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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
The Sharingan's basic ability to anticipate movement isn't an end-all type deal. You still have to have physical ability to follow through, as evidenced by Sasuke's fight with Rock Lee. Obviously, Sasuke was able to live against Gaara because of the Sharingan AND because he had the physical agility to do so.
Even when fighting Killer Bee, Sasuke had a hard time because he couldn't completely follow Bee's ridiculous fighting style.
Also no, the Sharingan helps with every attack, no matter how simple or complicated, remember KN0 Naruto vs Sasuke? Before the third tomoe Sasuke was all but Naruto's bitch, after the third tomoe Naruto became Sasuke's bitch.
The more simple the attack, the more easy is for the Sharingan to dodge, since it is also easier for normal eyes to follow attacks in a straight line.
Of course you have to have the means to dodge, but we saw that with predicting abilities the difference can be great:
I bet no one will claim that a clone of Naruto would be even with Third Raikage in speed, yet that clone in SM not only dodged that attack, but countered at the same time.
The Sharingan is the same, yet people make a great deal about it saying Sasuke is almost as fast as A, for example, because he dodged an elbow. Or that he is comparable to Bee because he parried some attack when non-cloaked Bee would've killed him if not for Phoenix down Karin and Taka.
I realize it seems like I hate Sasuke's guts, but really I'm only against unjustified and exagerated hype, if one day will appear Rikudou Prince or Ninjabet or zZan ( no offence guys, I'm using you as examples of notorius Sasuke fans ) saying that Naruto is the GOAT, is the better ninja alive, is the fastest one even in base and that he is the best in the world and that we should lick the pages when he appears in adoration then you'll see me reacting the same way about it
The same? Ugh.Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
The difference between Sage Mode chakra sensing and Sharingan predictive abilities is that Sage Mode lets you know when something will be near you, it doesn't tell you what attack is coming. Meaning you can't be surprise attacked because you'll sense the enemy attacking, but you don't know what's happening unless you're watching (just like Sharingan): you just know a chakra signature is approaching and attempting something; anything. Because the Sharingan reads the muscle-movements of the opponent, it predicts the type of attack that's coming before it's in it's throws. Before the ninja draws his fist back you know he's gonna punch you from the shifting of the body. You know where he's gonna throw their kunai based on the subtle flutter of their eye looking in the general direction of their target.
Seriously for christ sake: look at the two instances you're comparing. Naruto knew what attack was coming before it came (because he'd seen it multiple times already) so all he needed was to know when to move and, thanks to the combination of boosted physical capabilities, and sensing abilities he had the reaction speed and prior warning to dodge. Sasuke on the other hand didn't know what Raikage was doing until he glanced at him with the Sharingan (once). At that point he knew what attack he was gonna perform and reacted accordingly, but without the same physically boosted body that Naruto had.
THAT'S why we can say Sasuke's speed is close to Raikage's. Because he didn't have a super powered body in addition to his predictive ability. Naruto had both enhanced speed AND semi-predictive ability, and was sitting still. Sasuke and Raikage were both going full-blast at eachother and he reacted mid-clash.
And he's comperable to Bee because he managed to dodge his swords (for the most part) without even using his Sharingan. The answers are there. Just look for them. Hell, you shouldn't even have to because we force-feed you guys these manga scans on a monthly basis. You should know what's canon by now.Quote:
What use would the Chidori variations have had on Kabuto? Last time Sasuke used Chidori on Suigetsu, it didn't even do any damage or take him down for a while. So against a person who not only has that ability, but also regeneration, doesn't make much sense.
Lee pointed all of this out when he first fought Sasuke, that even though Sasuke could read his movements, Sasuke was still too physically slow to make use of that forewarning. So if Sasuke did in fact have inferior speed, then he would still end up being hit, even with the Sharingan.
I never said that Sasuke won effortlessly, I said that had Danzo not had a dozen lives to fall back on, the fight obviously wouldn't have lasted more then a minute. And really, Sasuke has yet to merely rely solely on his MS or Susanoo. In nearly all his recent battles, he has used a mix of MS and his standard techniques, and that simply due to the type of opponents he's facing. Isn't like Itachi too relied just as heavily on his MS in recent battles either.
