuke isn't even true. He was aware of the world around him. Sasuke did share a bond with Kakashi, Naruto, and Sakura. He did at one point try to live his life as one of them. But at the end of the day, he just feels that pain and loneliness that they don't have nor understand. Sasuke explains this is what sets him apart from them and why his path is not with them, but with Orochimaru.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin
    Focus, goals, and ideals are a bit different than personality. I suppose a more accurate term for what I'm talking about would be "Voice".

    The identifiable parts of Sasuke that makes him stand out as Sasuke if you push all powers and motivations aside. Regardless of what he is doing or how strong he is there should be Sasuke's base character that are constant, and do not relate to his ideals etc.

    Naruto is the easiest example. Strip away all his power and motivations. And put him in any situation and he'll still be easily recognizable as Naruto. With Sasuke if you strip away all his powers and motivations and their would be almost nothing left.
    Sasuke is arrogant, angry, hateful, cold and calculating. Not having some loud flamboyant personality is not the same as not having a personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin
    I mean, "Not natural." If somebody walked up and punched me in the face. Saying "Thank you, sir." would not be a natural reaction for me.
    Huh??? This doesn't make any sense. If anything Sasuke's vengeful personality is exactly opposite of what you are stating here. If you punched Sasuke in the face, he wouldn't reply with an "unnatural" thank you. He would cut your balls off and feed them to you. Perhaps, I went to far with that, lol. But the point is that his personality is actually much more natural and realistic. Pain often creates anger, and anger often causes people to lash out. This is exactly what Sasuke is now. With Itachi's death and revelation, all he has is the pain of losing his family especially his brother. This causes him to be angry at those who are responsible, the Konoha Elders. Well, with so much pain and anger bottled up, he's pretty much a psycho now who would lash out at pretty anybody. And since we're on the subject of being unnatural, Naruto is the only one who would get punched in the face and say "thank you." Worst goddamn character in the manga. Argh, I hate him so much!!! You see how I'm lashing out in this post because of my anger at Naruto. It's quite natural.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin
    That's who he is now and that is who he has been for a very long time. Shallow, uncomplicated, uninteresting, and mechanical in how he devotes himself to his ideal of "Embracing hatred".

    He isn't a living evolving character. He's a fixed point. And there is no greater insult to a character than calling them that.
    I don't think there is anything wrong with having a consistent character. If anything, I would find it quite unrealistic and out of character for him to have major changes. And he is evolving. Do you seriously not see a difference between a Sasuke who sacrificed himself to save Naruto and Sakura, and the one now? In the beginning, despite his cold attitude, he cared greatly for his fellow teammates. When Itachi returned the first time and Naruto strength challenged his, his frustration in his own lack of strength boiled over into anger towards himself and Naruto. Then, he had the pivotal choice of staying with Konoha or leaving for Orochimaru. Is his bonds with team 7 more important to him than vengeance? Of course, we know his pain and anger led him to choose the latter. Even, after 3 years with Orochimaru though, he still had that sense of humanity when he spared the lives of those 300 fodder nins. Itachi's death was suppose to be the release of all his emotional stress, but with the revelation, all Sasuke has is even more pain and anger of losing his brother. Only then, does he snap and lash out at the world. IMO, his evolution really does illustrate what happens when you let hate and anger fester.
    Last edited by chilibun; December 15, 2011 at 02:40 AM.

  2. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
    Like 4 Member(s) likes this post
  3. #17
    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Country
    Romania
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    13,727
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character(Rant)

    Many cool stuff have been said here....
    I agree somewhat that Sasuke is not that well-written, I mean I can't really compare him to the Sannin for example, or even Pein until he was portrayed as a murderer...in a sense that all these characters were more complete...they had a core character, they had a reason for being the way they were, and they had a goal, something to do, something with a little more imagination than wiping out Konoha...

