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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

  1. #1186
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Nagato is the one who still needs to master it and use it. It's not like with the Kyuubi where it'll automatically help - Rinnegan is useless if the user isn't good with it. I think the two or three shinobi Nagato killed when he was a kid were either shocked or not that good.
    the fox was not always automatic help. Yeah healing ok, But I don't recall Nagato having to suffer due to the rinnegan. and Before bijuu mode, Naruto trained to use that power. Given the fact that he also has abilities separate of the fox he and Nagato are not equal. Thank you for reminding me of the three ninja Nagato killed while blacked out due to the Rinnegan.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox666
    Doesn't it requires several conditions to use Kirin? You can't throw it with a clean sky.

    Just one condition: creating a cumulo-nimbus cloud. Which he did.

    Remember when Sai finds Sasuke before Naruto and the others? We see a large explosion, Sai laying on the ground, and then Sasuke standing above them on the exploded rooftop? It was because Sasuke used a katon to destroy the roof (not proven, but makes sense. Sai can't survive an explosion that powerful and get up without a scratch so the explosion had to be far away from him). Then, he uses handseals and reaches his hand to the sky, just like with Kirin (Kirin doesn't require handseals, but he did use handseals this time, likely because the storm wasn't finished yet). Then, right after he and Orochimaru disappear, what happens? That's right: a storm comes and it starts raining.

    Anyway, if it WASN'T Kirin, that means Sasuke has some sort of other jutsu that comes from the sky that none of us have seen. It makes more sense to believe it was Kirin than to believe it was something we won't see until now. I think it's a reasonable as an analogy for Naruto's "that jutsu" situation aswell.

    ---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman
    Thank you for reminding me of the three ninja Nagato killed while blacked out due to the Rinnegan.
    LOL, that's one thing you can't say about the Sharingan: Sasuke's never killed someone while friggin' unconscious.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    the fox was not always automatic help. Yeah healing ok, But I don't recall Nagato having to suffer due to the rinnegan. and Before bijuu mode, Naruto trained to use that power. Given the fact that he also has abilities separate of the fox he and Nagato are not equal. Thank you for reminding me of the three ninja Nagato killed while blacked out due to the Rinnegan.
    It actually was. Naruto didn't even know that the fox was helping him until Jiraiya told him. It helped him against Haku and Orochimaru unconsciously. And all he had to do was ask the fox for help, like when he was fighting Neji or practicing the summoning no jutsu. Even after that, the fox was willing to help him, like against Sasuke. It wasn't until the Rescue Gaara arc we saw how much more influence Kyuubi had over Naruto. He's never had to train to use that power, just be aware of it. Until he was able to use Kyuubi's chakra freely, there was no training involved whatsoever.

    Nagato did have to suffer a bit using some Rinnegan jutsu, like Gedo Mazou's soul stealing dragon. He still has to train and use the power, otherwise why would Jiraiya have him train? Nagato still sucks though.


    I do agree that Naruto has his own power. Hell, we even saw that despite his messed up chakra control from Orochimaru's seal, Naruto was still slowly getting the hang of walking on water. That's pretty impressive, considering how bad Naruto was said to be at chakra control.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It actually was. Naruto didn't even know that the fox was helping him until Jiraiya told him. It helped him against Haku and Orochimaru unconsciously. And all he had to do was ask the fox for help, like when he was fighting Neji or practicing the summoning no jutsu. Even after that, the fox was willing to help him, like against Sasuke. It wasn't until the Rescue Gaara arc we saw how much more influence Kyuubi had over Naruto. He's never had to train to use that power, just be aware of it. Until he was able to use Kyuubi's chakra freely, there was no training involved whatsoever.

    Nagato did have to suffer a bit using some Rinnegan jutsu, like Gedo Mazou's soul stealing dragon. He still has to train and use the power, otherwise why would Jiraiya have him train? Nagato still sucks though.


    I do agree that Naruto has his own power. Hell, we even saw that despite his messed up chakra control from Orochimaru's seal, Naruto was still slowly getting the hang of walking on water. That's pretty impressive, considering how bad Naruto was said to be at chakra control.

    Gedo Mezo was Nagato's choice to summon, and apparently that's separate of the Rinnegan itself, it's a summon. Was Nagato shunned or an outcasted due to the Rinnegan? Did people hate him because he had the Rinnegan? And we go back to the utilization of power vs your chakra being a battery for power. Naruto utilized the fox's chakra for his own abilities, where as Nagato's chakra was a battery for the Rinnegan. The only times that wasn't true for Naruto was the tailed transformations, but even then it was basically killing him. And every time he used it it was giving the fox more control. Nagato never had to worry about that because eyeballs aren't sentient. Also he may have had to train to use Nature transformation jutsu, which we only saw during flashbacks, but nothing but benefit of the doubt and assumptions suggests that the rinnegan standards required the same thing.

