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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

  1. #1051
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Do we read the same manga?
    Sharingan's predicting ability makes the dodge a hell of a lot easier, you can dodge with inferior speed thanks to it, even more so if the movement is easily readable.
    Again remember versus Gaara? "If I wouldn't have this eyes, I would be dead"
    I suppose that's the case if the attack is a basic jab. But typically we're dealing with much more advanced things in this manga.

    The Sharingan's basic ability to anticipate movement isn't an end-all type deal. You still have to have physical ability to follow through, as evidenced by Sasuke's fight with Rock Lee. Obviously, Sasuke was able to live against Gaara because of the Sharingan AND because he had the physical agility to do so.

    Even when fighting Killer Bee, Sasuke had a hard time because he couldn't completely follow Bee's ridiculous fighting style.

    Just saying

  2. #1052
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    I suppose that's the case if the attack is a basic jab. But typically we're dealing with much more advanced things in this manga.

    The Sharingan's basic ability to anticipate movement isn't an end-all type deal. You still have to have physical ability to follow through, as evidenced by Sasuke's fight with Rock Lee. Obviously, Sasuke was able to live against Gaara because of the Sharingan AND because he had the physical agility to do so.

    Even when fighting Killer Bee, Sasuke had a hard time because he couldn't completely follow Bee's ridiculous fighting style.

    Just saying
    No one is saying Sasuke is a worthless noob, he just isn't as good as many sees him ( good Kage level even without the Mangekyo ), at least imho.

    Also no, the Sharingan helps with every attack, no matter how simple or complicated, remember KN0 Naruto vs Sasuke? Before the third tomoe Sasuke was all but Naruto's bitch, after the third tomoe Naruto became Sasuke's bitch.
    The more simple the attack, the more easy is for the Sharingan to dodge, since it is also easier for normal eyes to follow attacks in a straight line.

    Of course you have to have the means to dodge, but we saw that with predicting abilities the difference can be great:
    I bet no one will claim that a clone of Naruto would be even with Third Raikage in speed, yet that clone in SM not only dodged that attack, but countered at the same time.
    The Sharingan is the same, yet people make a great deal about it saying Sasuke is almost as fast as A, for example, because he dodged an elbow. Or that he is comparable to Bee because he parried some attack when non-cloaked Bee would've killed him if not for Phoenix down Karin and Taka.

    I realize it seems like I hate Sasuke's guts, but really I'm only against unjustified and exagerated hype, if one day will appear Rikudou Prince or Ninjabet or zZan ( no offence guys, I'm using you as examples of notorius Sasuke fans ) saying that Naruto is the GOAT, is the better ninja alive, is the fastest one even in base and that he is the best in the world and that we should lick the pages when he appears in adoration then you'll see me reacting the same way about it

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  4. #1053
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
    I bet no one will claim that a clone of Naruto would be even with Third Raikage in speed, yet that clone in SM not only dodged that attack, but countered at the same time.
    The Sharingan is the same, yet people make a great deal about it saying Sasuke is almost as fast as A, for example, because he dodged an elbow. Or that he is comparable to Bee because he parried some attack when non-cloaked Bee would've killed him if not for Phoenix down Karin and Taka.
    The same? Ugh.

    The difference between Sage Mode chakra sensing and Sharingan predictive abilities is that Sage Mode lets you know when something will be near you, it doesn't tell you what attack is coming. Meaning you can't be surprise attacked because you'll sense the enemy attacking, but you don't know what's happening unless you're watching (just like Sharingan): you just know a chakra signature is approaching and attempting something; anything. Because the Sharingan reads the muscle-movements of the opponent, it predicts the type of attack that's coming before it's in it's throws. Before the ninja draws his fist back you know he's gonna punch you from the shifting of the body. You know where he's gonna throw their kunai based on the subtle flutter of their eye looking in the general direction of their target.

    Seriously for christ sake: look at the two instances you're comparing. Naruto knew what attack was coming before it came (because he'd seen it multiple times already) so all he needed was to know when to move and, thanks to the combination of boosted physical capabilities, and sensing abilities he had the reaction speed and prior warning to dodge. Sasuke on the other hand didn't know what Raikage was doing until he glanced at him with the Sharingan (once). At that point he knew what attack he was gonna perform and reacted accordingly, but without the same physically boosted body that Naruto had.

    THAT'S why we can say Sasuke's speed is close to Raikage's. Because he didn't have a super powered body in addition to his predictive ability. Naruto had both enhanced speed AND semi-predictive ability, and was sitting still. Sasuke and Raikage were both going full-blast at eachother and he reacted mid-clash.

    Quote Quote:
    Or that he is comparable to Bee because he parried some attack when non-cloaked Bee would've killed him if not for Phoenix down Karin and Taka.
    And he's comperable to Bee because he managed to dodge his swords (for the most part) without even using his Sharingan. The answers are there. Just look for them. Hell, you shouldn't even have to because we force-feed you guys these manga scans on a monthly basis. You should know what's canon by now.

