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I don't know why someone like Obito didn't/couldn't go intangible the instant when he thought that he is in deep shit.
He either couldn't go intangible before Amaterasu or he thought Izanagi is the better option, since he didn't know what is going to happen.
The only info the Roots had is that Obito can phase through solid objects. This is the only thing they confirmed in their fight.
The mechanics of Obitos intangibleness was found out/analyzed during the fight.
Danzou also said that they had to be cautious, because of Obitos unknown powers.
I don't/can't give Obito the Genjutsu immunity card, unless Kishi proves otherwise.
- Kakashi was caught in a Genjutsu
- Danzou was caught in a Genjutsu
- 3-tomoe Sasuke was caught in a Genjutsu
- MS Itachi was caught in a Genjutsu, several times (lol)
- EMS Sasuke was caught in a Genjutsu (lol)
I really can't see Itachi losing here. Minato and two fodder Roots were able to analyze Obitos ability without taking any damage and they were able to hit him at least once.
Amaterasu, Susanoo, the Sword of Totsuka, Genjutsus, handseal speed so fast that your opponent doesn't realize that you used Clones, high intelligence and analyzing skills are enough for Itachi to perform better feats than the Roots and Minato.
In the end it doesn't matter, because there is a huge difference between a fight in a manga and in our arena.
So what do you guys think of naruto adding a twist and make a bijuudama shuriken, by adding his wind nature to the bijuudama?
No, but both were influenced by their bijuu. I think Kyuubi took control of Naruto during that time though, whereas Gaara was intentionally messed up.Quote:
You're also taking a guess that Nagato never went through any suffering that was related to the Rinnegan.Quote:
What do you mean about Haku, Orochimaru, and Sasuke?Quote:
Exactly, eyeballs still depend on their owners. Bijuu do not, they just need their owner to be alive. If Sasuke didn't train his body to increase his speed, it wouldn't have helped him against Gaara or even Raikage. If Neji didn't train on his own, his ability to see tenketsu (?) wouldn't matter if he wasn't able to use the Hyuuga main branch's jutsu. Naruto and Gaara wouldn't need to train, actually. Gaara has automatic defense that protects him from almost anything but speed. Naruto can just feel emotional and get Kyuubi's chakra, which boosts his speed, strength, and durability as well as heal him. Gaara and Naruto don't have to train for that or even be aware of their bijuu. That's basically a free powerup, regardless of social cost.
Considering we saw Sasuke awake after the operation with bandages on, it's not a complete assumption.Quote:
No, but it means that it's likely that characters can be awake during eye transplants.
Swapping out eyes like baseball cards? Only saw him do that twice.Quote:
A risk that never happened at all because the Kyuubi decided not to. Naruto fighting Kyuubi is a risk because Naruto was actually in danger. Naruto getting his chakra drained by Kyuubi wasn't a risk (after we learned the Kyuubi stopped) because after a while, Kyuubi stopped taking Naruto's chakra. It'd have been a risk only if Kyuubi was still completely evil, since it would have taken all of Naruto's chakra.
Kyuubi's been giving Naruto free powerups after powerups. Take out what happened to Naruto socially, and you can't really argue against this. It's like saying Sasuke worked hard to find Itachi's eyes, so it wasn't a free powerup when he got the EMS.
If you were to argue that Raikage can't touch Minato despite the plan he came up with, I can agree with that because Minato was alive until he sacrificed himself and never looked to sustain any injuries.
ANd lulz? Sasuke can't solo five kage when he doesn't have Mokuton or Rinnegan. The only one who can come close to that is Naruto, and I don't count ET Madara.
Not as much as Sasuke.Quote:
I am being objective, though. Hell, I don't even consider Nagato losing to Itachi (or combo of Itachi, Naruto, and Bee [Itachi's my favorite, Naruto's one of my favorites, and I don't like Nagato]) canon, and I blame Kabuto for making Nagato fight badly. I defend Nagato in regards to this. And despite me usually arguing against Minato (or sometimes), I defended him when people said he should have realized Tobi was Obito. And I still say Minato's the only one to hit Tobi on his own terms without prior knowledge on his own. To be honest thoug, I don't dislike Minato at all, just his fans.
Plus, I like to argue for the underdogs. \m/ Or people who get unfairly judged against.
Someone voted for Sasori (?) beating Orochimaru just because he hated Orochimaru.Quote:
If he gets paired against Itachi, people will say Itachi wins. <_< Not me though, I refuse to count Izanami as an actual jutsu.
