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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

  1. #61
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11 - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    And you would be completely wrong.
    And no, i am totally right and you are completely wrong.

    see how easy it is to throw such lines and that they actually don't count as arguements?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Naruto seriously only uses TWO goddamn jutsus.
    No he doesn't. You can count the rasengan variants as one jutsu in your wishful thinking, but the manga and the db beg to differ. Pardon us if we don't take your word over canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Each Sasuke fight includes a whole variety of justsus that include 3 MS abilities, 5 chidori variants, katons, summons, genjutsu, swordplay, and shurikens.
    If i were to use your way of 'wishful counting', then sasuke's arsenal should be composed of:

    1. MS jutsu(yes they ought to be counted as one...as they are all MS) and Chidori(yes cause they are variants and variants don't count)

    And we can ignore summons,as we've done with naruto...we can ignore swordplay and shuriken as we've done with Naruto's taijutsu,scroll,kunai and shuriken...we can ignore katons as we've done with naruto's fuuton and chakra arms...and we can ignore genjutsu as we've done with naruto(here the only difference is sasuke was gifted his genjutsu through genes, and naruto actually has to work to do it by strategies and use of summons.)

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Whether you find Sasuke fights boring or not is up to you, but his fight are far from tedious.
    Whether you find Naruto fights boring or not is upto you, but his fights are far from tedious.


    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Did you paraphrase me just so I can prove you wrong?
    You know what, i tried give you some headstart...but hey, you still can't prove me wrong. So the question is, do you always post without thinking so that others cannot but prove you wrong,even when they are trying to cut you some slack?

    "see how easy it is to throw such lines and that they actually don't count as arguements?"

    ---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But Sasuke and Naruto are nothing alike in this regard. Naruto's treated the way he is because for all his power and abilities, he usually fights in the same exactly way each battle. Sasuke on the other hand never fights with the same tactics. He always employs unique tactics for every battle.
    Naruto doesn't use the same tactics either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    In addition, while he may be saved from death in the end, Sasuke actually fails and loses, which shows variety.
    ok i'll give you this. Losing is the only thing sasuke does better than naruto...though such 'variety' feels more annoying due to obvious plot shields,since one is supposed to die or beg for life or run away in shame when he 'fails and loses'...and yet kishimoto doesn't allow that for dear sasuke.

    ---------- Post added at 05:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The difference here, that you're still (deliberately) missing is that Naruto had an out, whereas Sasuke didn't. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c435/7.html


    This is Naruto at full health without a damn scratch on his face, but without Sage Mode. At this current point he's capable of performing bunshin to prevent what's about to happen. He doesn't though. He uses somemore of that battle genius logic and runs straight at him. Likewise, Midori just kinda... stood there after the Genjutsu was stopped. Why didn't she reverse summon a clone for him (he still had one left) inorder to skip the "consequence" of time necessary to access Sage Mode? Naruto had multiple ways out, both of whom didn't result in him being maimed.
    And in all the fights, sasuke also had some plot induced outs (like you are suggesting here) to save his skin. Most irritatingly, his sight tends get right just when its required...as was in your cited incidence.





    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I addressed this already. It's not a consequence if he loses nothing. Even when he was buy himself with no one there to save him from the consequences of his actions a damn ghost appeared in his mind and turned off the Kyuubi like it was no big deal. AND perfectly sealed his seal back to a point stronger than it was prior to the fight.

    Sasuke however? Tobi may have shown up to save him, but when Sasuke left that fight he was blind as a bat: an unavoidable consequence. Naruto left his fight with a stronger seal. Sasuke left his fight blind. I dare you to try to compare both situations as equal.
    No, Sasuke actually get to get EMS. I commend you for your clever attempt to include in Minato's countermeasure to the drawback of kyuubi chakra to prove that kyuubi chakra doesn't have a drawback at all...while leaving out the countermeasure to the drawback of MS which was equally in place and in action. I dare you debate honestly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The difference here, that you're still (deliberately) missing is that Naruto had an out, whereas Sasuke didn't. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c435/7.html


    rming bunshin to prevent what's about to happen. He doesn't though. He uses somemore of that battle genius logic and runs straight at him. Likewise, Midori just kinda... stood there after the Genjutsu was stopped. Why didn't she reverse summon a clone for him (he still had one left) inorder to skip the "consequence" of time necessary to access Sage Mode? Naruto had multiple ways out, both of whom didn't result in him being maimed.
    And in all the fights, sasuke also had some plot induced outs (like you are suggesting here) to save his skin. Most irritatingly, his sight tends get right just when its required...as was in your cited incidence.

    Srsly speaking though, you are mistaking the existence of plot induced counter measures with the non-existence of factors/drawbacks which necessitated those counter measures in the first place. Its like saying Malaria no longer exists,or is a problem cause there is quinine. Just because there is an 'out', doesn't mean there was no danger/crisis...otherwise we'll have to agree that no work of fiction where hero comes out victorious ever had any crisis.
    Last edited by ashher; December 26, 2011 at 09:05 AM.

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  3. #62
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher
    And in all the fights, sasuke also had some plot induced outs (like you are suggesting here) to save his skin. Most irritatingly, his sight tends get right just when its required...as was in your cited incidence.

    No he hasn't. His plot induced outs always end up with him paying a huge price. From getting his entire chest exploded, or getting stabbed through the torso with like 5 swords, or getting a wing blown off, or losing a boss summon to survive an explosion, or losing his power up (curse seal). There's always a price. Always a consequence. And it's always immediate.


    Quote Originally Posted by ashher
    No, Sasuke actually get to get EMS. I commend you for your clever attempt to include in Minato's countermeasure to the drawback of kyuubi chakra to prove that kyuubi chakra doesn't have a drawback at all...while leaving out the countermeasure to the drawback of MS which was equally in place and in action. I dare you debate honestly.

    Again, you're trying to say it's the same as what happened when Naruto's seal broke, but when Naruto's seal broke he recovered WHILE the fight was still going on, stronger than he was before (seal completely closed, Kyuubi no longer a threat) without any work of his own accord and no direct price payed (that HE payed, not his Ghost Dad). And my very point isn't that there's no drawback to the Kyuubi, it's that Naruto doesn't have to DEAL with them. Ever. Sasuke's MS usage has drawbacks that he suffers from. No one appeared in his brain and gave him more chakra so he could spam Amaterasu. No one repaired his Susanoo for him when it was cracking.


    And that's the worse possible situation to compare if you're trying to prove a point anyway. Sasuke getting EMS didn't happen during the same fight, it took practically a MONTH. He had to sit through surgery and remain immobile for however many weeks (throughout the time leading up to, and into the second day of the war). You're comparing THAT to Naruto being in danger of going full tails for what? Maybe 15 minutes? An event that resulted in no consequences after (infact, the reverse of consequence. He BENEFITED by gaining a completely repaired seal)?

    Sasuke was out of commission for a month, incapable of training or improving because he was bedridden, but these are similar? The only point you're finding here is the one you're making up. You have to grasp a truckload of straws to try to make your point of view click, and it's still not working.
    Last edited by ninjabot; December 26, 2011 at 10:24 AM.

  4. #63
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Andonan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11 - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    And you would be completely wrong. Naruto seriously only uses TWO goddamn jutsus. Each Sasuke fight includes a whole variety of justsus that include 3 MS abilities, 5 chidori variants, katons, summons, genjutsu, swordplay, and shurikens. Whether you find Sasuke fights boring or not is up to you, but his fight are far from tedious. Did you paraphrase me just so I can prove you wrong?



