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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

  1. #1036
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Itachi & Jutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    I think you either misunderstood the whole point of this or i am. Im of the understanding that we are comparing people with theyre abilities taken away, i.e. If i take away Hiraishin from Minato, it means Tobi, Ee and Bee lose theyre respective Jutsu.

    I believe that Itachi still would be Kage level, he has great intellect and deductive abilities, it doesnt take him long to figure out a Jutsus or characters weakness. He still is decent/good in Ninjutsu and i dont think his genjutsu should diminish that much. He also has speed in both seals and movement aswell as reflexes.
    I was of the understanding that we take away Itachi or Minato's powers (Sharigan and Hirashin) and see how they would stack up against everyone if they still had everything.

    Now, Itachi's skill with deduction is probably unmatched, and his physical skills speak for themselves. Saying that, he would lack killing power for the upper echelon ninja like Orochimaru, Raikage, Jiraiya, etc if he lost the Sharigan. Also keep in mind, his ability to pick people apart and figure out their jutsu and strategy is partially a bi-product of his Sharigan.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  2. #1037
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    So Neji>> Itachi right?

    I don't know how you can consider his taijutsu to be beast when he kick one person lol. He showed one ninjutsu outside of Sharingan...to each it's own, we can agree to disagree.
    He generally showed to be more adept than Sasuke, even in their bout Sasuke had to go mid-range since he was getting his ass kicked by Itachi in close range, and let's not forget him keeping up comfortably with Bee and Naruto.
    All three of them were screwing around, but still, Itachi was showed to be pretty good in taijutsu.
    And he didn't show only a jutsu, he showed that suiton thingy, same Katons Sasuke used apart the dragons, a proficency with both Crow Bushins and Kage bushins ( with explosions too! ), incredible kunai work and immense analytical skills.

    Itachi was a pimp, right behind fucking Danzou

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Hey, his screwup brought us Itachi and Jiraiya. I ain't complaining.

    Oh, and technically Naruto too because of the Kyuubi.
    Well think about it, if you see your younger son going batshit crazy, why give him the eyes?
    Hell crazy people always showed their true colors early in this manga ( Gaara, Orochimaru, Sasuke ) so why give him Rin'negan?
    To hell with it, die with your powers and leave nothing to your sons, so they will learn to stand on their own two feets

    Quote Quote:
    That's probably because of Gai. He's such a sir.

    I don't think it'd make much of a difference, except for against Jiraiya. Jiraiya would probably be owned quickly, and who knows with Kyuubi Naruto? But so far, Orochimaru has pwned almost all but Itachi and Sasuke...

    oh right, Orochimaru would have had a better chance against them both. As it stands though, I think only Jiraiya and possibly Tsunade are equal to Orochimaru/each other. Sasuke is inferior, while Itachi... probably the same?

    Ironically, I think either brothers could beat Jiraiya (post timeskip Sasuke, actually). I'm excluding both brothers' use of genjutsu against Orochimaru and JIraiya, hence the trouble against Orochimaru. I also think Orochimaru could break out of Sasuke's regular genjutsu.

    But, I'm probably giving him too much credit.
    Sharingan Genjutsu = unbreakable, this is manga logic, sadly.
    At least Uchiha haters can gloat about the fact that Tayuya > their favourite Uchiha in genjutsu usage

    Quote Quote:
    Better than being threatened to be killed by fodders. :| And Kushina wasn't the one who put Kyuubi in Naruto, it was Minato. Though if I were a character in Naruto, I'd thank Minato profusely because that's why Naruto is, or was, epic. The shitty childhood he had because of the Kyuubi made him a hard-as-nails mothereffer that made Part I Naruto awesome.

    Naw, they probably solo'd some Edo Tensei! Mark my words!
    Yeah well, even if he made me awesome I too would give him one, just to, you know, feel better with myself.
    Instead of all that sappy things, I would've asked him to teach me Hiraishin, screw manga characterization, that jutsu is too useful.

    Imho they are on a beach, enjoying life while their comrades fight to the death, and at the end they'll swoop in and end Edo Madara, taking all the credit.

    Quote Quote:
    It's why I'm hoping Jiraiya doesn't get brought back. Jiraiya, Itachi, and Minato were epic every time they appeared. Then Itachi's character got worse becuase of Edo Tensei, and the moment to show his potential was ruined because Kishi felt like coming up with a bullshit jutsu.

    It would have been a perfect chance to show Sasuke's repertoire. There's no way he couldn't have picked up a lot more jutsu under Orochimaru, especially considering what Orochimaru researched. At the very least, show the brothers' teamwork without resorting to Mangekyo. So much potential in this fight for either Uchiha and Kabuto, but nooooo, Kishi had to ruin that.
    My thoughts exactly, I can't add a thing good sir

    Quote Quote:
    A clone that had help/info from Killerbee. Without that, who knows how long it'd have taken for Naruto to come up with the Third Raikage hurting himself? In Sage MOde, Naruto would have probably been beaten by A. I have no idea how his endurance is, though, so maybe he could have survived bijuu bombs. Sage Mode does put Naruto on a different level, but his level in my opinion is nowhere near Jiraiya's due to lack of jutsu. It's a shame because Naruto could make Sage Mode an absolute beast with jutsu like Swamp of the Underworld and teamwork with one of the toads, preferably Gamakichi. Although I don't believe Naruto to be on kage level, he can get there by learning more jutsu.

    I don't think so, unless he can get out of MS level genjutsu and avoid Amaterasu. I could see him obliterating Susano'o, but I think it depends on whose. Sasuke's arrows are pretty fast, and I don't think Naruto can do what Kabuto did. Itachi's Susano'o is virtually unbeatable with the Yata Shield, and Madara's Susano'o can achieve perfection and power that we haven't seen from any Susano'o so far. Or even from bijuu, I think?
    It still takes good amounts of capacity to pull off what Naruto did, he didn't simply dodge, he made a strategy, runned at him, waited, dodged and striked at the same time.
    It was pretty damn cool if you ask me.
    As a ninja I agree, Jiraiya is still best, but Naruto made Sage Mode his own, just like every few things he learns:
    Naruto's Sage Mode is insane, he could perfectly sense the whole battlefield, his strenght is on Tsunade's level and his ninjutsu is deadly in power and range, overpower Kyuubi is no easy feat, expecially if you don't have haxed innate abilities.

    Even before being helped by Kushina Naruto had the upper hand, it got worse because he was trying to absorb Kyuubi's chakra:
    it that was a match, instead of pulling chakra Naruto would've followed with a FRS to the face.

    I doubt Susano'o Arrows > A's speed, hell Danzou could react to them just fine.

    Quote Quote:
    I think Itachi would fare better against Bee. However, I'm not sure about his skills with using kunai as sword, so maybe not. But out of swordsmanship, I think Itahci would do better than you give him credit for.
    I dunno, if Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't follow Bee's swords I doubt a Sharingan-less Itachi could do it.
    And he doesn't have phoenix downs to revive his ass

    Quote Quote:
    Proven wrong by the Uchiha Massacre.
    It was done by Uchihas.
    My statement stands

    Quote Quote:
    How is Itachi better than Fugaku? The flashback didn't show Fugaku fighting at all, if I recall.
    Fugaku himself implied it, and Sasuke flat out said it.
    Mikoto too said pretty much that Itachi was an anomaly in the clan, with just how much raw talent he had.

  3. #1038
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    So are we taking into account every single little praise?
    Kabuto praised Naruto saying that, if he took control of his own enormous chakra, he would be unstoppable, do I need to consider Naruto > All?
    Tobi, Oro and Bee praised his Sharingan, again.
    What? You commented as if people only praised sasuek in regards to his sharingan and that only Deidara spoke of his speed. I responded that various skilled ninjas have praised Sasuke beyond just his Sharingan and that three of the ones who praised him were also the only ones to praised Minato and Naruto. And Orochimaru remarking that Sasuke is a greater genius then he was at the same age is not praised of the Sharingan. Same with Tobi and Kirabi's comment about his strength. Sasuke's strength is not solely granted from the Sharingan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    You just confirmed what I said, guys like Itachi and Yondaime are anomalies, while Sasuke is a pretty talented guy, but just that.
    No one said he is crap, we ( or at least I ) said he, without the Sharingan, is a pretty strong guy, Jounin level at best.
    Sasuke was not just compared with a Sannin, but one of the smartest people in the entire series. Him not being as impressive as Itachi in no way changes that he would still be more impressive then most, since his intelligences has nothing to do with his Sharingan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    As for Bee's attack, try again, not only Bee's attack was ridiculously easy to dodge thanks to the Sharingan ( Sasuke said so himself, it was easy to predict since it was straightforward ), but this goes for any attack against faster opponents:
    against Gaara, against Naruto in part 1 he dodged only because he had the Sharingan, he was pretty specific against Gaara:
    "without those eyes, I would be dead".
    Don't forget that Danzou, a guy 80 years old way past his prime, kept up with Sasuke in close range, to the point Sasuke had to rely on Susano'o spammage to stand a chance.
    I'm not dissing Sasuke, but he isn't the next Rikudou Sennin either. At least up to this point
    Easy to dodged? Yeah, it was so easy that only Ee had ever done so before. The Sharingan doesn't grant magically evading powers, the person still needs to have the actual skills to move and act fast enough. And you do remember that not only did Danzo have Hashirama's stamina and Izanagi, but his own Sharingan to aid him. Let's not act like Danzo wouldn't have naturally been dead in amoment had he not had any of those tools or that he forced Sasuke to do anything. Sasuke used Susanoo beause it was the easiest way to deal with Izanagi.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    I would agree had the Raikages attack not been extremely linear and not easy to dodge. Sasuke has said once or twice that the only reason he has been able to dodge or keep up with said people was because of theyre linear movements.

    Sasuke does not have comparable speed to v1 Cloaked Ee.
    He would have to, else he wouldn't be capable of moving to avoid it in the first place, regardless of having the Sharingan. The whole incident with Lee before the chuunin exam was over this fact, that while the Sharingan's prediction allowed Sasuke to see an event before it happened, he still had to be fast enough to act on the information otherwise he would still be left open to being hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Where do you get that from?
    As mentioned, his fight with Gaara. Gai and Lee both commented that Sasuke had gained speed equal to his weightless speed. And since physical enhancement has nothing to do with the Sharingan, the lack of a Sharingan wouldn't eliminate his potential to gain such speeds.

  4. #1039
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    He generally showed to be more adept than Sasuke, even in their bout Sasuke had to go mid-range since he was getting his ass kicked by Itachi in close range, and let's not forget him keeping up comfortably with Bee and Naruto.
    All three of them were screwing around, but still, Itachi was showed to be pretty good in taijutsu.
    And he didn't show only a jutsu, he showed that suiton thingy, same Katons Sasuke used apart the dragons, a proficency with both Crow Bushins and Kage bushins ( with explosions too! ), incredible kunai work and immense analytical skills.
    Honestly, I think Naruto was going easy. He wasn't trying to attack, just defend so he could talk to Itachi. Killerbee might have been more serious.

    Quote Quote:
    Well think about it, if you see your younger son going batshit crazy, why give him the eyes?
    Hell crazy people always showed their true colors early in this manga ( Gaara, Orochimaru, Sasuke ) so why give him Rin'negan?
    To hell with it, die with your powers and leave nothing to your sons, so they will learn to stand on their own two feets
    I think the older son had the eyes years before Rikudou Sennin passed away. Maybe the genetic mutation Rikudou Sennin had enabled the elder son to inherit the Rinnegan and younger to inherit the body.