  5. #1054
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Where did Oro praised Sasuke's intelligence?
    Bee's praise was kind of forced since, his transformation was useless, since Sasuke was dead, Suigetsu was almost there to join him, Juugo was worthless to him and Karin... Well was Karin.
    He transformed so he could escape, or to put it in better words to let him escape and give Sasuke at least a little bit of dignity in that fight
    When Sasuke took down those Oto ninjas for practice, Orochimaru commented that Sasuke was a greater genius then even he was at that age. I don't see how it was forced. It's not as if Kirabi ever landed a hit on Sasuke directly. Both of the blows Kirabi hit were when Sasuke had been caught off-guard/underestimated him. And Kirabi didn't transform to escape. He stated he came up with the idea to escape at the spur of the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    That would be true if Sasuke wouldn't have a conveniente, little set of eyes to do the work for him. He didn't figured out Deidara's jutsu by intelligence, he figured it out thanks to the hand-seal, that the Sharingan read.
    Sasuke's way of outsmarting opponents is almost the same of Naruto, he simply uses the Sharingan while Naruto uses KB to do the trick.
    Intelligence is Itachi figuring out Chibaku Tensei, and Shikamaru's all "brainy" explanations.

    Being a genius =/= being intelligent, Neji was a prodigy yet he was outwitted by Naruto, just to make an example. Even Lee is a genius in his own way ( remember Kakashi telling that when he activated the gates? ), but he is no Shikamaru.

    Why, for example, not use Chidori variatons against Kabuto?
    He can make them non-lethal, like he did with Suigetsu, and it would still damage him pretty badly.

    As for Sasuke, I doubt anything that concerns Itachi is worthless, so he was pretty slow on that one. Kishi's fault? Surely, but the Armadillo mission too was Kishi's fault
    So Sasuke using his Sharingan once to figure out Deidara's technique somehow negates everything else he did? What about the whole shuriken combo he used to bring Deidara down? Or the testing of his hypothesis about the mines? And wouldn't how he figured out the mechanics of Izanagi fall under the technique deduction that you speak of?

    What use would the Chidori variations have had on Kabuto? Last time Sasuke used Chidori on Suigetsu, it didn't even do any damage or take him down for a while. So against a person who not only has that ability, but also regeneration, doesn't make much sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Do we read the same manga?
    Sharingan's predicting ability makes the dodge a hell of a lot easier, you can dodge with inferior speed thanks to it, even more so if the movement is easily readable.
    Again remember versus Gaara? "If I wouldn't have this eyes, I would be dead"
    Dodging is made easier, but only if the user has the speed to do so. if the user lacks the speed, then even if they see what's coming, they won't be capable of moving. Lee pointed all of this out when he first fought Sasuke, that even though Sasuke could read his movements, Sasuke was still too physically slow to make use of that forewarning. So if Sasuke did in fact have inferior speed, then he would still end up being hit, even with the Sharingan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    So a young body = an old body?
    Hiruzen's weakness wasn't only his stamina, was the fact that he was slower, weaker, everything.
    It is common sense that a young body would be way better suited for activity than a way older body, Danzou could've Hashirama's cells to boost his stamina, but not only it was uses solely for Izanagi, it still didn't gave him his physical abilities lost.
    He wasn't fifty years old like the sannins, he was well beyond his seventies. Oonoki's situation is different since the guy uses rock jutsus to enhance his strenght, otherwise he would just be a tiny old man, his forte are his Jinton jutsus.

    True, Danzou's fight was pathetic since he couldn't capitalize even 8 minutes of invincibility, no one is saying that.
    But to say that Sasuke won effortlessy, or with ease, or without a bit of luck is untrue as well.
    Kishi focused on Sasuke's susano'o right now, his overall skills are all but forgotten ( I can't still comprehend why he didn't use any Chidori variations against Kabuto, hell even against that web ) in favour of Susano'o spamming, and he can't measure up to the hype anymore when he is the only one of the mains in this manga that fights with a mecha 24/7.
    His last noteable win against someone without Susano'o is the Deidara one, the Deidara that Sai and Kankuro fodderized along with Sasori
    Onoki is still running around and fighting alongside the youngsters with only minor back problems being an issue. And what about Chiyo? She moved just as good as the much younger Sakura did, in fact better when you factor in that she was controlling Sakura. Heck, Mifune's hardly young either and he showed excellent speed. Sarutobi also wasn't that slow either, given he was capable of at least keeping par with Orochimaru.

    I never said that Sasuke won effortlessly, I said that had Danzo not had a dozen lives to fall back on, the fight obviously wouldn't have lasted more then a minute. And really, Sasuke has yet to merely rely solely on his MS or Susanoo. In nearly all his recent battles, he has used a mix of MS and his standard techniques, and that simply due to the type of opponents he's facing. Isn't like Itachi too relied just as heavily on his MS in recent battles either.

  6. #1055
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Naa, I hope he did the hanky panky with some hot chick.
    Imagine how sad it would be to create your own sons
    WHOA! You're too young to be thinking about hanky panky of any kind.



    Quote Quote:
    Maybe is some sort of jerkish propechy, he did foretold Naruto being his successor.
    Well for Bijuus I doubt, since, apart from Kyuubi, it seems that normal people can become Jinchuuriki, they only have to have a respectable chakra pool
    And no darkness in their heart.



    Quote Quote:
    Everyone can be put in a genjutsu, being immune means you can break them.
    Kabuto's way is being truly immune, and I believe a Byakugan user would too, since, you know, he could see through his eyelids closed.
    A seemed pretty much immune since he shrugged off Sasuke's, until Madara took that notion and threw it out of the window
    Not necessarily. I think being immune means not being put in genjutsu at all. If you're immune to chicken pox, you won't get it at all. If you're immune to genjutsu ,you won't be put in one at all. By that definition, majority of the shinobi is immune to genjutsu, Naruto included (trained to break out of genjutsu).