    I've read that if you take the arrogance, the selfishness away there's nothing really left...but I'm asking why would you take that away from him...the arrogance and selfishness do seem dry a bit, but if you look at the reason for all these traits, then I think we can notice the depth, and the humanity about him...

    So the premise of the character called Sasuke or if you will the core of the character is well written IMO...the Sasuke Saga as it is known was a way to consolidate his ruthlessness and craziness...I think this is the only part where character development might've gone wrong a bit...I mean was it really necessary to consolidate the ruthlessness? We did see him as pretty crazy and cold-blooded the first time Naruto encountered him in Oro's lair...

    From this POV the entire Sasuke Saga could be considered pointless, but in my eyes the Sasuke Saga was meant to show that Sasuke is actually strong enough to act on his commitment...I think it would've been pretty shallow if Sasuke would've done nothing on his path to revenge...

    So the character core and the reasons are there...what's left is the actual goal, which is pretty shabby though, I agree with that...but are we actually there, yet, to see Sasuke come forth with something that has real substance in both avenging and resurrecting his clan? If we are looking at the amount of screen time, and length of the manga, I could say it is about damn time to see Sasuke in such a light...

    But I think Sasuke will receive this, after the meeting with his old team and especially Naruto...so I think we are yet to see a complete Sasuke character, IMO...

    What is bad though, and I absolutely agree with that point...this entire Uchiha Senju mythology doesn't allow Sasuke much room to develop as an individual...the only uniqueness about him is his complicated relationship with Naruto, and even that from Tobi's POV is part of a larger scheme...
    His powers, his hatred, his specific character traits were all included in a big scheme that somehow transcends time...SenjuxUchiha conflict

    ---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sho87 View Post
    Sasuke’s characters leaves a lot to be desired(he could have been more than generic emo rival who is a genius), but he’s written to justify Naruto’s character and goals, to make him the centerpiece of the standard example of hope, friendship, bonds, destiny and hardwork. Nothing Sasuke does is character driven on choice alone, Sasuke blames the hate he’s become and solves all his problems by getting revenge or venturing out to settle some personal score making him one dimensional in his role in the manga.
    That's true, that Sasuke was meant to be an antithesis...I don't see why that's bad though...because Kishimoto wants him to be another hurdle for Naruto to overcome? On this question alone, it's not such a bad thing, because even if Kishimoto has a plan for him, he can still face Sasuke with choices, to make his path to darkness a bit more realistic...

    This is where I don't agree...because Sasuke was indeed confronted with the chance to choose...3 times...first when we slowly got to meet him, in his first fight against Orochimaru...there he chose the path of being strong, to fight and struggle in order to get what he wants...the second choice was when he was presented the opportunity to leave the village to train under Orochimaru...that choice was one of the better written choices, because it wasn't one dimensional, just the revenge...his grudge with Naruto concerning his own lack of power was also added as a reason to leave...
    The third occasion was when Tobi told him the truth about the massacre...the dilemma was even greater then, and I really can't blame him for wanting to go further down the path of revenge

    So the choices were there, it is true that they were not entirely character driven, because there were always people around to influence him and guide him on one path or the other...but isn't that normal in a manga?...characters interact with each other, and influencing each other...

  4. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  5. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Country
    United States
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    804
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character(Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    *sigh* I'm sorry in advance for the multipost, this beast is going end up hogging an entire forum page. I solemnly promise to avoid doing it again.
    Nonsense! Huge posts make the forum better!

    Quote Quote:
    Anger does not blind a person to the world around him indefinitely. No matter how great.
    Except...he wasn't blinded indefinitely.

    Quote Quote:
    Is it understandable that he seeks vengeance for his family? Absolutely. Is it understandable jumping headlong into the deepest darkness he can find all to kill a brother that wasn't the evil person he thought drove him crazy? Again, absolutely. Is it understandable that he spends his entire life pursuing nothing but revenge without regret or doubts about his path? No!
    Of course...he didn't spend his entire life pursuing nothing but revenge. He bonded with Team 7, he acknowledges later that he believed that maybe working with them was his proper path. He's had doubts.

