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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

  1. #661
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Seriously...

    Sasuke knew what would happen if he went to Konoha. He was expecting resistance and he was fine with slaughtering them. Even Tobi questioned him about what his plan of destroying Konoha was.

    Sasuke was set on destroying Konoha the moment he heard about Itachi.
    While I don't doubt his intentions I have to wonder if Sasuke has it in him to kill children. Fighting shinobi is one thing, but while crazy, I don't think he's cold blooded enough to go through the streets burning and killing every man woman and child.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    While I don't doubt his intentions I have to wonder if Sasuke has it in him to kill children. Fighting shinobi is one thing, but while crazy, I don't think he's cold blooded enough to go through the streets burning and killing every man woman and child.
    Sasuke's idea of Konoha's responsibility as a whole is retarded, so he would likely believe those children to be responsible of "enjoying" the peace Itachi created, and thus he wouldn't feel a thing while slaughtering them.
    When driven by his emotions, Sasuke showed to be one of the dumber character in the manga

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    While I don't doubt his intentions I have to wonder if Sasuke has it in him to kill children. Fighting shinobi is one thing, but while crazy, I don't think he's cold blooded enough to go through the streets burning and killing every man woman and child.
    When hatred consumes a man, you'd find that it likely that, reasoning is beyond him.
    1)Itachi doesn't want to kill the leaf yet Sasuke does (What?)
    2) Sasuke said to Kakashi http://www.mangareader.net/93-47297-...apter-483.html (chapter 483 page 14-18 "bring back my....") then http://www.mangareader.net/93-47597-...apter-484.html chapter 484 8-17 he said "they're all laughing it up...."
    3) He's said to tobi he's gonna kill the leaf

    There's so many things wrong with Sasuke's reasoning becasue at one time he was ignorant of the truth about Itachi and he wanted to take his life soo badly but luckily for him, he learned the truth and now the leaf who are also ignorant of the truth deserve to die by his hands.

    Yh, he's just messed up ^_^

    ---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Sasuke's idea of Konoha's responsibility as a whole is retarded, so he would likely believe those children to be responsible of "enjoying" the peace Itachi created, and thus he wouldn't feel a thing while slaughtering them.
    When driven by his emotions, Sasuke showed to be one of the dumber character in the manga
    yep exactly this ^_^

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Seriously...

    Sasuke knew what would happen if he went to Konoha. He was expecting resistance and he was fine with slaughtering them. Even Tobi questioned him about what his plan of destroying Konoha was.

    Sasuke was set on destroying Konoha the moment he heard about Itachi.
    You're presuming he didn't or wouldn't have had a plan to get into Konoha without having to fight the entire village.

    Now I won't deny that Sasuke likely wouldn't have been opposed to taking down anyone who attempted to get in his way, but as we saw during his infiltration of the summit, he was capable of going after his targets without alerting everyone. There's would be little stopping him from attempting the same tactic against Konoha, apart from the issue of not knowing who Danzo was specifically. I think it says quite a bit that Sasuke choose to go after Danzo instead of sticking around and taking the opportunity to attack a weaken village.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Sasuke's idea of Konoha's responsibility as a whole is retarded, so he would likely believe those children to be responsible of "enjoying" the peace Itachi created, and thus he wouldn't feel a thing while slaughtering them.
    When driven by his emotions, Sasuke showed to be one of the dumber character in the manga
    Considering at that point he was psychotic, his actions and belief not being reasonable isn't strange at all.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; May 17, 2012 at 03:05 PM.

  5. #665
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    When hatred consumes a man, you'd find that it likely that, reasoning is beyond him.
    1)Itachi doesn't want to kill the leaf yet Sasuke does (What?)
    2) Sasuke said to Kakashi http://www.mangareader.net/93-47297-...apter-483.html (chapter 483 page 14-18 "bring back my....") then http://www.mangareader.net/93-47597-...apter-484.html chapter 484 8-17 he said "they're all laughing it up...."
    3) He's said to tobi he's gonna kill the leaf

    There's so many things wrong with Sasuke's reasoning becasue at one time he was ignorant of the truth about Itachi and he wanted to take his life soo badly but luckily for him, he learned the truth and now the leaf who are also ignorant of the truth deserve to die by his hands.
    First off you have to consider that Sasuke doesn't agree with what Itachi did.

    Itachi felt that Konoha>Uchiha.

    Sasuke fells Konoha<Uchiha

    That is where this whole argument with Sasuke being wrong for not following Itachi's wishes, because many (including myself) have a hard time believing Itachi was 100% right with what he did.

    Ask yourself. Could you slaughter your entire family if it meant saving your city? That is not something that is easy to deal with.

    Sasuke wants to kill the leaf because he is young and so damaged thanks to his brother and the failure of his village to take care of him that he has become delusioned. There is a long list of people responsible for the Uchiha genocide, Madara, The Second Hokage, Danzou, Sarturobi, the Elders, Itachi, and the Heads of the Uchiha clan. All those people share in the responsibility of all this death. And you know who else shares it? The ninja of Konoha that fostered the isolation of the Uchiha.

    In fact, it truly is the ninja system as a whole that is at fault for what happened to the Uchiha. As we have seen, in the ninja world, if you have a problem what do you do? You eradicate it with extreme prejudice. This is what happened to the Uchiha. To Pain's enemies and their allies in Ame. To the Bloodline families in Kiri. And probably to the Uzumaki clan as well.

    Sasuke is simply playing by the rules that Konoha established when they killed EVERY man woman and child in his family save him and his brother. You can't change the rules just because they don't work for you anymore. From the outside looking in it's very easy to see that Sasuke is wrong for wanting to crush the leaf, but then you must also ackwoledge that it was wrong for the Leaf to foster the behavior that would allow for the ENTIRE Uchiha clan to be destroyed. Not everyone killed was guilty of treason. There was no trial, no jury, just an executioner in Itachi and a Judge in Danzou and Sarturobi and the Elders.

    ---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Sasuke's idea of Konoha's responsibility as a whole is retarded, so he would likely believe those children to be responsible of "enjoying" the peace Itachi created, and thus he wouldn't feel a thing while slaughtering them.
    When driven by his emotions, Sasuke showed to be one of the dumber character in the manga
    Sasuke's emotions are the way they are thanks to years of mental and emotional trauma that was left unchecked by his peers who were supposed to care for him so much. IMO, none of the adults in his village took the time to say "Hey, maybe we should check on this kid after all he's been through".

    No, he was simply looked at as a prize, he was put in the care of Kakashi who we all knew did a bang up job, and thus eventually left the village.

    He wants to crush the Leaf because they crushed his family. Eye for an Eye ideology. His entire family didn't deserve to die did they? He wants to bring suffering to these people because he suffered, because his clan was killed off, and because no one suffered any consequences for anything but him and Itachi. Everyone went on living their lives while his family (who helped found and later protect Konoha for close to a hundred years) were forgotten and killed.

    Perspective must be seen in this scenerio, Sasuke's and the perspective of the culture he is in, where killing is acceptable behavior.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  6. #666
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    You're presuming he didn't or wouldn't have had a plan to get into Konoha without having to fight the entire village.

    Now I won't deny that Sasuke likely wouldn't have been opposed to taking down anyone who attempted to get in his way, but as we saw during his infiltration of the summit, he was capable of going after his targets without alerting everyone. There's would be little stopping him from attempting the same tactic against Konoha, apart from the issue of not knowing who Danzo was specifically. I think it says quite a bit that Sasuke choose to go after Danzo instead of sticking around and taking the opportunity to attack a weaken village.
    No, the reason Sasuke went after Danzou at the summit was because Konoha was destroyed as he was told by Tobi, he had nothing there left to do. For all he knew 90% of the konoha people were dead including the Hokage and some of the elders.

    And he never had a plan, thats exactly what Tobi questioned him about. Even his plan to go after Danzou was ridiculously retarded. Who tries to assassinate a Kage in a Kage summit?

    Sasuke has been set on destoying Konoha from the moment he heard what Itachi did for the village. Its not something that just came up to him when he went psychotic.

    ---------- Post added at 05:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Heads of the Uchiha clan.
    Are the only people responsible for theyre own slaughter. Its not like the Uchiha were forced into slavery or treated like second rate citizens. They were loved and were Konohas most powerful clan.

    It would make sense if they were abused etc. But no evidence of that EVER happening.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke is simply playing by the rules that Konoha established when they killed EVERY man woman and child in his family save him and his brother.
    What Sasuke and you guys seem to miss is that 2 Uchihas slaughtered the Uchiha clan and they were open about it to Sasuke. I dont get how that translates to Konoha doing it

    Quote Quote:
    but then you must also ackwoledge that it was wrong for the Leaf to foster the behavior that would allow for the ENTIRE Uchiha clan to be destroyed. Not everyone killed was guilty of treason. There was no trial, no jury, just an executioner in Itachi and a Judge in Danzou and Sarturobi and the Elders.
    Itachi killed the clan, he could have simply decided to not go against them. And there is no solid evidence that Itachi was ordered by anyone.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke's emotions are the way they are thanks to years of mental and emotional trauma that was left unchecked by his peers who were supposed to care for him so much. IMO, none of the adults in his village took the time to say "Hey, maybe we should check on this kid after all he's been through".
    Oh please not this again. Konoha was not obligated nor was it responsible for Sasuke. What was special about Sasuke? That he might or might not awaken the Sharingan?

    Sasuke was not a threat nor was his mental state at that time. People have experienced trauma and some had to live with it walking around the village... Yet non of them got special treatment. Heck the son of the man who saved the village and whose mother was the LAST Uzumaki and previous Jinchuuriki never got any special treatment or therapy.

    So lets drop this whole Konoha should have babysat Sasuke because he has gone through a lot. He was treated like everyone else if not better.

    Quote Quote:
    No, he was simply looked at as a prize, he was put in the care of Kakashi who we all knew did a bang up job, and thus eventually left the village.
    Sasuke left the village off his own greediness. What Kakashi said hit home with a bit until the sound 5 attacked him. He left for the lust of power. Not because Kakashi couldnt save him. Heck even Naruto couldnt.

    Quote Quote:
    He wants to crush the Leaf because they crushed his family. Eye for an Eye ideology.
    If he wants anyone dead it should be Tobi. Konoha has close to nothing to do with the Uchiha massacre.

    Quote Quote:
    where killing is acceptable behavior.
    Killing innocent is not an acceptable behavior... Turning into a terrorist is not an acceptable behavior... I dont get why you guys constantly make excuses for Sasuke.

    Konoha was never and still isnt indebted to treating Sasuke like a king. To them he is just another criminal and they shouldnt treat him otherwise until he gives them reason to.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Considering at that point he was psychotic, his actions and belief not being reasonable isn't strange at all.
    Why he was psychotic though?
    Despite all his big talks when Taka faced against Bee, he was manipulated pretty easily apparently

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Sasuke's emotions are the way they are thanks to years of mental and emotional trauma that was left unchecked by his peers who were supposed to care for him so much. IMO, none of the adults in his village took the time to say "Hey, maybe we should check on this kid after all he's been through".

    No, he was simply looked at as a prize, he was put in the care of Kakashi who we all knew did a bang up job, and thus eventually left the village.
    His "mental trauma" wasn't unchecked by his peers, since he pretty much was loved by everyone except Naruto ( which still could relate to him ), and even then it was Sasuke that shut himself up.
    Sasuke's hate towards Konoha's elders is understandable, what isn't understandable is him going all genocidal on the village and him being proud of being an Uchiha.
    Itachi pretty much said it, Uchihas became a power-hungry, overly prideful clan, a clan that deserved its fate, and yet in recent chapters you see Sasuke defending the Uchihas, again.

    Also he left because he wanted more power, not because Kakashi was a bad teacher, please don't make Sasuke nobler of better of what he was at the time, he wanted power, so he left.
    He didn't left because Kakashi treated him badly, if we really want to go there Kakashi favored Sasuke over Naruto and Sakura, big time.

    Quote Quote:
    He wants to crush the Leaf because they crushed his family. Eye for an Eye ideology. His entire family didn't deserve to die did they? He wants to bring suffering to these people because he suffered, because his clan was killed off, and because no one suffered any consequences for anything but him and Itachi. Everyone went on living their lives while his family (who helped found and later protect Konoha for close to a hundred years) were forgotten and killed.

    Perspective must be seen in this scenerio, Sasuke's and the perspective of the culture he is in, where killing is acceptable behavior.
    Uchihas are considered, in the general eye of the Narutoverse, as an honorable and noble clan, the only one that took the shame is Itachi.
    Sasuke getting psychotic about it simply shows that he is acting dumb, how can Konoha know that Itachi is a hero? Again his anger towards the elders is justified, towards a village that treated him good is not.

  8. #668
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    No, the reason Sasuke went after Danzou at the summit was because Konoha was destroyed as he was told by Tobi, he had nothing there left to do. For all he knew 90% of the konoha people were dead including the Hokage and some of the elders.

    And he never had a plan, thats exactly what Tobi questioned him about. Even his plan to go after Danzou was ridiculously retarded. Who tries to assassinate a Kage in a Kage summit?

    Sasuke has been set on destoying Konoha from the moment he heard what Itachi did for the village. Its not something that just came up to him when he went psychotic.
    Him and Taka was told what happen in Konoha and how Naruto had defeated pain, so he knew they had survived. Besides, if he doesn't care about some of them surviving, then his goal isn't really killing all of Konoha, is it? It's like I was saying, his goal was specifically Danzo and co, but he didn't care one way or another if anyone else was killed in the process.

    And his plan wasn't to take Danzo out during the summit. The plan was to figure out who was Danzo and then ambush him after the summit on his way back to Konoha. It pretty much was something that just happen, as he went from warning Suigetsu not to kill anyone to killing needlessly himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Why he was psychotic though?
    Despite all his big talks when Taka faced against Bee, he was manipulated pretty easily apparently
    Who knows, though I wouldn't say he was manipulated easily. Going along with Tobi's plan because he's getting what he wants also isn't the same ting as being manipulated. He did the same with Orochimaru til there was nothing more to gain, at which point he had no problem turning on his benefactor.

  9. #669
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Are the only people responsible for theyre own slaughter. Its not like the Uchiha were forced into slavery or treated like second rate citizens. They were loved and were Konohas most powerful clan.

    It would make sense if they were abused etc. But no evidence of that EVER happening.

    What Sasuke and you guys seem to miss is that 2 Uchihas slaughtered the Uchiha clan and they were open about it to Sasuke. I dont get how that translates to Konoha doing it
    O because Danzou just started plotting against the Uchiha after they got suspicious and were planning a coup? You had an adviser of the village was interested in their eyes don't be blind to that, he even stole Shusui's before the genocide even happened.

    And they were loved? No, Sasuke was loved after they all died, I've never seen anyone say how "loved" the Clan was, just Sasuke.

    As for evidence, look how they were isolated into the Military Police, put in a corner of Konoha away from everyone else. You don't have to take Tobi'sword but he had no reason to lie about that, thus far the only thing he lied about was him attacking Konoha with the Kyuubi because he wanted to be innocent to Sasuke.

    And Konoha allowed Itachi to do kill them (the didn't know about Tobi). Hiruzen stood by as Hokage and just let this shit go down. Him the "God of Shinobi" allowed for this to happen. He is the face of Konoha, and thus HE is responsible since all this shit went down under his and the elders watch.


    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Itachi killed the clan, he could have simply decided to not go against them. And there is no solid evidence that Itachi was ordered by anyone.
    Then why was he pleading with Sarturobi to let Sasuke live? It's plain as day he was ordered to do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Oh please not this again. Konoha was not obligated nor was it responsible for Sasuke. What was special about Sasuke? That he might or might not awaken the Sharingan?

    Sasuke was not a threat nor was his mental state at that time. People have experienced trauma and some had to live with it walking around the village... Yet non of them got special treatment. Heck the son of the man who saved the village and whose mother was the LAST Uzumaki and previous Jinchuuriki never got any special treatment or therapy.

    So lets drop this whole Konoha should have babysat Sasuke because he has gone through a lot. He was treated like everyone else if not better.
    And Naruto was the exception. Look at Orochimaru, Look at Sasuke. Look at Kakashi until Obito's death and Minato taking him under his wing.

    You say they weren't obligated to him? He was a ninja under their care as a child, his clan was one of the two clans who founded their entire village, and as A CHILD, he just had his entire clan slaughtered by his brother. His parents didn't get divorced and he wasn't having trouble in school, he saw them dead and then his brother mentally tortured him. Don't be ignorant to that fact. He NEEDED help, much like Naruto and Orochimaru needed help and he wasn't given any.

    Naruto even admits that his and Sasuke's roles could have been easily switched.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Sasuke left the village off his own greediness. What Kakashi said hit home with a bit until the sound 5 attacked him. He left for the lust of power. Not because Kakashi couldnt save him. Heck even Naruto couldnt.

    If he wants anyone dead it should be Tobi. Konoha has close to nothing to do with the Uchiha massacre.
    Sasuke was also under the influence of a cursed seal, had just been mind fucked AGAIN by his brother and Kakashi left a 13 year old to his own devices. Do you remember being 13? Were you as wise and intelligent as you are now? And did you have a half human sociopath whispering in your ear wanting to give you power so you could achieve your life long goal?

    As for Konoha, they let this happen under their watch! And they knew about it! How are they not at fault for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Killing innocent is not an acceptable behavior... Turning into a terrorist is not an acceptable behavior... I dont get why you guys constantly make excuses for Sasuke.

    Konoha was never and still isnt indebted to treating Sasuke like a king. To them he is just another criminal and they shouldnt treat him otherwise until he gives them reason to.
    This is not acceptable behavior...in our world. In case you haven't noticed, it's acceptable behavior to higher tr people to kill those you don't like in Naruto's world, so get some perspective.

    And no, they shouldn't treat him like a King, but you would ignorant to think that Konoha holds no responsibility for Sasuke. He is a ninja from their village after-all.

    Nagato put it perfectly when he spoke of Konoha's past to Tsuande. Tsuande tried to play dumb saying they changed without fully acknowledging all the mistakes they made in the past. Sasuke, the massacre, half of the Uchiha history are mistakes made by Konoha. To deny that is to deny the facts of the manga and deny how the world of Naruto works.

    ---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    His "mental trauma" wasn't unchecked by his peers, since he pretty much was loved by everyone except Naruto ( which still could relate to him ), and even then it was Sasuke that shut himself up.
    Sasuke's hate towards Konoha's elders is understandable, what isn't understandable is him going all genocidal on the village and him being proud of being an Uchiha.
    Itachi pretty much said it, Uchihas became a power-hungry, overly prideful clan, a clan that deserved its fate, and yet in recent chapters you see Sasuke defending the Uchihas, again.
    Really? The only one who ever gave a damn was Kakashi and he did a half assed job. Being loved isn't having someone check on your mental health and making sure you aren't going nuts, that is what therapy is for.

    As for Naruto, he even admitted himself he couldn't understand Sasuke until he lost Jiraiya, so that point is moot. The whole time Naruto had no idea what Sasuke was going through and was simply competing with him and wanting him back because he missed him for selfish reasons, that changed after Jiraiya died.

    And again, you are assuming Itachi is correct. EVERYONE in this manga is power hungry and feels a sense of entitlement to one degree or another. And Sasuke is defending his family. Should he just let them go down in history as bad people? Look at when Naruto defending his father from the Raikage. People defend their family right or wrong you can't fault them for that.

    People need to look past the notion that Itachi is always right, because he isn't. The man slaughtered his family without even attempting peace from the looks of it, and then sent his brother down the path he did. That is ALL on Itachi, Hiruzen, and the Elders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Also he left because he wanted more power, not because Kakashi was a bad teacher, please don't make Sasuke nobler of better of what he was at the time, he wanted power, so he left.
    He didn't left because Kakashi treated him badly, if we really want to go there Kakashi favored Sasuke over Naruto and Sakura, big time.
    And Kakashi did little to stop him. He knew what he was going through but left a mentally unstable 13 year old to his own devices. You don't leave a kid like that in the real world with a gun and car do you? That's essentially the equivelent of what Kakashi did.

    And Kakashi favored Sasuke over Naruto and Sakura because Sasuke needed him more. Naruto was happy go lucky, Sakura had a family. Despite Naruto's harsh upbringing, he wasn't in the same place mentally or emotionally as Sasuke, he was stronger than him in that regard.


    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Uchihas are considered, in the general eye of the Narutoverse, as an honorable and noble clan, the only one that took the shame is Itachi.
    Sasuke getting psychotic about it simply shows that he is acting dumb, how can Konoha know that Itachi is a hero? Again his anger towards the elders is justified, towards a village that treated him good is not.
    Are they now? I don't remember them being called honorable and noble.

    Sasuke wants the people to suffer like his family did. There were innocents in his family that died, and he wants to do the same to Konoha.

    Look I am not agreeing with what Sasuke is doing, but you have to look at it from HIS PERSPECTIVE.

    He wants Konoha to suffer like his family did. He is looking to trade an eye for an eye. That isn't right, but it makes sense coming from him. And in his world, were killing is acceptable, this isn't as outrageous as it is in our own world.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @ Delbi (spoilered for space)
    Spoiler show
    Infinite RAGE!

  11. #671
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @Zimbardo
    1) Sasuke is not innocent in any of this. I believe he is wrong in wanting to hurt the innocent for the suffering of his clan (but I'd be damned to say he is wrong for wanting all the elders dead). However, people seem to be caught in this notion that there is no logic behind what he is doing. While it is certainly true that he is off his rocker at the moment, there is some logic to what he is doing. He is waging a war against Konoha because of the actions of their leaders, and wants innocent Konoha civilians to suffer like some of his innocent family did. Eye for an eye. It isn't right, but it makes sense, this has happened in warfare since the dawn of time.

    2) Konoha's leadership, and in large part Konoha as a whole is at fault for two things.
    1) Allowing this entire massacre to happen in the first place.
    2) Allowing Sasuke to leave the village and allowing his mental state to fall to where it was.

    Number 1 obviously falls at the feet of the great, yet spineless Hiruzen, and the Elders for allowing all this to happen. They didn't attempt to arrest or even assassinate those responsible and leave the innocents, they went for total annihilation and framed Itachi. If the rest of the village knew about what really happened, the entire village would have been in chaos.

    Number 2 falls on not only the leadership of Konoha, but any intelligent shinobi adult in the village. Sasuke, Naruto, and Orochimaru are examples of three children with incredible gifts and abilities that were basically left to their own devices and allowed in two cases to go rogue and leave the village. Credit Naruto for being a strong person and overcoming what Sasuke and Orochimaru could not.

    Not once did we see Sasuke receiving some kind of council for his deep rooted problems. Not once did the Hokage take the time to make sure the last Uchiha loyal to his village was good. The whole Sasuke situation could have been an easy fix, but instead of doing what needed to be done, we have Kakashi giving a half assed speach to a mentally unstable 13 year old. 13!

    This is what people don't like to grasp, that Sasuke was only 13 when he left the village. We say Sasuke shouldn't be excused for his actions without understanding that he barely knew the consequences of his actions when he left. You had Hokage's, Jounin, all sorts of people that fucked up in this regard by allowing his mental and emotional state to deteriorate and allowing someone like Orochimaru to have a physical influence on him that was only kept in check by a seal that fed on his mental and emotional strength!

    I fully grasp the concept that ninja as young as 13 in Kakashi's case are made into Jounin that can command people, take on responsibility, and know right from wrong. But as we saw with Kakashi, he wasn't ready for such a responsibility. And Sasuke, a genin, obviously was not mature enough to handle the situation he was put in.

    3) For all of Sasuke's wrong doing, he is a product of Konoha, a product of the ninja system. Naruto's quest for peace (which will likely off the ninja system) is to prevent the world from spawning another Sasuke. For people to place all the blame on Sasuke is hard for me to swallow. Granted, his actions now are becoming more and more inexcusable (and he does deserve to die), yet all this could have been prevented and yet it wasn't.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    @Zimbardo
    1) Sasuke is not innocent in any of this. I believe he is wrong in wanting to hurt the innocent for the suffering of his clan (but I'd be damned to say he is wrong for wanting all the elders dead). However, people seem to be caught in this notion that there is no logic behind what he is doing. While it is certainly true that he is off his rocker at the moment, there is some logic to what he is doing. He is waging a war against Konoha because of the actions of their leaders, and wants innocent Konoha civilians to suffer like some of his innocent family did. Eye for an eye. It isn't right, but it makes sense, this has happened in warfare since the dawn of time.
    From what he knows, I would also agree with his desire for justice against the elders. It is just that I refuse to accept that the elders = Konoha. I'd wager that well over 95% of all the people living in Konoha have absolutely no knowledge of anything that the elders plan/plot – with even fewer knowing about the Uchiha incident. From what I remember, have to check at some point, even Kakashi (a well respected Jounin) had no knowledge of the Uchiha plotting a coup, or the elders and Danzou ordering the massacre (if they did). There is logic to what he is doing, as long as you view his thoughts as those of a deranged person. It only makes sense considering his warped viewpoints and his lack of knowledge on what actually happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    2) Konoha's leadership, and in large part Konoha as a whole is at fault for two things.
    1) Allowing this entire massacre to happen in the first place.
    2) Allowing Sasuke to leave the village and allowing his mental state to fall to where it was.

    Number 1 obviously falls at the feet of the great, yet spineless Hiruzen, and the Elders for allowing all this to happen. They didn't attempt to arrest or even assassinate those responsible and leave the innocents, they went for total annihilation and framed Itachi. If the rest of the village knew about what really happened, the entire village would have been in chaos.
    Well, in all fairness, we still do not know the full story of what happened. It is entirely possible that Hiruzen didn't know that the orders had been given to Itachi until after the massacre (when it is too late). But I do agree that they should not have butchered all the Uchiha (as I have said before, in many other topics, I can not believe that all Uchiha were guilty, knowledgeable about, or active in the plotted coup).

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Number 2 falls on not only the leadership of Konoha, but any intelligent shinobi adult in the village. Sasuke, Naruto, and Orochimaru are examples of three children with incredible gifts and abilities that were basically left to their own devices and allowed in two cases to go rogue and leave the village. Credit Naruto for being a strong person and overcoming what Sasuke and Orochimaru could not.

    Not once did we see Sasuke receiving some kind of council for his deep rooted problems. Not once did the Hokage take the time to make sure the last Uchiha loyal to his village was good. The whole Sasuke situation could have been an easy fix, but instead of doing what needed to be done, we have Kakashi giving a half assed speach to a mentally unstable 13 year old. 13!

    This is what people don't like to grasp, that Sasuke was only 13 when he left the village. We say Sasuke shouldn't be excused for his actions without understanding that he barely knew the consequences of his actions when he left. You had Hokage's, Jounin, all sorts of people that fucked up in this regard by allowing his mental and emotional state to deteriorate and allowing someone like Orochimaru to have a physical influence on him that was only kept in check by a seal that fed on his mental and emotional strength!

    I fully grasp the concept that ninja as young as 13 in Kakashi's case are made into Jounin that can command people, take on responsibility, and know right from wrong. But as we saw with Kakashi, he wasn't ready for such a responsibility. And Sasuke, a genin, obviously was not mature enough to handle the situation he was put in.
    I agree that Sasuke (and Orochimaru (though little is known about him) and most certainly Naruto) should have been looked after better by the leadership in Konoha. Konoha have a ridiculously poor reputation for looking after the well-being of their vulnerable citizens. I am not sure that the Sasuke situation would have been an easy fix, but it certainly could have been handled better! And as I said before, Kakashi is very bad at dealing with children. However, ninja in the Naruto world grow up, and mature, incredibly quickly. So, although not in agreement with their actions (or lack of), I can understand (sort of) how they thought that Sasuke may have been able to cope well enough. Turns out they were very, very, wrong about this.
    Still though, I do not feel this blame falls at the feet of the average citizen of Konoha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    3) For all of Sasuke's wrong doing, he is a product of Konoha, a product of the ninja system. Naruto's quest for peace (which will likely off the ninja system) is to prevent the world from spawning another Sasuke. For people to place all the blame on Sasuke is hard for me to swallow. Granted, his actions now are becoming more and more inexcusable (and he does deserve to die), yet all this could have been prevented and yet it wasn't.
    People put the blame on Sasuke, because they can not fathom the idea that more than one person may have a role in shaping someone’s actions. However, these people are just as bad, perhaps even less so, than the apologists who demand that Sasuke is almost a pure product of Konoha and that Konoha bares the full responsibility for Sasuke's future actions. Although I will not excuse the actions of the higher powers in Konoha in the incident (even though I am a firm believer that there is more to it than Tobi has let on), and will not absolve them of the blame that they rightfully must bare. I will also not throw the rest of Konoha into the same corner of guilt as these few people. Nor will I excuse Sasuke for his warped plans and views, even if I accept that he is a vulnerable deranged person at the moment.
    Last edited by zimbardo; May 21, 2012 at 03:28 AM.
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @zimbardo

    I for one don't put the blame on the average citizens of Konoha (although adult ninja's with clout and intelligence such as Hiashi, Inochi, Chouza, Shikaku etc. are certainly someone responsible as ninja parents for not looking into the Sasuke situation or saying something. Then again they could have, but were told to leave it alone by someone like Danzou. We'll never know).

    Sasuke is putting the blame on the citizens, he simply wants them to suffer like his family suffered. This is where his slight insanity and childishness comes in, but IMO it is understandable that he thinks this way thanks to all that he has been through. It doesn't make him right, but people seem to think he is a normal person still. Sasuke is FAR from normal in any sense of the word.

    As for Sasuke being a product of Konoha, I firmly believe that...up until recent events. Sasuke was a happy go lucky kid essentially before his word came crashing down. Uchiha was part of Konoha, therefore their actions, the actions of the Itachi, Danzou, the Elders, and Sarturobi are all a product of Konoha. Keep in mind, the Uchiha clan ousted Madara because they all bought into peace and what Hashirama was selling. At some point in time, things went to shit and you had the Uchiha leaders plotting a coup. This coup, the reasons the Uchiha felt this way, are all a product of Konoha and it's leadership, and thus the man Sasuke became (prior to meeting Tobi mind you) is thanks to Konoha and it's leadership.

    Sasuke was initially traumatized by Itachi, an agent for Konoha's ANBU who it seems was ordered to execute his own clan.

    Konoha then gave Sasuke no help in regards to his mental and emotional health and left him to his own devices.

    Sasuke was then assaulted by a former Konoha shinobi who placed a cursed seal on him. This cursed seal was ultimately held in check by a seal, that relied on Sasuke's own emotional and mental strength.

    Sasuke is AGAIN attacked and mind raped by his brother further messing him up.

    His teacher Kakashi, failed on a massive level to do anything about all these previous events.

    Sasuke left to join a FORMER Konoha ninja.

    All of these events have one thing in common: They all have connections to Konoha and shinobi in Konoha that failed to do what was needed to do. This isn't just about Sasuke, but Konoha itself, this supposed "bright light" of the ninja world as fucked up on multiple occasions, and because of these fuck ups, you got Sasuke who left for power and went to kill his brother.

    Now lets stop there. Up until that point, Konoha was largely at fault for the whole Sasuke thing. IMO Sasuke chose to leave, but events led him to what he believed was his only option, and Konoha did shit to stop him until after the fact.

    But, when his brother finally died and Sasuke was at his lowest, he is met and twisted by Tobi. Tobi fed on Sasuke's vulnerability and essentially forged the Sasuke we have today, a mentally unstable mess fueled by hatred and revenge, unable to determine fact from fiction.

    Looking back, Sasuke in truth, was never given a fair shot, and I find it hard to listen to people berate him without looking at the totality of the circumstances. He is a scapegoat in all of this, and while his actions certainly aren't just or righteous, they are explainable and not all his fault.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    @Delbi

    I think we are pretty much arguing the same thing. Our only argument seems to be just how responsible Konoha are for Sasuke's thoughts and actions. I disagree that missing nin's that came from Konoha, such as Orochimaru and Itachi, actions on Sasuke are the responsibility of Konoha. I agree that Orochimaru and Itachi were likely heavily effected whilst in Konoha, to make them think as they did, but think that once they have left Konoha they must have gained influences from many other sources that shaped their persona (Sasuke included). For example, once Sasuke was living with Orochimaru, this must have effected his way of thinking and attitude as a whole, and I can not see how this is Konoha's fault (outside of them helping - not making - to make Orochimaru who he was). Missing nins from Konoha =/= Konoha ninjas.
    As for this bit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Keep in mind, the Uchiha clan ousted Madara because they all bought into peace and what Hashirama was selling. At some point in time, things went to shit and you had the Uchiha leaders plotting a coup. This coup, the reasons the Uchiha felt this way, are all a product of Konoha and it's leadership, and thus the man Sasuke became (prior to meeting Tobi mind you) is thanks to Konoha and it's leadership.
    I think too little is known. I am on the side that refuses to believe (until shown) that Konoha was suppressing the Uchiha as much as Tobi suggests - this is because it just isn't shown, or even suggested, in the manga (ignoring Tobi's statements). I can understand that Danzou may have been like this, but not only is he like this to every other special clan in Konoha (or anyone with abilities he sees as Konohas - rather than the person themselves), but also Danzou =/= Konoha.
    If the coup was not down to Konoha treating the Uchiha badly, then the degree of blame that Konoha must bear is dramatically reduced.
    Sasuke has received the short straw, to be sure, and many people (not just Konoha) bear responsibility for what Sasuke has become. However, he still must bear some responsibility for his actions.
    Infinite RAGE!

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Orochimaru didn't necessarily affect Sasuke - he still refused to kill even when Orochimaru told him to. The only one that altered Sasuke's personality was Tobi (not counting Itachi). It wasn't until Tobi revealed the "truth" that Sasuke became a deranged, fucked up murderer who as far as I recall still has yet to kill anyone.

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