    Nope, and here is where our definition of spamming differs. Using a jutsu once or twice per fight is not called spamming. Using a jutsu like 100 times per fight is called spamming, especially since its the only jutsus you use.


    Because MS abilities CAN'T be spammed. That was the whole argument. MS jutsus are so chakra intensive and takes such a large toll on the eyes that you simply cannot use it multiple times or for long durations. Sasuke has never used Amaterasu more than once in a fight nor Tsukiyomi. He has also never held Susanoo throughout a fight. He has always used a variety of other jutsus to supplement his fights. And for all the talk of how Sasuke's MS abilities are over powered, he has consistently gotten his ass whooped. He might squeek out a win, but he has never been dominating. Also, he has never managed to defeat anybody by simply using an MS technique. You can make an argument for Amaterasu on Bee, but it wasn't really a win since Bee escaped.


    I fixed it for ya . Seriously though, I did enjoy Naruto in part 1, but his development in part 2 is a major disappointment. I didn't care much if he ever rivaled his dad or tamed the Kyuubi. I just wanted him to be a ninja, with a set of ninja skills. I'd been much happier if he developed a similar skill set to Jiraiya instead of simply gaining power levels and using the same 2 jutsus over and over again.
    Agree to Disagree??


    Different in so many ways, but similar in even more......

  5. #64
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    No he hasn't. His plot induced outs always end up with him paying a huge price. From getting his entire chest exploded, or getting stabbed through the torso with like 5 swords, or getting a wing blown off, or losing a boss summon to survive an explosion, or losing his power up (curse seal). There's always a price. Always a consequence. And it's always immediate.
    In which cases he gets healed back to new(in the middle of the fight i might add), and a new summon. So what price? did he lose the battle because of these things? Has he become handicapped or blind? No. What consequence man?



    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Again, you're trying to say it's the same as what happened when Naruto's seal broke, but when Naruto's seal broke he recovered WHILE the fight was still going on, stronger than he was before (seal completely closed, Kyuubi no longer a threat) without any work of his own accord and no direct price payed (that HE payed, not his Ghost Dad).
    Did i ever deny that kyuubi risk was handled eventually? About not requiring any work of his own, how is that any worse than Zetsu feeding sasuke? In fact...naruto had to do something as a consequence in that very battle, that's not using kyuubi chakra any longer. on the other hand sasuke was free to go back to spamming MS.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    And my very point isn't that there's no drawback to the Kyuubi, it's that Naruto doesn't have to DEAL with them. Ever. Sasuke's MS usage has drawbacks that he suffers from. No one appeared in his brain and gave him more chakra so he could spam Amaterasu. No one repaired his Susanoo for him when it was cracking.
    Yeah, i remember 'hate' coming to rescue him from danzo's seal(i don't want to embarrass you by linking,if you want i can though)...its worse than some other character helping out. HATE come and break seals...wow, that's a cool story if ever was one. And what about the cure of his blindness? He invented a medicine now did he? oh i forgot he got a free gift from his brother...

    About naruto not having to do anything, you do realize that minato couldn't stop naruto from tearing the seal again,right? It was naruto himself who had to stop himself from going over the dark side in every step of his miserable life. He was the one who ultimately made the choice not to give up, unlike sasuke. And that's why he couldn't use Kyuubi mode until recently. Similarly with sage mode, he had to come with the idea of scroll. He was restricted in his use of KB...so yeah drawbacks of kyuubi chakra and sage mode have definitely been factors in how naruto fights and what he can do and can't.


    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    And that's the worse possible situation to compare if you're trying to prove a point anyway. Sasuke getting EMS didn't happen during the same fight, it took practically a MONTH.
    So what? did he lose the previous fight or got permanently handicapped in his previous fight with MS, because he couldn't get to EMS at that time.?No. All the blurring of vision was conveniently kept out from actually affecting the results of sasuke fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    He had to sit through surgery and remain immobile for however many weeks (throughout the time leading up to, and into the second day of the war). You're comparing THAT to Naruto being in danger of going full tails for what? Maybe 15 minutes?
    Yeah just cause you have to bedrest for weeks in flu does not make it anymore dangerous than a stroke, which takes seconds. Naruto's risk not only involved his own life, but the whole village. Compared to that sasuke was nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    An event that resulted in no consequences after (infact, the reverse of consequence. He BENEFITED by gaining a completely repaired seal)?
    the consequence was that naruto couldn't and didn't use kyuubi chakra in the battle afterwards.
    About being benefited from Minato's interference, its the same as sasuke being benefited from tobi and itachi's interference with a free pair of EMS. About being benefited in the middle of a fight, its the same as sasuke being benefited from karin and zetsu and tobi in the middle of a fight.

     
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Sasuke was out of commission for a month, incapable of training or improving because he was bedridden, but these are similar? The only point you're finding here is the one you're making up. You have to grasp a truckload of straws to try to make your point of view click, and it's still not working.
    Yes they are similar.

    look my boy, just cause you are in desperate denial doesn't make what you want to see right.

    It was never said that Sage mode's drawback was risk of blindness,or kyuubi chakra's drawback was risk of blindness. They were stated to have very different risks...a lapse period which puts the user in a vulnerable position during battle in case of sage mode and in case of kyuubi mode,it was the risk of losing life. I've given two manga canon instances where both risks came into play and had to be evaded by using 'outs'.

    Similarly, the risk of MS was stated to be blindness and it came into play in sasuke's fights, which was also evaded using 'outs' . They didn't actually cause sasuke to go blind, or get handicapped permanently or even lose the battle...similar to how naruto never died or turned into frog or got stabbed in the lapse period using kyuubi chakra and sage mode.
    Last edited by ashher; December 26, 2011 at 12:00 PM.

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  7. #65
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11 - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    And no, i am totally right and you are completely wrong.

    see how easy it is to throw such lines and that they actually don't count as arguements?



    No he doesn't. You can count the rasengan variants as one jutsu in your wishful thinking, but the manga and the db beg to differ. Pardon us if we don't take your word over canon.



    If i were to use your way of 'wishful counting', then sasuke's arsenal should be composed of:

    1. MS jutsu(yes they ought to be counted as one...as they are all MS) and Chidori(yes cause they are variants and variants don't count)

    And we can ignore summons,as we've done with naruto...we can ignore swordplay and shuriken as we've done with Naruto's taijutsu,scroll,kunai and shuriken...we can ignore katons as we've done with naruto's fuuton and chakra arms...and we can ignore genjutsu as we've done with naruto(here the only difference is sasuke was gifted his genjutsu through genes, and naruto actually has to work to do it by strategies and use of summons.)



    Whether you find Naruto fights boring or not is upto you, but his fights are far from tedious.




    You know what, i tried give you some headstart...but hey, you still can't prove me wrong. So the question is, do you always post without thinking so that others cannot but prove you wrong,even when they are trying to cut you some slack?

    "see how easy it is to throw such lines and that they actually don't count as arguements?"
    MS = 3 distinct jutsus. If you count them as 1, do you also consider Nagato having 1 jutsu... Each of Sasuke's chidori variants are quite different and has its own specific uses. Chidori, nagashi and senbon are almost completely different jutsus, and only shares a common element. If you don't consider them different jutsus, then I assume you consider all raitons, sutions, and etc. the same as well. I have backed up all my claims with the manga, you haven't. Lets review AGAIN!

    Sasuke vs. Deidara: shunshin+kantana, chidori senbon, chidori spear, snake hands, shurikens+strings, genjutsu, chidori, snake summon
    Sasuke vs. Itachi: genjutsu, shurikens, katon, chidori, body shedding, kirin
    Sasuke vs. Bee: swordplay, chidori, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, chidori spear
    Sasuke vs. Ee and co.: genjutsu, chidori, amaterasu, suanoo, enton
    Sasuke vs. Danzou: susanoo, amaterasu, tsukuyomi, hawk summon, katon, chidori sword and spear
    So yea, Sasuke have used a pretty large variety of jutsus in each of his fights.

    Naruto vs. ANYBODY: clones + rasengan, rasenshuriken
    I can pretty much sum up every fight Naruto has with make clones, opponent gets confused and gets hit with a rasengan/rasenshuriken.

    I have backed up all my claims with manga facts. You haven't. All you've been doing is taking a couple of my posts out of context, while ignoring all the evidence I provide. At this, I'm tired of arguing with you because its pointless and a waste of my time. You provide no factual arguments and just cries "I know you are, but what am I" like a 5 year old.
    Last edited by chilibun; December 26, 2011 at 05:07 PM.

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11 - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    Naruto doesn't use the same tactics either.
    He basically does. Before it was to make use of his clones to land a hit with a Rasengan, while now it has become simply rushing forward and landing a hit with his Rasengan.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    ok i'll give you this. Losing is the only thing sasuke does better than naruto...though such 'variety' feels more annoying due to obvious plot shields,since one is supposed to die or beg for life or run away in shame when he 'fails and loses'...and yet kishimoto doesn't allow that for dear sasuke.
    Sasuke's one of the main characters, he's not gonna die. And we have never seen any losing ninja run away or beg, so it's hardly unique to Sasuke. Regardless, the point is that Sasuke isn't just given a win when he doesn't earn it. No one magically has a change of heart towards him.

  9. #67
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Van Burace View Post
    I think that's the same stuff that "Planetary Rasengan" or multiple rasengans, or using Kyuubi arms to smash Zetsus into Oodama-rasengan. "Naruto Rendan" was just all clones working together when attacking, it's a multiple attack repeating what was done by a single person previously (Konoha Rendan). He's still using his abilities together to change the previous into something new, although it's still quite the same deep down.
    But it was still a new taijutsu move, and the clones worked together.

    Quote Quote:
    Also, I suppose Kishi is keeping Naruto's creativity for Sasuke versus Naruto. That's when the cool stuff will start pumping in! But don't take multiple rasengans lightly: I remember thinking a lot about what other variations would be possible with Kyuubi arms, and it took me hours of entertaining back when that chapter went out.

    Imagine Naruto's clones with tons of arms working together, it's quite impossible to react fast enough to avoid them all!
    From the looks of it, there's no creativity at all. All Naruto is doing is making rasengan, just different forms of it with different names that'd be totally useless and impossible without Kyuubi Chakra arms. The chakra he has is part of his own power since he got it (albeit with help), but the Kyuubi isn't part of his power like Sharingan is for Sasuke. With chakra arms, Naruto should be able to learn more jutsu easily instead of just rasengan.



    Quote Originally Posted by Googlez_kun View Post
    That was at the beginning of part II,where Kishi seemed to still care.As for the bush action,remember the state he was in when he jumped out?And what happened afterwards?
    But before that, Naruto was pretty calm compared to Part I Naruto who'd have jumped out. He did kinda kill the growth with how angry he got, though.




    Anyway, I don't see why this is an issue. In one arc, we've seen more jutsu/new jutsu from Sasuke than we have in the entire manga from Naruto. If Sasuke is a spammer, then Naruto is the king of all spams. He spams bunshins more than anyone has ever spammed any jutsu, and he spammed rasengan in one fight more than Sasuke has in his fights since getting MS. It's absurd to accuse Sasuke of spamming yet defending naruto or letting him get away with the amount of spam. Naruto gets away with anything because he's the main character, while Sasuke gets the flak although he's much better since he's the antagonist.

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  11. #68
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Rarhyx's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    hey does anybody see similarities between Kingdom Hearts' Sora&Riku and Naruto&Sasuke?
    except the part riku already "payed" for his actions

  12. #69
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11 - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    MS = 3 distinct jutsus. If you count them as 1, do you also consider Nagato having 1 jutsu... Each of Sasuke's chidori variants are quite different and has its own specific uses. Chidori, nagashi and senbon are almost completely different jutsus, and only shares a common element. If you don't consider them different jutsus, then I assume you consider all raitons, sutions, and etc. the same as well. I have backed up all my claims with the manga, you haven't.
    you are making a huge mistake here,I don't count them as one going against the manga and db...but i said that they would have to be counted as one if one is to go by your method of grouping every related jutsu into one.

    Secondly, where have you backed up your claims about rasengan variants being one with manga or db in your post? And don't try to go into semantics by using words like 'almost' before different. You are the not the one to determine how much 'difference' there has to be between 2 different jutsus...manga and db are there for that. So go and see the list of jutsu that naruto uses in db and tell me that it was mentioned there that naruto uses 2 jutsus as u claimed. show me the words of db/manga.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke vs. Deidara: shunshin+kantana, chidori senbon, chidori spear, snake hands, shurikens+strings, genjutsu, chidori, snake summon
    Sasuke vs. Itachi: genjutsu, shurikens, katon, chidori, body shedding, kirin
    Sasuke vs. Bee: swordplay, chidori, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, chidori spear
    Sasuke vs. Ee and co.: genjutsu, chidori, amaterasu, suanoo, enton
    Sasuke vs. Danzou: susanoo, amaterasu, tsukuyomi, hawk summon, katon, chidori sword and spear
    So yea, Sasuke have used a pretty large variety of jutsus in each of his fights.
    pointless examples since i've never denied that sasuke uses any of that. What i said is you deny when naruto shows variations in manga(and i merely mentioned what would sasuke's list of jutsu look if we applied the same priniciple to him)...which still stands.

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto vs. ANYBODY: clones + rasengan, rasenshuriken
    I can pretty much sum up every fight Naruto has with make clones, opponent gets confused and gets hit with a rasengan/rasenshuriken.
    and there you go, proving my point about you denying manga facts using your fancy way of 'summing up'...which if one were to use in sasuke's case would reduce him to using 2/3 jutsus as well as i pointed out before.

    Naruto vs Orochimaru: 4tailed beast mode+bizu bomb

    Naruto vs deidara and naruto vs kakuzu: both are more of skirmishes than full blown 1 vs 1 fight...use of kb, rasengan, kyuubi chakra, shuriken, futon rasengan

    Naruto vs Pain: do i really need to go in depth here...kb,summons,genjutsu,taijutsu, frog-fu, smoke bombs, kunai, scroll, rasengan, double rasengan, sage mode rasengan,futon rasenshuriken, kyyubi mode

    look i've lost interest at this point. If you don't read manga,then its not my job to make you read it. Go read the other fights and count the jutsus there, thank you.