    Quote Quote:
    He supposedly spends every day and every hour unflinchingly and unquestionably pursuing his dark path. Think about that. Every minute of every hour of days, of years! Yet, not one hint of introspection. No one moment of "Gee, maybe I should move on with my life...." It's ridiculous that's just not the way human emotion works. If it did humanity would have blown the planet up by now.
    False.

    Quote Quote:
    Exactly my point they aren't 12-13 anymore yet most of them still act like they are. Why in gods name would Suigetsu possibly care about Sasuke? Ask yourself that? Or Ino for that matter? He's a handsome douche-bag she knew in middle-school. His relationships to everyone outside of Naruto, Sakura, Karin, and Juugo have all been silly like that.
    Regarding his classmates: they have known each other for years. Don't they enter the academy at 6 or something? So they've known each other for 6 years, they're fellow villagers, etc.

    Regarding Suigetsu: We have no idea how they met each other. And...Suigetsu kinda owes his freedom to Sasuke, no? He'd be in that water tank still.

    Regarding Ino: I think Kishi has been trying to express that both Ino and Sakura actually love Sasuke, which would explain a lot if you've ever been in love.

    Regarding Karin: Again, we have no idea how they knew each other during Orochimaru's time, and Sasuke did save her life, lol.

    Regarding Juugo: Considering how he felt about Kimimaro, and considering Sasuke's role as a neo-Kimimaro for him, it makes sense.

    Quote Quote:
    Not having a family doesn't make you emotionally dead to the world. He should still be able to form attachments to people if he isn't a zombie or a robot.
    Which he did.

    Quote Quote:
    I don't have a problem with the idea of him cutting ties with Konoha either. That's fine. My problem is that people like Suigetsu considering themselves close to Sasuke for no reason. If he treats nobody like a friend, how can they consider themselves his?
    Again, he's kinda responsible for Suigetsu's freedom AND for him getting Zabuza's sword, which is apparently important to him.

    Quote Quote:
    Focus, goals, and ideals are a bit different than personality. I suppose a more accurate term for what I'm talking about would be "Voice".

    The identifiable parts of Sasuke that makes him stand out as Sasuke if you push all powers and motivations aside. Regardless of what he is doing or how strong he is there should be Sasuke's base character that are constant, and do not relate to his ideals etc.

    Naruto is the easiest example. Strip away all his power and motivations. And put him in any situation and he'll still be easily recognizable as Naruto. With Sasuke if you strip away all his powers and motivations and their would be almost nothing left.
    Again, you're not really being clear. What is Naruto without his motivation to become Hokage/have people recognize him/become Jesus (now)?

    Sasuke's base character is constant as well: driven, aloof, elitist. Basically "The Rival"

    Quote Quote:
    Ouch! Nothing hurts quite like a good analogy.

    I suppose, that would make Sasuke the Uchiha Anti-Christ. God, I hate how well that fits.
    It really does at this point =/

    Quote Quote:
    I mean, "Not natural." If somebody walked up and punched me in the face. Saying "Thank you, sir." would not be a natural reaction for me.
    If someone killed your entire family, I would think that moving on and accepting that helplessness wouldn't be natural as well, especially when you're the son of the former Police Chief and the brother of one of the most gifted clan members in history. Personally, I think that I'd think I had the potential to avenge them.

    Quote Quote:
    And Sasuke declaring revenge against everybody involved in his clan's destruction as well as a village that was, by his own admission mostly uninvolved, yet seemed to ignore Tobi who confessed to actually helping to carry it out. That would not be what I would call a natural reaction. Nor would that relationship stuff I mention earlier.
    He basically made his point clear during the fight with Kakashi. Even the villagers who had nothing to do with it benefited from it, and Itachi got absolutely nothing for it. Regarding Tobi, Amaterasu didn't work on him, and he's already attacked him twice to no effect. He's probably waiting until he can pull a Sasuke vs. Orochimaru situation.

