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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
I doubt a clone continues to consume chakra after creation, as that is something that likely would have been mentioned. Nor any sort of time limit, which would seem to go against the tactic of using them as expendable spies if they couldn't last long enough to gather anything useful. And considering we've seen Itachi and Sarutobi have a clone run around for some time, not being able to use them at full potential is pretty much as a partner in battle, which fits with the whole usage as a spy issue.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=558309147518848 here you can see kishimoto drawing naruto and sasuke,those who like art will like viewing it
It can be said that Sasuke contributed to Itachi's death. However, he didn't actually kill him. And despite that, it took a while after the battle had actually finished for Sasuke to unlock the Mangekyo. the sorrow and regret he felt from the experience itself, and the past is what did it for him. So within the same vein, it isn't at all unreasonable, as a matter fact it's obvious, that the mere sight of Rin dying at the hands of Kakashi is what unlocked the Mangekyo for him.
Not saying that you were at all wrong for thinking the way that you did. However, I was just pointing out that Sasuke showed us Itachi's words weren't entirely true. In that, it wasn't the only way to go to unlock the Mangekyo.
A lot of what Itachi said weren't true or had complete information. Sasuke still had a hand in Itachi's death, and he was the last one Itachi fought. He learned that Itachi loved him, but he couldn't protect him up close. I don't think Obito felt like he betrayed Rin... though it could take betrayal, as he did feel Kakashi betrayed him/Rin. Sasuke could have felt he betrayed Itachi.
Oh. I don't remember why I said that. :x
I probably meant that the way Mangekyo was said/shown to be unlocked - you just described the ways - only Kakashi could have unlocked it. Obito didn't show or shouldn't have shown regret, as if he killed Rin. I'm guessing one Mangekyo unlocking automatically unlocks the other Mangekyo, especially since both Mangekyo unlocked at the same time.
Or Obito could have somehow unlocked his first, resulting in Kakashi's eye being unlocked. SO MYSTERIOUS
I think it's quite simply. Both Kakashi and Obito unlocked their Mangekyous simultaneously. Kakashi killed Rin, and Obito saw Rin being killed through his eyes, as if he did it himself.
Last edited by KiSwordsman; November 23, 2012 at 03:54 AM.
Ofcourse it was a traumatic moment and im not surprised he snapped but thinking about it long and hard makes you wonder if he always had the kind of thoughts he has now. Going from loving to psychopath in a matter of minutes is no ordinary change.
It makes one wonder whether he'd go this crazy if Kakashi died. As far as I'm trying to convince myself, Obito went batshit crazy because his best friend or ally betrayed not only another ally, but someone he loved. Obito did keep pointing out Kakashi's hand in Rin's death. Though that doesn't change my opinion that it's a shitty reason for him to turn evil. Even after seeing or knowing how Kakashi felt, he still chose to be evil instead of thinking about what RIn wanted, like how Sasuke decided to get revenge despite Itachi's wishes, until he finally talked to ET Itachi.
It could also feel like Kishi's setting up Obito's turn. We find out why Kakashi killed Rin, and Tobi likely turns good after realizing what happened. Or he finds out that Madara was the reason that Rin died. Sasuke turning evil, or Naruto turning evil is justified. Tobi turning evil is not entirely justified. I'd mention Nagato too, but that's a point of view thing. He may not have been evil, considering his plan was to establish peace. He just had a different way of doing it.
That's my point, it wasn't just the fact that Rin died. However it's easy to simplify it like that to belittle him. Plus, the crap fed to him by Madara didn't help all that much. It gave him a way out, a reset button. Kakashi still being alive or having that eyeball is the only thing that I agree with you on. Apathy only goes so far. It's obvious that it was done more for balancing issues rather than making actually sense within the story itself.
Last edited by KiSwordsman; November 23, 2012 at 02:42 PM.
In the world of Shinobi, there's always going to be people dying all around the globe and in those deaths, someone will never find any sort of meaning if they lost their beloved ones. That's what Nagato was talking about and to be honest, he was right to an extent, a fact that was also accepted by Naruto.
Rin dies and Obito, who was an ambitious, yet a nice kid turns into evil. Kakashi lost his father around the same age, or when he was even younger than Obito was at that point and he didn't let hatred fill his heart.
Yes, it's true that seeing someone you love die in front of your eyes is painful, but his pain is nowhere near being as severe as what Nagato went through.
For Obito, it was Rin. For Nagato, it was his parents, his best friend (someone who he refers to as his dream) and countless comrades.
Please, don't give me that "I'm nobody. I don't want to be anybody" thing.
If he really meant that, he'd just go and live in an isolated place like Madara did and die on his own. But clearly, he has an evil ambition and someone who has an ambition cannot refer to himself as nobody.
His ambitious project, Tsuki no Me will rob every single person of their right of living.
It's true that in the world of Shinobi, deaths are trash. But deciding on behalf of everyone and taking away their chance to live all by yourself is even worse than trash.
And Obito is schooled by his own words.
All in all, there is no justification of his actions. He shouldn't make a final move the way Nagato did. He should die a miserable death in Kakashi's hands.
He deserved that much.
---------- Post added November 25, 2012 at 09:13 AM ---------- Previous post was November 24, 2012 at 10:17 AM ----------
I have a question I cannot come up with an answer to and don't want to open a new thread for it, so, instead, I'm asking it here.
Obito somehow met Nagato as a kid (or baby) and gave the Rinnegan to him. Then, seeing his parents' death in front of his eyes, Nagato awakened the Rinnegan in that moment of despair and sorrow.
Once Rinnegan is activated, there is no such thing as deactivating a Rinnegan, as far as I know.
So, Madara had awakened the Rinnegan just before his death and his eyes were ithe ones mplanted in Nagato, so, weren't those eyes already awakened?
When Rin transplanted Obito's activated Sharingan to Kakashi, it was also active for Kakashi and in fact, it remained so, as Kakashi had no way of deactivating it, unlike an Uchiha.
If I assume that the same process would apply with the Rinnegan, shouldn't be true that Nagato always had the Rinnegan awakened, even at the beginning?
How come that eyes were deactivated in the beginning, that I don't really understand.
Feel free to refute my arguments with or without reference.
Indeed, I may be missing something very obvious
Nagato's hair always covered his eyes, so it's very possible he always had the Rinnegan active and it was just not visible to others til he moved his hair.
People keep treating it as though it is only Rin's death that lead Obito to insanity and his current path. It isn't just that. You don't think that it was a combination of that and seeing the person that he sacrificed his life for, and gave his eye to, be the one to kill her? Because before that moment, he did say this. Of course, this doesn't at all justify his end goal. However, that's not what I'm trying to do. It's like people forget that Kakashi was the one to plunge his arm through Rin's Torso. Even if we are given hints that there was a reason for it, Obito going insane and seeing a reset button in the form of Madara's plan isn't going to give two shits.
Yes, the end goal is very extreme. And the amount of shit that he has put people through for that is, in most peoples opinions, unforgivable. However, it isn't just Rin that drove him to this.
This right here pretty much sums up Chapter 611 without spoiling it, and how Uchihas view the world.