    Quote Quote:
    I have backed up all my claims with manga facts. You haven't. All you've been doing is taking a couple of my posts out of context, while ignoring all the evidence I provide.
    Oh i love this. Me ignoring evidence and manga facts and 'your evidence'?i answered you right here and i didn't see you answering to this part of my post:

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher
    And we can ignore summons,as we've done with naruto...we can ignore swordplay and shuriken as we've done with Naruto's taijutsu,scroll,kunai and shuriken...we can ignore katons as we've done with naruto's fuuton and chakra arms...and we can ignore genjutsu as we've done with naruto(here the only difference is sasuke was gifted his genjutsu through genes, and naruto actually has to work to do it by strategies and use of summons.
    How is it me ignoring manga facts?

    i've repeatedly said that i would only say sasuke has two jutsus if i were only to apply your way of ignoring manga facts as you've done with naruto. Either you don't understand plain english or its above your intellect that i following your reasoning(to which i disagree in the 1st place) to show something doesn't mean that I think it to be right.

    What it shows is that your reasoning is faulty and you are the one ignoring manga facts(since your following your reasoning does that,as you yourself has pointed out) and you are being hypocritical trying to use double standards for whom you like and whom you dislike.

    About you being loyal to manga...then go and count the number of jutsus of Naruto in manga and db. Thank you very much.


    Quote Quote:
    At this, I'm tired of arguing with you because its pointless and a waste of my time. You provide no factual arguments and just cries "I know you are, but what am I" like a 5 year old.
    Your point is Naruto uses 2 jutsus. Plz show me any db/manga page where the list of Naruto's jutsu is confined to 2. That will be 'factual arguement'.

    I on the other hand am perfectly prepare to link naruto's db page or the manga pages showing all the jutsus he used...which will amount to much more than 2,as you know. So who is the one doing 'factual argument' here?

    Also i like the way you resorted to personal attack. You are plenty good at that. So stick to that since you can't use logic

    ---------- Post added at 02:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    He basically does. Before it was to make use of his clones to land a hit with a Rasengan, while now it has become simply rushing forward and landing a hit with his Rasengan.
    There you go into semantics again with that 'basically' word. The finishing move isn't the only thing that a tactics comprises of, its only a part of it...and every step leading upto that point is a constituting factor for the tactics. "landing hit" is the 'basic' tactic for every ninja.


    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke's one of the main characters, he's not gonna die. And we have never seen any losing ninja run away or beg, so it's hardly unique to Sasuke.
    Jiraya was one of the main characters, he died. We've seen B fleeing, we've seen kisame hiding, we've seen the rest of taka get caught when defeated. So whenever sasuke didn't win...kishimoto was there with the plot make-up to make sure that it doesn't look like sasuke lost either, not letting him go through any consequence that a lost person have to. So what's the point then?

    BTW: which fights you consider Sasuke to have lost?

    Quote Quote:
    Regardless, the point is that Sasuke isn't just given a win when he doesn't earn it. No one magically has a change of heart towards him.
    Apparently you feel this is the point. That you think that outcomes of sasuke battle weren't as 'magical', and him losing sometimes validates his wins as fair. You do forget that three/four of the worst 'magical' PNJ happened with sasuke fights:

    1. Somehow Sharingan gained an unprecedented and never-to-be-seen-again power to turn your opponent's jutsu directly on your opponent when sasuke beat orochimaru's body transfer jutsu. Its not countering with same jutsu as kakashi does, cause sasuke was never shown to be capable of copying instantly like kakashi or that he can do body transfer.

    2. Sasuke getting walkover from Itachi

    3. Sasuke being able to summon manda when he didn't have any chakra left against deidara. Not only that, the swiftness with he had to capable of summoning and hiding in it after the bomb detonated at such close range is totally incongruous with his normal jutsus, in fact its incongruous for any ninja shown so far(perhaps except minato). Meaning it was impossible, PNJ

    4. Hate causing him to break free of seal against danzo...unprecedented, never-to-happen-again capability of Hatred.

    So i don't see how these are not getting rewarded by wins when he should've lost

    About change of heart allowing naruto to win...only one instance can be found which can be remotely accused of that, which is Nagato vs Naruto. Funnily enough, Naruto was not in any apparent position to lose at the point when Nagato had the 'change of heart'(unlike how sasuke was sure to lose against danzo when Hate intervened). They agreed not to fight...how that was avoiding a defeat through change of heart is beyond me, since it was never indicated who had the upperhand at the point. It could be that Nagato was the one who avoided the humiliation of getting beat by naruto just as easily.
    Last edited by ashher; December 27, 2011 at 03:06 AM.

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  14. #70
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher
    In which cases he gets healed back to new(in the middle of the fight i might add), and a new summon. So what price? did he lose the battle because of these things? Has he become handicapped or blind? No. What consequence man?


    Niether of which happened in the same fight. And yes, he lost fights thanks to the burden of the MS. He was stricken legally blind in his fight against Kakashi and had to forfiet (aka: LOSE). Likewise he couldn't continue fighting Mei because his constant use of Susanoo had wasted what remaining chakra he had left, causing yet another character to save him. That's two fights where he would've lost thanks to his MS if someone else hadn't saved him.

    Naruto however doesn't get saved from his opponents when the Kyuubi is breaking it's seal. On the contrary, his allies save his opponents from HIM. It's the complete opposite. One ninja's power causes him to need help to win a fight. The other ninja's power causes him to need people to calm him down after he's already won. Naruto has NEVER been in danger of losing a fight thanks to the Kyuubi, whereas Sasuke has already lost TWO thanks to constant MS usage.


    Quote Quote:
    Did i ever deny that kyuubi risk was handled eventually? About not requiring any work of his own, how is that any worse than Zetsu feeding sasuke? In fact...naruto had to do something as a consequence in that very battle, that's not using kyuubi chakra any longer. on the other hand sasuke was free to go back to spamming MS.
    You claimed that Naruto has consequences during battle from the Kyuubi, same as Sasuke has with the MS. I'm simply showing you that he doesn't, because they're always taken care of for him. As for it being different from Zetsu feeding Sasuke, the difference is that Sasuke couldn't fight afterwards. He didn't get any stronger, he was just capable of living (the chakra taken from Mei was just enough to keep him from dying, or else Karin wouldn't have needed to heal him afterwards). Another massive difference is the fact that the same exact problem happened to him again in the next damn fight, whereas Naruto's Kyuubi breaking out is taken care of against Pein, then isn't a threat anymore. It was a clear gimme, and after that, never a problem again.

    Sasuke's price he pays for power is constant, balanced, and greater than Naruto's. It's simple fact for anyone not trying as hard as you are to delude themselves.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, i remember 'hate' coming to rescue him from danzo's seal(i don't want to embarrass you by linking,if you want i can though)...its worse than some other character helping out. HATE come and break seals...wow, that's a cool story if ever was one. And what about the cure of his blindness? He invented a medicine now did he? oh i forgot he got a free gift from his brother...

    No you don't. Sasuke didn't gain any strength from his hate, he simply pushed himself harder because he was angry. It's no different from Jiraiya, despite his heart stopping, managing to write his code on Fukusaku's back. He was still working within the limits of the strength his body had, he was just ignoring his pain. All Sasuke did was activate a jutsu that didn't require his body to move. It's literally no different from Naruto creating chakra arms without moving.
    Granted, he reached the next level of Susanoo this way, but that's because that's how the MS reaches it's next level: through the body being physically pushed to it's limits. You're either trying too hard, or not trying hard enough, I can't figure out which.


    Quote Quote:
    So what? did he lose the previous fight or got permanently handicapped in his previous fight with MS, because he couldn't get to EMS at that time.?No. All the blurring of vision was conveniently kept out from actually affecting the results of sasuke fights.
    Yes he did lose. He wanted to kill them, his blindness and exhaustion wouldn't let him, so he FLED. That's a LOSS. The blurred vision allowed him to get caught with his pants down by Sakura and also forced him to give up. Same thing happened against Mei, but it was exhaustion instead of loss of eyesight.


