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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

  1. #901
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Again, I shouldn't need to disprove it. The burden of proof is on the claimant, which is you. I'm glad that you admit that your evidence was flimsy because that was all I wanted to hear. But yet, you still insist that its a real possibility worthy of like pages of discussion because... Oh yes, thats right. It's because its Minato. Says a lot about how you are supposedly impartial though, right. You have already predetermined that its credible for Minato to achieve some random feat, even though you only have flimsy evidence. Hate to call you out buddy, but I hope you see why I said you're bias towards Minato shows.
    I did provide proof. And I did admit my evidence/proof was flimsy and that it could go either way many posts ago. Doesn't make it any less of a possibility. And it's not because it's Minato, I'd say the same for Itachi, Hiruzen, or anyone who's been stated to be a genius. If Minato wasn't said to be a genius, or make indications that he knew what the downside to the jutsu would be, I wouldn't even claim that he'd know.

    It's not even a feat though. Anyone smart and even observant would be able to point that out. I mean, Itachi knew Sasuke was behind him without even looking, and he was even able to hit two Naruto clones by throwing kunai behind him without looking.

  2. #902
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I did provide proof. And I did admit my evidence/proof was flimsy and that it could go either way many posts ago. Doesn't make it any less of a possibility. And it's not because it's Minato, I'd say the same for Itachi, Hiruzen, or anyone who's been stated to be a genius. If Minato wasn't said to be a genius, or make indications that he knew what the downside to the jutsu would be, I wouldn't even claim that he'd know.

    It's not even a feat though. Anyone smart and even observant would be able to point that out. I mean, Itachi knew Sasuke was behind him without even looking, and he was even able to hit two Naruto clones by throwing kunai behind him without looking.
    I'm sorry, you might have to remind me what these evidence are as I only remember stopping Kakashi from running into a group of enemies. Well, that and the he is smart argument. Being smart isn't proof that they are somehow clairvoyant and know everything that their is to know. You still need to provide proof that they have such knowledge. If you had said that Itachi knew how CT works and that blowing up the ball was the weakness simply because Nagato formed a black orb in his hands, I would have called you out as well. Being intelligent doesn't mean they are somehow clairvoyant and know everything there is to know. You still have to prove that they actually know it.

    And yes, I think it would be an incredible feat. Just imagine if it was true. That means he was able to deduce how a jutsu functioned right from the start. I would be able to use that as evidence to suggest that he can deduce the function and weakness of all jutsus just by looking at what seals are made. So yea, that's pretty damn incredible. Noticing and hitting people without actually looking at them is nothing because most shinobis have shown the enhanced senses to do these things.

  3. #903
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    But being smart does explain how someone is able to figure out something. Kakashi's acknowledged as a genius, and he's proven it, so if Kakashi was in similar situation, I'd say the same thing. While Minato hasn't shown the intelligence Kakashi did (like noticing puddles were unnatural or the bunny's fur color being wrong or even guessing about Sakura when she went to "confess" to Naruto), it's been stated he's intelligent. I never said Minato knows everything there is to know, but I don't see why Minato couldn't have at the very least assume what Kakashi would do.

    It's similar to what Itachi did with CT, actually. He didn't know the weakness of CT, he assumed that the black ball would be its weakness. A genius doesn't have to know everything, a genius can just put two and two together to make a good guess like Itachi did.

    It'd be a feat if he knew how a jutsu functioned. It wouldn't be a feat if he guessed it correctly.

  4. #904
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    But being smart does explain how someone is able to figure out something. Kakashi's acknowledged as a genius, and he's proven it, so if Kakashi was in similar situation, I'd say the same thing. While Minato hasn't shown the intelligence Kakashi did (like noticing puddles were unnatural or the bunny's fur color being wrong or even guessing about Sakura when she went to "confess" to Naruto), it's been stated he's intelligent. I never said Minato knows everything there is to know, but I don't see why Minato couldn't have at the very least assume what Kakashi would do.

    It's similar to what Itachi did with CT, actually. He didn't know the weakness of CT, he assumed that the black ball would be its weakness. A genius doesn't have to know everything, a genius can just put two and two together to make a good guess like Itachi did.