    When did A shrug off Sasuke's genjutsu? I don't remember Sasuke usin genjutsu on A, just A saying "your Sharingan is no match for me!" It's not shocking that Sasuke was unable to use genjutsu on A, if he did use it, as genjutsu isn't his area of expertise. Minus the Mangekyo, Sasuke's around average.



    Quote Quote:
    Well they did talk for a while, hell say "Kakashi has a kunai I gave him, rob him of it!"
    What if Kakashi doesn't have the kunai? D:



    Quote Quote:
    That was after, see here ( I know mangareader is off for the states, but can you see mangahere? ).

    Depends on Kishi, it seems to be at least 2-3 meters, but he did launched a blast that traveled the Four Tail's neck when he got rid of the spike Tobi implanted.
    One of the reasons why SM seems a pretty good match to Susano'o, it can ( theorically ) bypass that defence with taijutsu
    I can, ma'am, I can.

    I remember seeing that and being all " epic!" Still is.

    Theoretically. Does it use the natural energy or natural chakra? I think the energy could do the job, but no idea what the reach is. Though, I assume it could be good enough since he was able to make FRS bigger from a distance.




    Quote Quote:
    Its how the manga is, sadly.
    At least is better than Bleach, where Ichigo had more power swings than a woman has mood swings when she PMS
    Dunno, it gets Naruto and Sasuke disrespected.




    Quote Quote:
    He still had a Sharingan, and we know how the Sharingan, expecially a 3-tomoe Sharingan, can read and anticipate attacks.
    Sharingan doesn't allow the users to make the best judgment, they still have to decide what to do. Plus, there's no way Sasuke can dodge or block that many swords.



    Quote Quote:
    Well I would normally agree with you, but we saw Oonoki that, according to Deidara, was even faster than his prime.

    It depends, if the character is alive and well I agree with you, if the character is dead and making useless flashbacks is the only way, then better let him stay dead and let him live of hype.
    An example of disproven hype is the famous "Jiraiya > Itachi & Kisame" one, realistically no one believes that Itachi and Kisame couldn't take down Jiraiya
    According to Deidara. Deidara probably hasn't seen Oonoki at his top speed for all we know. Plus, Oonoki and Hiruzen had different way of living, Hiru wanted peace while Oonoki wanted power.

    Wut? You never saw any of Jiraiya fans debating? Most Jiraiya fans are like Minato fans, usually deluded and believe neither Itachi nor Kisame OR Itachi and Kisame can't beat them. Plus, we have seen the statements be disproven.
    Vote for koen for favorite senpai so koen is active again!

  7. #1056
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
    One of the reasons why SM seems a pretty good match to Susano'o, it can ( theorically ) bypass that defence with taijutsu
    I don't get this. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's intangible. If it was, then it wouldn't have snapped Hungry Ghost's neck when it hit him. If wind can't go through Susanoo without breaking through with brute force, I don't see why Kawazu Kumite'd do any better.

    Unless we're talking full on melee (punches, kickes, grappling). Inwhich case, I doubt it. He can knock them around, but he likely can't outright destroy it completely. Itachi and Sasuke's Susanoo were strong enough to grab hold of gaint Sage Mode snakes and rip them apart. Granted that's not the same strength as Naruto, but it's proof of how strong it is. Not to mention the only Susanoo ever plowed through with brute strength was an incomplete one.

  8. #1057
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Dodging is made easier, but only if the user has the speed to do so. if the user lacks the speed, then even if they see what's coming, they won't be capable of moving. Lee pointed all of this out when he first fought Sasuke, that even though Sasuke could read his movements, Sasuke was still too physically slow to make use of that forewarning. So if Sasuke did in fact have inferior speed, then he would still end up being hit, even with the Sharingan.

    Onoki is still running around and fighting alongside the youngsters with only minor back problems being an issue. And what about Chiyo? She moved just as good as the much younger Sakura did, in fact better when you factor in that she was controlling Sakura. Heck, Mifune's hardly young either and he showed excellent speed. Sarutobi also wasn't that slow either, given he was capable of at least keeping par with Orochimaru.

    I never said that Sasuke won effortlessly, I said that had Danzo not had a dozen lives to fall back on, the fight obviously wouldn't have lasted more then a minute. And really, Sasuke has yet to merely rely solely on his MS or Susanoo. In nearly all his recent battles, he has used a mix of MS and his standard techniques, and that simply due to the type of opponents he's facing. Isn't like Itachi too relied just as heavily on his MS in recent battles either.
    That's not his point, please start reading his argument, it's really annoying to see users dodge it over and over. If you can predict movement with the Sharingan, than you can evade it by a millimeter, saving time, saving unnecessary movements, making you look faster. Never did Uchiha_Blood claim that the person doesn't need the necessary speed to react to the opponents motions.

    Oonoki flies, he doesn't need to use his muscles for that, as it's just a jutsu... it's not like Hiruzen was slow, just that his high age took it's toll after so many wars, putting him long past his prime. Also Mifune not being a shinobi has a bigger need to be physically fit than others, also he's not as old as Sarutobi was. Chiyo is a puppeteer and healer, imagining that she has some advantage because of that didn't come to your mind too?

    In Itachi's last two fights he was either knowing that he would die or immortal. There was no need to care about anything but spamming the most powerful jutu's available. Who cares about a mix, if in the end, he resorts to going chakra-mecha to spam flying amaterarus, 3m arrows and keep being shielded all the time?
    Twitter - Firm but Fair

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  10. #1058
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The same? Ugh.

    The difference between Sage Mode chakra sensing and Sharingan predictive abilities is that Sage Mode lets you know when something will be near you, it doesn't tell you what attack is coming. Meaning you can't be surprise attacked because you'll sense the enemy attacking, but you don't know what's happening unless you're watching (just like Sharingan): you just know a chakra signature is approaching and attempting something; anything. Because the Sharingan reads the muscle-movements of the opponent, it predicts the type of attack that's coming before it's in it's throws. Before the ninja draws his fist back you know he's gonna punch you from the shifting of the body. You know where he's gonna throw their kunai based on the subtle flutter of their eye looking in the general direction of their target.

    Seriously for christ sake: look at the two instances you're comparing. Naruto knew what attack was coming before it came (because he'd seen it multiple times already) so all he needed was to know when to move and, thanks to the combination of boosted physical capabilities, and sensing abilities he had the reaction speed and prior warning to dodge. Sasuke on the other hand didn't know what Raikage was doing until he glanced at him with the Sharingan (once). At that point he knew what attack he was gonna perform and reacted accordingly, but without the same physically boosted body that Naruto had.

    THAT'S why we can say Sasuke's speed is close to Raikage's. Because he didn't have a super powered body in addition to his predictive ability. Naruto had both enhanced speed AND semi-predictive ability, and was sitting still. Sasuke and Raikage were both going full-blast at eachother and he reacted mid-clash.
    I believe you have to look at the two instances that I'm comparing, and then try to drew objective conclusions:
    Schabrak said pretty much what I meant in general

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    That's not his point, please start reading his argument, it's really annoying to see users dodge it over and over. If you can predict movement with the Sharingan, than you can evade it by a millimeter, saving time, saving unnecessary movements, making you look faster. Never did Uchiha_Blood claim that the person doesn't need the necessary speed to react to the opponents motions.
    And I'll further elaborate on Sasuke's instance, since all he did was lower his head by 20 cm and dodge an attack by centimeters.
    That isn't speed, that is reaction time enhanced by the Sharingan, Sasuke lowered his head and dodged.
    It isn't a show of overwhelming speed, it wasn't a show of comparable speed either, just like for Naruto, that sensed the attack before it came, dodged accordingly and reacted.
    Naruto totally evading Raikage is a form of speed, just like Sasuke blitzing Naruto back at Oro's lair.
    Those are shows of speed

    Quote Quote:
    And he's comperable to Bee because he managed to dodge his swords (for the most part) without even using his Sharingan. The answers are there. Just look for them. Hell, you shouldn't even have to because we force-feed you guys these manga scans on a monthly basis. You should know what's canon by now.
    What, 3 or 4 panels that Kishi drew not to end the fight in one-panel, and not only Sasuke went down twice, Bee wasn't taking this seriously either, as he said himself.
    You guys need to stop nitpicking every single panel, completely disgregarding logic, to try to prove your point, I already brought the Lee vs Sasuke example, Sasuke successfully dodged Lee's initial kick without the Sharingan and went in position to parry accordingly, does that made him comparable to Lee in speed? No.
    Kurenai was able to escape Itachi's genjutsu, dodge a kunai swipe and parry a kick, does that make her Itachi's equal in taijutsu and speed? No.
    Sai blindsided Kabuto before they went to look for Sasuke, does that make him Kabuto's equal? No.
    A tired and wounded Naruto didn't got killed by Orochimaru back in the leir when he looked for Sasuke, does that make him a match for Orochimaru? No.
    Konohamaru was able to hit Hell Realm with a Rasengan, does that make him Kage ( hell even Jounin ) level? No.
    Yet with that logic, if I were an hardcore fan of those characters I could say that they are, because they dodged, parried or reacted to those attacks. Every fight, every occasion is situational, you can't base a whole argument nitpicking 3 or 4 panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    When Sasuke took down those Oto ninjas for practice, Orochimaru commented that Sasuke was a greater genius then even he was at that age. I don't see how it was forced. It's not as if Kirabi ever landed a hit on Sasuke directly. Both of the blows Kirabi hit were when Sasuke had been caught off-guard/underestimated him. And Kirabi didn't transform to escape. He stated he came up with the idea to escape at the spur of the moment.
    Please, do explain a single, logic reason for Bee to transform then.
    He was fine, Sasuke and Suigetsu were down, Juugo was wounded and Karin was Karin. He could've murdered all 4 of them with incredible ease

    Quote Quote:
    So Sasuke using his Sharingan once to figure out Deidara's technique somehow negates everything else he did? What about the whole shuriken combo he used to bring Deidara down? Or the testing of his hypothesis about the mines? And wouldn't how he figured out the mechanics of Izanagi fall under the technique deduction that you speak of?
    Fact is it isn't an incredible show of intelligence, and all the Deidara situation was corroborated by two facts:
    -Lightning > Earth
    -Sharingan can see the color of chakra

    And the shuriken combo isn't intelligence, is skill.