    Quote Quote:
    Yeah just cause you have to bedrest for weeks in flu does not make it anymore dangerous than a stroke, which takes seconds. Naruto's risk not only involved his own life, but the whole village. Compared to that sasuke was nothing.

    ...

    That's not even the point. The point is that one character's risk not only eliminated any chance of him losing the fight, but it repaired any and all damage he had recieved prior, and was instantly, INSTANTLY corrected without him lifting a damn finger. The other ninja however:

    1: Lost his eyesight
    2: had to forfiet his battle (lose)
    3: was out of commission for practically a month, deminishing the amount of time he could've been using to train, gather supplies, etc.

    You're not gonna spin this any other way than what it actually is. And even if you did, someone else is waisting their time correcting you. I'm done.

  15. #71
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Niether of which happened in the same fight.
    Pardon me,but i thought sasuke was healed back to life twice in his fight against B. And Zetsu saved his gut from getting fried by supplying him with chakra against Mei.

    Quote Quote:
    And yes, he lost fights thanks to the burden of the MS. He was stricken legally blind in his fight against Kakashi and had to forfiet (aka: LOSE).
    no, the match was left unfinished. Had he been defeated, then he'd have died since kakashi was going for the kill. not one panel shows any 'fleeing'...don't twist things around when it was clearly tobi's intervention which stopped fight from progressing and not sasuke's blindness. (and he wasn't even trying to win/kill kages, all he was trying to do is get away from them which he did successfully)

    Quote Quote:
    Likewise he couldn't continue fighting Mei because his constant use of Susanoo had wasted what remaining chakra he had left, causing yet another character to save him.
    My point exactly. The best consequence the 'risk of blindness' left was that sasuke had to adopt for it, or rather plot adopted it for him by bringing in other characters and keeping the fights 'unfinished'. No winners.

    Same happened with naruto as 'risks of kyuubi mode and sage mode' necessitated involvement of other characters and adoption for them.

    Quote Quote:
    That's two fights where he would've lost thanks to his MS if someone else hadn't saved him.
    My point again. Note that you said he would've lost (contradicting your previous statement that 'he lost)...but i'm glad you noticed that the fights were left unfinished and other plot elements were brought in so that 'risk of blindness' couldn't actually 'make sasuke lose'...rather would've made him lose...if they were really risks(according to your definition of risk)

    Similarly Naruto would've lost fights had it not been for other interfering plot elements due to 'drawbacks' of sage mode and kyuubi chakra.

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto however doesn't get saved from his opponents when the Kyuubi is breaking it's seal. On the contrary, his allies save his opponents from HIM. It's the complete opposite. One ninja's power causes him to need help to win a fight. The other ninja's power causes him to need people to calm him down after he's already won. Naruto has NEVER been in danger of losing a fight thanks to the Kyuubi, whereas Sasuke has already lost TWO thanks to constant MS usage.
    Boldened part....blatant lie. Naruto will die if kyuubi breaks out in 9tails full form...that's been made clear as the daylight. Naruto has always been in danger of dying if he used kyuubi's chakra...so using kyuubi to win a fight has always carried its risk...as apparent from the fight against orochimaru and pain.


    [QUOTE]You claimed that Naruto has consequences during battle from the Kyuubi, same as Sasuke has with the MS.[/QUTOE]

    It sure had...naruto couldn't use kyuubi chakra after that. i already showed. However i'd still like to point out that i never mentioned about the consequences being in the same fight...though i wouldn't have been wrong if i did.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm simply showing you that he doesn't, because they're always taken care of for him. As for it being different from Zetsu feeding Sasuke, the difference is that Sasuke couldn't fight afterwards.
    This is what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot
    And my very point isn't that there's no drawback to the Kyuubi, it's that Naruto doesn't have to DEAL with them. Ever. Sasuke's MS usage has drawbacks that he suffers from. No one appeared in his brain and gave him more chakra so he could spam Amaterasu. No one repaired his Susanoo for him when it was cracking.
    you claimed no one appeared and gave him more chakra and i'm showing that someone exactly did that(though i couldn't show someone appearing in his brain exactly). Karin saved him, juugo gave him chakra...so your claim about sasuke single handedly dealing with the drawbacks/risks are proven false.

    Did you notice that in the quoted part you claimed in no two senses...that no one takes care of the shit sasuke gets into. You didn't mention about to what extent the intervening persons could manage the damage...and NOW you are trying to make it a factor when your original stance was totally proven false.


    Quote Quote:
    He didn't get any stronger, he was just capable of living (the chakra taken from Mei was just enough to keep him from dying, or else Karin wouldn't have needed to heal him afterwards).
    So what? he should've died there if your claim that none helps sasuke to get out his shit was true...to prove that his risks are real according to your reasoning.

    Sasuke couldn't handle MS, had help....Naruto couldn't handle Kyuubi,had help.

    That Naruto's recovery was better isn't because that Kyuubi chakra was any less dangerous or risky than MS, but it was because Minato is a better help than Karin or Juugo or Zetsu.

    Quote Quote:
    Another massive difference is the fact that the same exact problem happened to him again in the next damn fight, whereas Naruto's Kyuubi breaking out is taken care of against Pein, then isn't a threat anymore. It was a clear gimme, and after that, never a problem again.
    Kyuubi breaking out was a problem vs Orochimaru too.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke's price he pays for power is constant, balanced, and greater than Naruto's. It's simple fact for anyone not trying as hard as you are to delude themselves.
    The 'price' sasuke pays doesn't stop from winning fight, or be prepared for the next fight, leave any permanent damage or doesn't become anything that hasn't been handled through plot elements like other ppl's help in the very same fights those manifest...to make sure that sasuke doesn't die, doesn't lose or be caught or be permanently handicapped...which were supposed to happen if the 'risks' were to kick in...

    So they are theatricals(according to your way of reasoning). Fitted in the plot in such way that doesn't really cost sasuke anything. You can't see that cause you are biased as hell.

    Quote Quote:
    No you don't. Sasuke didn't gain any strength from his hate, he simply pushed himself harder because he was angry.
    'Pushed harder"? what does push harder mean? is breaking a seal like child birth or worse yet , shitting when having a constipation? How does one break a 'seal' by 'pushing harder'? Show one other instance where a 'seal' was broken by 'pushing'. Prove that sealing technique, a special variety of ninjutsu can be broken by 'pushing'.

    Quote Quote:
    It's no different from Jiraiya, despite his heart stopping, managing to write his code on Fukusaku's back. He was still working within the limits of the strength his body had, he was just ignoring his pain. All Sasuke did was activate a jutsu that didn't require his body to move. It's literally no different from Naruto creating chakra arms without moving.

    Granted, he reached the next level of Susanoo this way, but that's because that's how the MS reaches it's next level: through the body being physically pushed to it's limits. You're either trying too hard, or not trying hard enough, I can't figure out which.
    Since you can't figure out...i'll tell you...i don't NEED to try at all. You say its no different from Jiraya and Naruto...while you knowing that it IS...as you yourself said in the boldened part.

    "Granted, he reached the next level of Susanoo this way, but that's because that's how the MS reaches it's next level: through the bodeing physically pushed to it's limy bits."

    What happened there, was:

    1. A jutsu insta-upgrade

    2. A jutsu doing something it was never seen to be able to do before or after...susanoo breaking seals.

    Jiraya neither had a jutsu upgrade, nor he evaded certain death like sasuke did there through sheer PNJ.

    And prey tell where you found the bit of info that "that's how the MS reaches its next level:through the body being physially pushed to its limits"....link any manga page,stating that.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes he did lose. He wanted to kill them, his blindness and exhaustion wouldn't let him, so he FLED. That's a LOSS. The blurred vision allowed him to get caught with his pants down by Sakura and also forced him to give up. Same thing happened against Mei, but it was exhaustion instead of loss of eyesight.
    no he didn't lose, neither did he flee due to eyesight. He stayed a long time after that...had to be stopped by zetsu and tobi from going after naruto...and retreated. Kakashi wanted to kill him, Mei wanted to kill him... if the risks were real(according to your way of judging that's disregarding all other plot elements), Sasuke would've died. Since he didn't he didn't lose.

    Unfinished=/=Lose ; Retreat =/=flee





    Quote Quote:
    That's not even the point.
    What's not even the point, oh this:

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher
    Yeah just cause you have to bedrest for weeks in flu does not make it anymore dangerous than a stroke, which takes seconds. Naruto's risk not only involved his own life, but the whole village. Compared to that sasuke was nothing.
    I see why its not even a point, cause you can't answer to this...cause it totally floors your point about a month of bed rest meaning more dangerous than killing himself along with a whole village.

    Quote Quote:
    The point is that one character's risk not only eliminated any chance of him losing the fight, but it repaired any and all damage he had recieved prior, and was instantly, INSTANTLY corrected without him lifting a damn finger.
    Cause unlike other ninja, lifting the fingers harder won't do jackshit for him...as it shouldn't.
    Both of them needed others to help...how efficiently others could help him is a totally different factor which is neither relevant to whose risk was greater nor who can be credited more personally for dealing with the risks. Both of their credits go out the window once the other person intervenes and saves them

    Quote Quote:
    The other ninja however:

    1: Lost his eyesight
    2: had to forfiet his battle (lose)
    3: was out of commission for practically a month, deminishing the amount of time he could've been using to train, gather supplies, etc.

    You're not gonna spin this any other way than what it actually is. And even if you did, someone else is waisting their time correcting you. I'm done.
    1. Didn't lose his eyesight as he can see
    2. Avoided getting caught or killed or even fleeing(retreat/unfinished0
    3. The actual time when he was vulnerable, he was safely hidden in plot so nobody attacks him and kills him at the time(unlike orochimaru or itachi)

    if the proof or the worth of the risks are to be proven only if they are actually came to happen, then both sasuke and naruto stands at the same plane...that neither of them have any risks cause plot shields.

    you're not gonna spin this any other way than what it actually is. And even if you did, someone else is wasting their time correcting you. I'm done.

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  17. #72
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    I like how, with Sasuke, Chidori variation is cool and he is so clever and smart while, with Naruto, Rasengan variage is lame. Like, Naruto is dumb and boring because he uses improved variation of an A rank jutsu while Sasuke does the same bar the improving part. I find that funny, also because, with Sasuke, we have "swordplay" and "shuriken" while with Naruto's taijutsu one says that it doesn't count, and bla bla bla. Also, wow, summoning a medium size hawk is great, while effortlessy summoning giant toads is, like, childplay.

    I'm not bashing Sasuke, but I really don't like how Naruto is always downplayed, probably because Sasuke's fight were always better showed. Before Pein, Naruto didn't have a fight ( in Part 2 obviously ) when he had his moment to shine:
    against Itachi's replica, he was supporting Kakashi and finished the fight. Same thing against Deidara. He destroyed Oro ( but that was the Kyuubi, not him, so it doesn't count ) and was beaten without effort by Sasuke. Then he goes and finishes Kakuzu ( an S rank nin ) with a single jutsu, and then we have the Pein fight. Imho, while Sasuke's method of fighting is definitely more elegant and thinked through, it lacks in efficency, because he pretty much uses jutsu after jutsu after jutsu while Naruto strikes one-two criticals hits.
    Now, what ppl seems not to understand is that both had almost the same, one can say, "advantages":
    against Pein, Naruto's ass was saved by Yondaime and Hinata, and against Kyuubi he was saved by Kushina. Against previous opponents, he had the help of Kakashi mostly.
    Sasuke, except against Itachi and Deidara ( and excluding attacking a sick oro ) was saved time and time again by Juugo, Karin, Zetsu and Tobi. If they didn't help, he would've died against Bee twice or thrice ( Suigetsu's help was pretty much useless against the bijuu dama ), against Danzo when Karin cured him, against Mei when Zetsu replenished his chakra, against gimlikage when he was saved by Tobi before he was turned do dust.

    They both had their best abilities handed down by someone elses ( Chakra mode by his parents, MS and EMS by Itachi ) at a cost ( Naruto pretty much risked his life time and time again, and put others in danger with Kyuubi's chakra while Sasuke had to live, even if for a short while, with the danger and fear of turning blind ) while being, in their own right, great fighters.
    They are equals, 2 sides of the same coins, and they pretty much put every other characters to shame with their "free" power ups and the like:
    recovering from an almost escaped Kyuubi? Freeing himself from a seal just because of "hate"? You name it, the two have it.
    Imho is silly saying that Naruto or Sasuke has more than the other, because, and that is one of the central themes of the manga, they are equals. That is my opinion, nothing more

    P.s to ppl saying that Sasuke's fights are oh so better and with variety and the like, lets compare Sasuke versus anyone, courtesy of chilibun

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post

    Sasuke vs. Deidara: shunshin+kantana, chidori senbon, chidori spear, snake hands, shurikens+strings, genjutsu, chidori, snake summon
    Sasuke vs. Itachi: genjutsu, shurikens, katon, chidori, body shedding, kirin
    Sasuke vs. Bee: swordplay, chidori, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, chidori spear
    Sasuke vs. Ee and co.: genjutsu, chidori, amaterasu, suanoo, enton
    Sasuke vs. Danzou: susanoo, amaterasu, tsukuyomi, hawk summon, katon, chidori sword and spear
    with Naruto's major fights, that is the ones in when he fighted one on one

    Naruto vs Kakuzu: KB + Rasenshuriken, not much for originality
    Naruto vs Pein: Sage Mode + Rasengan + Frog Kumite ( the equivalent of any of sasuke's "swordfight" ) + Taijutsu fight against Deva Path ( breaking his weapon and all ) + KB + Oodama Rasengan + Rasenrengan + Rasenshuriken ( and I don't include the Kyuubi rampage )
    Naruto vs Kyuubi: Sage Mode + Frog Kumite ( or whatever it gives him the strenght to throw friggin' Kyuubi around like a ball ) + KB + Rasengan Barrage + Rasenshuriken + Oodama Rasengan Barrage
    Naruto vs Raikage: Chakra Mode + Chakra Arms + RasenShuriken + Kage Bushin + Sage Mode + Frog Kumite ( even if I think that the trans isn't exact, is the sensor power of Sage Mode imho that enabled him to dodge Raikage's attack ) + Rasengan
    Naruto vs Everyone at war: Mini rasenshuriken, Kage Bushin, Kuchiyose no Jutsu, triple rasengan, rasenshuriken, oodama rasengan, rasengan barrage, bla bla bla bla bla...
    So, like, I don't see that much difference, except for Naruto vs Kakuzu. It seems like ppl seems stuck at the beginning of Part 2, where Naruto was, pretty much, a loser. And on that, I think, everyone agrees

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  19. #73
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11 - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    There you go into semantics again with that 'basically' word. The finishing move isn't the only thing that a tactics comprises of, its only a part of it...and every step leading upto that point is a constituting factor for the tactics. "landing hit" is the 'basic' tactic for every ninja.
    Then disregard the word basically. All Naruto did before was rely on his clones as a distraction to land a hit with the Rasengan, and now all Naruto does is rush forward and land said hit. Aside from two incidents, his fights all go the same way with the same tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    Jiraya was one of the main characters, he died. We've seen B fleeing, we've seen kisame hiding, we've seen the rest of taka get caught when defeated. So whenever sasuke didn't win...kishimoto was there with the plot make-up to make sure that it doesn't look like sasuke lost either, not letting him go through any consequence that a lost person have to. So what's the point then?

    BTW: which fights you consider Sasuke to have lost?
    A main character? No, Jiraiya at most was a secondary character. Naruto and Sasuke are the only main characters, with everyone else either being secondary or tertiary characters. Kisame hid to gather information, Suigetsu and Juugo didn't beg or anything like that and soon escaped. The only thing that comes close is Kirabi running away and even in that case he wasn't running from the battle but from responsibility. So again, we haven't seen any losing ninja run away or beg for their lives.

    Orochimaru:won, Deidara:won, Itachi:"won", Kirabi:tied, Ee:tied, Mei and Onoki:lost, and Danzo:won.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    Apparently you feel this is the point. That you think that outcomes of sasuke battle weren't as 'magical', and him losing sometimes validates his wins as fair. You do forget that three/four of the worst 'magical' PNJ happened with sasuke fights:

    1. Somehow Sharingan gained an unprecedented and never-to-be-seen-again power to turn your opponent's jutsu directly on your opponent when sasuke beat orochimaru's body transfer jutsu. Its not countering with same jutsu as kakashi does, cause sasuke was never shown to be capable of copying instantly like kakashi or that he can do body transfer.

    2. Sasuke getting walkover from Itachi

    3. Sasuke being able to summon manda when he didn't have any chakra left against deidara. Not only that, the swiftness with he had to capable of summoning and hiding in it after the bomb detonated at such close range is totally incongruous with his normal jutsus, in fact its incongruous for any ninja shown so far(perhaps except minato). Meaning it was impossible, PNJ

    4. Hate causing him to break free of seal against danzo...unprecedented, never-to-happen-again capability of Hatred.

    So i don't see how these are not getting rewarded by wins when he should've lost

    About change of heart allowing naruto to win...only one instance can be found which can be remotely accused of that, which is Nagato vs Naruto. Funnily enough, Naruto was not in any apparent position to lose at the point when Nagato had the 'change of heart'(unlike how sasuke was sure to lose against danzo when Hate intervened). They agreed not to fight...how that was avoiding a defeat through change of heart is beyond me, since it was never indicated who had the upperhand at the point. It could be that Nagato was the one who avoided the humiliation of getting beat by naruto just as easily.
    No, this really isn't the point, as the whole point was that Sasuke's battles hold a whole lot of variety, making them far from "boring and tedious".

    1) Except we already knew that Sharingan can reflect mental techniques back onto their user since all the way back in Part One when Itachi did it to Kurenai.

    2) Not sure at all what this is all about.

    3) Um, Sasuke was never out of chakra against Deidara. And it was shown multiple times in that very battle, that both Sasuke and Deidara were fast enough to preform several actions as an explosion was going off. Heck, we directly saw him summon a snake a a shield against an explosion at the start of the battle. If Deidara can free his arms, create a clay bird, enhance it's size, and jump on it while in the middle of an explosion, Sasuke summoning Manda is nothing.

    4) Sasuke's hatred towards Danzo simply allowed him to draw out more of his Susanoo, which was shown to be connected to his emotional state. Sasuke would have been saved by Susanoo regardless, the only difference would have been whether it had manifested more or not.

    And Naruto was in a position to lose. We know everything Nagato was capable of and had he choose to fight, he would have easily defeated the tired Naruto, considering how he owned chakra cloaked Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    with Naruto's major fights, that is the ones in when he fighted one on one

    Naruto vs Kakuzu: KB + Rasenshuriken, not much for originality
    Naruto vs Pein: Sage Mode + Rasengan + Frog Kumite ( the equivalent of any of sasuke's "swordfight" ) + Taijutsu fight against Deva Path ( breaking his weapon and all ) + KB + Oodama Rasengan + Rasenrengan + Rasenshuriken ( and I don't include the Kyuubi rampage )
    Naruto vs Kyuubi: Sage Mode + Frog Kumite ( or whatever it gives him the strenght to throw friggin' Kyuubi around like a ball ) + KB + Rasengan Barrage + Rasenshuriken + Oodama Rasengan Barrage
    Naruto vs Raikage: Chakra Mode + Chakra Arms + RasenShuriken + Kage Bushin + Sage Mode + Frog Kumite ( even if I think that the trans isn't exact, is the sensor power of Sage Mode imho that enabled him to dodge Raikage's attack ) + Rasengan
    Naruto vs Everyone at war: Mini rasenshuriken, Kage Bushin, Kuchiyose no Jutsu, triple rasengan, rasenshuriken, oodama rasengan, rasengan barrage, bla bla bla bla bla...
    So, like, I don't see that much difference, except for Naruto vs Kakuzu. It seems like ppl seems stuck at the beginning of Part 2, where Naruto was, pretty much, a loser. And on that, I think, everyone agrees
    The only problem being is, that all the Rasengans apart from the FRS, do the exact same thing. Thus there's no reason to count them separately.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; December 27, 2011 at 03:26 PM.

  20. #74
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11 - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Then disregard the word basically. All Naruto did before was rely on his clones as a distraction to land a hit with the Rasengan, and now all Naruto does is rush forward and land said hit. Aside from two incidents, his fights all go the same way with the same tactics.
    If we disregard the word basically, then you what you say becomes totally wrong. As i've said before finishing move isn't the only thing that comprises of tactics.

    Quote Quote:
    A main character? No, Jiraiya at most was a secondary character. Naruto and Sasuke are the only main characters, with everyone else either being secondary or tertiary characters.
    Where was this stated? Sasuke couldn't die even if he lost because he is a main character is a poor excuse in the first place.

    Quote Quote:
    Kisame hid to gather information, Suigetsu and Juugo didn't beg or anything like that and soon escaped. The only thing that comes close is Kirabi running away and even in that case he wasn't running from the battle but from responsibility. So again, we haven't seen any losing ninja run away or beg for their lives.
    they hid,they got caught...none of which happened to sasuke. And we saw ninjas running away in this war.

    What other losing but living ninja we've seen? not anybody that comes to mind.

    So if sasuke was to be such one,losing but living,then he should've shouldered the consequence. So that others(who lost and died) do not show such outcomes does not excuse us from the fact that sasuke should've been written to go through them if his loses were to have any meaning/impact.

