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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
I disagree with this. Anger and pain can certainly blind a person. Drive one mad even. The human psyche can be a very fragile thing, especially at a young age. But besides that, what you said about Sasuke isn't even true. He was aware of the world around him. Sasuke did share a bond with Kakashi, Naruto, and Sakura. He did at one point try to live his life as one of them. But at the end of the day, he just feels that pain and loneliness that they don't have nor understand. Sasuke explains this is what sets him apart from them and why his path is not with them, but with Orochimaru.Originally Posted by Jammin
Sasuke is arrogant, angry, hateful, cold and calculating. Not having some loud flamboyant personality is not the same as not having a personality.Originally Posted by Jammin
Huh??? This doesn't make any sense. If anything Sasuke's vengeful personality is exactly opposite of what you are stating here. If you punched Sasuke in the face, he wouldn't reply with an "unnatural" thank you. He would cut your balls off and feed them to you. Perhaps, I went to far with that, lol. But the point is that his personality is actually much more natural and realistic. Pain often creates anger, and anger often causes people to lash out. This is exactly what Sasuke is now. With Itachi's death and revelation, all he has is the pain of losing his family especially his brother. This causes him to be angry at those who are responsible, the Konoha Elders. Well, with so much pain and anger bottled up, he's pretty much a psycho now who would lash out at pretty anybody. And since we're on the subject of being unnatural, Naruto is the only one who would get punched in the face and say "thank you." Worst goddamn character in the manga. Argh, I hate him so much!!! You see how I'm lashing out in this post because of my anger at Naruto. It's quite natural.Originally Posted by Jammin
I don't think there is anything wrong with having a consistent character. If anything, I would find it quite unrealistic and out of character for him to have major changes. And he is evolving. Do you seriously not see a difference between a Sasuke who sacrificed himself to save Naruto and Sakura, and the one now? In the beginning, despite his cold attitude, he cared greatly for his fellow teammates. When Itachi returned the first time and Naruto strength challenged his, his frustration in his own lack of strength boiled over into anger towards himself and Naruto. Then, he had the pivotal choice of staying with Konoha or leaving for Orochimaru. Is his bonds with team 7 more important to him than vengeance? Of course, we know his pain and anger led him to choose the latter. Even, after 3 years with Orochimaru though, he still had that sense of humanity when he spared the lives of those 300 fodder nins. Itachi's death was suppose to be the release of all his emotional stress, but with the revelation, all Sasuke has is even more pain and anger of losing his brother. Only then, does he snap and lash out at the world. IMO, his evolution really does illustrate what happens when you let hate and anger fester.Originally Posted by Jammin
Last edited by chilibun; December 15, 2011 at 02:40 AM.
Many cool stuff have been said here....
I agree somewhat that Sasuke is not that well-written, I mean I can't really compare him to the Sannin for example, or even Pein until he was portrayed as a murderer...in a sense that all these characters were more complete...they had a core character, they had a reason for being the way they were, and they had a goal, something to do, something with a little more imagination than wiping out Konoha...
I've read that if you take the arrogance, the selfishness away there's nothing really left...but I'm asking why would you take that away from him...the arrogance and selfishness do seem dry a bit, but if you look at the reason for all these traits, then I think we can notice the depth, and the humanity about him...
So the premise of the character called Sasuke or if you will the core of the character is well written IMO...the Sasuke Saga as it is known was a way to consolidate his ruthlessness and craziness...I think this is the only part where character development might've gone wrong a bit...I mean was it really necessary to consolidate the ruthlessness? We did see him as pretty crazy and cold-blooded the first time Naruto encountered him in Oro's lair...
From this POV the entire Sasuke Saga could be considered pointless, but in my eyes the Sasuke Saga was meant to show that Sasuke is actually strong enough to act on his commitment...I think it would've been pretty shallow if Sasuke would've done nothing on his path to revenge...
So the character core and the reasons are there...what's left is the actual goal, which is pretty shabby though, I agree with that...but are we actually there, yet, to see Sasuke come forth with something that has real substance in both avenging and resurrecting his clan? If we are looking at the amount of screen time, and length of the manga, I could say it is about damn time to see Sasuke in such a light...
But I think Sasuke will receive this, after the meeting with his old team and especially Naruto...so I think we are yet to see a complete Sasuke character, IMO...
What is bad though, and I absolutely agree with that point...this entire Uchiha Senju mythology doesn't allow Sasuke much room to develop as an individual...the only uniqueness about him is his complicated relationship with Naruto, and even that from Tobi's POV is part of a larger scheme...
His powers, his hatred, his specific character traits were all included in a big scheme that somehow transcends time...SenjuxUchiha conflict
---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 PM ----------
This is where I don't agree...because Sasuke was indeed confronted with the chance to choose...3 times...first when we slowly got to meet him, in his first fight against Orochimaru...there he chose the path of being strong, to fight and struggle in order to get what he wants...the second choice was when he was presented the opportunity to leave the village to train under Orochimaru...that choice was one of the better written choices, because it wasn't one dimensional, just the revenge...his grudge with Naruto concerning his own lack of power was also added as a reason to leave...
The third occasion was when Tobi told him the truth about the massacre...the dilemma was even greater then, and I really can't blame him for wanting to go further down the path of revenge
So the choices were there, it is true that they were not entirely character driven, because there were always people around to influence him and guide him on one path or the other...but isn't that normal in a manga?...characters interact with each other, and influencing each other...
Except...he wasn't blinded indefinitely.Quote:
Of course...he didn't spend his entire life pursuing nothing but revenge. He bonded with Team 7, he acknowledges later that he believed that maybe working with them was his proper path. He's had doubts.Quote:
Regarding his classmates: they have known each other for years. Don't they enter the academy at 6 or something? So they've known each other for 6 years, they're fellow villagers, etc.Quote:
Regarding Suigetsu: We have no idea how they met each other. And...Suigetsu kinda owes his freedom to Sasuke, no? He'd be in that water tank still.
Regarding Ino: I think Kishi has been trying to express that both Ino and Sakura actually love Sasuke, which would explain a lot if you've ever been in love.
Regarding Karin: Again, we have no idea how they knew each other during Orochimaru's time, and Sasuke did save her life, lol.
Regarding Juugo: Considering how he felt about Kimimaro, and considering Sasuke's role as a neo-Kimimaro for him, it makes sense.
Which he did.Quote:
Again, he's kinda responsible for Suigetsu's freedom AND for him getting Zabuza's sword, which is apparently important to him.Quote:
Again, you're not really being clear. What is Naruto without his motivation to become Hokage/have people recognize him/become Jesus (now)?Quote:
Sasuke's base character is constant as well: driven, aloof, elitist. Basically "The Rival"
It really does at this point =/Quote:
If someone killed your entire family, I would think that moving on and accepting that helplessness wouldn't be natural as well, especially when you're the son of the former Police Chief and the brother of one of the most gifted clan members in history. Personally, I think that I'd think I had the potential to avenge them.Quote:
He basically made his point clear during the fight with Kakashi. Even the villagers who had nothing to do with it benefited from it, and Itachi got absolutely nothing for it. Regarding Tobi, Amaterasu didn't work on him, and he's already attacked him twice to no effect. He's probably waiting until he can pull a Sasuke vs. Orochimaru situation.Quote:
I think I addressed the relationships thing earlier.
If by a very long time you mean since he found out Itachi's truth, then sure. Before that, we saw that he was a different person, going so far as to not kill anyone except Itachi.Quote:
That'd be because he's gotten to Kishi's presumed endgame for him. He's evolved from the beginning to now though.Quote:
I think the issue you're having is that his goals were never large. What does he need a village for? He's not experimenting on people, nor does he need a body to transfer to. He formed his platoon only to deal with distractions; he still wanted Itachi 1v1. His goals have been from the beginning: Kill Itachi and revive his clan. Why does he need a village or to take over Akatsuki to do that?Quote:
I agree with your views on the destiny stuff, and I'm glad you realize that Naruto is going along the same path in the opposite direction. A lot of what made the manga interesting was the whole Naruto vs. Neji thing, where fate wasn't inevitable. They've thrown that away, haha
I pretty much agree with the ppl which posts I 'like' here, and especially what I wanted to write for reply to Jammin's first post here was definitely similar to this:
Originally Posted by ninjabotThat - I never even once did put Sasuke as a character of Naruto manga as someone with something more to him THAN it was already shown in the manga, and the way Kishi made him to be <I see no reason to gauge characters in that way - if I would, plenty of characters in Narutoverse would be - for me at least - waaay below the level of 'well-written' stuff>. If I would put it in the same context as Jammin, that is:Originally Posted by Delbi
then my final note about how well written he is would be - definitely - much lower <maybe to the extent of Jammin's opinion about him> BUT I don't see a reason to gauge how well written he is in this way if thats not the point of his character to begin with. I mean: from the moment Sasuke was introduced with that 'famous' speech of his about killing his bro etc. in Kakashi's introduction to team 7 we KNEW what his goal is or what we can expect from him. To me the rest is to gauge HOW well Kishi has written him about this main point/goal/hate stuff, and thats why I believe he is a well-written character.Originally Posted by Jammin
@Jammin, I think you want too much from the way he was written; the way I see it: he would be a completely different person <and if we will see such Sasuke, it will definitely be at the end of the manga if he ever survives as culmination of all of this/conclusion/redeem> Not to mention how well Kishi portrayed him turning from the 'good guy' to 'anti hero' to 'evil guy' <still want to see more now> while constantly remembering 'Sasukes ninja way', that is: his goal/hate stuff <whether he was saving someone from his team <Naruto/Sakura/Karin> or was killing/trying to kill someone from his team <Karin>
Well, Sasuke also has ALL these stuff: he has a 'core' character driven by hatred/his goal <whichever it is, connected with vengeance>, he has a reason for being the way he is <Uchiha clan annihilation/Uchiha Itachi sacirifice knowledge>, and he has a goal, something to do, something which is not very different from any other characters goal <in general sense, driven by hatred/vengeance, his overall theme>. I mean: I pretty much understand him and why he wants to do it.Originally Posted by benelori
Now, even if I like Nagato/Pain or Sannins, I cannot say that I think they are better wirtten than Sasuke because they arent' to me <on the other hand I like them more than Sasuke but that doesn't mean I have to say they are well executed> From the Sannins only Jiraiya from the very beginning to the end was well-written character, Orochimaru <for how much I like him> was just ANNIHILATED as a character by Kishi at 'the end' <assuming he doesn't come back in any way because that would depend on new approach and would likely change>, and Tsunade.. well, almost anybody would agree that her execution <at least on fighting stuff> is pure as hell.. does it mean I don't like her? Hell, no, I like her probably more than Sasuke BUT it doesn't change a fact that she is in some ways purely written. <yes, I like fighting in fighting shounens so I also consider this stuff as well.. maybe its just me xP>
Pain/Nagato is well-written character to me as well, though some parts of the execution of Nagato's conversion is not great.
About Gaara discussion: Jammin, you made me realize he is more 'well-written' character than I already thought about him, and in many ways the guy really, really resembles Sasuke <though, like you said, both are 'vice versa' of each other: Sasuke, even though driven by his goal, was a 'good guy' while Gaara, even though driven by his goal, was a 'bad guy' = Sasuke became 'bad guy' while Gaara became 'good guy' <terms good guy/bad guy are just 'for fun', we know its always grey somewhere there in this manga, but I wanted to make the explanation simple>
I'm open for discussion in details
Gaara really may be the most well-written character in Naruto. At the very least, he is the the one with the most development. Looking at him during the Chuunin exam vs. him now...you wouldn't even think they were the same person.
You know i will never understand why Sasuke, after finaly fiding people he cared about and was ready to die for would cut those connections and be in that hell again...
I don't understand how can he be that stupid to belive that killing Itachi would somehow erase that pain... If he never had anybody ... Well ok that would make sense but he had great friends that where ready to die for him....
Damn i miss the "good" Sasuke.... He had great chemistry with Naruto (not in gay way)...
He pretty much explained it himself, no? He's an avenger. I see people saying he should've just stayed with Naruto, etc. and had a good time in Konoha...he's supposed to do this while knowing his family's murderer is alive and well (well, not exactly "well," but yea...)?
I have 3 younger siblings, two brothers and a sister. I've gotten in fights with other people over people hitting my brothers or trying to hook up with my sister. If older brothers are willing to do that for siblings...if parents are willing to go to jail for their children...why is it odd that Sasuke would rather leave the village to get stronger and kill his family's murderer? Not only that, but he realized that there was someone else behind the tragedy as well...so he clearly wanted vengeance for his family, and it's not as if he thought about it irrationally.
I have an identical twin brother, and I remember getting into a fist-fight with him in the locker room back in highschool. Immediately after, some random kid was making jokes about it, so we turned and jumped his ass not 2 minutes later. I just think it's funny no matter how angry we are with eachother, we're ready to defend eachother's honor at the drop of a hat.
That said, if I knew someone was responsible for my family's death I'd go Dog the Bounty Hunter on them too. If it was my brother who did it... I don't know. My brother is worth alot to me, and if he was the only family I had left, I think I'd find a way to punish him without leaving me alone in the world. Even if I didn't become a murderous monster, I still would've become an Avenger and would care less about alienating my friends than I do about the eventual reunion between he and I. Granted, I doubt I'd be willing to kill people that get in the way of that vengeance, but Sasuke has the right to act a little out of the ordinary. It's shounen, lol.
It hasn't been confirmed yet, but I'm thoroughly convinced Sasuke's hatred is of a supernatural nature, and it's not just about controlling his own human emotions. Hell, look at what it took for Naruto to control his hatred. It was personified as a doppleganger. Sasuke's actually manifests as a unique, cold aura. When Tobi mentioned him shouldering the hatred of the entire Uchiha clan, that could possibly be a literal statement. He could have the combined hatred of an entire clan corroding his subconscious. Though... no one wants that to be the case because it would give Sasuke an easy-out.
sasuke's character is already justified . his older brother massaccared his entire clan before his eyes , then came back to village and further mind-raped him . this is more than enough reason for someone to turn into a psycho
im not saying he is a psycho , im just saying i wouldnt blame him if he became one
look at oro for example , just because his parents died he became obsessed with mortality/immortality and turned into a big boss villian . how is that justified and sasuke is not ?
^ You don't understand wanting to punish the people responsible for setting your brother down a road that resulted in the murder of your family, and him faking his hatred for you and orchestrating his murder by your hand, after making your life miserable aswell, and then multiplying your pain when you find out that you killed the only person in the world still alive that truly loved you?
You don't understand that? Really?
^ If it's not an action that Jesus would do, then xXan can't understand it.
Basically, because of the village elders...
Sasuke had no family to speak of after the age of what, 7 or 8?
Sasuke was mindraped...once on the day of the massacre, then again when Itachi showed up
Sasuke was targeted by Orochimaru (if the massacre doesn't happen, one could argue that Oro would find another Uchiha...although, Sasuke being the youngest might have still caused Oro to focus on Sasuke.)
Itachi had to participate in the massacre of his family, had to carry the burden of being a criminal, and wasn't able to spend any time with the only family member important enough to him that he didn't kill him
Sasuke killed his brother
Sasuke ended up leaving the village (no massacre, no reason for vengeance, no reason for Sasuke to leave), resulting in him losing the friends that he had made in Naruto and Sakura (we see later that he still thought of them)
There's plenty of reasons for him to want to kill the village elders, and considering that the village itself did nothing but benefit from the sacrifice his brother had made, it's understandable why he's angry with them as well...
Basically, to Sasuke, his brother sacrificed everything to give the village what they wanted, and he never got anything for it...other than a designation as an S-rank criminal. To him the village got all of the pros of Itachi's sacrifice, yet none of the cons. He wants them to feel what he felt, by taking everything away.
Btw, what exactly would you understand Sasuke doing? Choosing to protect Konoha because that's what his brother wanted? Despite what they put him through?
Side note: Danzou and the two elders knew, but no one told Tsunade about it when she came to power? So you can keep info from your Kage like that? That shit cray.
---------- Post added at 01:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 AM ----------
Last edited by UchihaHunter; December 19, 2011 at 01:12 AM.
You yourself stated above that you have a brother. Let's asume you have 1 more (Naruto in manga and you love him just as much as you're real one). Then for whatever reason you're real brother kills your entire family aside for the other brother. Then you need revange and this other(Naruto) brother get's in the way and tries to stop you from killing you're real brother. Then you decide to kill him/spare him on whim(as Sasuke put it).
Another example. Some random guy kills you're entire family aside from that brother (real one). Now imagine him tring to save you from yourself (like Naruto) and you tring to kill him because ...err i don't even know why... For a whim aparently. Can you really wrap you're mind around that? Would you kill him for that or comprehend it? I sure as hell can't and i don't even got a brother.
I could understand Sasuke tring to kill Itachi even considering how much he loved him but killing his "new famility" that is only tring to save him (expecialy Naruto) to achive that goal i just can't do. If Sasuke would try to kill Itachi at first and then the elders but would never even imagine killing Naruto, Saskura, Kakashi then that would make sense to me (well not so much after finding out about Itachi).
Then after all of that he finds out Itachi was actualy protecting him and loving him and what not and he decides to go against all that Itachi wanted for him and what Itachi loved and destroy it in his Name?!?!?! Makes no bloody sense to me man. He is even "cheering" to Itachi after he killed Danzou. The only thing i can say its that he is completly insane and no rational person can understand what insane people think. He could just keep Itachi out of the equation completly and never stated he is doing it for him/in his name(and the rest of his clan of course).
I am not even saying this does not make sense to anybody, just to me.
PS. this is wrong:
Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi just to name some that would have died for Sasuke, Naruto is curently stating he is ready to die with Sasuke just to be able to save him. If that is not truly loving him i don't know what is. What i can't understand is why would Sasuke be ok with killing Naruto, its like killing Itachi all over again but this time knowing what is what.Quote:
I wonder what would Sasuke state if he somehow found out how much faith Itachi put in Naruto.
Ah more smug and bait posts from you... What exacly is you're problem with my faith?
I would apreciate if you keep stuff like that out of you're posts as i faill to see how insulting my belief is helping you get whatever you need to state across(also yes that was insulting in case you belived it was not).
Now if you whant to discuss stuff civilized i am all for that. I don't know what people around here think about me but i never tried to shove my faith down anybody's throat or act like a zealot.
Diferent things. I can understand his goal, get revange for his pain and for his family but i can't understand how he is going about in achiving that goal.Quote:
Last edited by xXan; December 19, 2011 at 06:03 AM.
I think you fail to realize that Sasuke's bond with Itachi is much greater than that with Naruto. Also, Sasuke did at one point care for team 7, but he clearly does not care about them as much as they cared for him. The feelings were not mutual.
On a somewhat related note, I hate how people keep referring to Naruto wanting to "save" Sasuke as some ultimate act of love. Its not. As far as I'm concerned, all Naruto is doing is trying to impose his own will onto others. God forbid if somebody doesn't share the same views as you do. Sasuke doesn't want nor needs to be saved. I don't think there is anything ethically wrong with Sasuke's initial pursuit of vengeance when it was just Itachi, because it was justified. He's chosen his own path. Learn to respect it. A real friend would have been more supportive, lulz. Naruto's just an obsessive controlling bitch. Somebody needs to save him from himself. Current Sasuke has gone bonkers though.
Originally Posted by xXan
You forget that Sasuke more than anyone knew that the difference between Itachi's strength and his own was like comparing heaven and earth. He told him the only way he'd have the strength to kill him is if he had the same eyes as him (Mangekyou) and he also told him how to get it. At that point Sasuke could either not try to kill Naruto, fight Itachi, and die, or he could kill Naruto, gain the MS, fight Itachi, and then win. That's the thought that was going through his head.
Likewise, I think you're putting too much faith in Naruto and Sasuke's friendship. They were never so close that Sasuke would cry over him, and him risking his life to save him against Haku took a back seat when he started to envy Naruto's strength (because unlike the readers, Sasuke didn't know that Naruto was only as strong as he was because of the Kyuubi, otherwise he wouldn't have taken it so hard). Sasuke may have liked Naruto a bit, but he also wanted to kick his ass. Itachi just gave him an excuse to do so without holding back.
I can't say I would've tried to kill a pseudo friend/aquaintance to gain the strength to avenge my family, but then I didn't experience the hell Sasuke experienced as a child, so I can't honestly say that with certainty. Tragedy changes people.