And no darkness in their heart.Quote:
Not necessarily. I think being immune means not being put in genjutsu at all. If you're immune to chicken pox, you won't get it at all. If you're immune to genjutsu ,you won't be put in one at all. By that definition, majority of the shinobi is immune to genjutsu, Naruto included (trained to break out of genjutsu).Quote:
When did A shrug off Sasuke's genjutsu? I don't remember Sasuke usin genjutsu on A, just A saying "your Sharingan is no match for me!" It's not shocking that Sasuke was unable to use genjutsu on A, if he did use it, as genjutsu isn't his area of expertise. Minus the Mangekyo, Sasuke's around average.
What if Kakashi doesn't have the kunai? D:Quote:
I can, ma'am, I can.Quote:
I remember seeing that and being all " epic!" Still is.
Theoretically. Does it use the natural energy or natural chakra? I think the energy could do the job, but no idea what the reach is. Though, I assume it could be good enough since he was able to make FRS bigger from a distance.
Dunno, it gets Naruto and Sasuke disrespected.Quote:
Sharingan doesn't allow the users to make the best judgment, they still have to decide what to do. Plus, there's no way Sasuke can dodge or block that many swords.Quote:
According to Deidara. Deidara probably hasn't seen Oonoki at his top speed for all we know. Plus, Oonoki and Hiruzen had different way of living, Hiru wanted peace while Oonoki wanted power.Quote:
Wut? You never saw any of Jiraiya fans debating? Most Jiraiya fans are like Minato fans, usually deluded and believe neither Itachi nor Kisame OR Itachi and Kisame can't beat them. Plus, we have seen the statements be disproven.
I don't get this. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's intangible. If it was, then it wouldn't have snapped Hungry Ghost's neck when it hit him. If wind can't go through Susanoo without breaking through with brute force, I don't see why Kawazu Kumite'd do any better.Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
Unless we're talking full on melee (punches, kickes, grappling). Inwhich case, I doubt it. He can knock them around, but he likely can't outright destroy it completely. Itachi and Sasuke's Susanoo were strong enough to grab hold of gaint Sage Mode snakes and rip them apart. Granted that's not the same strength as Naruto, but it's proof of how strong it is. Not to mention the only Susanoo ever plowed through with brute strength was an incomplete one.
Oonoki flies, he doesn't need to use his muscles for that, as it's just a jutsu... it's not like Hiruzen was slow, just that his high age took it's toll after so many wars, putting him long past his prime. Also Mifune not being a shinobi has a bigger need to be physically fit than others, also he's not as old as Sarutobi was. Chiyo is a puppeteer and healer, imagining that she has some advantage because of that didn't come to your mind too?
In Itachi's last two fights he was either knowing that he would die or immortal. There was no need to care about anything but spamming the most powerful jutu's available. Who cares about a mix, if in the end, he resorts to going chakra-mecha to spam flying amaterarus, 3m arrows and keep being shielded all the time?
Schabrak said pretty much what I meant in general
That isn't speed, that is reaction time enhanced by the Sharingan, Sasuke lowered his head and dodged.
It isn't a show of overwhelming speed, it wasn't a show of comparable speed either, just like for Naruto, that sensed the attack before it came, dodged accordingly and reacted.
Naruto totally evading Raikage is a form of speed, just like Sasuke blitzing Naruto back at Oro's lair.
Those are shows of speed
What, 3 or 4 panels that Kishi drew not to end the fight in one-panel, and not only Sasuke went down twice, Bee wasn't taking this seriously either, as he said himself.Quote:
You guys need to stop nitpicking every single panel, completely disgregarding logic, to try to prove your point, I already brought the Lee vs Sasuke example, Sasuke successfully dodged Lee's initial kick without the Sharingan and went in position to parry accordingly, does that made him comparable to Lee in speed? No.
Kurenai was able to escape Itachi's genjutsu, dodge a kunai swipe and parry a kick, does that make her Itachi's equal in taijutsu and speed? No.
Sai blindsided Kabuto before they went to look for Sasuke, does that make him Kabuto's equal? No.
A tired and wounded Naruto didn't got killed by Orochimaru back in the leir when he looked for Sasuke, does that make him a match for Orochimaru? No.
Konohamaru was able to hit Hell Realm with a Rasengan, does that make him Kage ( hell even Jounin ) level? No.
Yet with that logic, if I were an hardcore fan of those characters I could say that they are, because they dodged, parried or reacted to those attacks. Every fight, every occasion is situational, you can't base a whole argument nitpicking 3 or 4 panels
He was fine, Sasuke and Suigetsu were down, Juugo was wounded and Karin was Karin. He could've murdered all 4 of them with incredible ease
Fact is it isn't an incredible show of intelligence, and all the Deidara situation was corroborated by two facts:Quote:
-Lightning > Earth
-Sharingan can see the color of chakra
And the shuriken combo isn't intelligence, is skill.
And he figured out Izanagi since Danzou fell for the oldest trick in the book ( a 70 years old war-hawk that fought in wars falling for this trick? Really ? )
Better a conservative way to wound him so Itachi could attack from a blindspot or the moment Kabuto would be shocked, or be a sitting duck doing nothing?Quote:
Better use a Chidori sword to break Kidomaru's web, or Amaterasu?
Unless that web is so tough it can withstand a Chidori, which is unlikely since, well, 13 year old Neji could break it with tiny threads of chakra
Please do reread the part of Schabrak post I quoted to ninjabotQuote:
Oonoki flies, flying is a jutsu, a jutsu that reduces your weight and incredibly increases your speed.Quote:
Its no taijutsu, neither is a physical ability.
Chiyo fought that good only because she knew perfectly Sasori's attack, thus she could dodge, Sakura too could dodge because she anticipated Sasori's fingertips movements.
That Danzou wasn't mr Perfect either is clear, just like the fact that Itachi became a MS spamming machine.
Never said the countrary regarding both instances, hell I did rage upon Itachi's situation since in the Kabuto fight he forsaken all his skills and went MS spamming only with a hax jutsu as a plus.
Remember Sage Naruto using Frog Fu to remove the spike in Son's throat?
That ( and I did say theorically ).
Actually is to accept that darkness, me thinks.Quote:
Naruto didn't eradicate Dark Naruto ( btw, it was totally ripped off from Persona series ), he accepted him.
And we saw Jinchuurikis like Gaara and Yugito being able to go full-bijuu despite not being perfect Jinchuurikis
I believe the issue is that many genjutsu can't be broken, example a Sharingan one.Quote:
Being immune means that, theorically, you can break a genjutsu whenever.
That istance, he was trying to genjutsu Raikage ( do note his hand position, he was gathering/molding chakra ) .Quote:
If you notice he later one-shots Shi with a genjutsu on his own.
Unless he tried to kill Raikage with a stare
A good punch in the balls since he lost an invaluable mementoQuote:
Yes, I was talking about how nature energy traveled through objects, enhancing Naruto's reach.Quote:
Same reason why imho a Juuken user could be able to theorically wound someone inside Susano'o, problem being if they can survive until then or a giant Susano'o punch
True, but Sharingan's predicting ability are pretty hax, if you are hit despite them it proves that you are really behind your opponent imho.Quote:
Always remember KN0 Naruto vs Sasuke, how it changed before and after the three tomoe
Well Deidara was pretty young when he was scouted, so he could've seen an Oonoki younger.Quote:
Oro did say that if Hiruzen was even 5 years younger he would've died.
Every fanbase has such fans, I talk about competent readers.
Of course everyone is biased on his own ways, I can't be objective when talking about Chouji, for example.
Or talking about the Nagato that was converted by a fucking book
Last edited by Uchiha_Blood; August 10, 2012 at 04:25 AM.
Wrong. Both ninja were running at eachother when he dodged, meaning he would've had an even harder time of dodging thanks to momentum and the fact that his opponent was moving faster than he. Unlike Naruto, who was stationary and prepared to make a last-ditch movement, Sasuke had less time to react. Not to mention from the get-go Sasuke was managing to get on Raikage's blindside with his sword attacks.Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
You're the one not comprehending our arguments. We never said that he said you don't need the necessary speed if you have a Sharingan. We're taking issue with the fact that he's lowering the Sharingan's predictive abilities aswell as Sasuke's physical speed to make it seem like Naruto's feat against Sandaime Raikage was the same as what Sasuke did to Yondaime Raikage. It's not.Originally Posted by Schabrak
It's a form of speed, it's just an inferior showing compared to what Sasuke did.Quote:
His natural energy didn't travel through a Bijuu. He had a clone hit the spike with his bare hand while in Sage Mode... lmao. See, this is what the arguments come from: seeing one thing and then rewording it in a way that makes it sound like something completely different happened.Quote:
LOL, and this too. Downplaying exact canon instances of impressive feats when there's no argument against it. Every single argument in Bee's favor however is crushed under more canon facts in Sasuke's favor:Quote:
Bee holding back because he's toying with them is crushed by the fact that Sasuke's holding back inorder to avoid killing him.