    It'd be a feat if he knew how a jutsu functioned. It wouldn't be a feat if he guessed it correctly.
    Ok, I apologize then. You are not biased towards Minato but to intelligence all together, lol. Simply being smart doesn't prove that you have knowledge of something. For example Einstein is a genius, but I have no reason to assume he knows how to fix my car. He still needs to prove that he has that kind of knowledge. You can't just use the "he is smart" as an acceptable proof because it can be applied to nearly anything like saying Shikamaru knowing the secrets of ET because he is smart. Again, you don't make claims then ask why it couldn't be true. You need to prove that it is. Otherwise, I can claim Minato is Santa Clause and ask you to disprove it. You can't, because its fiction and Minato can be anything. The possibilities are endless. All this could have been avoided if you simply just said, "yea, but its not likely" since even you knew you had flimsy evidence. But you kept insisting it as if it is relatively probable. Sigh.... Why, dude. Why?

    Yes,it is similar and I have no reason to assume Itachi knew what CT is or that blowing up the orb would be its weakness when Nagato simply formed it in his hands either. Manga fact is that he only mentioned its weakness after witness it, so thats the only time we can be certain he knows it. Same with Minato. Manga fact has him revealing Chidori's weakness after he saw it, so that's when he knew it. If you want to assume that Minato knew the weakness of Chidori before having any knowledge of it except forming chakra in his hands, then you should provide manga evidence to back it up. Even the assumptions used to explain how he could have possibly deduced it are quite illogical. How is he supposed to deduce that Kakashi will be running out of control with such limited information, especially since it forming the chakra blade has nothing to do with running out of control?

    Knew, guess, calculated, hypothesized, however you want to put it barely matters as it would still be a fact that he correctly deduced a jutsu with basically just activating chakra. That's some OP feat.
    Last edited by chilibun; July 12, 2012 at 02:07 AM.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    That's better.

    True, but it's possible he has that knowledge. Well, depends on the car you have. We can safely assume even the smartest ancient Greek philosophers can't fix your car because it didn't exist in their time, but we can assume Einstein has an idea since cars did exist in his time, but there's likely lots of difference.

    Saying Shikamaru knows how to use ET is different than saying Minato guessed chidori's weakness. Everything is probable.

    Itachi didn't know CT's weakness. Up until it was destroyed, he was guessing what its weakness was. Minato would be doing the same thing as well, and have his guess confirmed by what happened to Kakashi. Kakashi wasn't necessarily out of control, he was just running at tunnel speed adn thus wouldn't have been able to see the enemy counter in time to get out of the way. Neither Raikage would have that problem because they're protected and have heightened reflexes. Rock Lee doesn't really move in straight line.

    Twenty enemies who may be spread out. Kakashi with raiton chakra on his hand that look like it can stab. Why wouldn't Kakashi run at max speed?

    I don't think Minato would have guessed chidori's weakness with just an activation though. Situation probably allowed Minato to guess what Kakashi would do adn thus, its weakness. Not to mention, Kakashi did say it was a yellow flash, like Minato's nickname. It'd be related to speed, considering MInato's speed is what made him known as Yellow Flash.

  6. #906
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @ M3J,

    How did you know Itachi didn't know CT's weakness in advance? He was in Akatsuki for many years as a spy and has knowledge of Rinnegan's abilities and w/e was in that Uchiha tablet which is likely related to RS and the rinnegan. Its absolutely possible. Do you see how easy it is to make assumptions to justify assumptions now? It's basically pointless and proves like nothing. That's why I don't know why you keep insisting on your its "possible" theory when even you yourself know you have flimsy evidence.

    Regarding your theory again, its not simply deducing he that Kakashi will be moving fast, or even just at max speed. Its that he specifically designed a secondary speed skill that completely focuses on one single linear thrust. Forming chakra in his hand does nothing but make a piercing weapon in his hand. How do you go from weapon in hand to must have developed secondary speed skill that gives him tunnel vision? Kakashi could easily just use w/e his regular high speed is to try to get in range. Heck, that lightning chakra can even be shot out like Chidori spear, sebon, kirin, gian, black lightning panther, etc. The possibilities are like limitless. Why would Minato be so certain that a secondary speed skill must somehow been developed to increase its power when all he did was make raiton chakra in his hands? It doesn't make sense at all. If he somehow deduced what Chidori did simply by Kakashi raiton chakra, I'd actually think he is pretty stupid as he jumped to a conclusion and disregarded so many possibilities. He just happened to be right, but for all the wrong reasons.

    Minato had already stopped Kakashi from running out before Kakashi said its just like his nickname. And even then that only implies he would be moving fast. Nothing suggest he would be moving recklessly. Lots of characters move fast without having tunnel vision. Also, if this is when Minato figured it out, then you don't even get the Minato stopped him because he knew the weakness argument because he had already stopped him at this point. So basically, its all assumption and w/e you want it be.