    In the manga, yes. In the flashbacks, it was different. Gaara was a good kid who cared about others. Sasuke was teh same. Orochimaru... well, he didn't really show his creepy, sadistic side when talking to Hiruzen about white snakes. Most characters' flashbacks showed them as good, despite their early appearance. Hell, even Sasuke turned more positive the more time he spent with Team 7, even relying on Naruto at one point to help out.



    Quote Quote:
    Sharingan Genjutsu = unbreakable, this is manga logic, sadly.
    At least Uchiha haters can gloat about the fact that Tayuya > their favourite Uchiha in genjutsu usage
    Only applies for Itachi's Tsukuyomi when he controls time and probably Madara's genjutsu. Oh, and I think Kakashi's as well. Otherwise we saw Sharingan genjutsu and even MS genjutsu broken by Bee, Danzou, Sasuke, and few others. Orochimaru was also able to make an attempt to break out until Itachi cut his hand off.



    Quote Quote:
    Yeah well, even if he made me awesome I too would give him one, just to, you know, feel better with myself.
    Instead of all that sappy things, I would've asked him to teach me Hiraishin, screw manga characterization, that jutsu is too useful.

    Imho they are on a beach, enjoying life while their comrades fight to the death, and at the end they'll swoop in and end Edo Madara, taking all the credit.
    Don't think Hiraishin would be easy to teach in someone's mind when the teacher himself has limited chakra.

    With an attack that's equal to the power of all nine bijuu. And then Madara will say "so there is someone who rivals Hashirama in power. But you don't have his charisma!"




    Quote Quote:
    It still takes good amounts of capacity to pull off what Naruto did, he didn't simply dodge, he made a strategy, runned at him, waited, dodged and striked at the same time.
    It was pretty damn cool if you ask me.
    As a ninja I agree, Jiraiya is still best, but Naruto made Sage Mode his own, just like every few things he learns:
    Naruto's Sage Mode is insane, he could perfectly sense the whole battlefield, his strenght is on Tsunade's level and his ninjutsu is deadly in power and range, overpower Kyuubi is no easy feat, expecially if you don't have haxed innate abilities.
    Sasuke, Itachi, or Kakashi could do the same. Maybe Jiraiya as well. Minato definitely could. I don't find that as impressive, but I'm probably being unfair comparing it to Naruto's past feats, which have been pretty good.

    Only way he did was by shortening the time it takes to get into Sage Mode. Otherwise he's done everything that a perfect Sage Mode user should be able to do. Though, he's given FRS a new power. FRS can be used in two ways now, or probably three ways: base mode, Sage Mode, and Kyuubi Chakra mode.

    Dunno about his strength bein on Tsunade's level, but I agree with the rest. I don't think anyone short of Madara and Hashirama could do what Naruto did to the Kyuubi. And now I remember an example of him having Tsunade's strength. :P He was able to toss Kyuubi by holding its claw.

    Quote Quote:
    Even before being helped by Kushina Naruto had the upper hand, it got worse because he was trying to absorb Kyuubi's chakra:
    it that was a match, instead of pulling chakra Naruto would've followed with a FRS to the face.
    would be interesting to see them fight out of Naruto's mind. I get the feeling Naruto wasn't able to go at his best, like Killerbee, because he was trying to protect his mind.

    Quote Quote:
    I doubt Susano'o Arrows > A's speed, hell Danzou could react to them just fine.
    Wasn't there enough distance between Danzou and Susano'o? Though, I'd agree with that too, considering what kind of reflexes A has shown and his speed.



    Quote Quote:
    I dunno, if Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't follow Bee's swords I doubt a Sharingan-less Itachi could do it.
    And he doesn't have phoenix downs to revive his ass
    He was keeping up for the most part until Bee threw his swords, no?



    Quote Quote:
    It was done by Uchihas.
    My statement stands




    Quote Quote:
    Fugaku himself implied it, and Sasuke flat out said it.
    Mikoto too said pretty much that Itachi was an anomaly in the clan, with just how much raw talent he had.
    Oh. Honestly, I don't take statements as facts unless it can be proven or not contradicted.

  5. #1040
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    What? You commented as if people only praised sasuek in regards to his sharingan and that only Deidara spoke of his speed. I responded that various skilled ninjas have praised Sasuke beyond just his Sharingan and that three of the ones who praised him were also the only ones to praised Minato and Naruto. And Orochimaru remarking that Sasuke is a greater genius then he was at the same age is not praised of the Sharingan. Same with Tobi and Kirabi's comment about his strength. Sasuke's strength is not solely granted from the Sharingan.
    Why orochimaru's one wasn't related to the Sharingan?
    Isn't Sasuke an Uchiha? Didn't Sasuke said "all your jutsu are worthless in front of these eyes" ? Same with Tobi ( who praised Sasuke's Sharingan ) and Bee ( who praised Sasuke since he was able to use Amaterasu which, again, is a Sharingan jutsu.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke was not just compared with a Sannin, but one of the smartest people in the entire series. Him not being as impressive as Itachi in no way changes that he would still be more impressive then most, since his intelligences has nothing to do with his Sharingan.
    Don't go there, Sasuke's superior intelligence doesn't exist, read the last chapters, he understood that ending Edo Tensei would meant that Itachi would disappear too after something like 10 chapters, a whole pursuit of Itachi and the whole Kabuto fight.
    Being smart and being intelligent are two different things, Sasuke is the antithesis of intelligence, since he is ( was? ) driven by hate and emotions and did pretty moronic things.
    If you consider Sasuke intelligent, then you'll have to consider Naruto (!) intelligent, because they do ( did ) the same thing:
    outsmarting their opponents

    Quote Quote:
    Easy to dodged? Yeah, it was so easy that only Ee had ever done so before. The Sharingan doesn't grant magically evading powers, the person still needs to have the actual skills to move and act fast enough. And you do remember that not only did Danzo have Hashirama's stamina and Izanagi, but his own Sharingan to aid him. Let's not act like Danzo wouldn't have naturally been dead in amoment had he not had any of those tools or that he forced Sasuke to do anything. Sasuke used Susanoo beause it was the easiest way to deal with Izanagi.
    Linear movements are easier to see for the Sharingan and therefore easier to dodge, that is a manga truth ( again, reread back then the Gaara vs Sasuke fight in the forest ), or what, Bee is slower with his cloak than without it?
    Why then he schooled Sasuke without his cloak?

    And Danzou was an 80 years old, regardless of Hashirama cells ( that he didn't have in his body, only on his arm and only for Izanagi ) and a covered Sharingan that couldn't see a thing since, well, it was covered and deactivated.
    Sasuke used Susano'o because it was the only thing he could do, don't twist the fight so Sasuke had many, comfortable options:
    he got physical, he was saved by hate, otherwise Danzou would've chopped his neck, or Tobi would've saved him again.
    Again Sasuke isn't shit, but he isn't Rikudou Sennin either.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Honestly, I think Naruto was going easy. He wasn't trying to attack, just defend so he could talk to Itachi. Killerbee might have been more serious.

    I think the older son had the eyes years before Rikudou Sennin passed away. Maybe the genetic mutation Rikudou Sennin had enabled the elder son to inherit the Rinnegan and younger to inherit the body.
    Didn't Tobi said that Rikudou gifted his sons with his powers?
    And then, based on their inclination, chose the "Body" one

    Quote Quote:
    In the manga, yes. In the flashbacks, it was different. Gaara was a good kid who cared about others. Sasuke was teh same. Orochimaru... well, he didn't really show his creepy, sadistic side when talking to Hiruzen about white snakes. Most characters' flashbacks showed them as good, despite their early appearance. Hell, even Sasuke turned more positive the more time he spent with Team 7, even relying on Naruto at one point to help out.

    Only applies for Itachi's Tsukuyomi when he controls time and probably Madara's genjutsu. Oh, and I think Kakashi's as well. Otherwise we saw Sharingan genjutsu and even MS genjutsu broken by Bee, Danzou, Sasuke, and few others. Orochimaru was also able to make an attempt to break out until Itachi cut his hand off.
    I was joking lol.
    Of course he couldn't know that his son would turn out a bitter immature boy, it happened after his death after all.

    Sasuke and Danzou have Sharingans, and as Itachi said you can't put a Sharingan user in a genjutsu with another Sharingan.
    Perfect Jinchuuriki are immune to genjutsus, according to Bee

    Quote Quote:
    Don't think Hiraishin would be easy to teach in someone's mind when the teacher himself has limited chakra.

    With an attack that's equal to the power of all nine bijuu. And then Madara will say "so there is someone who rivals Hashirama in power. But you don't have his charisma!"
    Maybe not teach straight out, but say where to look, how he developed it, something like that.
    Hell write the shiki, the formula, so Naruto could see for himself.

    Dem fodder ninjas

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke, Itachi, or Kakashi could do the same. Maybe Jiraiya as well. Minato definitely could. I don't find that as impressive, but I'm probably being unfair comparing it to Naruto's past feats, which have been pretty good.

    Only way he did was by shortening the time it takes to get into Sage Mode. Otherwise he's done everything that a perfect Sage Mode user should be able to do. Though, he's given FRS a new power. FRS can be used in two ways now, or probably three ways: base mode, Sage Mode, and Kyuubi Chakra mode.

    Dunno about his strength bein on Tsunade's level, but I agree with the rest. I don't think anyone short of Madara and Hashirama could do what Naruto did to the Kyuubi. And now I remember an example of him having Tsunade's strength. :P He was able to toss Kyuubi by holding its claw.
    Well of course it wasn't all that impressive, but considering that was a clone, it was pretty good overall.
    Not completely true, Kabuto didn't show Naruto's strenght with Sage Mode for example.

    And also blasted away a giant rhyno up in the air with nothing but physical strenght. Frog Fu is even better, since it can hit without physically hitting someone

    Quote Quote:
    Would be interesting to see them fight out of Naruto's mind. I get the feeling Naruto wasn't able to go at his best, like Killerbee, because he was trying to protect his mind.

    Wasn't there enough distance between Danzou and Susano'o? Though, I'd agree with that too, considering what kind of reflexes A has shown and his speed.
    Would be cool, even though I doubt Naruto held back, the Chou Oodama Rasentarengan ( or whatever it was called, the one with 100 KB in Sage Mode + Oodara Rasengans ) seems ultra distructive to me.

    Considering Sasuke uses the arrows in mid to long range, it will always be a certain distance. On close range he uses the sword

    Quote Quote:
    He was keeping up for the most part until Bee threw his swords, no?
    Bee was joking around, even when they triple-teamed him he didn't substain any damage whatsoever.
    I can't consider someone keeping up when, despite a Sharingan, he was outclassed that badly, even without the chakra cloak

    Quote Quote:
    Oh. Honestly, I don't take statements as facts unless it can be proven or not contradicted.
    Well hype exists so mangakas wouldn't waste time drawing panels no one would care about ( frankly I doubt the casual reader even remembers who Fugaku is ), and unless it is disproven ( like the Hiruzen one ) it is pretty much proof imho

  6. #1041
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Didn't Tobi said that Rikudou gifted his sons with his powers?
    And then, based on their inclination, chose the "Body" one
    Dunno, I don't exactly remember. Would make sense if the older one got his father's eyes while the younger one was born with his father's body, though. I have no idea how.... Although it's just as possible that Rikudou created his offsprings via Izanagi.



    Quote Quote:
    I was joking lol.
    Of course he couldn't know that his son would turn out a bitter immature boy, it happened after his death after all.
    Joking? What's that?

    I think he did know that or had an inkling, which is why he chose the younger brother. Considering what RIkudou Sennin accomplished, it's hard to believe he didn't foresee his older son being a jealous jerkoff and attacking the younger son.

    Hmm, maybe he created them or gave them power as a tool against the bijuu or Juubi should they ever come back? As far as I know, most descendants were blessed with some part of the respective brothers' power, if not every power. Like, some Uchiha had Sharingan, but majority had the chakra while majority of the Senju had the body, if not the strength of chakra or something.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke and Danzou have Sharingans, and as Itachi said you can't put a Sharingan user in a genjutsu with another Sharingan.
    Perfect Jinchuuriki are immune to genjutsus, according to Bee
    We saw Danzou and Sasuke be put in Sharingan by Sasuke and Itachi. Itachi was also put in a genjutsu by Kurenai, and Kakashi's clone got genjutsu'd as well. Despite what Itachi said, we saw instances of Sharingan users being hit with a genjutsu by another Sharingan. I think Itachi meant keeping a Sharingan user in genjutsu, as Itachi, Danzou, and Sasuke managed to break out genjutsu or reverse it on their caster, though I"m not sure about Danzou doing it with Sharingan. Sharingan just enhances ability to cast and break out of genjutsu.

    Same person who got put in Sasuke's and Itachi's genjutsu. Honestly, I don't think we should believe statements as they can be contradicted. If perfect jinchuuriki were immune to genjutsu, Bee would not have been hit with Sasuke's MS genjutsu or Itachi's genjutsu. We have seen that the bijuu either help break them out of it or let them know they're in a genjutsu, though. Had Sasuke gone for a follow-up attack, Bee probably wouldn't have been able to lariat the confusion out of Sasuke. No one has been immune to genjutsu so far.



    Quote Quote:
    Maybe not teach straight out, but say where to look, how he developed it, something like that.
    Hell write the shiki, the formula, so Naruto could see for himself.

    Dem fodder ninjas
    Can't see that happening either die to Minato running out of chakra. If the Kyuubi was freed, then Naruto can't learn Hiraishin.



    Quote Quote:
    Well of course it wasn't all that impressive, but considering that was a clone, it was pretty good overall.
    Not completely true, Kabuto didn't show Naruto's strenght with Sage Mode for example.

    And also blasted away a giant rhyno up in the air with nothing but physical strenght. Frog Fu is even better, since it can hit without physically hitting someone
    Guess so, but Naruto didn't really need much, just chakra.

    Wasn't that SM rasengan? hat is frog fu's range anyway?



    Quote Quote:
    Would be cool, even though I doubt Naruto held back, the Chou Oodama Rasentarengan ( or whatever it was called, the one with 100 KB in Sage Mode + Oodara Rasengans ) seems ultra distructive to me.

    Considering Sasuke uses the arrows in mid to long range, it will always be a certain distance. On close range he uses the sword
    It was aimed at the Kyuubi though. Plus, it's much different than what Bee would have done, apparently. He said he couldn't go all out because he was in Naruto's mind. Though I admit I"m not sure if it's to avoid hurting Naruto or because his power is actually limited in someone's midn.

    Downside to the super duper fast arrows: anyone with speed can dodge it, whether it's Kakashi kind or Raikage kind. Naruto and Sasuke keep getting drawbacks or convenient Forget-Jutsu no Jutsu.

    If Naruto still used Uzumaki Naruto Rendan, he'd have probably done better against Pain or Nagato. Although taijutsu is part of either version's strength, the Hungry Ghost is useless if it's not holding Naruto.



    Quote Quote:
    Bee was joking around, even when they triple-teamed him he didn't substain any damage whatsoever.
    I can't consider someone keeping up when, despite a Sharingan, he was outclassed that badly, even without the chakra cloak
    True.

    well, the first time Sasuke was against an unorthodox way of swordfighting while the second time, Sasuke noobed out and assumed his genjutsu would be enough to take down Bee. Otherwise out of that, Sasuke didn't really have much of a disadvantage. Though he had virtually no advantage at all, even when he used Amaterasu.



    Quote Quote:
    Well hype exists so mangakas wouldn't waste time drawing panels no one would care about ( frankly I doubt the casual reader even remembers who Fugaku is ), and unless it is disproven ( like the Hiruzen one ) it is pretty much proof imho
    Hiruzen's hype hasn't really been disproven though. There are a lot of excuses (that I can come up with) that could explain why Hiruzen's combat ability wasn't anywhere near any of the current kage.

    Honestly, actions over words. Bee said perfect jinchuuriki are immune to genjutsu. Yet we saw Bee be put in genjutsu twice, once against MS and once against normal. Words are opinions or thoughts of characters, not necessary the author's. The actions are more the thoughts of the author's, in my opinion. If Kishi wanted Naruto to be a ninja who never gave up, he wouldn't just make Naruto say that, he'd show it. And show it he has, against Neji and Gaara to name a few.

    Words can be contradicted or proven false, actions rarely are.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Doesn't Bee mean exactly that? That a the bijuu will help the Jinchuuriki awaken from the genjutsu, that's what he has shown at least being a perfect Jinchuuriki himself.

