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Thread: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

  1. #31
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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Another example. Some random guy kills you're entire family aside from that brother (real one). Now imagine him tring to save you from yourself (like Naruto) and you tring to kill him because ...err i don't even know why... For a whim aparently. Can you really wrap you're mind around that? Would you kill him for that or comprehend it? I sure as hell can't and i don't even got a brother.
    I can wrap my mind around beating Naruto when he's trying to stop me from achieving my goal (Part I). We can see that Sasuke felt as though he had made little progress in his skill while staying at Konoha. He primarily left to improve his chances at killing Itachi.

    As far as now, once again Naruto is trying to stop him from achieving his goals. What's more, Naruto has already said he's ready to die to stop Sasuke and "save him." So...considering he's made his goals and Naruto continuously attempts to stop him from achieving them, sure, I can understand him trying to kill Naruto.

    Quote Quote:
    I could understand Sasuke tring to kill Itachi even considering how much he loved him but killing his "new famility" that is only tring to save him (expecialy Naruto) to achive that goal i just can't do. If Sasuke would try to kill Itachi at first and then the elders but would never even imagine killing Naruto, Saskura, Kakashi then that would make sense to me (well not so much after finding out about Itachi)
    The thing is that Team 7 is trying to stop him from achieving his goal. He's already noted earlier that his goal (which was initially killing Itachi) was more important than the bonds that he shared with them. I see no reason why he'd reverse his decision after finding out that Itachi was used.

    Quote Quote:
    Then after all of that he finds out Itachi was actualy protecting him and loving him and what not and he decides to go against all that Itachi wanted for him and what Itachi loved and destroy it in his Name?!?!?! Makes no bloody sense to me man. He is even "cheering" to Itachi after he killed Danzou. The only thing i can say its that he is completly insane and no rational person can understand what insane people think. He could just keep Itachi out of the equation completly and never stated he is doing it for him/in his name(and the rest of his clan of course).
    Because they used Itachi. Again, he explained why he's doing what he's doing when he spoke to Tobi. What he saw and what Itachi saw were two different things. To him, Itachi was used for nothing. To him, losing Itachi (at his own hands at that) was justification for destroying Konoha.

    Quote Quote:
    PS. this is wrong:

    Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi just to name some that would have died for Sasuke, Naruto is curently stating he is ready to die with Sasuke just to be able to save him. If that is not truly loving him i don't know what is. What i can't understand is why would Sasuke be ok with killing Naruto, its like killing Itachi all over again but this time knowing what is what.
    First part of this is fair. Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, and arguably Ino all love him. Second part is again easy to understand when you realize that Sasuke already had strong bonds with his brother, was forced to cut them, and then found out that the reason for cutting them was invalid. Naruto, etc., aren't actual family to him, even if he was very close to them, and he resolved a long time ago to cut those bonds.

    Quote Quote:
    I wonder what would Sasuke state if he somehow found out how much faith Itachi put in Naruto.
    This is one reason why I hope he encounters Itachi...that would be an interesting situation, but I think it would result in Sasuke just killing Itachi again, lol

    Quote Quote:
    Ah more smug and bait posts from you... What exacly is you're problem with my faith?
    Nothing really, it's just hilarious to see you on some "it makes no sense to me" type of thing as if it hasn't already been explained in the manga AND multiple times on the forum.

    Quote Quote:
    Diferent things. I can understand his goal, get revange for his pain and for his family but i can't understand how he is going about in achiving that goal.
    Yet, that's not what you said. I quoted what you said, man. You said you understood why he's doing his actions. I took your own words. How are they different things? If you had initially stated that you understood his goal but not his actions, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but you didn't say that at all.
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

  2. #32
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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    @UchihaHunter

    Its about cuting those bounds. If Sasuke is ready to go this far to avenge his family and its not able to cut THOSE BOUNDS (other type of bounds as he himself stated) then how come he can cut the bounds with his new family? Just think how he acted when he found out what he has done after killing Itachi. He was crying his eyes out. Naruto to him was like another brother, like another Itachi.
    His goal is nice and all but deciding to kill Naruto because he is in the way is the part that i can't get. He could do things to try to avoid him, to spare him and so on. That entire post was addresed to ninjabot who actualy has a brother. I was asking him if he could kill his brother to avenge the rest of his family just because he was in his way... And not only that but tring to save him...

    Quote Quote:
    Because they used Itachi. Again, he explained why he's doing what he's doing when he spoke to Tobi. What he saw and what Itachi saw were two different things. To him, Itachi was used for nothing. To him, losing Itachi (at his own hands at that) was justification for destroying Konoha.
    I am aware of that but what i don't understant is how can he belive he is cleansing the Uchiha name and somehow avenging what was done to Itachi when everything Sasuke is doing is taking a great big dump on everything Itachi was?

    Quote Quote:
    Nothing really, it's just hilarious to see you on some "it makes no sense to me" type of thing as if it hasn't already been explained in the manga AND multiple times on the forum.
    Its not explained, its personal interpretation. Its not like its something that can be proven with numbers. Its like tring to treat an insane person. What i am tring to do is understand what in the blazers is going trough Sasuke's head (very insane person). To me how he acts makes no sense. As i said i can understand him neededing that revange but how he is ready to piss on Itachi and Naruto makes no sense (to me).

    Quote Quote:
    Yet, that's not what you said. I quoted what you said, man. You said you understood why he's doing his actions. I took your own words. How are they different things? If you had initially stated that you understood his goal but not his actions, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but you didn't say that at all.
    What i said its that i undestand why he seeks revange, what i don't get is how he goes about achieving that revange. The only time i actualy felt like Sasuke is getting rational it was vs Bee when he remember his team 7.

    I could explain this with the fact that revange is all he has left but that is not true, he had a new family, that is the real puzzle.

  3. #33
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character(Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post

    I also don't think Sasuke is poorly written at all. I don't understand this notion that all characters are "suppose" to overcome their fate/demons. That's just way too unrealistic for me.
    Too unrealistic? This is manga where ninjas have abilities like having lightning blades coming out of their hands yet that is too unrealistic...

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character(Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by chorns View Post
    Too unrealistic? This is manga where ninjas have abilities like having lightning blades coming out of their hands yet that is too unrealistic...
    They're also still human. They can love, hate, overcome their metaphorical demons, or succumb to them. They can lie or be honest and have memories and beliefs and feelings. For everyone ever to somehow change because one young man convinced them to is a little extreme, even in the Naruto universe, because some people are so unhinged (e.g. Sasuke) that they can't be changed, even with action (and more action, and moooore action. I think there was some crying, too).

    That's the point of Sasuke anyway. That guy that was supposed to be Naruto's "friend" became the one guy Naruto couldn't save, whether with words or action. Sasuke's thirst for revenge was unstoppable even before Itachi died, then multiplied after finding out the truth, and then evolved into what seems like empty bloodlust to me. It's actually quite riveting, imo.

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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    I was thinking about it, and I was comparing the scene of Sasuke destroying a rock to an episode of Bleach's filler where Kenpachi spends half the episode destroying a forest, literally cutting trees.

    While I think that Sasuke is in the dumps of characters at this point, I actually think that Naruto's the one who's worse off. Naruto keeps believing, quite naively, that he can always save Sasuke. Regardless of what happens, Naruto believes that he can save Sasuke. Whether Sasuke attacks Sakura or what, Naruto always believes that Sasuke's redeemable. I actually think that the scene of the crow saving Itachi instead of being used to save Sasuke is evidence that Naruto's belief in Sasuke's ability to be redeemed is just that, naive.

    I question the bonds that ever existed between Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke easily cuts them, but Naruto has it in his head that they're literally blood brothers. There are moments where friendship is evident, but more often than not, Naruto appears to read into situations far more than the actuality of the situation.

    Sasuke's failed on the whole, but I believe that Naruto's failings are the reason that Sasuke's failing.
    Last edited by FrostyMouse; December 21, 2011 at 03:46 PM.