But yeah, Kabutomaru is pretty good. I think Naruto would give him the biggest challenge.
If Tobi has enough time to react, he can avoid Amaterasu. Why shouldn't he be able to? Though actually, Amaterasu comes from another dimension, right?
Fine. He had to teleport two or three times and escape Tobi before getting sucked in in order to formulate a plan. I don't think anyone else but Niidaime Hokage has this luxury unless they have someone else to help them or can react quickly to the warp attempt.Quote:
Yes because Danzou broke out, Sauske broke out, Itachi broke out (?), and Kakashi... broke out?Quote:
I'm not saying Tobi is immune, I'm saying he can break out of it more easily. No one is immune to genjutsu.
Minato had Hiraishin, basically the only reason he even touched Tobi. Despite three hits, Tobi still got up like it was nohting. Root never hit him, Tobi let himself be contaminated by Torune (?)'s nanobugs to warp him away.Quote:
I question that, since Tobi was able to react to Naruto trying to rasengan him from teh back.
Minato had Hiraishin. The nanobugs were what got Tobi and only because he had to touch to warp 'em away. Itachi by himself can't take out Tobi, I just don't see how.Quote:
True. Fights tend to be more canon while arenas are more about speculations.Quote:
So yeah... Torune hit Obito, because the purpose of his Jutsu is what I wrote above and what actually happened.
That's why I doubt he was too shocked to go intangible, since Izanagi also requires to be activated.
The Roots never hit him? What was the point for Torune covering his body with those bugs? Hitting the enemy when they make contact I suppose? It's irrelevant how the contact came off. The fact remains that Torune used his Jutsu for a case like this.
Last edited by syx; October 08, 2012 at 03:30 PM.
Heres my two cents on the bias debate. Who gets favored and who gets downplayed. I'm sure I will leave so members out, so I hope no one takes offense.
Downplays Sasuke to the fullest, over hype Naruto.. I also think you hate on Itachi for just being abeastly shinobi without any outside help.(bijuu, Hashirama cells)
I'm not going to say you over hype Sasuke cause you don't like the character. I will say you find yourself defending him on arguments that Sasuke have basically been shown proof against. I also think you give Oonoki to much credit forgiving one over power jutsu.
Over hype Sasuke to the fullest..
Over hype Minato to the fullest. Downplay everyone else.
Give Sasuke to much credit, down play Minato to the fullest.
That's all crosses my mind. Agian, not attempting to defend anyone.
This is base Naruto (who had no speed feats) charging/jumping at Obito with a Rasengan. Naruto wasn't fast at all and with good senses you can hear someone who is jumping at you with a Rasengan.
How is such an attack comparable to a Totsuka-blitz or an Amaterasu, a technique which is executed nearly in an instant. It's not even a "moving" Jutsu in form of a projectile. Completely different.
It's still reaching no matter what way you slice it. And the rest is assumptions.Quote:
Ok so it's correct to assume that had Naruto not made the connection that he made and was instead a crazy person, Minato would have still been able to do fix everything?Quote:
I'm actually basing that on what we've been shown. If in the future, it is said that Nagato went through suffering for simply having the Rinnegan, then I will give you that. For right now however, we know that all of Nagato's skill and abilities came from those eyes. Eyes which originally belonged to Madara. Yes, he trained while with Jiraiya. However, we never saw him use anything outside of the Rinnegan standards when not in a flashback. On top of all of that, he was a complete and utter tool. Literally, to give him any credit outside of simply utilizing the eyes, you'd have to resort to assumptions and benefit of the doubt.Quote:
You're trying to pull in real world logic to give points to Nagato. Yes, mistakes with transplants happen but this is a manga . If such a possibility had been mentioned within the Manga I'd understand however.....