    Quote Quote:
    Orochimaru:won, Deidara:won, Itachi:"won", Kirabi:tied, Ee:tied, Mei and Onoki:lost, and Danzo:won.
    So kirabi, A, Mei and Onoki...last three were more of skirmishes though. Sasuke 'losing' them was hardly a factor that added to those fights 'interesting-ness'...since even 'losing' wasn't good enough to stop his 'plotshield'

    Quote Quote:
    No, this really isn't the point, as the whole point was that Sasuke's battles hold a whole lot of variety, making them far from "boring and tedious".
    I don't see any meaningful variety...as he was always guarenteed to live, or get away...because of his plot shield. So they were boring and tedious.


    Quote Quote:
    1) Except we already knew that Sharingan can reflect mental techniques back onto their user since all the way back in Part One when Itachi did it to Kurenai.
    Is body transfer jutsu a genjutsu? Is kurenai's genjutsu equal to Orochimaru's body transfer jutsu in rank and strength and mechanism? can sasuke do what itachi could with genjutsu? what itachi did was called 'reverse genjutsu' or something like that...a particular tech,that sasuke was never stated to be able to do.

    Quote Quote:
    2) Not sure at all what this is all about.
    A win that was awarded to him magically...

    Quote Quote:
    3) Um, Sasuke was never out of chakra against Deidara. And it was shown multiple times in that very battle, that both Sasuke and Deidara were fast enough to preform several actions as an explosion was going off. Heck, we directly saw him summon a snake a a shield against an explosion at the start of the battle. If Deidara can free his arms, create a clay bird, enhance it's size, and jump on it while in the middle of an explosion, Sasuke summoning Manda is nothing.
    Yeah sasuke did burn up is last bit of chakra...http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v40/c362/11.html

    He couldn't even stand up,even his sharingan was gonehttp://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v40/c362/15.html

    everything indicates he was out of chakra.

    and uh...which time you are talking about when you were mentioning Deidara?

    either way, a PNJ in favor of Deidara doesn't stop a PNJ in favor of sasuke from being a PNJ. Also the range is a factor which you gladly overlooked. The last explosion was from nearly point blank,unlike the previous ones.

    Quote Quote:
    4) Sasuke's hatred towards Danzo simply allowed him to draw out more of his Susanoo, which was shown to be connected to his emotional state. Sasuke would have been saved by Susanoo regardless, the only difference would have been whether it had manifested more or not.
    Its only your imagination that saskue would've been save by susanoo eventually since its never stated that susanoo can break seals. Recently we were shown that susanoo couldn't even free its user once his body is caught by mere sand...no reason why it'd able to do so against seal already on the body.

    Quote Quote:
    And Naruto was in a position to lose. We know everything Nagato was capable of and had he choose to fight, he would have easily defeated the tired Naruto, considering how he owned chakra cloaked Naruto.
    No we don't know what the handicapped nagato could do with his real body in his life. We don't know how much toll the attacking jutsus take on his body. Once again nothing but your assumption there. Nagato vs Naruto was a battle that never started...so there is no question of either of them being in a position to lose.

    Quote Quote:
    The only problem being is, that all the Rasengans apart from the FRS, do the exact same thing. Thus there's no reason to count them separately.
    All raiton jutsu sasuke uses pierces. So should we count them as one? No. All the variants of rasengan have different ranges and destructive ability...and the manga counts them as separately...so that's good enough reason to count them seperately.
    Last edited by ashher; December 27, 2011 at 04:25 PM.

  21. #75
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.11 - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    If we disregard the word basically, then you what you say becomes totally wrong. As i've said before finishing move isn't the only thing that comprises of tactics.
    How am I wrong? Naruto's entire tactical style is distract with clones to land the hit with Rasengan. That's all he does most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    Where was this stated? Sasuke couldn't die even if he lost because he is a main character is a poor excuse in the first place.
    The story revolves around Naruto and Sasuke, thus making them main characters. The story has never revolved around Jiraiya.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    they hid,they got caught...none of which happened to sasuke. And we saw ninjas running away in this war.

    What other losing but living ninja we've seen? not anybody that comes to mind.

    So if sasuke was to be such one,losing but living,then he should've shouldered the consequence. So that others(who lost and died) do not show such outcomes does not excuse us from the fact that sasuke should've been written to go through them if his loses were to have any meaning/impact.
    If simply hiding and getting caught is the issue, then Team Taka sneaking into the summit should be enough for you. Regardless, none of them did as you seem to think Sasuke should have done.

    Tobi has lost but still lives, yet he has never beg for his life or ran away. And Sasuke has shouldered the consequences of losing. Getting beaten and going blind are consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    So kirabi, A, Mei and Onoki...last three were more of skirmishes though. Sasuke 'losing' them was hardly a factor that added to those fights 'interesting-ness'...since even 'losing' wasn't good enough to stop his 'plotshield'
    How exactly weren't those fights interesting?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    I don't see any meaningful variety...as he was always guarenteed to live, or get away...because of his plot shield. So they were boring and tedious.
    Unless you're only looking at the outcome, the fights themselves have much variety, seeing how things go and what he'll do and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    Is body transfer jutsu a genjutsu? Is kurenai's genjutsu equal to Orochimaru's body transfer jutsu in rank and strength and mechanism? can sasuke do what itachi could with genjutsu? what itachi did was called 'reverse genjutsu' or something like that...a particular tech,that sasuke was never stated to be able to do.
    It's a mental effect, which is similar to a genjutsu and it wouldn't have to be the same in rank to be countered. Sasuke has shown that he's capable of doing what Itachi could do with genjutsu, outside of manipulating time within Tsukuyomi. And reversing genjutsu is a standard ability of the Sharingan.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    A win that was awarded to him magically...
    How was it awarded to him "magically" when Itachi purposely lost? There's nothing magical about it, since we were told he was literally given the win.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    Yeah sasuke did burn up is last bit of chakra...http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v40/c362/11.html

    He couldn't even stand up,even his sharingan was gonehttp://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v40/c362/15.html

    everything indicates he was out of chakra.

    and uh...which time you are talking about when you were mentioning Deidara?

    either way, a PNJ in favor of Deidara doesn't stop a PNJ in favor of sasuke from being a PNJ. Also the range is a factor which you gladly overlooked. The last explosion was from nearly point blank,unlike the previous ones.
    No he didn't, as we have seen what happens to a ninja who burns up their chakra. And Sasuke turnt off his Sharingan voluntarily, as all he wanted to do was talk with Deidara, otherwise he couldn't have reactivated it soon after. I was speaking about after Sasuke brought down his C2 Dragon. And again, both times with Deidara and Sauske were also at point blank range as the explosions were actually happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    Its only your imagination that saskue would've been save by susanoo eventually since its never stated that susanoo can break seals. Recently we were shown that susanoo couldn't even free its user once his body is caught by mere sand...no reason why it'd able to do so against seal already on the body.
    Susanoo wouldn't have had to break the seal in order to save Sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    No we don't know what the handicapped nagato could do with his real body in his life. We don't know how much toll the attacking jutsus take on his body. Once again nothing but your assumption there. Nagato vs Naruto was a battle that never started...so there is no question of either of them being in a position to lose.
    Edo Nagato was still handicapped, so we do indeed know what he could have done. It's not an assumption when we actually witness them in action.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    All raiton jutsu sasuke uses pierces. So should we count them as one? No. All the variants of rasengan have different ranges and destructive ability...and the manga counts them as separately...so that's good enough reason to count them seperately.
    Um, no. Unlike the Rasengans which all do the exact same thing, the Chidori variations all have different roles and preform different actions from one another. The Rasengans are interchangeable, while the Chidori variations aren't. For example, only the Chidori Spear could have worked against the Hachibi.

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