Bee not using his chakra shroud and still succeeding is crushed by the fact that Sasuke was wounded from his battle with Itachi and wasn't using his Sharingan.
Different situation all together. If Sasuke had got speed blitzed as severely as he did against Lee while fighting Raikage you'd have some semblance of a point. No such thing here. Not to mention Sasuke was aware of Raikage's speed by the elbow dodging point.Quote:
Do us a favor and quote the exact instance anyone, anywhere said that Sasuke was equal to Raikage in speed. Yeah.Quote:
...you're posting multiple sentences in rapid succession to delude others into thinking there's a point in here some where, right?Quote:
Yeah. There's so many different factors in all of these instances that none of them at all have anything to do with the Sasuke vs. Raikage situation.Quote:
Nitpicking is when you take things that are inconsequential and bring them up to form an argument. ALL of the instances we bring up ARE consequential because the combined elements make for different outcomes, and they are in addition to EVERY OTHER BIT OF EVIDENCE you disregard. No amount of selective reading is gonna let you escape them. Call it nitpicking if you want, it doesn't change the fact that they are indeed, facts. You either refute them, or you give up.Quote:
I'm not about to look up the entire scan of what Itachi says reality is. But basically, he was saying reality is what you make of it. However you percieve the world is your own personal reality.
So if your reality is made up of misinterpretations and blatant lies then sure. I deny your reality. I rebuke it.
Sasuke vs Raikage
Naruto vs Raikage
Seems a pretty similar situation to me
No its not, to narrowly dodge an attack by lowering your head isn't a form of speed, is a form of pure enhanced reflexes.Quote:
This is a form of speed, going at a comparable speed.
And pray tell me what is this force that traveled towards the spike?Quote:
Actually when he was impaled by all the swords he had his Sharingan on, and we don't know how Itachi's wounds affected him.Quote:
Doesn't change the fact that he couldn't follow the swords, wounds or not wounds.
I made an absurd example to show you just how absurd is claiming that Sasuke is comparable in speed to A simply because he dodged one attack.Quote:
So, by your logic that every panel is a fact, the facts mentioned above too are valid, right?Quote:
Facts are facts when they are backed up by solid proofs, Sasuke lowering his head isn't a valid proof that he is comparable to Raikage in speed, Sasuke parrying blows for what, 3 or 4 panels doesn't make him comparable to Bee when the end result was him needing a phoenix down twice when he engaged him in close combat, the end result is that Sasuke had to rely on jutsus such as Susano'o and Amaterasu to survive, because he, by himself, wasn't good enough.
This is a fact, and its not something any Sasuke fan should fell bad for, because in the end he still emerged with a win and a tie against Kage level opponents.
Doesn't change the fact that he is in no way, shape or form comparable to the ones mentioned above in speed, which is saying much because they are among the fastest guys in the Narutoverse.
He's not, but no other sharingan/rinnengan wielder is either.Originally Posted by Uchiha_BloodGood to know what you think about our post.Quote:And that's what we are saying? respect right out the door.Quote:
At least I don't remember saying that Itachi or Madara could beat any of the actual kages bar Tsunade
Saying that Sasuke is comparable to A in speed, for example, is unjustified and exagerated hype, imho.Quote:
Same as saying that Sasuke has speed even to Yondaime, or that he is one of the most intelligent guys in the manga, and those are only the most recent examples I witnessed in this days.
I still don't understand this need to believe Sasuke is the best at everything, Kishi didn't make him that way, never had and never will, Sasuke's best thing, imho, is that he is a "flawed" genius, unlike Sues like Itachi or one-dimensional characters like Yondaime.
But maybe its me that likes to see him that way
I was being overly dramatic on purpose, you know, being ironic it was without maliceQuote:
Secondly, those are excuses. The point remains that they were all elderly like Danzo and had no problems fighting younger ninjas, so what exactly is wrong with Danzo doing so when he had a stamina boost via Hashirama's cells?
And thirdly, what does that mean? If anything, wouldn't Itachi being immortal mean he shouldn't have to protect himself? Given the caliber of opponent that he was facing, why exactly shouldn't Sasuke make use of a technique that allows him to defend when he needs it? Again, it's not as if he activates Susanoo at the beginning of battle and continues onward with just that like Madara has done. He mainly activates it when he needs to defend, with a few times used when he wants to attack swiftly.
Using a critical technique when it's needed isn't exactly spamming. Apart from one or two time, the only times Sasuke has used his MS techniques were when they were actually necessary.