    I think I addressed the relationships thing earlier.

    Quote Quote:
    The core thing is how they are put together. To state it as simply as I can it's how well the following things flow together as one.
    • "Who they are"
      Sasuke is his ideals at this point. He has nothing else and he is nothing else.
    • "Why they fight"
      Sasuke fights for revenge and to share his misery with the world.
    • "What they hope to achieve"
      To avenge, redeem, and restore his clan's honor through mass murder.
    • "How they relate to the world around them."
      He hates it. Other than that he doesn't relate to it much at all.

    That's who he is now and that is who he has been for a very long time. Shallow, uncomplicated, uninteresting, and mechanical in how he devotes himself to his ideal of "Embracing hatred".
    If by a very long time you mean since he found out Itachi's truth, then sure. Before that, we saw that he was a different person, going so far as to not kill anyone except Itachi.

    Quote Quote:
    He isn't a living evolving character. He's a fixed point. And there is no greater insult to a character than calling them that.
    That'd be because he's gotten to Kishi's presumed endgame for him. He's evolved from the beginning to now though.

    Quote Quote:
    The sad thing is that I think Sasuke could have worked for me, flawed as he is. If only they entire narrative didn't focus on the Uchiha's as clan and instead focused on Sasuke as a person. He could have still done bad things and been bent on revenge but it would have given him real substance to back it all up. Drop this destiny, fate, and the power of hatred crap and make him a real character with real goals and plan to realize those goals. .

    Have him form his own village, ala Orchimaru. Or have him stage a takeover of the criminal organization of Akatsuki. That could have been great.
    I think the issue you're having is that his goals were never large. What does he need a village for? He's not experimenting on people, nor does he need a body to transfer to. He formed his platoon only to deal with distractions; he still wanted Itachi 1v1. His goals have been from the beginning: Kill Itachi and revive his clan. Why does he need a village or to take over Akatsuki to do that?

    I agree with your views on the destiny stuff, and I'm glad you realize that Naruto is going along the same path in the opposite direction. A lot of what made the manga interesting was the whole Naruto vs. Neji thing, where fate wasn't inevitable. They've thrown that away, haha
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

  6. #19
    Intl Translator MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted juUnior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Soul Society
    Country
    Poland
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,150
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character(Rant)

    I pretty much agree with the ppl which posts I 'like' here, and especially what I wanted to write for reply to Jammin's first post here was definitely similar to this:
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot
    As for terribly written, Sasuke was written to hold a certain spot, and he does so well (the yang to Naruto's yin, the anti-thesis). His reasoning for opposing him is okay, his reason for taking a different path perfect, and his anger understandable. It's the stuff outside of that that could use some work (though really, if we saw things like 'what's Sasuke's favorite hobby' or 'how does Sasuke feel about ramen', it'd take away from how serious he is about the destruction of Konoha).

    Anything learned about Sasuke outside of his singular focus would be chalked up to a simple quirk, and wouldn't really matter at all (how many times has Kakashi's porn novels been important to... anything? What about Tsunade's gambling habit and bad luck?) I get that it would've been great to know more about him, but we know plenty for the type of character he's meant to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi
    So while you may think he is flawed, understand he is flawed for a reason, and to me, Sasuke is actually one of most well written characters in the manga because of how human and messed up he is.
    That - I never even once did put Sasuke as a character of Naruto manga as someone with something more to him THAN it was already shown in the manga, and the way Kishi made him to be <I see no reason to gauge characters in that way - if I would, plenty of characters in Narutoverse would be - for me at least - waaay below the level of 'well-written' stuff>. If I would put it in the same context as Jammin, that is:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin
    Sasuke to me is the ultimate example of character that is all style and very little substance.
    then my final note about how well written he is would be - definitely - much lower <maybe to the extent of Jammin's opinion about him> BUT I don't see a reason to gauge how well written he is in this way if thats not the point of his character to begin with. I mean: from the moment Sasuke was introduced with that 'famous' speech of his about killing his bro etc. in Kakashi's introduction to team 7 we KNEW what his goal is or what we can expect from him. To me the rest is to gauge HOW well Kishi has written him about this main point/goal/hate stuff, and thats why I believe he is a well-written character.