    Like I said, you have little actual manga evidence to bring validity to your theory. But I guess it "could" happen, just like Minato's father being a pink unicorn. Anything is possible. What matters though is what you can prove.
    Last edited by chilibun; July 12, 2012 at 03:54 AM.

  7. #907
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Minato had already stopped Kakashi from running out before Kakashi said its just like his nickname. And even then that only implies he would be moving fast. Nothing suggest he would be moving recklessly. Lots of characters move fast without having tunnel vision. Also, if this is when Minato figured it out, then you don't even get the Minato stopped him because he knew the weakness argument because he had already stopped him at this point. So basically, its all assumption and w/e you want it be.

    Like I said, you have little actual manga evidence to bring validity to your theory. But I guess it "could" happen, just like Minato's father being a pink unicorn. Anything is possible. What matters though is what you can prove.
    • 20 enemies
    • Kakashi says that he will go in, not stay there start shooting things.
    • Request for cover: Why cover? Because he will be in the open, not go around but run at an extensive speed to take them out not enabling them to flee or counter attack And if they do, Minato has to cover him, because he won't be able to react fast enough because he is going to the next enemy not to lose any speed.
    • Minato has knowledge about the rasengan: His experience tells him that such a type of attack has to be used on the oponent's body, as the chakra is concentrated in the hand. Shooting it would lessen the entensity, would decrease the effectiveness.

    Comparing it to Kirin, an advanced chidori/katon S-rank technique. Yep, they will just keep standing there waiting for the attack to load up. To Senbon, eh it's Minato's task to guard him, both doing the same, throwing needles and kunai's wouldn't make sense. Same with Gian.
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  8. #908
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    @ Schabrak,

    Er, this has nothing to do with Kishi explaining every single thought going through his characters. This has to do with people making up stuff with little to no evidence and then trying to claim it as a manga fact, which seems to happen most with Minato fanboys. Please try to even understand what is being discussed or I'm not even going to bother responding.

    @ Jaymizzo,

    Yes, because being Minato and smart is good enough to prove any BS you make up. Point taken. The ONLY manga fact that is presented is that Minato stopped him from running brashly into a group of enemies. Everything else is more assumptions made to prove an assumption.

    @ Uchiha_Blood,

    If you'd bother read through everything discussed (yes, I know its ridiculously long at this point), I have already pointed out that there is reason to expect that Kakashi could use speed to get into melee range, but that is not the issue. Claiming he knew the weakness of Chidori means that he knew Kakashi somehow created a secondary speed rush skill and that he would out control when using it. How do you even deduce that from forming chakra in your hands, which is nothing more than making a destructive weapon in your hand, like a rasengan or even a damn kunai. The secondary speed rush ability is not generated, required, or even a general property of using Raiton manipulation.

    I admit I didn't fully read every single post, they were too many

    I believe the problem lies in the mechanics of Chidori, which, since part 2, made no sense whatsoever.
    The jutsu is ( was is the better verb up to this point ) as effective because the user rushes at the opponent, on this we all agree.
    Now, how can a stab attack be useful? Only if the user is so fast that the opponent can't dodge, Chidori is basically a nintaijutsu, since it involves close range combat.
    Yondaime couldn't expect Kakashi to be slow, using a Chidori in that way, without outstanding speed, would've been utterly foolish.

    What is the weakness of an attack such as this?
    Tunnel vision, as you well said even Lee deducted as much.

    Now, if the only point of the discussion is that Kakashi's speed is only Raiton induced then we can resolve it with a single scan:
    This one. Kakashi made Sasuke train in taijutsu and speed because, otherwise, Chidori would be useless, meaning that the user needs an high base speed of his own.
    Gai confirms this later on, also confirming that someone as observant and experienced as Yondaime could come up with the properties of the jutsu at first glance.
    So basically you, M3J and Schabrak are all apparently correct.

    Case closed

    On a side note I can understand your frustration towards characters such as Yondaime, they can't be bashed in fighting situations because they are made, for all intent and purpose, as perfect as they can be.
    We can argue that he was a big fail in condemning his son to 13 years of loneliness or that he is a boring character because he is seemingly the classic shounen hero stereotype

  9. #909
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    @ M3J,

    How did you know Itachi didn't know CT's weakness in advance? He was in Akatsuki for many years as a spy and has knowledge of Rinnegan's abilities and w/e was in that Uchiha tablet which is likely related to RS and the rinnegan. Its absolutely possible. Do you see how easy it is to make assumptions to justify assumptions now? It's basically pointless and proves like nothing. That's why I don't know why you keep insisting on your its "possible" theory when even you yourself know you have flimsy evidence.
    Took him too long to react, though.

    Assumptions that make sense are better than assumptions that don't. No matter how small a chance, there's still a chance. You're such a negative nelly, Sally.

    Quote Quote:
    Regarding your theory again, its not simply deducing he that Kakashi will be moving fast, or even just at max speed. Its that he specifically designed a secondary speed skill that completely focuses on one single linear thrust. Forming chakra in his hand does nothing but make a piercing weapon in his hand. How do you go from weapon in hand to must have developed secondary speed skill that gives him tunnel vision? Kakashi could easily just use w/e his regular high speed is to try to get in range. Heck, that lightning chakra can even be shot out like Chidori spear, sebon, kirin, gian, black lightning panther, etc. The possibilities are like limitless. Why would Minato be so certain that a secondary speed skill must somehow been developed to increase its power when all he did was make raiton chakra in his hands? It doesn't make sense at all. If he somehow deduced what Chidori did simply by Kakashi raiton chakra, I'd actually think he is pretty stupid as he jumped to a conclusion and disregarded so many possibilities. He just happened to be right, but for all the wrong reasons.
    How do you know he developed a secondary speed skill? And it wouldn't necessarily be secondary.

    Senbon would not work because enemies are hiding. Spear would not work because Kakashi does not know where the enemies are. Kirin is apparently Sasukek's technique. None of these attack make sense in the situation they were in except for running and stabbing. As far as we know, only Sasuke was able to create chidori variants while Kakashi honed it into a sharp blade.

    Situation would have caused Minato to guess what Kakashi would do. People ignore situations too much. Jiraiya fans ignore how and why Jiraiya was able to get into Sage Mode, just as Minato fans ignore or delude themselves into thinking the kunai would have pierced A's cloak or taken him down.

    Quote Quote:
    Minato had already stopped Kakashi from running out before Kakashi said its just like his nickname. And even then that only implies he would be moving fast. Nothing suggest he would be moving recklessly. Lots of characters move fast without having tunnel vision. Also, if this is when Minato figured it out, then you don't even get the Minato stopped him because he knew the weakness argument because he had already stopped him at this point. So basically, its all assumption and w/e you want it be.
    Kakashi would be moving recklessly either way, even if he didn't go as fast as he did.

  10. #910
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @ Uchiha_Blood,

    All taijutsu would require the user to have speed to get into melee range, but nobody has moved with this tunnel vision to do so. Why would you suddenly expect Kakashi to have tunnel vision because he made Chakra in his hands, even if you think that it is a melee range jutsu? Gai knows how Chidori works and is explaining a bunch of Chidori stuff that Minato has no knowledge of. If he didn't, I doubt he'll link speed with must be a raiton stab. Lee also deduced it after witnessing the justsu. Minato apparently is the only one who deduce the tunnel vision weakness of chidori from having chakra in Kakashi's hand, because he is smart.

    @ M3J,

    Took too long for Itachi to do what? Explain the weakness of the justsu, just like how Minato didn't explain the jutsu until after witnessing it...

    It has to be a developed secondary speed skill because we know that it isn't necessary for you to use Chidori. It is only used to maximize its piercing ability. And if you are saying that Kakashi already had that speed prior to Chidori, then why didn't Minato warn him earlier. That speed would cause tunnel vision with or without the raiton blade.

    The point is that the jutsu could have been anything, not just those justsus specifically. There are like limitless potentials for just having chakra in your hands, so how can you possibly deduce that the jutsu must cause tunnel vision? Senbon and spear also would work because he would be able to use it at a safer distance, and avoid getting chopped in half.

    All Kakashi did was form a raiton weapon in his hands, so imagine its something else like a rasengan or even a kunai. Given the exact situation, are you going assume he would be running with tunnel vision speed? If you did, then you would be dead wrong.

    Right, but you are using Kakashi being stopped as supposed evidence to support you theory. If Kakashi is going to be stopped regardless, how does it suggest that Minato did it because he knew the weakness? It doesn't.
    Last edited by chilibun; July 12, 2012 at 06:10 PM.

  11. #911
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    No, to actually tell the jinchuuriki its weakness. If I recall, he was concentrating and looking. Why not just tell Naruto and Bee right off the bat to use their most powerful jutsu?

