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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

  1. #646
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    re-reading volume 59,I noticed this: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/561/11 . it looks like madara wants to try his mokuton,as if he hadn't ever used it. maybe he killed himself because if he had been revived,he would have been able to use hashirama's techniques. something like what happened to sasuke in volume 21,when he died to be revived to can use the CS 2.

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Sarutobi probably did have the authority, and he was wrong (in my opinion) to not force Danzou (and possibly the elder 2) to stand down on the action. However, it is also likely that even if Hiruzen had vetoed the action, Danzou may have given Itachi the orders anyway (as he puts the villages condition over almost any 'evil' actions). Would Hiruzen have then taken action on Danzou (and the 2 elders) in this case? To keep Sasuke alive was considerably easier, and I believe that Itachi came to Hiruzen to stop Danzou taking Sasuke's eyes as well (not that Hiruzen necessarily knew about this). As for the branch discrimination, this only occurs in clan. It has not been shown that anyone else in the village treats the 2nd branch (whatever they are called) any differently from the main branch.
    Well in such a situation, the continuation of the mission would probably depend on how really necessary the mission was believe to be by Itachi, as outside of seeing it as critical, he would have no reason to disobey the Hokage or an order from him. The lack of action would eventually end up just as bad for Sarutobi as the attempted coup. My point about the Hyuuga clan was merely that we've seen an example of a group being discriminated against, branch house, yet still shown respect. Another example would be Kiri, who only a decade ago was hunting down those who had Bloodline Limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    But the circumstances are not comparable. In Hashirama's time there was no village system. All the clans worked for themselves only, and therefore they lacked the stability and backing that belonging to the village gives them. Therefore forming this truce did more than just stopping them dying, it gave them a time of relative peace and some degree of protection. However in Hiruzen's time, although it was a time of war, the Uchiha were not as segregated and individualistic as they were in Hashiramas. It is not possible that Sasuke was the only innocent. There must have been other children (for example) who can't have known about it. I believe it was more likely that Danzou gave the order to kill all Uchiha (as he may well have desired as many eyes as possible/hated Uchiha/wanted to make sure – pick whichever fits best with you) as that was the only way to be sure that a Uchiha coup could never, ever, happen again. Itachi, however, spared Sasuke more because of his brotherly love than for his innocence (in my opinion). But the flashback also doesn't suggest discrimination. For example, why did the idea that the Uchiha had been discriminated against come as such a shock to Sasuke when he was told? Surely, out of everyone, a Uchiha would have felt this discrimination? Itachi's father wanted him to be a good connection so that he could work as a spy. There was nothing to suggest that Itachi's father ever wanted Itachi to mediate any form of truce/improvement of rights with the village.

    On a side topic – but something quite amusing – Outside of Tobi's speech to Sasuke, how many times has it been suggested (by others) that the Uchihas were plotting a coup? I'd laugh if the reason they were exterminated was a separate reason all together, and that the Uchiha were never plotting at all (that would also be a serious mind f**k).
    By the time it came for Madara wanting their support, the village system was up and running. They wouldn't have been the only ones working, especially since they presumably had their own allies to call upon for support. And let's not forget that Madara was at least willing enough to accept the clan's desire for the original truces from the Senju. The whole other children issue is questionable. In all fairness, it doesn't seem like there were many children as a whole in the village per clans. For example, the other known smaller clans don't seem to have more then a single child, and the Hyuuga clan, which seem to be the next largest clan in Konoha, only appear to have three children in this generation, with quite a gap between Hinata and Hanabi. Of course the possibility exist that there could have been additional unseen children, but it's also possible that Sasuke was the only child of his age group around. He did appear to be the only Uchiha entering the academy at the time.

    It should still have come down to what Itachi felt was needed. We know Itachi had no problem completing the mission in his own way. I don't believe Sasuke was shown shocked at the mention of them being discriminated against. It was the introduction of them plotting a coup and such that was the surprise to him, for good reason. As for being a spy, that's the thing. The other Uchiha made it clear they already had spies in Anbu, which they were gonna use to check in on Itachi's actions. An additional spy, while useful, shouldn't have been as critically important as his father was making it out to be.

    Well hopefully in a few chapters we'll be told the full story by Itachi, since Kabuto should all but be done for very soon. In fact, it has to be, since there isn't anyone else who would be aware of it still alive, except perhaps the other two Elders.

  3. #648
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Well in such a situation, the continuation of the mission would probably depend on how really necessary the mission was believe to be by Itachi, as outside of seeing it as critical, he would have no reason to disobey the Hokage or an order from him. The lack of action would eventually end up just as bad for Sarutobi as the attempted coup. My point about the Hyuuga clan was merely that we've seen an example of a group being discriminated against, branch house, yet still shown respect. Another example would be Kiri, who only a decade ago was hunting down those who had Bloodline Limits.
    But it was suggested (albeit by Tobi) that Itachi, having grown up in war, was exceptionally fearful of it. Perhaps Itachi saw that Hiruzen's tactics were not working, and (as he knew, from his father, when the attack was going to happen) decided that Danzou's plan was the only good one given the short amount of time left. But the lack of action didn't end up as bad for Hiruzen, as Itachi was willing to take all the blame for it and become a missing nin. As for the 2 examples:
    With Hyuuga, the branch house is discriminated against in house (and not outside – or else Neji wouldn't have felt the need to explain to everyone when fighting Naruto) however the whole village respects the clan. This is the opposite of what Tobi would have us believe.
    The Kiri example baffles me. Were they hunting down their own ninja who had kekkei genkai? If not, perhaps they feared the ninja would cause problems for their own ninja. It is a bad plan, in my opinion, to remove ninja with strong abilities (kekkei genkai are normally very powerful) from your own ranks when peaceful alternatives exist that allow them to increase your villages power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    By the time it came for Madara wanting their support, the village system was up and running. They wouldn't have been the only ones working, especially since they presumably had their own allies to call upon for support. And let's not forget that Madara was at least willing enough to accept the clan's desire for the original truces from the Senju. The whole other children issue is questionable. In all fairness, it doesn't seem like there were many children as a whole in the village per clans. For example, the other known smaller clans don't seem to have more then a single child, and the Hyuuga clan, which seem to be the next largest clan in Konoha, only appear to have three children in this generation, with quite a gap between Hinata and Hanabi. Of course the possibility exist that there could have been additional unseen children, but it's also possible that Sasuke was the only child of his age group around. He did appear to be the only Uchiha entering the academy at the time.
    I am sorry that I do not get your first point. As for the children bit, that was just an example of citizens in the Uchiha who were not likely to know anything about the coup. The others may include the elderly, the infirm, the Uchiha who were just shopkeepers and not ninja... I fail to see any of these as a threat. Not everyone in Konoha is a ninja. To be honest, Itachi could have just killed the Uchiha ninja and fled – it would have had the same effect, he would still be a missing nin (and Konoha would have avoided suspicion), the coup threat would have been squashed, many innocents wouldn't have had to be sacrificed... Sasuke probably wouldn't be as screwed up as he is now (still pretty screwed though if you ask me, as his brother would still be the criminal and his parents would still be dead). Is it possible that Itachi aimed to only kill the plotters, but Tobi (or whoever assisted him) held such a grudge against the Uchiha that he followed through with the rest of them also?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It should still have come down to what Itachi felt was needed. We know Itachi had no problem completing the mission in his own way. I don't believe Sasuke was shown shocked at the mention of them being discriminated against. It was the introduction of them plotting a coup and such that was the surprise to him, for good reason. As for being a spy, that's the thing. The other Uchiha made it clear they already had spies in Anbu, which they were gonna use to check in on Itachi's actions. An additional spy, while useful, shouldn't have been as critically important as his father was making it out to be.
    I still believe that the discrimination came as a shock, but anyways. As for the coup not being known, that is further evidence that other Uchiha (other than Sasuke) would probably not have known about it. Why would Sasuke's own parents tell every other Uchiha except their own son, including the elderly and non-ninja, and make them all not-innocent plotters? But it was an additional spy that was also son of the head of the Uchiha. If he can look trustworthy etc. then the Uchiha will look much less suspicious than if a regular Uchiha was a spy in the Anbu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Well hopefully in a few chapters we'll be told the full story by Itachi, since Kabuto should all but be done for very soon. In fact, it has to be, since there isn't anyone else who would be aware of it still alive, except perhaps the other two Elders.
    I also hope so. I expect that Itachi will tell some things that contradict what Tobi says, but only slightly. However I really wish for Itachi to say something completely different. It has been a long time since we have had a true WTF moment (rather than highly-predictable ones).
    Infinite RAGE!