    @Jammin, I think you want too much from the way he was written; the way I see it: he would be a completely different person <and if we will see such Sasuke, it will definitely be at the end of the manga if he ever survives as culmination of all of this/conclusion/redeem> Not to mention how well Kishi portrayed him turning from the 'good guy' to 'anti hero' to 'evil guy' <still want to see more now> while constantly remembering 'Sasukes ninja way', that is: his goal/hate stuff <whether he was saving someone from his team <Naruto/Sakura/Karin> or was killing/trying to kill someone from his team <Karin>

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori
    I agree somewhat that Sasuke is not that well-written, I mean I can't really compare him to the Sannin for example, or even Pein until he was portrayed as a murderer...in a sense that all these characters were more complete...they had a core character, they had a reason for being the way they were, and they had a goal, something to do, something with a little more imagination than wiping out Konoha...
    Well, Sasuke also has ALL these stuff: he has a 'core' character driven by hatred/his goal <whichever it is, connected with vengeance>, he has a reason for being the way he is <Uchiha clan annihilation/Uchiha Itachi sacirifice knowledge>, and he has a goal, something to do, something which is not very different from any other characters goal <in general sense, driven by hatred/vengeance, his overall theme>. I mean: I pretty much understand him and why he wants to do it.
    Now, even if I like Nagato/Pain or Sannins, I cannot say that I think they are better wirtten than Sasuke because they arent' to me <on the other hand I like them more than Sasuke but that doesn't mean I have to say they are well executed> From the Sannins only Jiraiya from the very beginning to the end was well-written character, Orochimaru <for how much I like him> was just ANNIHILATED as a character by Kishi at 'the end' <assuming he doesn't come back in any way because that would depend on new approach and would likely change>, and Tsunade.. well, almost anybody would agree that her execution <at least on fighting stuff> is pure as hell.. does it mean I don't like her? Hell, no, I like her probably more than Sasuke BUT it doesn't change a fact that she is in some ways purely written. <yes, I like fighting in fighting shounens so I also consider this stuff as well.. maybe its just me xP>
    Pain/Nagato is well-written character to me as well, though some parts of the execution of Nagato's conversion is not great.

    About Gaara discussion: Jammin, you made me realize he is more 'well-written' character than I already thought about him, and in many ways the guy really, really resembles Sasuke <though, like you said, both are 'vice versa' of each other: Sasuke, even though driven by his goal, was a 'good guy' while Gaara, even though driven by his goal, was a 'bad guy' = Sasuke became 'bad guy' while Gaara became 'good guy' <terms good guy/bad guy are just 'for fun', we know its always grey somewhere there in this manga, but I wanted to make the explanation simple>

    I'm open for discussion in details
    ..:: I LoVe I's ::.. [Naruto] Share your thoughts on: Boobies

  7. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  8. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Country
    United States
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    804
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Gaara really may be the most well-written character in Naruto. At the very least, he is the the one with the most development. Looking at him during the Chuunin exam vs. him now...you wouldn't even think they were the same person.
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

  9. #21
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    Romania
    Age
    30
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,006
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    You know i will never understand why Sasuke, after finaly fiding people he cared about and was ready to die for would cut those connections and be in that hell again...
    I don't understand how can he be that stupid to belive that killing Itachi would somehow erase that pain... If he never had anybody ... Well ok that would make sense but he had great friends that where ready to die for him....

    Damn i miss the "good" Sasuke.... He had great chemistry with Naruto (not in gay way)...

  10. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Country
    United States
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    804
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    He pretty much explained it himself, no? He's an avenger. I see people saying he should've just stayed with Naruto, etc. and had a good time in Konoha...he's supposed to do this while knowing his family's murderer is alive and well (well, not exactly "well," but yea...)?

    I have 3 younger siblings, two brothers and a sister. I've gotten in fights with other people over people hitting my brothers or trying to hook up with my sister. If older brothers are willing to do that for siblings...if parents are willing to go to jail for their children...why is it odd that Sasuke would rather leave the village to get stronger and kill his family's murderer? Not only that, but he realized that there was someone else behind the tragedy as well...so he clearly wanted vengeance for his family, and it's not as if he thought about it irrationally.
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

  11. Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked this post
  12. #23
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,182
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    I have an identical twin brother, and I remember getting into a fist-fight with him in the locker room back in highschool. Immediately after, some random kid was making jokes about it, so we turned and jumped his ass not 2 minutes later. I just think it's funny no matter how angry we are with eachother, we're ready to defend eachother's honor at the drop of a hat.

    That said, if I knew someone was responsible for my family's death I'd go Dog the Bounty Hunter on them too. If it was my brother who did it... I don't know. My brother is worth alot to me, and if he was the only family I had left, I think I'd find a way to punish him without leaving me alone in the world. Even if I didn't become a murderous monster, I still would've become an Avenger and would care less about alienating my friends than I do about the eventual reunion between he and I. Granted, I doubt I'd be willing to kill people that get in the way of that vengeance, but Sasuke has the right to act a little out of the ordinary. It's shounen, lol.

    It hasn't been confirmed yet, but I'm thoroughly convinced Sasuke's hatred is of a supernatural nature, and it's not just about controlling his own human emotions. Hell, look at what it took for Naruto to control his hatred. It was personified as a doppleganger. Sasuke's actually manifests as a unique, cold aura. When Tobi mentioned him shouldering the hatred of the entire Uchiha clan, that could possibly be a literal statement. He could have the combined hatred of an entire clan corroding his subconscious. Though... no one wants that to be the case because it would give Sasuke an easy-out.

  13. #24
    Artists of MH 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shinsengumi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Constantinopolis
    Country
    Turkey
    Age
    28
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    sasuke's character is already justified . his older brother massaccared his entire clan before his eyes , then came back to village and further mind-raped him . this is more than enough reason for someone to turn into a psycho
    im not saying he is a psycho , im just saying i wouldnt blame him if he became one

    look at oro for example , just because his parents died he became obsessed with mortality/immortality and turned into a big boss villian . how is that justified and sasuke is not ?

  14. #25
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    Romania
    Age
    30
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,006
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by UchihaHunter View Post
    He pretty much explained it himself, no? He's an avenger. I see people saying he should've just stayed with Naruto, etc. and had a good time in Konoha...he's supposed to do this while knowing his family's murderer is alive and well (well, not exactly "well," but yea...)?

    I have 3 younger siblings, two brothers and a sister. I've gotten in fights with other people over people hitting my brothers or trying to hook up with my sister. If older brothers are willing to do that for siblings...if parents are willing to go to jail for their children...why is it odd that Sasuke would rather leave the village to get stronger and kill his family's murderer? Not only that, but he realized that there was someone else behind the tragedy as well...so he clearly wanted vengeance for his family, and it's not as if he thought about it irrationally.
    That does not make sense to me. His "explanation"also does not make sense to me. What is more his curent actions also make no bloody sense to me. After finding out what you're brother whent trough and you do this? Nop, makes no sense to me at all.

  15. #26
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,182
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    ^ You don't understand wanting to punish the people responsible for setting your brother down a road that resulted in the murder of your family, and him faking his hatred for you and orchestrating his murder by your hand, after making your life miserable aswell, and then multiplying your pain when you find out that you killed the only person in the world still alive that truly loved you?