    Words are words, but can anyone contradict Hiruzen being the best 30/40 years ago? Can't remember Konoha losing in a war under his command. :P
    Last edited by Schabrak; August 08, 2012 at 04:05 PM.
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    ^
    if it means anything...minato stated kakashi,obito and rin...that konoha's military was at an all time low.that was why kakashi was in charge of the team and minato was working alone.
    so they may not have lost a war...but there rotation of cadets/grads really got hit hard in the classes between minato and kakashi...to have a newly promoted 13yr old jonin take over a team and assist on a high profile mission...like sabotage.
    But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    That's war, being attacked by different/multiple countries in the first/second/third war will obviously deplete the number of graduated shinobi, that was never in question. I'm talking about Hiruzen and his skills, not konoha ninja. Also, Kakashi is a prodigy just like Itachi was, those two are not comparable to any normal ninja, so discussing them as evidence is totally pointless. Kakashi was/is the next candidate for Hokage.
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Why orochimaru's one wasn't related to the Sharingan?
    Isn't Sasuke an Uchiha? Didn't Sasuke said "all your jutsu are worthless in front of these eyes" ? Same with Tobi ( who praised Sasuke's Sharingan ) and Bee ( who praised Sasuke since he was able to use Amaterasu which, again, is a Sharingan jutsu.
    What does his intelligences have to do with his Sharingan? Sasuke was considered a genius even before he awoke his Sharingan. Tobi praising his strength and speed aren't solely limited to his Sharingan, and Kirabi's praised wasn't about Amaterasu, since Kirabi's comment was specifically about why he felt the need to transform, which happen before Sasuke used Amaterasu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Don't go there, Sasuke's superior intelligence doesn't exist, read the last chapters, he understood that ending Edo Tensei would meant that Itachi would disappear too after something like 10 chapters, a whole pursuit of Itachi and the whole Kabuto fight.
    Being smart and being intelligent are two different things, Sasuke is the antithesis of intelligence, since he is ( was? ) driven by hate and emotions and did pretty moronic things.
    If you consider Sasuke intelligent, then you'll have to consider Naruto (!) intelligent, because they do ( did ) the same thing:
    outsmarting their opponents
    What? Where was it shown Sasuke had only just realized such a thing? Not being concerned with it doesn't mean not knowing about it. His comment about how Itachi tended to tell him later and then lie makes it obviously that he knew that Itachi could end up leaving before he was told what he wanted to know. And really, Sasuke's genius intelligent has been mentioned multiple times. Just because he chooses to focus on his revenge does not mean he isn't intelligent, especially when he himself have admitted that it's childish. Also, that doesn't work, since the way Sasuke outsmarts an opponent is completely different from how Naruto does it. Sasuke figures out an opponent's ability and counters it, while Naruto ignores the opponent's ability and focuses on tricking them with his own ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Linear movements are easier to see for the Sharingan and therefore easier to dodge, that is a manga truth ( again, reread back then the Gaara vs Sasuke fight in the forest ), or what, Bee is slower with his cloak than without it?
    Why then he schooled Sasuke without his cloak?

    And Danzou was an 80 years old, regardless of Hashirama cells ( that he didn't have in his body, only on his arm and only for Izanagi ) and a covered Sharingan that couldn't see a thing since, well, it was covered and deactivated.
    Sasuke used Susano'o because it was the only thing he could do, don't twist the fight so Sasuke had many, comfortable options:
    he got physical, he was saved by hate, otherwise Danzou would've chopped his neck, or Tobi would've saved him again.
    Again Sasuke isn't shit, but he isn't Rikudou Sennin either.
    Easier to see doesn't mean easier to dodge, since as repeatedly mentioned, he would still have to be fast enough to physically react. Again, what would be the point of mentioning that only Ee had done such a feat before if it's some sort of easy feat to do? Sasuke had trouble with Kirabi before because of the random sword style he used made things hard to read, and even then Sasuke was still able to read enough to last awhile and later avoid any fatal blows.

    Hashirama's cells were clearly shown to boost stamina, which is the only thing elderly ninjas would be lacking. You mention his age as if that supposedly must mean that he must have no fighting ability, yet clearly that's not true when we have seen the likes of Chiyo and Onoki in battle. Even with Sarutobi, his problem was stated to have been the lack of stamina. Susanoo wasn't the only thing he could do, merely what he best felt like doing. Tobi outright stated that, that Sasuke's reason for using Susanoo was to force Danzo to continuously use Izanagi so he would use them up. Heck, Sasuke fought just as much outside Susanoo too, using his weaponry and such. Funny to mention how Sasuke got saved by Susanoo once and somehow ignore that Danzo had to be saved nearly a dozen times from death. The only reason the battle went as long as it did was because Danzo had a bunch of extra lives, otherwise he would have been dealt with in a second. Sasuke obviously wouldn't have to be the Rikudou Sennin to still be superior to the majority of ninjas around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Words are words, but can anyone contradict Hiruzen being the best 30/40 years ago? Can't remember Konoha losing in a war under his command. :P
    We don't know much so that wouldn't necessarily mean anything if, as we saw, Konoha was suffering huge loses for their wins. If they won merely by having more soldiers to sacrifice, that doesn't speak much of command. On the otherhand, Sarutobi was skilled enough diplomatically that he was able to avoid others' attempts at starting a war.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @schabrak
    i brought up the shinobi(jonin class especially)...because of the heavy losses under hiruzen(don't get me wrong...i heart sarutobi(pap pa).but,if they were that short of shinobi...i can't imagine the 3rd war was a victory.that was why i brought this up...

    hiruzen was powerful no doubt....think about this....

    when he became hokage was during the 2nd war(a young man)...by the time the 3rd war rolled around he was an old man.that is quite a bit of years without any"major"threats to konoha.this may speak a lot to hiruzen's strength back then...this i did not disagree with.
    it was the war thing that i would dispute.....
    Last edited by gnut; August 08, 2012 at 07:31 PM.
    But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Sarutobi became Hokage during the First War. And there probably was so few conflicts because he was willing to compromise over just declaring war. Likely would have taken alot for him to allow Konoha to go to war.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Doesn't Bee mean exactly that? That a the bijuu will help the Jinchuuriki awaken from the genjutsu, that's what he has shown at least being a perfect Jinchuuriki himself.
    It's different from being immune to genjutsu, though. Immune is what Kabuto in Sage Mode would have been. Even Hachibi had to tell Bee to break the genjutsu that Itachi did on him.