    And then there's the fact that he killed three ninja while not even being properly trained because of the Rinnegan. It doesn't really matter if they were good or not.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; September 27, 2012 at 03:21 PM.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox666 View Post
    Doesn't it requires several conditions to use Kirin? You can't throw it with a clean sky.
    Only when being powered up by natural lightning. Presumably Sasuke using his own chakra to crate a weaker one wouldn't require any preparation.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    Gedo Mezo was Nagato's choice to summon, and apparently that's separate of the Rinnegan itself, it's a summon. Was Nagato shunned or an outcasted due to the Rinnegan? Did people hate him because he had the Rinnegan? And we go back to the utilization of power vs your chakra being a battery for power. Naruto utilized the fox's chakra for his own abilities, where as Nagato's chakra was a battery for the Rinnegan. The only times that wasn't true for Naruto was the tailed transformations, but even then it was basically killing him. And every time he used it it was giving the fox more control. Nagato never had to worry about that because eyeballs aren't sentient. Also he may have had to train to use Nature transformation jutsu, which we only saw during flashbacks, but nothing but benefit of the doubt and assumptions suggests that the rinnegan standards required the same thing.
    Even so, it looks like Rinnegan plays a part in summoning it as only a Rinnegan user was able to summon it. Social reason isn't considered a price to pay, considering Naruto was never threatened, just alone.

    Naruto didn't utilize the Kyuubi's chakra for his abilities until Jiraiya taught him to, in a way. Even then, there was no price to pay. and considering his Uzumaki heritage, he'd probably live a normal life anyway.

    But Nagato also had to train to use Rinnegan, and he had to worry about draining his chakra as he had no external source of chakra like Naruto did. Kyuubi was more of a bailout trump for Naruto than Rinnegan was for Nagato, as their fight shows.

    Quote Quote:
    And then there's the fact that he killed three ninja while not even being properly trained because of the Rinnegan. It doesn't really matter if they were good or not.
    Naruto managed to be faster than Haku and shatter his mask when he used Kyuubi's chakra. Before that he had no chance. KYuubi's chakra also allowed him to stop orochimaru's snake from attacking Sasuke.

    Not sure whether I should include it healing Naruto's injury from Sasuke's chidori considering Naruto wasn't fighting seriously... but even then, he'd have lost or died quickly without Kyuubi.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Even so, it looks like Rinnegan plays a part in summoning it as only a Rinnegan user was able to summon it. Social reason isn't considered a price to pay, considering Naruto was never threatened, just alone.

    Naruto didn't utilize the Kyuubi's chakra for his abilities until Jiraiya taught him to, in a way. Even then, there was no price to pay. and considering his Uzumaki heritage, he'd probably live a normal life anyway.

    But Nagato also had to train to use Rinnegan, and he had to worry about draining his chakra as he had no external source of chakra like Naruto did. Kyuubi was more of a bailout trump for Naruto than Rinnegan was for Nagato, as their fight shows.
    How is that not a price to pay? I'm not sure I understand. Because he was never hurt physical, it doesn't count? He still had to suffer because of the fox, and was at risk of letting it take over the more he used it's power. Losing yourself and ultimately dying is not a price? that's a price and a risk for all jinchuriki, that's why there have only been three perfect ones, ever. Nagato didn't have to go trough that. He suffered because of war, I'll give you that, but not because of the Rinnegan. One again Gedo Mezo was Nagato choice to summon. Even if it is associated with the Rinnegan, it's separated from the eyes themselves, and It was his choice.

    It's fine and dandy that he trained while with Jiraiya, but like I stated before, only assumptions and the benefit of the doubt say that the Rinnegan standard jutsu require the same thing. These are the only things we saw from Nagato outside of a flashback.

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto managed to be faster than Haku and shatter his mask when he used Kyuubi's chakra. Before that he had no chance. KYuubi's chakra also allowed him to stop orochimaru's snake from attacking Sasuke.