    You don't understand that? Really?

  16. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
    Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  17. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Country
    United States
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    804
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    ^ If it's not an action that Jesus would do, then xXan can't understand it.

    Basically, because of the village elders...

    Sasuke had no family to speak of after the age of what, 7 or 8?

    Sasuke was mindraped...once on the day of the massacre, then again when Itachi showed up

    Sasuke was targeted by Orochimaru (if the massacre doesn't happen, one could argue that Oro would find another Uchiha...although, Sasuke being the youngest might have still caused Oro to focus on Sasuke.)

    Itachi had to participate in the massacre of his family, had to carry the burden of being a criminal, and wasn't able to spend any time with the only family member important enough to him that he didn't kill him

    Sasuke killed his brother

    Sasuke ended up leaving the village (no massacre, no reason for vengeance, no reason for Sasuke to leave), resulting in him losing the friends that he had made in Naruto and Sakura (we see later that he still thought of them)

    There's plenty of reasons for him to want to kill the village elders, and considering that the village itself did nothing but benefit from the sacrifice his brother had made, it's understandable why he's angry with them as well...

    Basically, to Sasuke, his brother sacrificed everything to give the village what they wanted, and he never got anything for it...other than a designation as an S-rank criminal. To him the village got all of the pros of Itachi's sacrifice, yet none of the cons. He wants them to feel what he felt, by taking everything away.

    Btw, what exactly would you understand Sasuke doing? Choosing to protect Konoha because that's what his brother wanted? Despite what they put him through?

    Side note: Danzou and the two elders knew, but no one told Tsunade about it when she came to power? So you can keep info from your Kage like that? That shit cray.

    ---------- Post added at 01:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    All i will say here is that Sasuke is fully accountable for his actions but i can understand why he is doing them. Does he deserves a friend like Naruto and getting saved and redeemed in the end? Sure he does.
    How did you say this not even a full week ago, and then later say that his current actions "make no bloody sense" to you?
    Last edited by UchihaHunter; December 19, 2011 at 01:12 AM.
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

  18. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
    Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  19. #28
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    Romania
    Age
    30
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,006
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    ^ You don't understand wanting to punish the people responsible for setting your brother down a road that resulted in the murder of your family, and him faking his hatred for you and orchestrating his murder by your hand, after making your life miserable aswell, and then multiplying your pain when you find out that you killed the only person in the world still alive that truly loved you?

    You don't understand that? Really?
    You misunderstood me. I can understand and comprehend the need for vengence, revange, hate, justice and so on. What i can't understand is how he is acting.
    You yourself stated above that you have a brother. Let's asume you have 1 more (Naruto in manga and you love him just as much as you're real one). Then for whatever reason you're real brother kills your entire family aside for the other brother. Then you need revange and this other(Naruto) brother get's in the way and tries to stop you from killing you're real brother. Then you decide to kill him/spare him on whim(as Sasuke put it).

    Another example. Some random guy kills you're entire family aside from that brother (real one). Now imagine him tring to save you from yourself (like Naruto) and you tring to kill him because ...err i don't even know why... For a whim aparently. Can you really wrap you're mind around that? Would you kill him for that or comprehend it? I sure as hell can't and i don't even got a brother.

    I could understand Sasuke tring to kill Itachi even considering how much he loved him but killing his "new famility" that is only tring to save him (expecialy Naruto) to achive that goal i just can't do. If Sasuke would try to kill Itachi at first and then the elders but would never even imagine killing Naruto, Saskura, Kakashi then that would make sense to me (well not so much after finding out about Itachi).

    Then after all of that he finds out Itachi was actualy protecting him and loving him and what not and he decides to go against all that Itachi wanted for him and what Itachi loved and destroy it in his Name?!?!?! Makes no bloody sense to me man. He is even "cheering" to Itachi after he killed Danzou. The only thing i can say its that he is completly insane and no rational person can understand what insane people think. He could just keep Itachi out of the equation completly and never stated he is doing it for him/in his name(and the rest of his clan of course).

    I am not even saying this does not make sense to anybody, just to me.

    PS. this is wrong:
    Quote Quote:
    and then multiplying your pain when you find out that you killed the only person in the world still alive that truly loved you
    Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi just to name some that would have died for Sasuke, Naruto is curently stating he is ready to die with Sasuke just to be able to save him. If that is not truly loving him i don't know what is. What i can't understand is why would Sasuke be ok with killing Naruto, its like killing Itachi all over again but this time knowing what is what.

    I wonder what would Sasuke state if he somehow found out how much faith Itachi put in Naruto.

    @UchihaHunter


    Ah more smug and bait posts from you... What exacly is you're problem with my faith?
    I would apreciate if you keep stuff like that out of you're posts as i faill to see how insulting my belief is helping you get whatever you need to state across(also yes that was insulting in case you belived it was not).
    Now if you whant to discuss stuff civilized i am all for that. I don't know what people around here think about me but i never tried to shove my faith down anybody's throat or act like a zealot.

    Quote Quote:
    How did you say this not even a full week ago, and then later say that his current actions "make no bloody sense" to you?
    Diferent things. I can understand his goal, get revange for his pain and for his family but i can't understand how he is going about in achiving that goal.
    Last edited by xXan; December 19, 2011 at 06:03 AM.

  20. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  21. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,143
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    @xXan

    I think you fail to realize that Sasuke's bond with Itachi is much greater than that with Naruto. Also, Sasuke did at one point care for team 7, but he clearly does not care about them as much as they cared for him. The feelings were not mutual.

    On a somewhat related note, I hate how people keep referring to Naruto wanting to "save" Sasuke as some ultimate act of love. Its not. As far as I'm concerned, all Naruto is doing is trying to impose his own will onto others. God forbid if somebody doesn't share the same views as you do. Sasuke doesn't want nor needs to be saved. I don't think there is anything ethically wrong with Sasuke's initial pursuit of vengeance when it was just Itachi, because it was justified. He's chosen his own path. Learn to respect it. A real friend would have been more supportive, lulz. Naruto's just an obsessive controlling bitch. Somebody needs to save him from himself. Current Sasuke has gone bonkers though.

  22. #30
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,182
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan
    I could understand Sasuke tring to kill Itachi even considering how much he loved him but killing his "new famility" that is only tring to save him (expecialy Naruto) to achive that goal i just can't do. If Sasuke would try to kill Itachi at first and then the elders but would never even imagine killing Naruto, Saskura, Kakashi then that would make sense to me (well not so much after finding out about Itachi).

    You forget that Sasuke more than anyone knew that the difference between Itachi's strength and his own was like comparing heaven and earth. He told him the only way he'd have the strength to kill him is if he had the same eyes as him (Mangekyou) and he also told him how to get it. At that point Sasuke could either not try to kill Naruto, fight Itachi, and die, or he could kill Naruto, gain the MS, fight Itachi, and then win. That's the thought that was going through his head.

    Likewise, I think you're putting too much faith in Naruto and Sasuke's friendship. They were never so close that Sasuke would cry over him, and him risking his life to save him against Haku took a back seat when he started to envy Naruto's strength (because unlike the readers, Sasuke didn't know that Naruto was only as strong as he was because of the Kyuubi, otherwise he wouldn't have taken it so hard). Sasuke may have liked Naruto a bit, but he also wanted to kick his ass. Itachi just gave him an excuse to do so without holding back.

    I can't say I would've tried to kill a pseudo friend/aquaintance to gain the strength to avenge my family, but then I didn't experience the hell Sasuke experienced as a child, so I can't honestly say that with certainty. Tragedy changes people.

New Reply
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts