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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

  1. #451
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The difference is we can show Itachi one-shotting a ninja of Minato's level with Genjutsu, meaning that using Minato's level as evidence of his ability to escape Genjutsu is a pathetic argument. It's counter-productive even.

    It's essentially like... If my rifle can shoot through kevlar vests, and you claim that you can survive one of my bullets because you MIGHT be wearing a kevlar vest (since ninja of your level have access to said clothing...) I can't take your argument seriously.

    Even worse, I used my weakest ammunition (basic Sharingan Genjutsu), not my strongest ammo (Tsukuyomi) to one-shot the last guy I put down (genius of the Sannin and Genjutsu expert: Orochimaru). Unless you can prove to me that your vest is tougher than the last guy I owned who, I repeat, is of the same level as you, I've absolutely no reason to assume you can survive where he failed. Infact, it'd be perfectly logical to expect you to fall just as easily, if not easier.

    THIS is the difference between pro Minato and pro Itachi arguments in a fight. One relies on assumption. The other on displayed feats.
    Your analogy is nice and all, but it doesnt really tie in. Minato isnt Orochimaru nor can he do anything Oro can do, aside from the basic stuff like walk and breathe. They have different intellect levels and are completely different combatants. One is an offensive and other defensive. And while you all say Itachi 1shotted Oro, you have to take into account that he simply immobilized him, he didnt leave him drooling or brain dead. What outcome would have come had he used Tsukuyomi? Maybe Oro would have been a vegetable, What outcome would have come if Orochimaru simply wasnt obsessed with possessing an Uchiha, again unknown.

    Fact still remains, Oro tried to break out and would have been successful, i think. Minato should atleast have the basic ability to break out of it. Can he break out of Tsukuyomi? No, but saying that a simple Genjutsu would actually put him down is kinda retarded tbf.

    Itachis tsukuyomi killing anyone is as much an assumption as say... Minato BFRing Itachi. If we rely on manga facts, then these fights would be extremely boring. Both parties assume a lot, its all based off ones capability to imagine a likely scenario. Sure Minato fanboys go overboard with the Hiraishin crap, but what else is there? Putting him in a fight with his limited showings is simply asking for someone to pull something out of theyre buttcheeks. Its hard to imagine a scenario with his limited showings and then ask for Manga evidence when you all know as much as the next guy that it doesnt exist.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NinjaStar's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @jaymizzo

    I don't think anybody is suggesting that the moment Minato(or anybody for that matter) gets caught in a genjutsu they are automatically dead before they can do anything. Genjutsu is just used to make an opening. Like how Oro was still functioning and was about to perform the necessary handseals to break out but was too slow. Some people might be able to get out in time against regular genjutsu users but the problem is that the two genjutsu users that we are usually debating about(Sasuke and Itachi) also have an instantaneous move; Amaterasu. If their opponent gets slowed down or distracted by a genjutsu then its the easiest thing in the world to just drop an Amaterasu on them. So even if we did assume Minato could break out of the genjutsu like Oro did(which we can't) it still wouldn't be fast enough to avoid their instantaneous attack so in a way i guess it does kinda equal death....unless you wanna argue Amaterasu doesn't work on him

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  4. #453
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaStar View Post
    @jaymizzo

    I don't think anybody is suggesting that the moment Minato(or anybody for that matter) gets caught in a genjutsu they are automatically dead before they can do anything. Genjutsu is just used to make an opening. Like how Oro was still functioning and was about to perform the necessary handseals to break out but was too slow. Some people might be able to get out in time against regular genjutsu users but the problem is that the two genjutsu users that we are usually debating about(Sasuke and Itachi) also have an instantaneous move; Amaterasu. If their opponent gets slowed down or distracted by a genjutsu then its the easiest thing in the world to just drop an Amaterasu on them. So even if we did assume Minato could break out of the genjutsu like Oro did(which we can't) it still wouldn't be fast enough to avoid their instantaneous attack so in a way i guess it does kinda equal death....unless you wanna argue Amaterasu doesn't work on him
    Actually, a few people have said Minato gets caught in a genjutsu and he dies. And not to sound redundant but Minato does have Hiraishin, Amaterasu shouldnt really work on a high speed target, let alone a teleporting one. Obviously if Itachi lights up the field then Minato has no way of getting out without BFR.

    Simply formulating an argument like Minato gets genjutsued and its over is as bad as someone saying Minato tags Itachi and its over. Both are really really terribly desperate arguments.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo
    Your analogy is nice and all, but it doesnt really tie in. Minato isnt Orochimaru nor can he do anything Oro can do, aside from the basic stuff like walk and breathe. They have different intellect levels and are completely different combatants. One is an offensive and other defensive. And while you all say Itachi 1shotted Oro, you have to take into account that he simply immobilized him, he didnt leave him drooling or brain dead. What outcome would have come had he used Tsukuyomi? Maybe Oro would have been a vegetable, What outcome would have come if Orochimaru simply wasnt obsessed with possessing an Uchiha, again unknown.
    The point is the fight started, then Itachi made one movement... then the fight was over. With one Genjutsu. One basic Genjutsu. Likewise, the point of bringing Orochimaru into the comparison is because of the calibur of both ninja. Orochimaru was considered for Kage status the same time Minato was, but Minato was chosen due to Orochimaru being batshit crazy. If that doesn't speak volumes about Orochimaru's level then nothing does. Secondly, nothing about Minato's fighting style (offensive or defensive) would alter the outcome of a fight that starts the same way the Itachi vs. Orochimaru fight started. If they are both looking directly at eachother from the beginning of the fight, connecting glances is incredibly likely.


    Quote Quote:
    Fact still remains, Oro tried to break out and would have been successful, i think. Minato should atleast have the basic ability to break out of it. Can he break out of Tsukuyomi? No, but saying that a simple Genjutsu would actually put him down is kinda retarded tbf.
    Well it wouldn't kill him, no. That's common knowledge as Genjutsu is non-lethal. The point is that once it's cast Minato's incapable of winning the fight right after as by the time he realizes it's taken effect (if he even can), and decides to attempt teleporting via Hiraishin, Itachi is perfectly capable of stabbing him right in the forehead beforehand with a kunai. It's not enough to be able to break out. You have to break out in time to react to an impending assault. It just adds more assumption to previous assumption. Assuming Minato will break out... and then assuming he will react to whatever's being performed against him once he does escape.


    Quote Quote:
    Itachis tsukuyomi killing anyone is as much an assumption as say... Minato BFRing Itachi. If we rely on manga facts, then these fights would be extremely boring. Both parties assume a lot, its all based off ones capability to imagine a likely scenario. Sure Minato fanboys go overboard with the Hiraishin crap, but what else is there? Putting him in a fight with his limited showings is simply asking for someone to pull something out of theyre buttcheeks. Its hard to imagine a scenario with his limited showings and then ask for Manga evidence when you all know as much as the next guy that it doesnt exist.
    The biggest thing that needs to be accepted is that ONE side makes far more assumptions than the other. No one here is saying the Itachi supporters aren't making assumptions. We're simply saying their assumptions aren't baseless as there are actual manga facts supporting them. Assumption is fine as long as it's not outrageous or baseless.

    Reasons to assume Itachi can beat Minato with Genjutsu:
    Itachi is one of the best Genjutsu users in the manga
    Itachi can cast Genjutsu through crows, with his fingers, and with a single glance
    His strongest Genjutsu can't be escaped without outside help or a Sharingan and Uchiha blood
    Minato has shown no ability to escape Genjutsu, let alone Genjutsu of Itachi's strength level
    Itachi has dominated the genius of the Sannin, Orochimaru, with one of his basic Genjutsu
    Orochimaru is of the same tier level as Minato (Kage/S-rank nin/Genius-type

    See all that? Then there's this

    Reasons for believing Minato can escape Itachi's Genjutsu:
    Minato is a high level ninja, and high level ninja usually don't go down so easily (bullshit considering what happened to Orochimaru)
    Minato knows not to look into an Uchiha's eyes (viable maybe, but worthless considering Itachi can cast Genjutsu with other appendages and even his summons)
    If Minato manages to place tags he can rely on teleportation to avoid Genjutsu (most likely and least fanboyish argument, but takes suspension of logic to believe he could achieve this before Itachi forces him to look in his eyes)

    See? This is why. This is why it's okay to dismiss arguments in Minato's favor against Itachi's Genjutsu (or anyone with Genjutsu that matter). Maybe there's another reason Minato supporters might have that I have missed, but I'll be damned if I can think up one that's worth debating against.

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  7. #455
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    ninjabot

    Quote Quote:
    The point is the fight started, then Itachi made one movement... then the fight was over. With one Genjutsu. One basic Genjutsu. Likewise, the point of bringing Orochimaru into the comparison is because of the calibur of both ninja. Orochimaru was considered for Kage status the same time Minato was, but Minato was chosen due to Orochimaru being batshit crazy. If that doesn't speak volumes about Orochimaru's level then nothing does. Secondly, nothing about Minato's fighting style (offensive or defensive) would alter the outcome of a fight that starts the same way the Itachi vs. Orochimaru fight started. If they are both looking directly at eachother from the beginning of the fight, connecting glances is incredibly likely.
    If the fight your talking about is against Orochimaru, then Orochimaru never thought or even tried to attack Itachi to harm him, he simply wanted his body. And we know how perfect Orochimaru wants his bodies and how far he is willing to go and sacrifice for one.

    What you think doesnt necessarily mean its true, Itachi has fought more than one person without using a genjutsu off the bat. He fought both Naruto and Bee and only used a genjutsu mid combat. And there are plenty of Ninjas out there fighting Uchihas without a single care in the world about theyre eyes. I mean, the Kages are all fighting Madara and dont give toss about the Rinnengan, Mokuton or EMS. - Not using this as hard evidence or evidence at all, simply saying that using Genjutsu straight off the bat isnt a straight fact, he can do it but thats in your argument and your scenario.


    Quote Quote:
    Well it wouldn't kill him, no. That's common knowledge as Genjutsu is non-lethal.
    Im glad you believe that, but cant say the same for the majority.

    Quote Quote:
    The point is that once it's cast Minato's incapable of winning the fight right after as by the time he realizes it's taken effect (if he even can), and decides to attempt teleporting via Hiraishin, Itachi is perfectly capable of stabbing him right in the forehead beforehand with a kunai. It's not enough to be able to break out. You have to break out in time to react to an impending assault. It just adds more assumption to previous assumption. Assuming Minato will break out... and then assuming he will react to whatever's being performed against him once he does escape.
    Bee without the help of Hachibi noticed he was in a genjutsu, I can assume that Minato should be able to do so too, wether he can break out in time or not is based purely on assumptions alone without anything favoring either side.

    Quote Quote:
    The biggest thing that needs to be accepted is that ONE side makes far more assumptions than the other. No one here is saying the Itachi supporters aren't making assumptions. We're simply saying their assumptions aren't baseless as there are actual manga facts supporting them. Assumption is fine as long as it's not outrageous or baseless.

    Reasons to assume Itachi can beat Minato with Genjutsu:
    Itachi is one of the best Genjutsu users in the manga
    Itachi can cast Genjutsu through crows, with his fingers, and with a single glance
    His strongest Genjutsu can't be escaped without outside help or a Sharingan and Uchiha blood
    Minato has shown no ability to escape Genjutsu, let alone Genjutsu of Itachi's strength level
    Itachi has dominated the genius of the Sannin, Orochimaru, with one of his basic Genjutsu
    Orochimaru is of the same tier level as Minato (Kage/S-rank nin/Genius-type

    See all that? Then there's this

    Reasons for believing Minato can escape Itachi's Genjutsu:
    Minato is a high level ninja, and high level ninja usually don't go down so easily (bullshit considering what happened to Orochimaru)
    Minato knows not to look into an Uchiha's eyes (viable maybe, but worthless considering Itachi can cast Genjutsu with other appendages and even his summons)
    If Minato manages to place tags he can rely on teleportation to avoid Genjutsu (most likely and least fanboyish argument, but takes suspension of logic to believe he could achieve this before Itachi forces him to look in his eyes)

    See? This is why. This is why it's okay to dismiss arguments in Minato's favor against Itachi's Genjutsu (or anyone with Genjutsu that matter). Maybe there's another reason Minato supporters might have that I have missed, but I'll be damned if I can think up one that's worth debating against.
    Im not disregarding the fact that Minato fanboys make some furious assumptions and say things that are completely retarded at times, but they dont have much to work with. You cant blame them. Up until now Hashirama won most of his fights based on hype alone, and that hype is now being backed up. All Minato has is hype and a small little skirmish. Cant blame people for going over the limit of imagination.

    Again, comparing Orochimarus feats to Minato isnt really fair. They are both different ninjas and both depend on different skills. Its like saying that since Orochimaru or Hiruzen etc couldnt break out of genjutsu, then Hashirama cant. Taking one completely different Ninjas feats and applying it onto another weather it be good or bad is just unfair.

    P.S. Dont get me wrong, i give Itachi a win over Minato most times, but the simple "Itachi stomps" "1shot Genjutsu" statements are really annoying. And i dont understand why anyone would place someone with limited.. Very limited showings against someone who we have seen theyre full capabilities.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  8. #456
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The difference is we can show Itachi one-shotting a ninja of Minato's level with Genjutsu, meaning that using Minato's level as evidence of his ability to escape Genjutsu is a pathetic argument. It's counter-productive even.
    If you're talking about Orochimaru, he never one-shotted Orochimaru. Only Kakashi has been one-shotted, and even that is iffy because Kakashi was still able to function until Gai arrived. If the genjutsu was a one-shot move, Orochimaru would have been taken out or dead, but he was trying to break the genjutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Actually, a few people have said Minato gets caught in a genjutsu and he dies. And not to sound redundant but Minato does have Hiraishin, Amaterasu shouldnt really work on a high speed target, let alone a teleporting one. Obviously if Itachi lights up the field then Minato has no way of getting out without BFR.

    Simply formulating an argument like Minato gets genjutsued and its over is as bad as someone saying Minato tags Itachi and its over. Both are really really terribly desperate arguments.
    High speed target who can teleport doesn't mean he can avoid Amaterasu. Raikage and Sasuke knew or predicted Amaterasu was coming and could avoid it, but Minato won't know Amaterasu is coming. He won't be able to avoid it.

    Amaterasu was dodged on two occasions because the targets knew it was coming and could react in time. if they don't know it's coming, they'll be surprised nad likely not react in time, which is what may happen to Minato.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Minato knows not to look into an Uchiha's eyes (viable maybe, but worthless considering Itachi can cast Genjutsu with other appendages and even his summons)
    That's a BS excuse in my opinion because no one but Gai came up with the way to fight a Sharingan user. The only way to fight was to run away or double-team an Uchiha. Uchiha most likely had many enemies over the decades, but none of them ever came up with a way to fight one without looking in the eyes. not Orochimaru and not even Kakashi, two people who have been said to be geniuses of their generation. Minato won't know that or be able to come up with that idea.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    That's a BS excuse in my opinion because no one but Gai came up with the way to fight a Sharingan user. The only way to fight was to run away or double-team an Uchiha. Uchiha most likely had many enemies over the decades, but none of them ever came up with a way to fight one without looking in the eyes. not Orochimaru and not even Kakashi, two people who have been said to be geniuses of their generation. Minato won't know that or be able to come up with that idea.
    Naruto knew to do it. And there is another method, Kage bunshins.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Gai told Kakashi, who then told Naruto, Chiyo, and Sakura.

    Which makes me wonder just how smart Gai is. He may not be smart like kakashi, but he's pretty smart. Just a bit of a goof. :P

    Kage bunshins might not help either. At least not against Itachi considering he was able to take out two bunshins in his blind spot.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Gai told Kakashi, who then told Naruto, Chiyo, and Sakura.

    Which makes me wonder just how smart Gai is. He may not be smart like kakashi, but he's pretty smart. Just a bit of a goof. :P

    Kage bunshins might not help either. At least not against Itachi considering he was able to take out two bunshins in his blind spot.
    Naruto is much more skilled with bunshins and i doubt he would use them foolishly against someone like Itachi.

    I guess now someone is going to say Minato cant use a KB because he has never shown the ability to do so :/ Bleh The "insertdeadlimitedcharacter" vs threads really need to stop being made. I dont know what the thread creators expect as replies tbf.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    He wouldn't, but bunshins are mostly useless against Itachi, at least in normal mode. But seeing as how Naruto and Kyuubi are getting along, this is a moot point as the Kyuubi can help Naruto. Too bad we haven't seen Naruto be in a normal genjutsu, I'd like to see him break out. I'm still adamant that Naruto would be able to withstand the effects of Tsukuyomi, but that really depends on what he's tortured with. Physically, it'll be hard but I'm sure he'd still fight. mentally, very iffy.