    And he figured out Izanagi since Danzou fell for the oldest trick in the book ( a 70 years old war-hawk that fought in wars falling for this trick? Really ? )

    Quote Quote:
    What use would the Chidori variations have had on Kabuto? Last time Sasuke used Chidori on Suigetsu, it didn't even do any damage or take him down for a while. So against a person who not only has that ability, but also regeneration, doesn't make much sense.
    Better a conservative way to wound him so Itachi could attack from a blindspot or the moment Kabuto would be shocked, or be a sitting duck doing nothing?
    Better use a Chidori sword to break Kidomaru's web, or Amaterasu?
    Unless that web is so tough it can withstand a Chidori, which is unlikely since, well, 13 year old Neji could break it with tiny threads of chakra

    Quote Quote:
    Dodging is made easier, but only if the user has the speed to do so. if the user lacks the speed, then even if they see what's coming, they won't be capable of moving. Lee pointed all of this out when he first fought Sasuke, that even though Sasuke could read his movements, Sasuke was still too physically slow to make use of that forewarning. So if Sasuke did in fact have inferior speed, then he would still end up being hit, even with the Sharingan.
    Please do reread the part of Schabrak post I quoted to ninjabot

    Quote Quote:
    Onoki is still running around and fighting alongside the youngsters with only minor back problems being an issue. And what about Chiyo? She moved just as good as the much younger Sakura did, in fact better when you factor in that she was controlling Sakura. Heck, Mifune's hardly young either and he showed excellent speed. Sarutobi also wasn't that slow either, given he was capable of at least keeping par with Orochimaru.

    I never said that Sasuke won effortlessly, I said that had Danzo not had a dozen lives to fall back on, the fight obviously wouldn't have lasted more then a minute. And really, Sasuke has yet to merely rely solely on his MS or Susanoo. In nearly all his recent battles, he has used a mix of MS and his standard techniques, and that simply due to the type of opponents he's facing. Isn't like Itachi too relied just as heavily on his MS in recent battles either.
    Oonoki flies, flying is a jutsu, a jutsu that reduces your weight and incredibly increases your speed.
    Its no taijutsu, neither is a physical ability.
    Chiyo fought that good only because she knew perfectly Sasori's attack, thus she could dodge, Sakura too could dodge because she anticipated Sasori's fingertips movements.

    That Danzou wasn't mr Perfect either is clear, just like the fact that Itachi became a MS spamming machine.
    Never said the countrary regarding both instances, hell I did rage upon Itachi's situation since in the Kabuto fight he forsaken all his skills and went MS spamming only with a hax jutsu as a plus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I don't get this. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's intangible. If it was, then it wouldn't have snapped Hungry Ghost's neck when it hit him. If wind can't go through Susanoo without breaking through with brute force, I don't see why Kawazu Kumite'd do any better.

    Unless we're talking full on melee (punches, kickes, grappling). Inwhich case, I doubt it. He can knock them around, but he likely can't outright destroy it completely. Itachi and Sasuke's Susanoo were strong enough to grab hold of gaint Sage Mode snakes and rip them apart. Granted that's not the same strength as Naruto, but it's proof of how strong it is. Not to mention the only Susanoo ever plowed through with brute strength was an incomplete one.
    I was talking about the nature force that can travel through chakra as solid as a Bijuu.
    Remember Sage Naruto using Frog Fu to remove the spike in Son's throat?
    That ( and I did say theorically ).

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    WHOA! You're too young to be thinking about hanky panky of any kind.


    Quote Quote:
    And no darkness in their heart.
    Actually is to accept that darkness, me thinks.
    Naruto didn't eradicate Dark Naruto ( btw, it was totally ripped off from Persona series ), he accepted him.
    And we saw Jinchuurikis like Gaara and Yugito being able to go full-bijuu despite not being perfect Jinchuurikis

    Quote Quote:
    Not necessarily. I think being immune means not being put in genjutsu at all. If you're immune to chicken pox, you won't get it at all. If you're immune to genjutsu ,you won't be put in one at all. By that definition, majority of the shinobi is immune to genjutsu, Naruto included (trained to break out of genjutsu).
    I believe the issue is that many genjutsu can't be broken, example a Sharingan one.
    Being immune means that, theorically, you can break a genjutsu whenever.

    Quote Quote:
    When did A shrug off Sasuke's genjutsu? I don't remember Sasuke usin genjutsu on A, just A saying "your Sharingan is no match for me!" It's not shocking that Sasuke was unable to use genjutsu on A, if he did use it, as genjutsu isn't his area of expertise. Minus the Mangekyo, Sasuke's around average.
    That istance, he was trying to genjutsu Raikage ( do note his hand position, he was gathering/molding chakra ) .
    If you notice he later one-shots Shi with a genjutsu on his own.
    Unless he tried to kill Raikage with a stare

    Quote Quote:
    What if Kakashi doesn't have the kunai? D:
    A good punch in the balls since he lost an invaluable memento


    Quote Quote:
    I can, ma'am, I can.

    I remember seeing that and being all " epic!" Still is.

    Theoretically. Does it use the natural energy or natural chakra? I think the energy could do the job, but no idea what the reach is. Though, I assume it could be good enough since he was able to make FRS bigger from a distance.
    Yes, I was talking about how nature energy traveled through objects, enhancing Naruto's reach.
    Same reason why imho a Juuken user could be able to theorically wound someone inside Susano'o, problem being if they can survive until then or a giant Susano'o punch

    Quote Quote:
    Dunno, it gets Naruto and Sasuke disrespected.
    Too true

    Quote Quote:
    Sharingan doesn't allow the users to make the best judgment, they still have to decide what to do. Plus, there's no way Sasuke can dodge or block that many swords.
    True, but Sharingan's predicting ability are pretty hax, if you are hit despite them it proves that you are really behind your opponent imho.
    Always remember KN0 Naruto vs Sasuke, how it changed before and after the three tomoe

    Quote Quote:
    According to Deidara. Deidara probably hasn't seen Oonoki at his top speed for all we know. Plus, Oonoki and Hiruzen had different way of living, Hiru wanted peace while Oonoki wanted power.

    Wut? You never saw any of Jiraiya fans debating? Most Jiraiya fans are like Minato fans, usually deluded and believe neither Itachi nor Kisame OR Itachi and Kisame can't beat them. Plus, we have seen the statements be disproven.
    Well Deidara was pretty young when he was scouted, so he could've seen an Oonoki younger.
    Oro did say that if Hiruzen was even 5 years younger he would've died.

    Every fanbase has such fans, I talk about competent readers.
    Of course everyone is biased on his own ways, I can't be objective when talking about Chouji, for example.
    Or talking about the Nagato that was converted by a fucking book
    Last edited by Uchiha_Blood; August 10, 2012 at 04:25 AM.

  11. #1059
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
    And I'll further elaborate on Sasuke's instance, since all he did was lower his head by 20 cm and dodge an attack by centimeters.
    Wrong. Both ninja were running at eachother when he dodged, meaning he would've had an even harder time of dodging thanks to momentum and the fact that his opponent was moving faster than he. Unlike Naruto, who was stationary and prepared to make a last-ditch movement, Sasuke had less time to react. Not to mention from the get-go Sasuke was managing to get on Raikage's blindside with his sword attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak
    That's not his point, please start reading his argument, it's really annoying to see users dodge it over and over. If you can predict movement with the Sharingan, than you can evade it by a millimeter, saving time, saving unnecessary movements, making you look faster. Never did Uchiha_Blood claim that the person doesn't need the necessary speed to react to the opponents motions.
    You're the one not comprehending our arguments. We never said that he said you don't need the necessary speed if you have a Sharingan. We're taking issue with the fact that he's lowering the Sharingan's predictive abilities aswell as Sasuke's physical speed to make it seem like Naruto's feat against Sandaime Raikage was the same as what Sasuke did to Yondaime Raikage. It's not.

    Quote Quote:
    That isn't speed, that is reaction time enhanced by the Sharingan, Sasuke lowered his head and dodged.
    It isn't a show of overwhelming speed, it wasn't a show of comparable speed either, just like for Naruto, that sensed the attack before it came, dodged accordingly and reacted.
    Naruto totally evading Raikage is a form of speed, just like Sasuke blitzing Naruto back at Oro's lair.
    Those are shows of speed
    It's a form of speed, it's just an inferior showing compared to what Sasuke did.


    Quote Quote:
    I was talking about the nature force that can travel through chakra as solid as a Bijuu.
    Remember Sage Naruto using Frog Fu to remove the spike in Son's throat?
    That ( and I did say theorically ).
    His natural energy didn't travel through a Bijuu. He had a clone hit the spike with his bare hand while in Sage Mode... lmao. See, this is what the arguments come from: seeing one thing and then rewording it in a way that makes it sound like something completely different happened.

    Quote Quote:
    What, 3 or 4 panels that Kishi drew not to end the fight in one-panel, and not only Sasuke went down twice, Bee wasn't taking this seriously either, as he said himself.
    LOL, and this too. Downplaying exact canon instances of impressive feats when there's no argument against it. Every single argument in Bee's favor however is crushed under more canon facts in Sasuke's favor:

    Bee holding back because he's toying with them is crushed by the fact that Sasuke's holding back inorder to avoid killing him.
    Bee not using his chakra shroud and still succeeding is crushed by the fact that Sasuke was wounded from his battle with Itachi and wasn't using his Sharingan.



    Quote Quote:
    You guys need to stop nitpicking every single panel, completely disgregarding logic, to try to prove your point, I already brought the Lee vs Sasuke example, Sasuke successfully dodged Lee's initial kick without the Sharingan and went in position to parry accordingly, does that made him comparable to Lee in speed? No.
    Different situation all together. If Sasuke had got speed blitzed as severely as he did against Lee while fighting Raikage you'd have some semblance of a point. No such thing here. Not to mention Sasuke was aware of Raikage's speed by the elbow dodging point.

    Quote Quote:
    Kurenai was able to escape Itachi's genjutsu, dodge a kunai swipe and parry a kick, does that make her Itachi's equal in taijutsu and speed? No.
    Do us a favor and quote the exact instance anyone, anywhere said that Sasuke was equal to Raikage in speed. Yeah.

    Quote Quote:
    Sai blindsided Kabuto before they went to look for Sasuke, does that make him Kabuto's equal? No.
    ...you're posting multiple sentences in rapid succession to delude others into thinking there's a point in here some where, right?

    Quote Quote:
    A tired and wounded Naruto didn't got killed by Orochimaru back in the leir when he looked for Sasuke, does that make him a match for Orochimaru? No.
    Yeah. There's so many different factors in all of these instances that none of them at all have anything to do with the Sasuke vs. Raikage situation.

    Quote Quote:
    Konohamaru was able to hit Hell Realm with a Rasengan, does that make him Kage ( hell even Jounin ) level? No.

    Yet with that logic, if I were an hardcore fan of those characters I could say that they are, because they dodged, parried or reacted to those attacks. Every fight, every occasion is situational, you can't base a whole argument nitpicking 3 or 4 panels
    Nitpicking is when you take things that are inconsequential and bring them up to form an argument. ALL of the instances we bring up ARE consequential because the combined elements make for different outcomes, and they are in addition to EVERY OTHER BIT OF EVIDENCE you disregard. No amount of selective reading is gonna let you escape them. Call it nitpicking if you want, it doesn't change the fact that they are indeed, facts. You either refute them, or you give up.

  12. #1060
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    You're the one not comprehending our arguments.
    Are you really saying that what I wrote is wrong? That would be denial of reality.
    Twitter - Firm but Fair

  13. #1061
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    I'm not about to look up the entire scan of what Itachi says reality is. But basically, he was saying reality is what you make of it. However you percieve the world is your own personal reality.

    So if your reality is made up of misinterpretations and blatant lies then sure. I deny your reality. I rebuke it.

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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Wrong. Both ninja were running at eachother when he dodged, meaning he would've had an even harder time of dodging thanks to momentum and the fact that his opponent was moving faster than he. Unlike Naruto, who was stationary and prepared to make a last-ditch movement, Sasuke had less time to react. Not to mention from the get-go Sasuke was managing to get on Raikage's blindside with his sword attacks.
    Sasuke vs Raikage
    Naruto vs Raikage

    Seems a pretty similar situation to me

    Quote Quote:
    It's a form of speed, it's just an inferior showing compared to what Sasuke did.
    No its not, to narrowly dodge an attack by lowering your head isn't a form of speed, is a form of pure enhanced reflexes.
    This is a form of speed, going at a comparable speed.

    Quote Quote:
    His natural energy didn't travel through a Bijuu. He had a clone hit the spike with his bare hand while in Sage Mode... lmao. See, this is what the arguments come from: seeing one thing and then rewording it in a way that makes it sound like something completely different happened.
    And pray tell me what is this force that traveled towards the spike?

    Quote Quote:
    LOL, and this too. Downplaying exact canon instances of impressive feats when there's no argument against it. Every single argument in Bee's favor however is crushed under more canon facts in Sasuke's favor:
    Such as?

    Quote Quote:
    Bee holding back because he's toying with them is crushed by the fact that Sasuke's holding back inorder to avoid killing him.
    Bee not using his chakra shroud and still succeeding is crushed by the fact that Sasuke was wounded from his battle with Itachi and wasn't using his Sharingan.
    Actually when he was impaled by all the swords he had his Sharingan on, and we don't know how Itachi's wounds affected him.
    Doesn't change the fact that he couldn't follow the swords, wounds or not wounds.

    Quote Quote:
    Do us a favor and quote the exact instance anyone, anywhere said that Sasuke was equal to Raikage in speed. Yeah.
    I made an absurd example to show you just how absurd is claiming that Sasuke is comparable in speed to A simply because he dodged one attack.

    Quote Quote:
    Nitpicking is when you take things that are inconsequential and bring them up to form an argument. ALL of the instances we bring up ARE consequential because the combined elements make for different outcomes, and they are in addition to EVERY OTHER BIT OF EVIDENCE you disregard. No amount of selective reading is gonna let you escape them. Call it nitpicking if you want, it doesn't change the fact that they are indeed, facts. You either refute them, or you give up.
    So, by your logic that every panel is a fact, the facts mentioned above too are valid, right?
    Facts are facts when they are backed up by solid proofs, Sasuke lowering his head isn't a valid proof that he is comparable to Raikage in speed, Sasuke parrying blows for what, 3 or 4 panels doesn't make him comparable to Bee when the end result was him needing a phoenix down twice when he engaged him in close combat, the end result is that Sasuke had to rely on jutsus such as Susano'o and Amaterasu to survive, because he, by himself, wasn't good enough.

    This is a fact, and its not something any Sasuke fan should fell bad for, because in the end he still emerged with a win and a tie against Kage level opponents.
    Doesn't change the fact that he is in no way, shape or form comparable to the ones mentioned above in speed, which is saying much because they are among the fastest guys in the Narutoverse.

  15. #1063
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
    No one is saying Sasuke is a worthless noob, he just isn't as good as many sees him ( good Kage level even without the Mangekyo ), at least imho.
    He's not, but no other sharingan/rinnengan wielder is either.
    Quote Quote:
    I realize it seems like I hate Sasuke's guts, but really I'm only against unjustified and exagerated hype,
    Good to know what you think about our post.
    Quote Quote:
    if one day will appear Rikudou Prince or Ninjabet or zZan ( no offence guys, I'm using you as examples of notorius Sasuke fans ) saying that Naruto is the GOAT, is the better ninja alive, is the fastest one even in base and that he is the best in the world and that we should lick the pages when he appears in adoration then you'll see me reacting the same way about it
    And that's what we are saying? respect right out the door.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    He's not, but no other sharingan/rinnengan wielder is either.
    No one said otherwise, many, me included, said that Itachi and Madara are, skill-wise, better than Sasuke.
    At least I don't remember saying that Itachi or Madara could beat any of the actual kages bar Tsunade

    Quote Quote:
    Good to know what you think about our post.
    Saying that Sasuke is comparable to A in speed, for example, is unjustified and exagerated hype, imho.
    Same as saying that Sasuke has speed even to Yondaime, or that he is one of the most intelligent guys in the manga, and those are only the most recent examples I witnessed in this days.
    I still don't understand this need to believe Sasuke is the best at everything, Kishi didn't make him that way, never had and never will, Sasuke's best thing, imho, is that he is a "flawed" genius, unlike Sues like Itachi or one-dimensional characters like Yondaime.
    But maybe its me that likes to see him that way

    Quote Quote:
    And that's what we are saying? respect right out the door.
    I was being overly dramatic on purpose, you know, being ironic it was without malice

  17. #1065
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    That's not his point, please start reading his argument, it's really annoying to see users dodge it over and over. If you can predict movement with the Sharingan, than you can evade it by a millimeter, saving time, saving unnecessary movements, making you look faster. Never did Uchiha_Blood claim that the person doesn't need the necessary speed to react to the opponents motions.

    Oonoki flies, he doesn't need to use his muscles for that, as it's just a jutsu... it's not like Hiruzen was slow, just that his high age took it's toll after so many wars, putting him long past his prime. Also Mifune not being a shinobi has a bigger need to be physically fit than others, also he's not as old as Sarutobi was. Chiyo is a puppeteer and healer, imagining that she has some advantage because of that didn't come to your mind too?

    In Itachi's last two fights he was either knowing that he would die or immortal. There was no need to care about anything but spamming the most powerful jutu's available. Who cares about a mix, if in the end, he resorts to going chakra-mecha to spam flying amaterarus, 3m arrows and keep being shielded all the time?
    First off, the entire point of the Lee example is to show that the ability to predict movement doesn't grant any sort of major advantage to dodging. Sasuke, despite reading enough of Lee's movements to later copy them for his own taijutsu and speed enhancement, couldn't lift a finger to block or evade Lee's attack. So the argument that the Sharingan makes "dodging with inferior speed easier" is obviously wrong, otherwise Sasuke would have been capable of dodging Lee. In order to move as fast as the attack he's dodging, Sasuke would need comparable speed to move fast enough.

    Secondly, those are excuses. The point remains that they were all elderly like Danzo and had no problems fighting younger ninjas, so what exactly is wrong with Danzo doing so when he had a stamina boost via Hashirama's cells?

    And thirdly, what does that mean? If anything, wouldn't Itachi being immortal mean he shouldn't have to protect himself? Given the caliber of opponent that he was facing, why exactly shouldn't Sasuke make use of a technique that allows him to defend when he needs it? Again, it's not as if he activates Susanoo at the beginning of battle and continues onward with just that like Madara has done. He mainly activates it when he needs to defend, with a few times used when he wants to attack swiftly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Please, do explain a single, logic reason for Bee to transform then.
    He was fine, Sasuke and Suigetsu were down, Juugo was wounded and Karin was Karin. He could've murdered all 4 of them with incredible ease
    Perhaps it because, as I mentioned, Kirabi never landed a blow to Sasuke due to mere prowess. Both of the blows he landed was due more to Sasuke's error then his superiority. And you do recall, that at the point he began to transform, only Sasuke was down and even then he was being healed at that moment. If he could only rely on Sasuke's mistakes to do any damage, then odds were that eventually Sasuke would have succeed the longer the fight went on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Fact is it isn't an incredible show of intelligence, and all the Deidara situation was corroborated by two facts:
    -Lightning > Earth
    -Sharingan can see the color of chakra

    And the shuriken combo isn't intelligence, is skill.

    And he figured out Izanagi since Danzou fell for the oldest trick in the book ( a 70 years old war-hawk that fought in wars falling for this trick? Really ? )
    How exactly is that any less a show of intelligences then figuring out Hidan needs to stand in the circle he purposely took the time to draw out and made mention towards it or guessing that a bunch of powerful techniques could break Chibaku Tensei? And what? He had already figured out Izanagi's mechanics and began planning against them before he tricked Danzo into confirming it. Tobi's explanation shows that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Better a conservative way to wound him so Itachi could attack from a blindspot or the moment Kabuto would be shocked, or be a sitting duck doing nothing?
    Better use a Chidori sword to break Kidomaru's web, or Amaterasu?
    Unless that web is so tough it can withstand a Chidori, which is unlikely since, well, 13 year old Neji could break it with tiny threads of chakra
    Except he knew that not only could Kabuto regenerate, but he would just liquify with the damage and thus not be in any sort of position to be blindsided. And his Enton Blade burnt away more webbing at once then his Chidori Blade would have, in addition to continuously burning more away afterward and creating a defensive wall. There was clearly more benefits to using Enton then Chidori, and no disadvantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Please do reread the part of Schabrak post I quoted to ninjabot
    As I explained above, the entire Lee example was about how he still needed to be able to move fast enough, even with the forewarning. Sasuke seeing things ahead of time doesn't mean he can evade it if too slow. The advantage of prediction is minor, not major. Thus Sasuke's speed wouldn't be that far off from his opponents. In addition to that, we have to other examples, via Itachi and Kirabi, showing Sasuke moving comparably with fast ninjas without the advantage of prediction. Kirabi was fast enough to get between his brother and Naruto without either being able to react, without his cloak, so clearly Sasuke being able to manage against him without the Sharingan shows he's wasn't that slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Oonoki flies, flying is a jutsu, a jutsu that reduces your weight and incredibly increases your speed.
    Its no taijutsu, neither is a physical ability.
    Chiyo fought that good only because she knew perfectly Sasori's attack, thus she could dodge, Sakura too could dodge because she anticipated Sasori's fingertips movements.

    That Danzou wasn't mr Perfect either is clear, just like the fact that Itachi became a MS spamming machine.
    Never said the countrary regarding both instances, hell I did rage upon Itachi's situation since in the Kabuto fight he forsaken all his skills and went MS spamming only with a hax jutsu as a plus.
    How does any of that changes the original argument? Onoki and Chiyo are still keeping up with younger ninjas, and even Sarutobi went toe to toe with Orochimaru. When exactly has an elderly ninja hold a disadvantage to a younger ninja outside stamina?

    Using a critical technique when it's needed isn't exactly spamming. Apart from one or two time, the only times Sasuke has used his MS techniques were when they were actually necessary.

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