  4. #649
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    But it was suggested (albeit by Tobi) that Itachi, having grown up in war, was exceptionally fearful of it. Perhaps Itachi saw that Hiruzen's tactics were not working, and (as he knew, from his father, when the attack was going to happen) decided that Danzou's plan was the only good one given the short amount of time left. But the lack of action didn't end up as bad for Hiruzen, as Itachi was willing to take all the blame for it and become a missing nin. As for the 2 examples:
    With Hyuuga, the branch house is discriminated against in house (and not outside – or else Neji wouldn't have felt the need to explain to everyone when fighting Naruto) however the whole village respects the clan. This is the opposite of what Tobi would have us believe.
    The Kiri example baffles me. Were they hunting down their own ninja who had kekkei genkai? If not, perhaps they feared the ninja would cause problems for their own ninja. It is a bad plan, in my opinion, to remove ninja with strong abilities (kekkei genkai are normally very powerful) from your own ranks when peaceful alternatives exist that allow them to increase your villages power.
    Perhaps if Itachi had only killed his father or the top conspirators, I could see it. But the entire clan sans Sasuke, that doesn't seem like something Itachi would have done on his own.

    I'm not talking about how the village treated them, but the in-house relationship between the two houses. Even though the branch house was looked down upon by the main house, Hinata still showed respect towards Neji. Yes, as far as we saw, they were hunting down anyone who possessed a Bloodline Limit, which caused some clans like Haku's to flee and hide. Their effectiveness at war was precisely the reason they were targeted for elimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    I am sorry that I do not get your first point. As for the children bit, that was just an example of citizens in the Uchiha who were not likely to know anything about the coup. The others may include the elderly, the infirm, the Uchiha who were just shopkeepers and not ninja... I fail to see any of these as a threat. Not everyone in Konoha is a ninja. To be honest, Itachi could have just killed the Uchiha ninja and fled – it would have had the same effect, he would still be a missing nin (and Konoha would have avoided suspicion), the coup threat would have been squashed, many innocents wouldn't have had to be sacrificed... Sasuke probably wouldn't be as screwed up as he is now (still pretty screwed though if you ask me, as his brother would still be the criminal and his parents would still be dead). Is it possible that Itachi aimed to only kill the plotters, but Tobi (or whoever assisted him) held such a grudge against the Uchiha that he followed through with the rest of them also?
    When they rejected Madara, it was after the fighting had ended, when the peace of the village had been established. Anyway, I think they all would have been in on the coup. While everyone in Konoha isn't a ninja, as far as we've seen, every Uchiha member likely was. That seems to be how it is with all the ninja clans. For example, Sasuke's mother was said to have been a jounin, even though she seemed like a regular homemaker.

    I suppose it's possible that Tobi was responsible for the rest of the clan being wiped out. It's possible that Tobi had a separate deal with Danzo concerning the massacre. Would explain Tobi's comment toward Danzo when they met after the summit. Though I'm not sure why Itachi would take the blame when part of his plan for Sasuke seemed to have been to have him take Tobi out.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    I still believe that the discrimination came as a shock, but anyways. As for the coup not being known, that is further evidence that other Uchiha (other than Sasuke) would probably not have known about it. Why would Sasuke's own parents tell every other Uchiha except their own son, including the elderly and non-ninja, and make them all not-innocent plotters? But it was an additional spy that was also son of the head of the Uchiha. If he can look trustworthy etc. then the Uchiha will look much less suspicious than if a regular Uchiha was a spy in the Anbu.
    Presuming there were non-ninjas, which seems unlikely, they could still have been of use. Sasuke was said not to have been told because of his age, meaning they may not have told him because he wouldn't have been any use in the coup. Or since he was a child, they though he could have spilled the beans about the coup unintentionally, since children aren't exactly expert secret keepers. Why worry about looking more trustworthy when they were about to stage a coup within a few days.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    I also hope so. I expect that Itachi will tell some things that contradict what Tobi says, but only slightly. However I really wish for Itachi to say something completely different. It has been a long time since we have had a true WTF moment (rather than highly-predictable ones).
    Considering the confrontation between Naruto and Sasuke depend on Naruto protecting Konoha from Sasuke's revenge, potentially changing it so they weren't at fault would ruin that plotline.

  5. #650
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Perhaps if Itachi had only killed his father or the top conspirators, I could see it. But the entire clan sans Sasuke, that doesn't seem like something Itachi would have done on his own.
    Well, it is likely that Tobi helped him – especially as Itachi also suggested something similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    ...every Uchiha member likely was. That seems to be how it is with all the ninja clans. For example, Sasuke's mother was said to have been a jounin, even though she seemed like a regular homemaker.
    I am not so sure that they all were. It doesn't seem plausible that every single Uchiha born would necessarily have the skills required to become a ninja, or that they would necessarily want to become a ninja. As for Sasuke's mother, well Sasuke's dad cared strongly about power – so it could be that he desired to marry a strong woman and found her abilities attractive as well as her personality (just a possibility).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I suppose it's possible that Tobi was responsible for the rest of the clan being wiped out. It's possible that Tobi had a separate deal with Danzo concerning the massacre. Would explain Tobi's comment toward Danzo when they met after the summit. Though I'm not sure why Itachi would take the blame when part of his plan for Sasuke seemed to have been to have him take Tobi out.
    Itachi would take the blame as he wants it to seem that the Uchiha were pure. He did not want any leads back to Konoha, and was willing for his own brother to hate him and become a hero by killing him. Itachi failed in his aims, but he succeeded in disguising the Uchiha's (and Konoha's) guilt. As for Danzou's secret deals – highly plausible, he was a shifty guy all round, and so is Tobi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Presuming there were non-ninjas, which seems unlikely, they could still have been of use. Sasuke was said not to have been told because of his age, meaning they may not have told him because he wouldn't have been any use in the coup. Or since he was a child, they though he could have spilled the beans about the coup unintentionally, since children aren't exactly expert secret keepers. Why worry about looking more trustworthy when they were about to stage a coup within a few days.
    But being of use =/= being guilty. It is unlikely that any non-ninjas would be told, as they are just as likely to spill the beans as Sasuke would be. The more trustworthy you appear, the more shocking the coup would be, and the less likely that Konoha would have suspected it and therefore be prepared for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Considering the confrontation between Naruto and Sasuke depend on Naruto protecting Konoha from Sasuke's revenge, potentially changing it so they weren't at fault would ruin that plotline.
    I am not sure it would ruin the plotline. It would just alter their motives. Naruto is trying to draw Sasuke 'back to the light side' (in a Star Warsey kind of way), and as Sasuke has already lost his mind (so to speak), it is possible that he may still hold his grudge even if he later worked out that Konoha was entirely not at fault in the whole incident. Sasuke is not thinking calmly about the situation at the moment.
    Infinite RAGE!

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Well, it is likely that Tobi helped him – especially as Itachi also suggested something similar.
    Well I meant decision wise. If tobi had acted against Itachi's will, I'm sure Itachi would have attempted to stop him and if something like that happen, I don't see them both coming away unscratched.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    I am not so sure that they all were. It doesn't seem plausible that every single Uchiha born would necessarily have the skills required to become a ninja, or that they would necessarily want to become a ninja. As for Sasuke's mother, well Sasuke's dad cared strongly about power – so it could be that he desired to marry a strong woman and found her abilities attractive as well as her personality (just a possibility).
    Them wanting to be ninjas would likely have been a clan tradition. Probably the same reason Hinata and Shikamaru became ninjas even though their personalities would suggest otherwise. It's not as if they would have to remain ninjas their whole life. Ino's family runs a flower shop and Hinata's father seems like he's retired. As for skills, it doesn't seem like they have to be very skilled in order to undergo the academy training. Even if they had half the skills of Sasuke and Itachi, that would have made them average compared to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Itachi would take the blame as he wants it to seem that the Uchiha were pure. He did not want any leads back to Konoha, and was willing for his own brother to hate him and become a hero by killing him. Itachi failed in his aims, but he succeeded in disguising the Uchiha's (and Konoha's) guilt. As for Danzou's secret deals – highly plausible, he was a shifty guy all round, and so is Tobi.
    That would explain covering for Konoha, but not for Tobi. Tobi's connection to Konoha is antagonistic, so throwing some blame on him wouldn't have shown a light on the Uchiha's guilt or Konoha's role, at least no more then any potential talk with Tobi would have.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    But being of use =/= being guilty. It is unlikely that any non-ninjas would be told, as they are just as likely to spill the beans as Sasuke would be. The more trustworthy you appear, the more shocking the coup would be, and the less likely that Konoha would have suspected it and therefore be prepared for it.
    They knowing of it and helping would have made them just as guilty as the ones plotting it in the first place. An adult would be more likely to be able to keep the secret, since they would understand the risk involved with revealing it. But, as far as we currently know, the whole reason for the coup was that Konoha had no trust towards the Uchiha in the first place and was already under the belief that they were making a power grab. Gaining a little more trust wouldn't mean much if they were already heavily mistrusted. In addition, depending on the timeline, the Uchiha may have already suspected Konoha suspected about the coup if Sarutobi's attempts to negotiate happen around the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    I am not sure it would ruin the plotline. It would just alter their motives. Naruto is trying to draw Sasuke 'back to the light side' (in a Star Warsey kind of way), and as Sasuke has already lost his mind (so to speak), it is possible that he may still hold his grudge even if he later worked out that Konoha was entirely not at fault in the whole incident. Sasuke is not thinking calmly about the situation at the moment.
    Give his recent attitude and actions, Sasuke seems to have become saner then he was before. He's not acting as sane as before. So unless something happens to throw him back, simply playing him of as a crazy killer wouldn't really work.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Perhaps if Itachi had only killed his father or the top conspirators, I could see it. But the entire clan sans Sasuke, that doesn't seem like something Itachi would have done on his own.
    Keep in mind Itachi is a world class ninja who was the strongest of his clan and knew all their secrets. While Sasuke remembers the night being very bloody, it is very likely that Itachi could have killed most of the members of the clan silently, and only when they realized what was happening did he bring out his big guns and start killing people in the street.

    So while Tobi may have helped him, it isn't impossible for Itachi to do it by himself. If anything, I would think Tobi killed Itachi's mother and perhaps his father as he might not have been able to bring himself to kill them.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Well I meant decision wise. If tobi had acted against Itachi's will, I'm sure Itachi would have attempted to stop him and if something like that happen, I don't see them both coming away unscratched.
    Perhaps Itachi did try to stop Tobi, we do not know all the details of this night yet. That would be one way of explaining how Itachi knew he could not harm Tobi, and therefore why he tried his sneak attack with Sasuke (amongst other things).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Them wanting to be ninjas would likely have been a clan tradition. Probably the same reason Hinata and Shikamaru became ninjas even though their personalities would suggest otherwise. It's not as if they would have to remain ninjas their whole life. Ino's family runs a flower shop and Hinata's father seems like he's retired. As for skills, it doesn't seem like they have to be very skilled in order to undergo the academy training. Even if they had half the skills of Sasuke and Itachi, that would have made them average compared to others.
    But clan tradition still wouldn't mean that every member obeys it. But Itachi and Sasuke are considerably more skilful than the other trainees at the academy, more than 2 times more skillful than Obito was (for example). There is a chance that the parents of some Uchiha didn't want to send their children off to train, and possibly get hurt, acting as a ninja for Konoha. Just like it is possible that not all Hyuugas were trained as ninjas, and not all of Ino's family either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    That would explain covering for Konoha, but not for Tobi. Tobi's connection to Konoha is antagonistic, so throwing some blame on him wouldn't have shown a light on the Uchiha's guilt or Konoha's role, at least no more then any potential talk with Tobi would have.
    Perhaps Danzou had a sneaky deal with Tobi to keep him out of the limelight. It is only recently that Tobi has desired to be in the spotlight, even in Akatsuki he only joined when there was a free space, was thought of as an idiot, even though he supposedly started it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    They knowing of it and helping would have made them just as guilty as the ones plotting it in the first place. An adult would be more likely to be able to keep the secret, since they would understand the risk involved with revealing it. But, as far as we currently know, the whole reason for the coup was that Konoha had no trust towards the Uchiha in the first place and was already under the belief that they were making a power grab. Gaining a little more trust wouldn't mean much if they were already heavily mistrusted. In addition, depending on the timeline, the Uchiha may have already suspected Konoha suspected about the coup if Sarutobi's attempts to negotiate happen around the same time.
    But why should they necessarily know? If there were Uchiha who did not have the personalities that would accept a coup, why would those who are plotting tell them? Do they gain guilt by proxy of being a Uchiha and having skills that could have been useful had they been plotting? As far as we currently know, the Uchiha did not like Senju rule. However all this information was obtained from a rather unreliable source, Tobi, who has an alternative motive, Sasuke + Mooneye plan, and the hokage at the time, Hiruzen, was not Senju. The Uchiha must have known that Konoha suspected about the coup, as otherwise Sarutobi would have had to be diplomatically trying to sort something else out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Give his recent attitude and actions, Sasuke seems to have become saner then he was before. He's not acting as sane as before. So unless something happens to throw him back, simply playing him of as a crazy killer wouldn't really work.
    Given his recent attitude and actions he still wants to kill every man, woman and child in Konoha. This is still not sane, even if slightly more sane than before. Until he starts targetting only those who were involved, and stops acting with irrational hatred, starts listening to his brother's desires and properly considering them (and not thinking he knows what is best for dead Itachi), stops trying to kill Naruto for the sole reason of being a Konoha ninja (even though he considers (or did) Naruto his only friend). This is hardly sane thinking.
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Keep in mind Itachi is a world class ninja who was the strongest of his clan and knew all their secrets. While Sasuke remembers the night being very bloody, it is very likely that Itachi could have killed most of the members of the clan silently, and only when they realized what was happening did he bring out his big guns and start killing people in the street.

    So while Tobi may have helped him, it isn't impossible for Itachi to do it by himself. If anything, I would think Tobi killed Itachi's mother and perhaps his father as he might not have been able to bring himself to kill them.
    True, but I was talking more about his reasoning then his actions. I don't think Itachi would have allowed them all to be killed unless he felt there was no other choice nor would he allow Tobi to act against his wishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Perhaps Itachi did try to stop Tobi, we do not know all the details of this night yet. That would be one way of explaining how Itachi knew he could not harm Tobi, and therefore why he tried his sneak attack with Sasuke (amongst other things).
    I don't know. Tobi acknowledged that had Itachi known more about him, presumably his ability to use Izanagi, he would be killed by him. An extended battle seems like it would be something that would allow Itachi to figure out Tobi's abilities and how to kill him, or at least predict how he would escape death. After all, pretty much every battle he's been shown in, Tobi has been injured without major trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    But clan tradition still wouldn't mean that every member obeys it. But Itachi and Sasuke are considerably more skilful than the other trainees at the academy, more than 2 times more skillful than Obito was (for example). There is a chance that the parents of some Uchiha didn't want to send their children off to train, and possibly get hurt, acting as a ninja for Konoha. Just like it is possible that not all Hyuugas were trained as ninjas, and not all of Ino's family either.
    It would depending on how they were raised, especially if they were raised to be prideful of their clan. Same with sending their children off, since they would still need the means to defend themselves if the village was ever attacked. So while the possibility exist that they wouldn't need to follow the clan's tradition, so far we haven't seen an example of one.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Perhaps Danzou had a sneaky deal with Tobi to keep him out of the limelight. It is only recently that Tobi has desired to be in the spotlight, even in Akatsuki he only joined when there was a free space, was thought of as an idiot, even though he supposedly started it.
    Well any deal Danzo made with Tobi wouldn't prevent Itachi from spilling the beans on him. And I think Tobi came out of the shadows because his plan towards the Bijuus were coming to completion and Tobi wanted to take a personal hand in it without revealing the truth. It wasn't until Itachi was dead that Tobi stopped acting and reveal himself to Kisame. So it seems like his act was simply for Itachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    But why should they necessarily know? If there were Uchiha who did not have the personalities that would accept a coup, why would those who are plotting tell them? Do they gain guilt by proxy of being a Uchiha and having skills that could have been useful had they been plotting? As far as we currently know, the Uchiha did not like Senju rule. However all this information was obtained from a rather unreliable source, Tobi, who has an alternative motive, Sasuke + Mooneye plan, and the hokage at the time, Hiruzen, was not Senju. The Uchiha must have known that Konoha suspected about the coup, as otherwise Sarutobi would have had to be diplomatically trying to sort something else out.
    They wouldn't necessarily know unless they were told, but given the way things turned out and the emphasis on how Sasuke didn't know, it appears they did know. Itachi, being in on the coup, would have been in the best position to know who exactly knew about the coup. With the Senju being made up of multiple clans, it wouldn't be strange that most of the clans in Konoha were originally part of the Senju clan. And the way Tobi spoke during the summit, Senju wasn't merely about blood, but a way of thinking. So Sarutobi, following Hashirama's teaching, probably would have been seen as Senju rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Given his recent attitude and actions he still wants to kill every man, woman and child in Konoha. This is still not sane, even if slightly more sane than before. Until he starts targetting only those who were involved, and stops acting with irrational hatred, starts listening to his brother's desires and properly considering them (and not thinking he knows what is best for dead Itachi), stops trying to kill Naruto for the sole reason of being a Konoha ninja (even though he considers (or did) Naruto his only friend). This is hardly sane thinking.
    Before reuniting with Itachi, Sasuke had a crazed look in his eyes and would attack without any provocation. But since their team-up, Sasuke's been acting like his pre-summit self, less cray looking and more willing to not to kill. Not only that, but he seems to be willing to listen to Itachi's advice in battle and obey, which isn't something that crazy Sasuke would have likely done.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @ Rikudou king