    Thing is, Minato has had plenty of opportunities to use kage bunshins, especially when it could have helped him but he never did. There is no indication he knows kage bunshin either. Though really, that doesn't really prove anything as Minato may have been wanting to conserve chakra, and it was never known Jiraiya knew kage bunshin until he invaded Amegakure.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    They actually arent, tbh a well experienced Ninja with KB is possibly the only real counter to Genjutsu. You cant really genjutsu a clone and if you do, your wasting your time and chakra and leaving yourself wide open. No one can ever tell the difference between Kage bunshins. And though the topic isnt about Naruto, i really cannot see any mental torture that could in any way work on him, maybe showing Sasuke hooking up, getting married and having kids would mindfuck him, but most Genjutsu users dont know that.

    And Minato never needed a KB because of his fighting style, he relied heavily on his Hiraishin and speed. A kage bunshin against Tobi would have done absolute zero.

    ---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

    Anyway, gonna be off for about 3 weeks, going to see my family in Tanzania. So im gonna miss a lot of Naruto and discussions . See you guys later
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Well, I thought we were talking about Naruto and his bunshins. Even then, it's hard for even an experienced ninja to trick Itachi. The main reason he got taken out was because Kakashi held on to him while Naruto finished him off, and it's likely he let himself be. It's still pretty amazing how Itachi rarely loses his composure. He just instantly figured out that Kakashi used a bunshin.

    Would be so epic to see him, Minato, and Kakashi (or any of the combo) fight together and against each other. No matter what anyone says, Kakashi is still pretty awesome. He went up against two of arguably the most powerful Pain bodies and still managed to survive, dying only because he wanted to save Chouji.

    Mental torture like him failing, being a failure, etc could work. Itachi mindfucked Naruto pretty well... apparently genjutsu has that ability. though, Sasuke used Tsukuyomi to scare or mess with people's mind whereas Itachi just used a normal genjutsu.

    A kage bunshin would have done a lot in my opinion. Tobi would have had to deal with two fast, intelligent ninjas who could teleport to seals.


    Have fun in Tanzania! Don't let tasmanian devil eat you! harharhar

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    Interesting question that is, but i still don't think it'd have felt anything wrong if sage mode was left with the toads only since i don't see anything barring it from being toad's specialty. however involving other animals is indeed a better idea,but we need to know what happens if someone can't control natural energy in the methods used by other animals. surely a person can't turn into a statue of a toad if he fails to master snake sage mode.
    The main issue I have with that is, it would have come across like a main character specific thing with no logical reasoning to back it up. The only thing you can say for it would be that the main character just so happened to know the right people who had a contract with the only animals with access to sage mode. Sort of like how Suigetsu and Jugo stumbled upon the thing that's keeping them relevant right now. if Kishimoto decided to only introduce the toads, slugs, and snakes as summon creatures, then it would be plausible for the toads to be the only ones to know of sage mode. However, there is a vast world of summon creatures, and we are supposed to believe that that toads were the only ones to discover that there was a third form of energy to be drawn upon? That's to bullshity for my taste.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; April 03, 2012 at 02:44 PM.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Which makes me wonder just how smart Gai is. He may not be smart like kakashi, but he's pretty smart. Just a bit of a goof. :P
    I actually think that, as a ninja, Gai is almost flawless, despite not having any advantage over other ninjas whatsoever.
    He has the strongest taijutsu sans Naruto in SM, Tsunade and A, he can summon, he can escape easily high-ranked Genjutsu, can predict the movement of others by their body language, and can open the gates.

    Not only that, he is pretty analytical when he needs to be despite his appereance and he is pretty knowledgable.

    I fail to see an evident flaw in Gai that isn't the absence of a Gekkei Kenkai his only weakness, the range, is covered by his 2 strongest jutsus:
    the Morning Peacock and the Afternoon Tiger.
    And he has youth on his side, despite what his true self said

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by enmymiguel View Post
    also nagato was able to sense the chackra cause hes uzumaki blood line. not because of hes rinegan.
    Thats quite an assumption considering the fact that the only trait mentioned among the Uzumaki Clan is their red hair. Just because Karin had sensory abilities doesn't mean that all Uzumaki do. Example, have we seen another Uzumaki besides Naurto's mom use tangible chakra chains?

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