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    Grin Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sarutobi became Hokage during the First War. And there probably was so few conflicts because he was willing to compromise over just declaring war. Likely would have taken alot for him to allow Konoha to go to war.
    sorry...you're right R.K.....
    when you say it like that it really puts in perspective how long hiruzen reigned as hokage...and to not claim a loss is hard to imagine...right
    But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Dunno, I don't exactly remember. Would make sense if the older one got his father's eyes while the younger one was born with his father's body, though. I have no idea how.... Although it's just as possible that Rikudou created his offsprings via Izanagi.
    Naa, I hope he did the hanky panky with some hot chick.
    Imagine how sad it would be to create your own sons

    Quote Quote:
    Joking? What's that?

    I think he did know that or had an inkling, which is why he chose the younger brother. Considering what RIkudou Sennin accomplished, it's hard to believe he didn't foresee his older son being a jealous jerkoff and attacking the younger son.

    Hmm, maybe he created them or gave them power as a tool against the bijuu or Juubi should they ever come back? As far as I know, most descendants were blessed with some part of the respective brothers' power, if not every power. Like, some Uchiha had Sharingan, but majority had the chakra while majority of the Senju had the body, if not the strength of chakra or something.
    Maybe is some sort of jerkish propechy, he did foretold Naruto being his successor.
    Well for Bijuus I doubt, since, apart from Kyuubi, it seems that normal people can become Jinchuuriki, they only have to have a respectable chakra pool

    Quote Quote:
    We saw Danzou and Sasuke be put in Sharingan by Sasuke and Itachi. Itachi was also put in a genjutsu by Kurenai, and Kakashi's clone got genjutsu'd as well. Despite what Itachi said, we saw instances of Sharingan users being hit with a genjutsu by another Sharingan. I think Itachi meant keeping a Sharingan user in genjutsu, as Itachi, Danzou, and Sasuke managed to break out genjutsu or reverse it on their caster, though I"m not sure about Danzou doing it with Sharingan. Sharingan just enhances ability to cast and break out of genjutsu.

    Same person who got put in Sasuke's and Itachi's genjutsu. Honestly, I don't think we should believe statements as they can be contradicted. If perfect jinchuuriki were immune to genjutsu, Bee would not have been hit with Sasuke's MS genjutsu or Itachi's genjutsu. We have seen that the bijuu either help break them out of it or let them know they're in a genjutsu, though. Had Sasuke gone for a follow-up attack, Bee probably wouldn't have been able to lariat the confusion out of Sasuke. No one has been immune to genjutsu so far.
    Everyone can be put in a genjutsu, being immune means you can break them.
    Kabuto's way is being truly immune, and I believe a Byakugan user would too, since, you know, he could see through his eyelids closed.
    A seemed pretty much immune since he shrugged off Sasuke's, until Madara took that notion and threw it out of the window

    Quote Quote:
    Can't see that happening either die to Minato running out of chakra. If the Kyuubi was freed, then Naruto can't learn Hiraishin.
    Well they did talk for a while, hell say "Kakashi has a kunai I gave him, rob him of it!"

    Quote Quote:
    Guess so, but Naruto didn't really need much, just chakra.

    Wasn't that SM rasengan? hat is frog fu's range anyway?
    That was after, see here ( I know mangareader is off for the states, but can you see mangahere? ).

    Depends on Kishi, it seems to be at least 2-3 meters, but he did launched a blast that traveled the Four Tail's neck when he got rid of the spike Tobi implanted.
    One of the reasons why SM seems a pretty good match to Susano'o, it can ( theorically ) bypass that defence with taijutsu


    Quote Quote:
    It was aimed at the Kyuubi though. Plus, it's much different than what Bee would have done, apparently. He said he couldn't go all out because he was in Naruto's mind. Though I admit I"m not sure if it's to avoid hurting Naruto or because his power is actually limited in someone's midn.

    Downside to the super duper fast arrows: anyone with speed can dodge it, whether it's Kakashi kind or Raikage kind. Naruto and Sasuke keep getting drawbacks or convenient Forget-Jutsu no Jutsu.

    If Naruto still used Uzumaki Naruto Rendan, he'd have probably done better against Pain or Nagato. Although taijutsu is part of either version's strength, the Hungry Ghost is useless if it's not holding Naruto.
    Its how the manga is, sadly.
    At least is better than Bleach, where Ichigo had more power swings than a woman has mood swings when she PMS


    Quote Quote:
    True.

    well, the first time Sasuke was against an unorthodox way of swordfighting while the second time, Sasuke noobed out and assumed his genjutsu would be enough to take down Bee. Otherwise out of that, Sasuke didn't really have much of a disadvantage. Though he had virtually no advantage at all, even when he used Amaterasu.
    He still had a Sharingan, and we know how the Sharingan, expecially a 3-tomoe Sharingan, can read and anticipate attacks.

    Quote Quote:
    Hiruzen's hype hasn't really been disproven though. There are a lot of excuses (that I can come up with) that could explain why Hiruzen's combat ability wasn't anywhere near any of the current kage.

    Honestly, actions over words. Bee said perfect jinchuuriki are immune to genjutsu. Yet we saw Bee be put in genjutsu twice, once against MS and once against normal. Words are opinions or thoughts of characters, not necessary the author's. The actions are more the thoughts of the author's, in my opinion. If Kishi wanted Naruto to be a ninja who never gave up, he wouldn't just make Naruto say that, he'd show it. And show it he has, against Neji and Gaara to name a few.