    Why would Kakashi go so fast? Maybe he had no reason to use intense speed at the time, he could have overestimated his speed and the risk. Minato most likely wanted to let Kakashi learn from his mistakes and was confident he could save Kakashi if need be. Many teachers let their students make their own mistakes so they can learn.

    But, you're not looking at the situation at hand. If there were enemies in front of Kakashi, then there'd be more possibilities of attacks that he could do. But, with the enemies hiding and far away, why would anyone assume Kakashi would do chidori senbon or chidori spear? Him running fast to stab makes more sense.

    Once again, depends on the situation. And I can't really answer that since I already have knowledge of teh jutsu.

    Nor does it suggest Minato didn't know or guess what Kakashi was going to do. For all we know, Minato could have helped Kakashi increase his speed.

  12. #912
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @ M3J,

    Please look up the "Burden of Proof." You made the claim that Minato knew, so you need to prove that he did. I should't have to prove that he didn't know, because that is impossible to do. It's all just made up afterall.

    Itachi couldn't have known because he looked at the jutsu... Well, Minato looked at the justu and waited till Kakashi face got cut up, but thats acceptable.

    I am absolutely looking at the situation at hand, and there is no telling what that justsu is. The possibilities are endless. Jumping into a conclusion without proper reason just makes you stupid. Congratulations. Minato knew Chidori's weakness but is a complete idiot because he jumped into a conclusion without reason. How you can even assume Raiton hand + 20 hiding enemies = tunnel vision is beyond me.

    Again, you can't prove an assumption with more assumptions. You basically wrote your own story here. Like I said, I can claim Minato knew the weakness of Chidori because of Kakashi's shoes and you can't disprove it. Trying to prove an assumption with more assumption is flawed. I don't know why you keep insisting as if you have any valid manga evidence.

    I'm done with this. If you still don't understand the difference between using the manga to prove a theory and making up stuff just so you can justify a theory then its pointless. You can make up anything you want, you just don't have any manga evidence to back it up.
    Last edited by chilibun; July 12, 2012 at 07:55 PM.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Just realized that the movie and the manga are synchronised.

    Next week (well, 2 weeks for us since we get the chapter 5 days early) will have Tobi using the Juubi (he said it was time last time we saw him) and using his Moon Eye Plan in the movie.

    July 23rd : chapter 594 and movie special chapter (July 18th for us)
    July 28th : Road to Ninja released !

    Surely that can't be a coincidence and the movie genjutsu is the real deal. That would be epic troll otherwise.
    Most likely, that's why Naruto's fight has been put on hold. 20 chapters (5 months !) without seeing this fight at all with the exception of couple of panels here or there, and suddenly, without warning, Kishi goes all out with the Juubi and Tobi saying he is ready to pull it off !
    Last edited by Rahan; July 12, 2012 at 10:46 PM.

  14. #914
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    @ M3J,
    Please look up the "Burden of Proof."
    For three pages people tell you in your face that there is no hard evidence, that it's mostly about assumptions and rational thinking, you on the other hand keep repeating this sentence endlessly, give, give, give, proof, proof, proof, how!? And why are you doing that? Because you can't accept that in manga the readers have deduce some things for themself sometimes. You are a hopeless case, stuck in your own position that it's not possible to do so, not able to acknowledge that the reasoning brought up could be very well possible and right.

    If you can't think of a reason why the need to take out twenty enemies in as a short time as possible by a direct combat attack could cause some kind of tunnel vision[after it's been explained countless times already], you are clearly demonstrating your unwillingness to take part in a contructive discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
    Just realized that the movie and the manga are synchronised.
    Yeah, it's known that the movie will be taking an alternative take on the Moon-eye situation. After all the movie depicts the vision of Tobi's plan working to some degree.

    EDIT
    Well sorry, while editing the first sentence, the no has gone missing, for that I apologize. Before it was "no evidence", wanted to add a hard inbetween. You saw the result above. But you could have come up with that error yourself after the last few posts of mine.
    Last edited by Schabrak; July 13, 2012 at 12:16 PM. Reason: EDIT: lol
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  15. #915
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @ Schabrak,

    Actually, M3J flat out said he had flimsy evidence. Jaymizzo just called me a Minato hater and didn't seem to interested in the actual argument. Uchiha_Blood made 2 posts that I made counter arguments for so I can't really tell if he thought he had hard evidence or not. So no, the only person who think there is "hard evidence" is you who just happened to made up most it. But please, make more stuff up. You're really good at it.

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