    Not sure whether I should include it healing Naruto's injury from Sasuke's chidori considering Naruto wasn't fighting seriously... but even then, he'd have lost or died quickly without Kyuubi.
    Ok, so the fox amplified Naruto's strength speed and healing. Nagato murdered three people without even being conscious of it. I don't ever remember saying that the fox wasn't a bailout for Naruto in some situations.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; September 27, 2012 at 08:49 PM.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    HOw is it a price when the Kyuubi is the main reason why Naruto is who he is? If it weren't for Naruto being hated, he wouldn't have been this inspirational ninja or a prankster. He may have been smarter, but he wouldn't have the same personality he does now. And he was never really at risk because of Minato. Minato appeared and fixed the seal again just when Naruto was about to go nine tails... the only danger he was in was against his enemies and risk of Kyuubi not helping. Naruto is the only jinchuuriki we know so far that didn't have the same price as others thanks to Minato.

    Well, we don't know if there was only ever three perfect jinchuuriki, there could have been more.


    Some situations? The fox was a bailout for Naruto in almost every situation. Against Pain, Sasuke, Neji, Haku, Kakuzu (chakra), Gaara, and etc. One good thing is that Rinnegan was Nagato's bailout in every situation while Naruto relied on his power for the most part before the war started.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    HOw is it a price when the Kyuubi is the main reason why Naruto is who he is? If it weren't for Naruto being hated, he wouldn't have been this inspirational ninja or a prankster. He may have been smarter, but he wouldn't have the same personality he does now. And he was never really at risk because of Minato. Minato appeared and fixed the seal again just when Naruto was about to go nine tails... the only danger he was in was against his enemies and risk of Kyuubi not helping. Naruto is the only jinchuuriki we know so far that didn't have the same price as others thanks to Minato.

    Well, we don't know if there was only ever three perfect jinchuuriki, there could have been more.


    Some situations? The fox was a bailout for Naruto in almost every situation. Against Pain, Sasuke, Neji, Haku, Kakuzu (chakra), Gaara, and etc. One good thing is that Rinnegan was Nagato's bailout in every situation while Naruto relied on his power for the most part before the war started.
    How exactly does Naruto, being able to overcome his suffering, negate the fact that he did in fact suffer? I'm confused. Haku, it amplified his speed and strength, ok. Sasuke, that's Naruto's own fault for letting get as far as it did, ok. Nagato, well it's obvious that was a straight bailout. However, Once again, the tailed transformations were basically killing him. But the others you mentioned were Naruto utilizing the fox's chakra. Oh, and Kakazu? What, every time his pupils slit that's a point for the Fox, really? That Risk is still present for him, it doesn't matter that the safeguard was there. all the safeguard does is fix the seal. It doesn't reset his psyche. What would the safeguard matter if Naruto ended up like Part 1 Gaara and was nothing but a psychopathic meat puppet for the Fox?

    But did Nagato have to go through any of this due to the Rinnegan? No, he did not.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; September 28, 2012 at 03:26 AM.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    I want a Naruto tournament when the One Piece one will be finished


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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    How exactly does Naruto, being able to overcome his suffering, negate the fact that he did in fact suffer? I'm confused. Haku, it amplified his speed and strength, ok. Sasuke, that's Naruto's own fault for letting get as far as it did, ok. Nagato, well it's obvious that was a straight bailout. However, Once again, the tailed transformations were basically killing him. But the others you mentioned were Naruto utilizing the fox's chakra. Oh, and Kakazu? What, every time his pupils slit that's a point for the Fox, really? That Risk is still present for him, it doesn't matter that the safeguard was there. all the safeguard does is fix the seal. It doesn't reset his psyche. What would the safeguard matter if Naruto ended up like Part 1 Gaara and was nothing but a psychopathic meat puppet for the Fox?
    It's not a price, technically, because Naruto was never in danger. Hell, his suffering helped give him strength because he valued bonds and friendships and fought for them. Look at his fight with Neji and Gaara - his desire to protect Sakura and prove Neji wrong about losers like him and Hinata gave him the power to win. Against Haku, it's speed and strength Naruto never had. Hell, Naruto CHOSE to use the power even though he knew the Kyuubi would try to take over. He was still using Kyuubi's chakra, it's still a free powerup. The risk wasn't that great, because the safeguard would fix the seal and make Kyuubi's influence go away for hte most part. The safeguard also changed Naruto's psyche into something more positive, as we saw.

    The safeguard was Minato... Gaara never had such safeguard, he even learned his own father wanted him dead. It's much different. The only time you can even say the Kyuubi was Naruto's own power is when he stole the chakra and trained with it, before Kyuubi became butt buddy with Naruto.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It's not a price, technically, because Naruto was never in danger. Hell, his suffering helped give him strength because he valued bonds and friendships and fought for them. Look at his fight with Neji and Gaara - his desire to protect Sakura and prove Neji wrong about losers like him and Hinata gave him the power to win. Against Haku, it's speed and strength Naruto never had. Hell, Naruto CHOSE to use the power even though he knew the Kyuubi would try to take over. He was still using Kyuubi's chakra, it's still a free powerup. The risk wasn't that great, because the safeguard would fix the seal and make Kyuubi's influence go away for hte most part. The safeguard also changed Naruto's psyche into something more positive, as we saw.

    The safeguard was Minato... Gaara never had such safeguard, he even learned his own father wanted him dead. It's much different. The only time you can even say the Kyuubi was Naruto's own power is when he stole the chakra and trained with it, before Kyuubi became butt buddy with Naruto.
    How and why does it matter that he turned out the way he did? You've basically said the same thing. Naruto was able to overcome the suffering he went through. How does that negate the suffering in the first place? You've implied, once again that "because he was not hurt physically, it doesn't count." Do you not count it because he did not have the same experiences as Gaara, despite the fact that we've been told that he could have ended up like both Sasuke and Gaara, and how easy it wold have been for such an event to occur? Haku was one of the point I gave you. Although, of course he wouldn't have that strength or speed, that's kinda the point of amplification. I might not have fully understood what you were getting at. Doesn't Naruto choosing to to use the the fox's chakra fall under utilization? Even then it doesn't negate the risk just because he chose to use it.

    Naruto was in an extremely distraught state he was not a crazy person for an extended period of time. If you want to believe that Minato could fix everything without Naruto being the person that he was, and making the connections that he made then ok. The final comparison to Gaara hints that he is a factor for you when talking about Naruto's treatment.

    I like How Nagato has been forgotten, and we are just talking about Naruto now.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; September 30, 2012 at 03:05 AM.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    How and why does it matter that he turned out the way he did? You've basically said the same thing. Naruto was able to overcome the suffering he went through. How does that negate the suffering in the first place? You've implied, once again that "because he was not hurt physically, it doesn't count." Do you not count it because he did not have the same experiences as Gaara, despite the fact that we've been told that he could have ended up like both Sasuke and Gaara, and how easy it wold have been for such an event to occur? Haku was one of the point I gave you. Although, of course he wouldn't have that strength or speed, that's kinda the point of amplification. I might not have fully understood what you were getting at. Doesn't Naruto choosing to to use the the fox's chakra fall under utilization? Even then it doesn't negate the risk just because he chose to use it.

    Naruto was in an extremely distraught state he was not a crazy person for an extended period of time. If you want to believe that Minato could fix everything without Naruto being the person that he was, and making the connections that he made then ok. The final comparison to Gaara hints that he is a factor for you when talking about Naruto's treatment.

    I like How Nagato has been forgotten, and we are just talking about Naruto now.
    The price I'm talking about has to do with battles. Rinnegan can have a big price to pay in terms of major chakra usage. Using Kyuubi's chakra has little to no price to pay. Even in Part II, it took Hinata's "death" for Naruto to even come close to removing the seal. Other than that, Naruto was in no real danger other than his life shortening.

    The main reason why he didn't end up like Gaara or even Sasuke was because of his bonds. Gaara was betrayed by one person he trusted, and after that he never struck up friendship or bond with anyone until his fight with Naruto. Sasuke after being with Naruto slowly turned good until Orochimaru got to him. Naruto made good friends and was surrounded by good people, like Kakashi and Jiraiya. Two who could contain the Kyuubi in him if need be, which we saw at least once.

    Naruto choosing to use the Kyuubi's chakra is still free powerup if Kyuubi's will comes with it, because Naruto doesn't need to do anything but fight normally. The Kyuubi can take care of the rest like healing him, giving him extra strength, etc. The risk hasn't been as great as made out to be thanks to Jiraiya, Kakashi, Yamato, and Minato. Until Pain, he never fought alone where there'd actually be risk.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I want a Naruto tournament when the One Piece one will be finished

    Hashirama will win
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Nooo, Naruto will! Minato will beat Hashirama with a new jutsu his fans made up, but Naruto will speedblitz him in one shot!

    Naruto did actually beat Minato in the last tournament. And somehow Minato beat Itachi, which proves there's more Minato fans than Itachi fans. And more Jiraiya fans than Sasuke fans, who still can't come up with a legit reason why Jiraiya would beat Mangekyo Sasuke.

    Other than the ridiculous hair argument.

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