    Sasuke even pre summit still wanted to destroy Konoha.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @Rikudou King - spoilered as rather a lot of it this time round.
    Spoiler show
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    I've really been trying to overlook Kishi's bad writing but it just seems to get worse week after week. Keeping up with this manga almost feels like punishment now. lol He really needs to finish it.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Itachi is skilled, but he is not unbeatable – Tobi's skill set (namely his ghost form move thing) beats Itachi's Susanoo, legendary weapons, Katon tech, Amaterasu and bunshin techs. Genjutsu is a mystery, but Tobi has not been shown to be beaten by this so who knows either way.
    I think otherwise. In my opinion Tobis countless Sharingans (Izanagi) beats everything Itachi has in his arsenal. In order to kill Itachi Tobi has to solidify, which makes him vulnerable against Itachis MS techniques. Tobi wasn't fast enough to use his intangibility, even tough he realized that the 3 tomoe Sharingan changed to MS. Which saved him that time was Izanagi. That's of course my thought, because after that Tobi appeared unharmed.
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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Sasuke even pre summit still wanted to destroy Konoha.
    His target was Konoha, but he was specifically targeting Danzo and the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    This means that surely Itachi must have tried, or at least threatened, to kill Tobi before. Also, what you say makes Tobi sound weak. Let us look at the 3 cases where he was injured.
    1 – Minato – Hiraishin to Kunai, catch Tobi unawares – Itachi has nothing like this that we know of.
    2 – The Aburame guy (can't remember his name – Danzou's subordinate) - has an ability where Tobi can not physically touch him without getting 'poisoned'. Tobi has yet to show any ranged abilities outside of his genjutsu. Itachi has nothing like this either. It also could be argued that Tobi let himself get hurt here so that he could set up a scenario where he could catch both of Danzou's subordinates, as losing limbs has never been all that big a deal to Tobi (but this is a different matter).
    3 – Konan – Set up a trap specifically desgined to constantly explode for longer than 5 minutes. This was something using her paper jutsu. Again, Itachi has nothing like this.
    Just because 3 other people, with very specific skills, have managed to hit Tobi, does not mean that Itachi can. Itachi is skilled, but he is not unbeatable – Tobi's skill set (namely his ghost form move thing) beats Itachi's Susanoo, legendary weapons, Katon tech, Amaterasu and bunshin techs. Genjutsu is a mystery, but Tobi has not been shown to be beaten by this so who knows either way.
    Threaten maybe, but actually attacking doesn't seem likely given the way Tobi spoke. Anyway, Itachi is one of the most skilled ninjas around, with a collection of some of the most powerful techniques anyone has. He wouldn't need Hiraishin when he has an equally as fast attack in Amaterasu, nor the ability to poison when he has the means to seal anyone with a single swipe of the Totsuka blade. That's not even getting into his specialty of genjutsu, genius intelligences, and foreknowledge of Uchiha abilities. We've already seen that, through the trap he placed in Sasuke's eye, that changing from regular Sharingan to MS and shooting Amaterasu could easily catch Tobi off guard. And don't forget how tricky Itachi can be with his usage of his Crow Clones, which are a cheaper version of the Shadow Clones.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    But being proud of your clan doesn't mean that you would try to copy everything they do. It's like supporting a local football team, being proud of their achievements, but not caring about playing football yourself. But then by that logic everyone in the whole naruto world (or at least everyone in Konoha – Ramen guy included) should train in ninjutsu, as then they can defend themselves should their towns/hamlets/villages be attacked. The village is one of the strongest ninja villages in the whole world, has a constant watch of highly skilled ninja 24/7, and has enough of a fear factor to scare away most troublemakers. This alone would allow children to grow up without having to learn ninjutsu for their own defence.
    True, but we're not talking about copying everything. It was mention in the first fan databook that the majority of children who don't pass the genin test and become ninjas go on to other things in the village. We specifically saw that while there were a bunch of students at the academy, only a handful would past. So it does appear as if going to the academy is a standard for them, probably because it's the only school they seem to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    But it would prevent Itachi. This is solely because if Itachi spilled the beans than Konoha would look evil – through Danzou looking evil. Therefore if Itachi and Tobi really did kill off the Uchiha together, and Danzou had made a deal with Tobi, then Itachi would feel like taking all the blame himself as:
    1/ Danzou, and Konoha, would look innocent
    2/ Konoha would not be seen to have made deals with external forces to kill off their own citizens
    3/ The Uchiha would still look pure and respectable
    There would be no danger in making Konoha look evil if he threw all the blame on Tobi, especially if he emphasized that Tobi was a liar. Itachi preempting Tobi would have put anything Tobi claimed later on in doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    I disagree. Given the way things turned out and how Sasuke didn't know we can not say if they did know or not. We can just say that Itachi (and Tobi) were especially careful in killing off anyone, just in case someone survived who did know. I still find it incredibly unlikely that every single Uchiha other than Sasuke did know. So therefore the way of thinking of the Senju – about peace, unity and strength through friendship was distinctly un-Uchiha and these thoughts led to the suppression of the Uchiha?!?
    With both Itachi and Shisui taking a part in the meeting to plan the coup, there's no reason he wouldn't be aware of who was in on the coup. Since the reason Sasuke wasn't told was specifically due to his age, if they weren't that young, then there's no reason they shouldn't have been involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Since their team-up, the only person they have seen is Kabuto. Sasuke has not had time to be mad-crazy yet, give him time when this fight is over and I am sure he will be back to his civilian killing, irrational, conspiratorial, anti-Konoha mood again.
    Sasuke's had plenty of opportunities to act as he previously did, especially with Kabuto insulting Itachi and such. Former Sasuke would have yelled quite a bit at a person for doing that.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    His target was Konoha, but he was specifically targeting Danzo and the others.
    Seriously...

    Sasuke knew what would happen if he went to Konoha. He was expecting resistance and he was fine with slaughtering them. Even Tobi questioned him about what his plan of destroying Konoha was.

    Sasuke was set on destroying Konoha the moment he heard about Itachi.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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