    Words can be contradicted or proven false, actions rarely are.
    Well I would normally agree with you, but we saw Oonoki that, according to Deidara, was even faster than his prime.

    It depends, if the character is alive and well I agree with you, if the character is dead and making useless flashbacks is the only way, then better let him stay dead and let him live of hype.
    An example of disproven hype is the famous "Jiraiya > Itachi & Kisame" one, realistically no one believes that Itachi and Kisame couldn't take down Jiraiya

    ---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    What does his intelligences have to do with his Sharingan? Sasuke was considered a genius even before he awoke his Sharingan. Tobi praising his strength and speed aren't solely limited to his Sharingan, and Kirabi's praised wasn't about Amaterasu, since Kirabi's comment was specifically about why he felt the need to transform, which happen before Sasuke used Amaterasu.
    Where did Oro praised Sasuke's intelligence?
    Bee's praise was kind of forced since, his transformation was useless, since Sasuke was dead, Suigetsu was almost there to join him, Juugo was worthless to him and Karin... Well was Karin.
    He transformed so he could escape, or to put it in better words to let him escape and give Sasuke at least a little bit of dignity in that fight

    Quote Quote:
    What? Where was it shown Sasuke had only just realized such a thing? Not being concerned with it doesn't mean not knowing about it. His comment about how Itachi tended to tell him later and then lie makes it obviously that he knew that Itachi could end up leaving before he was told what he wanted to know. And really, Sasuke's genius intelligent has been mentioned multiple times. Just because he chooses to focus on his revenge does not mean he isn't intelligent, especially when he himself have admitted that it's childish. Also, that doesn't work, since the way Sasuke outsmarts an opponent is completely different from how Naruto does it. Sasuke figures out an opponent's ability and counters it, while Naruto ignores the opponent's ability and focuses on tricking them with his own ability.
    That would be true if Sasuke wouldn't have a conveniente, little set of eyes to do the work for him. He didn't figured out Deidara's jutsu by intelligence, he figured it out thanks to the hand-seal, that the Sharingan read.
    Sasuke's way of outsmarting opponents is almost the same of Naruto, he simply uses the Sharingan while Naruto uses KB to do the trick.
    Intelligence is Itachi figuring out Chibaku Tensei, and Shikamaru's all "brainy" explanations.

    Being a genius =/= being intelligent, Neji was a prodigy yet he was outwitted by Naruto, just to make an example. Even Lee is a genius in his own way ( remember Kakashi telling that when he activated the gates? ), but he is no Shikamaru.

    Why, for example, not use Chidori variatons against Kabuto?
    He can make them non-lethal, like he did with Suigetsu, and it would still damage him pretty badly.

    As for Sasuke, I doubt anything that concerns Itachi is worthless, so he was pretty slow on that one. Kishi's fault? Surely, but the Armadillo mission too was Kishi's fault

    Quote Quote:
    Easier to see doesn't mean easier to dodge, since as repeatedly mentioned, he would still have to be fast enough to physically react. Again, what would be the point of mentioning that only Ee had done such a feat before if it's some sort of easy feat to do? Sasuke had trouble with Kirabi before because of the random sword style he used made things hard to read, and even then Sasuke was still able to read enough to last awhile and later avoid any fatal blows.
    Do we read the same manga?
    Sharingan's predicting ability makes the dodge a hell of a lot easier, you can dodge with inferior speed thanks to it, even more so if the movement is easily readable.
    Again remember versus Gaara? "If I wouldn't have this eyes, I would be dead"

    Quote Quote:
    Hashirama's cells were clearly shown to boost stamina, which is the only thing elderly ninjas would be lacking. You mention his age as if that supposedly must mean that he must have no fighting ability, yet clearly that's not true when we have seen the likes of Chiyo and Onoki in battle. Even with Sarutobi, his problem was stated to have been the lack of stamina. Susanoo wasn't the only thing he could do, merely what he best felt like doing. Tobi outright stated that, that Sasuke's reason for using Susanoo was to force Danzo to continuously use Izanagi so he would use them up. Heck, Sasuke fought just as much outside Susanoo too, using his weaponry and such. Funny to mention how Sasuke got saved by Susanoo once and somehow ignore that Danzo had to be saved nearly a dozen times from death. The only reason the battle went as long as it did was because Danzo had a bunch of extra lives, otherwise he would have been dealt with in a second. Sasuke obviously wouldn't have to be the Rikudou Sennin to still be superior to the majority of ninjas around.
    So a young body = an old body?
    Hiruzen's weakness wasn't only his stamina, was the fact that he was slower, weaker, everything.
    It is common sense that a young body would be way better suited for activity than a way older body, Danzou could've Hashirama's cells to boost his stamina, but not only it was uses solely for Izanagi, it still didn't gave him his physical abilities lost.
    He wasn't fifty years old like the sannins, he was well beyond his seventies. Oonoki's situation is different since the guy uses rock jutsus to enhance his strenght, otherwise he would just be a tiny old man, his forte are his Jinton jutsus.

    True, Danzou's fight was pathetic since he couldn't capitalize even 8 minutes of invincibility, no one is saying that.
    But to say that Sasuke won effortlessy, or with ease, or without a bit of luck is untrue as well.
    Kishi focused on Sasuke's susano'o right now, his overall skills are all but forgotten ( I can't still comprehend why he didn't use any Chidori variations against Kabuto, hell even against that web ) in favour of Susano'o spamming, and he can't measure up to the hype anymore when he is the only one of the mains in this manga that fights with a mecha 24/7.
    His last noteable win against someone without Susano'o is the Deidara one, the Deidara that Sai and Kankuro fodderized along with Sasori

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