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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character(Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by chorns View Post
    Too unrealistic? This is manga where ninjas have abilities like having lightning blades coming out of their hands yet that is too unrealistic...
    That is defenetly not the same thing. Curent age guns would look like MAGIC to some people 2000 years back. But emotions and how they all need and how they all will overcome those demons... Well its diferent and its not that realistic for all of them to be able to do it. Now i am not saying i have a problem with it but the comparison is not exacly valid :P

    @FrostyMouse

    Having faith in diferent things and always finding something good in people is not "naive". If anything you need some insane caracter strenght to try to save/love someone that is hating your and tring to kill you and you're friends. If you whant to go with the manga even Itachi put his faith in Naruto to save Sasuke. Then we also have Konan, Nagato, Tsunade, J Man, Minato, Itachi, Sakura, Bee, Raikage and this list is HUGE with people that entrusted the world to this kid who's main "weapon" is the thing that you call "naivety".

    If you only go with Nagato and Gaara as the dudes he saved by beeing "naive" ands its enough. I mean really both of those dudes where mass murderers and if he can save them why would he give up on Sasuke? From part 1 was made clear that Naruto never gives up. Do you remember when JMan told Naruto that he should give up on Sasuke as only stupid people do what he is doing? Naruto stated that if that is what it means to be smart then he will be dumb for the rest of his life. Naruto NEVER give's up on his friends and that is what i love about the kid.

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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Imho Kishi simply lost control with the character of Sasuke, at the point of resorting to bad writing to justify his "anger". I'll elaborate on that. Sasuke is Kishi's favorite character, he said so from day one ( and to be completely clear, said so again in the last interview ) and he clearly created his ideal idea of a perfect character:
    loved by all, a genius, has the coolest Gekkei Kenkai and so. The perfect opposite of Naruto which, in a right environment ( not hated but accepted by the rookie of the year and his sensei ) and sheer hard work and unexpected talent ( do not forget that he completely mastered a Rank B Kinjutsu in 2-3 hours while Sasuke struggled with a C rank Ninjutsu for a week ) managed to be on par with him. So far, the dynamics between the two was flawless:
    the failure managed to be aknowledged by the genius, which felt a threat in Naruto. And so we have the battle at VOTE, and the climax of Part 1. So far so good, part 1 was an extraordinary example of a great manga imho.

    Now Part 2. On one hand we have Naruto that accomplished, in a 3 year trip, to learn only 1 jutsu ( while he learned the Rasengan in a week ) and anything else, starting again imho as a talentless dead last. On the other hand we have Sasuke which is cool, battles the entire team 7 without trouble etc. And this is good, if they mantained the balance they had in part 1 we wouldn't enjoyed naruto's struggle to be on par once more with his "brother". Bad writing, but acceptable nonetheless. From then, Sasuke manages to steal Naruto's spot as the main character ( he is, after all, the only one who has his own cover devoid of Naruto, in more than an occasion and even on consecutive occasions if my memory doesn't trick me ) until Sasuke manages to kill Itachi.

    The focus then returns to Naruto, which battles and ends Pein, and is finally aknowledged by his village, while Sasuke falls in the trap set by Madara. Yet, in this moment, we see the best imho impression of Sasuke, who lost his brother, get stomped by a foe even after obtaining the strongest ( at the time at least ) Gekkei Kenkai of the manga, relying on his companions, being saved and saving them time and time again. We now have a likable Sasuke, who is no one puppet, who cares about others, who remembers Team 7 while retaining the cool things that he always had. So far Sasuke is not the main antagonist, but a main character, on the same spot of Naruto.

    Then begins the bad writing imho:
    Sasuke has a 180° turn, he becomes a merciless killer, a hate filled ninja without no apparent reason ( I mean everything he knows he knowed before attempting to capture Killer Bee, and at the time was the likable Sasuke, not the ass Sasuke ). He kills ( or attemps to do so ) anyone who stand in his way, do not care for his comrades and foolishly tries to battle Kage after Kage, instead of being the smart guy he is ( was? ) and using a different approach. His chakra becomes colder and eviler than his Second Stage, again without apparent reason. He kills Danzou while sacrificing Karin and tries to do the same with Kakashi and Sakura, and clearly states that he will be pleasured by killing them personally. then we have the confrontation with Naruto and his decision to get stronger to kill him.

    Now, why is that? He learned that Itachi sacrifice was for the village of Konoha. He was ordered by Danzou and the 2 advisors, not the Hokage. He realistically and logically would want revenge against them, but he childishly blames Konoha ( which always treated him right, by Itachi's warning ). Now he is but a merciless, uncaring murderer, as we saw when he killed Zetsu just for the fun of it.
    Imho the reason is that Kishi doesn't want that the final fight between Naruto and Sasuke to be a popularity contest when the main character loses ( face it, Sasuke was more popular than Naruto until this arc ) and so he "killed" the character he was so wrapped to make cool and likable for the sake of the story. That and he seems to like downplaying Naruto every chance he gets, not really helping his case.

    It his reasonable that Sasuke doesn't want to return to Konoha and all, he has his own life and its not Naruto or Sakura's business to butt in his by force, assuming that Sasuke must return to Konoha because they want to. That is selfish. Sasuke wanted power for his goal, exactly like Naruto wanted power for his own. He killed Oro, so Naruto really didn't have any reason to make him come back, since he was safe from the body transfer. It is not reasonable imho his turning in a killer without a plausible reason, unless this Mangekyou Sharingan really corrupts his user, which is bullshit, as Itachi ans Shisui were the finest shinobi ever.

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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    My best explanation for why Sauke does this and that is simple, he is insane. We cant wrap our mind around his decisions and his logic know of days because his mind is long past gone, he was analytical and prob still is, it is just his way of going about things has went 180 so now instead of thinking things out in a stategy he has just went with the idc/go with the flow attitude, tactic are out of the window n he just do things


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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Megapithicanthrope's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character(Rant)

    I appreciate the sentiment behind everything you've said but I see Sasuke's role in the story a little bit differently. From the beginning Kishimoto has protrayed Sasuke as a very moral and righteous person. It was from Sasuke, after all, that Naruto first began to learn about the importance of relationships and living for other people. Sasuke was Naruto's role model.

    I also think Sasuke's character is why he's had to go through so much. Only by having Sasuke suffer so much has Kishimoto been able to push Sasuke to the point of doing such terrible things. That's how righteous of a person the author sees Sasuke as. Nor do I think the author has pushed Sasuke down this dark path to make Naruto look better but rather to make it impossible for Naruto to ever reach Sasuke and bring him back. That way Naruto will have no choice left but to turn to the one person who actually can reach Sasuke.

    I think all of this has been done to finally teach Naruto the all importan lesson of accepting himself for who he is. In his quest to gain acceptance, Naruto set Sasuke up as his bench mark and instigated a rivalry with him, trying to become just like Sasuke. The only problem is that Naruto is not now, nor will he ever be, Sasuke.

    I also think it will teach Naruto about the importance of relying on others. Because of his uprbringing, Naruto shuns reliance on others and tries to do everything himself (something that not even Sasuke felt he could do as evidenced by his reliance on Taka). If Naruto is to become Hokage and be effective at it, he must learn to accept his own limitations and be willing to work with and rely on others.

    ---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 AM ----------

    I should also add that it'll teach Naruto some humility. He's become insufferably arrogant.
    Last edited by Megapithicanthrope; December 23, 2011 at 11:27 AM.

    Well, this can't lead to anything good!

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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    @Megapithicanthrope


    Arrogant? Not the way i see it. Sure Naruto keeps blabling about doing it alone but that is not because he things he is God (like Nagato) but because he does not whant to see his friends getting hurt. He also feels like everybody left this for him to do (like Minato). Even if there is some arrogance there to state "insufferably arrogant" makes no sense to me. Perhaps you can give some examples ?

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Prince Sasuke's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Megapithicanthrope


    Arrogant? Not the way i see it. Sure Naruto keeps blabling about doing it alone but that is not because he things he is God (like Nagato) but because he does not whant to see his friends getting hurt. He also feels like everybody left this for him to do (like Minato). Even if there is some arrogance there to state "insufferably arrogant" makes no sense to me. Perhaps you can give some examples ?
    I disagree, Naruto knows and believes that no other shinobi is on his level, that's where the arrogance comes into play.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Megapithicanthrope's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Megapithicanthrope


    Arrogant? Not the way i see it. Sure Naruto keeps blabling about doing it alone but that is not because he things he is God (like Nagato) but because he does not whant to see his friends getting hurt. He also feels like everybody left this for him to do (like Minato). Even if there is some arrogance there to state "insufferably arrogant" makes no sense to me. Perhaps you can give some examples ?
    You're forgetting Itachi's entire speech to Naruto, I think. In it Itachi stongly warns Naruto against the very arrogance I'm referring to and reminds Naruto not to forget his need to rely on others or else he'll turn out just like Madara.
    Last edited by Megapithicanthrope; December 23, 2011 at 10:02 PM.

    Well, this can't lead to anything good!

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Megapithicanthrope


    Arrogant? Not the way i see it. Sure Naruto keeps blabling about doing it alone but that is not because he things he is God (like Nagato) but because he does not whant to see his friends getting hurt. He also feels like everybody left this for him to do (like Minato). Even if there is some arrogance there to state "insufferably arrogant" makes no sense to me. Perhaps you can give some examples ?
    Naruto is indeed "insufferably arrogant" because he thinks he is above everybody else. That he can solve all problems that nobody else can solve. Nobody wants to see their comrades hurt but everybody has found ways to work as a team, including Kages. I don't quite blame him for it since Kishi turned him into Jesus and everybody praises him to no end, but it is what it is. Naruto is a controlling, arrogant, self-centered douche whose only goal is to impose his will on to others. True Story.
    Last edited by chilibun; December 23, 2011 at 10:22 PM.

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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Naruto is indeed "insufferably arrogant" because he thinks he is above everybody else. That he can solve all problems that nobody else can solve. Nobody wants to see their comrades hurt but everybody has found ways to work as a team, including Kages. I don't quite blame him for it since Kishi turned him into Jesus and everybody praises him to no end, but it is what it is. Naruto is a controlling, arrogant, self-centered douche whose only goal is to impose his will on to others. True Story.

    There's too much truth in that statement to ignore. Well said.

    Well, this can't lead to anything good!

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    Re: Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant)

    Not the way i see it. Naruto is taking the world on his sholders, in a way Jesus has (yes religious stuff don't kill me).

    I faill to see 1 instance when Naruto is stating that he is above ANYBODY. He is humble and apologizing even to biju's (curent chapter). He is getting saved on the battlefield and saying ty.

    He is doing what he is doing because he feels like this is his destany and he has to shoulder the worlds hate, he does not whant other people to have to sholder it. Even Sasuke he whant to save him himself and die with him. He does not even belive he will fight and WIN. He is ready to SACRIFICE himself for that.

    The only time when its a somewhat arrogance on his part is when he states he does not doughts himself. But then he explains why. He never even states HOW he can do it or that he KNOWS how to do it. He just tries his best to do it. He just belives in what JMan belived (as stated so in the manga).

    I dare anybody to find a clear line from curent Naruto where he states he is above anybody else or whatever.

    Again sacrifing yourself for the world is NOT arrogance.

    Naruto is just following on the teaching, legacy and the job left to him by JMan and Minato. Nothing more. If anything he is foolish beliving he can save the world himself but NOT arrogant. Itachi himself was NOT arrogant beliving he can save Sasuke himself... Mistaken yes but not arrogant.

    Naruto has never turned down ANY HELP he got. He just whants to do as MUCH AS HE CAN.
    He is just pushing himself as much as possible to intercept all the punches that are directed at any of his friends, if that is arrogance i don't know what a hero is.

    @chilibun

    Oh do show me where Naruto stated he knows how to fix the world? The last time i cheked he stated he belives in what JMan belived and THAT is his answer. Aka this invalidates your post.

    PS. Naruto is working with Bee so its not like he is not working in a team or he is alone. Hell on all the battlefields he worked AS PART OF A TEAM.
    Last edited by xXan; December 27, 2011 at 10:12 AM.

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