You said that the Fox did not start exerting its influence over Naruto till his training with Jiraiya. if I recall correctly the fox's chakra comes with it's will correct? Therefor it's influence. It was completely apparent with Haku, less apparent when he Protected Sasuke against the Orochimaru's snake and his fight with Sasuke was the first time a tailed transformation was shown/Quote:
Once again, how does that not count? It doesn't matter the benefits it gives if they have the possibility of losing themselves entirely due to social cost. I like how you used Neji and Sasuke to argue for Nagato. Their cases are entirely different from his. The Rinnegan alone put him above a lot of people in the power scale. Hell, the guy murdered three people without being conscious of it. Sasuke and Neji had to use their skills as individuals in tandem with their eyes.Quote:
And we do not know how much time had passed from the operation actually finishing to when we saw Sasuke. So it's logical to assume he was awake for the entire thing? Even still it doesn't make sense to assume that since 1 character was awake for an operation that all characters that get eye transplants are in the same condition. Just because you can be awake, doesn't mean that Nagato was. You're just reaching to give him points.Quote:
Yes, more than once. He literally had a spare eye lying around.Quote:
It's still a risk because it was mentioned in the manga as such. Madara messing up on Nagato's transplant was not, that's just pulling in real world logic to try and give Nagato points.Quote:
There lies the very reason you don't want to count it. The fact of the matter is however, that's still a cost even if you don't want to see it that way.
Last edited by KiSwordsman; October 08, 2012 at 07:48 PM.
You overstimating both sasuke and itachi to the fullest. And you hate Minato because that man is the true definition of being a ninja. Who doesn't have an eye power, a bijuu inside, and a KG. That man has just a pure talent. A talent that makes him the greatest ninja that the konoha has ever produced. A talent that makes him the most dangerous man in the battlefield. A talent that makes him as unsurpassed by someonewho fought him. A talent that make jiraiya think that he was the savior and the destined child of the ninja world. And above all, the flee on sight order makes him more beastly than itachi.
---------- Post added at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------
And I forgot to tell you that because of Minato, the man who defeated tobi and the kyubi, sasuke and itachi are still alived. Without Minato, tobi and the kyubi already raped the entire konoha, together with the entire uchiha clan. That includes itachi and the super baby, sasuke. So, you should be thankfull.
Let's not personally attack people.
Attacking characters is perfectly fine. Pick on Minato somemore everybody! But not on eachother.
@Prince Sasuke: Yeah... you're probably gonna get warned for calling out people like that. I got warned back in the day for demanding certain posters (I named them all) explain to me how Jiraiya could beat Sasuke in that god aweful tournament.
Itachi used clones against RM Naruto? Are you talking about when Itachi first engaged Naruto and Bee in a hand-to-hand combat? I thought that was just Itachi himself being fast as hell.Quote:
I think clone is actually one of the best, when fighting by one's self. Tobi can't touch Itachi if he's too busy avoiding the clone's attacks, like with Naruto-Gai-Kakashi combo.
True. I also don't see how Tobi or ANYONE can get out of Tsukuyomi when Itachi manipulates the time. I don't think he did that against Sasuke in their final fight.Quote:
He let himself be infected by the bugs, though, as he had no other choice. If Tobi wanted to kill Torune, I'm sure he didn't have to touch him.Quote:
someone pointed it out.Quote:
Agreed. As long as it's smart and not biased in an idiotic way, I actually enjoy the discussions.Quote:
Naruto's reason for goin evil would have been due to how hated he was and how alone he was, resenting the villagers. If Minato explains stuff, then Naruto would either stay evil or turn good, probably turning good after knowing he's loved and what Minato and Kushina sacrificed for him.
Not all of his skills and abilities. His taijutsu wasn't Rinnegan based, as far as we know.Quote:
True, I always say Rinnegan was the only reason why Nagato was as good as he was, and that he's vastly overrated. Take away the Rinnegan and you only have a person good enough in taijutsu, but dumb otherwise.
Oh, I know that, but Naruto still had influence and could still think for himself. During the timeskip, Kyuubi completely took over and nearly killed Jiraiya. It also completely took over when Yamato, Sakura, Sai, and Naruto were meeting Kabuto and met Orochimaru, and when Naruto fought Pain.Quote:
Even if Naruto becomes crazy and pays a heavy price socially, it doesn't change the fact that the Kyuubi will still protect him and give him power.Quote:
But Nagato began to actively use Rinnegan. He still had to train to use it, somehow. He couldn't have known most of the power that Rinnegan gave him without training or practicing... though Kabuto apparently seemed to know when he took control of Nagato.
Yes, just as it's logical to assume he was under anesthesia and knocked out.Quote:
Didn't he get that from someone? But he only swapped his eyes with Izuna, at best, give Nagato his eyes, and took someone's eye. But my definition of swapping means exchange of eyes, which Madara didn't do as far as we know.Quote:
Well, won't deny that.Quote: