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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But that's the thing, apathy towards Kakashi wouldn't mean regret. Nagato had apathy towards Jiraiya, but there was no sign of him regretting their time together.
    I think there is a difference between apathy and a god complex. Even still, Jiraiya, while having a deeper connection with Nagato due to the amount of time they spent together, did not have the same or similar events happen between them.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Nagato had a god complex towards the entire world, but not really towards Jiraiya, who he did show some acknowledgement against. And I would think the belief that one has the right to decide the fate of the entire world should exist within a dreamworld all due to their own personal feelings would fall under a god complex too.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Nagato had a god complex towards the entire world, but not really towards Jiraiya, who he did show some acknowledgement against. And I would think the belief that one has the right to decide the fate of the entire world should exist within a dreamworld all due to their own personal feelings would fall under a god complex too.

    Where is it said that Obito feels he has the right to do what he's doing? Nagato truly believed himself to be a divine figure. He felt himself to be above Jiraiya because of this. Believing yourself to be above someone due to a delusion of divinity is different than just feeling apathy toward that person. Plus, my earlier point still stands.

    ---------- Post added December 09, 2012 at 11:34 AM ---------- Previous post was December 08, 2012 at 11:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It does matter because if Tobi learns why Kakashi killed Rin, he just may turn good.
    What does that have to do with Obito awakening the Mangekyo? That's easily explained away by the fact that the dude went insane, as I've mentioned before.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; December 09, 2012 at 03:08 PM.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Nothing to do with that at all.

    Insane people don't tend to think stuff that'd get them to unlock Mangekyo though. I still wanna know how Obito was able to see through Kakashi's Sharingan when that shouldn't be possible. At least Gaara's chakra was likely connected to his sand eye.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Nothing to do with that at all.

    Insane people don't tend to think stuff that'd get them to unlock Mangekyo though. I still wanna know how Obito was able to see through Kakashi's Sharingan when that shouldn't be possible. At least Gaara's chakra was likely connected to his sand eye.
    That's why he experienced the initial trauma first, and then went bat sh*t crazy. I'm actually curious as to how Obito was able to see through his old eye as well. It'd probably have something to do with the Shared Vision aspect that never got an explanation. Even though it wouldn't make much sense in that situation.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    Where is it said that Obito feels he has the right to do what he's doing? Nagato truly believed himself to be a divine figure. He felt himself to be above Jiraiya because of this. Believing yourself to be above someone due to a delusion of divinity is different than just feeling apathy toward that person. Plus, my earlier point still stands.
    During the summit. I don't believe Nagato literally though himself as an actual god, but considered himself one due to possessing the legendary power of the Rinnegan. He felt himself above others due to his experiences, which caused him to disregard Jiraiya's beliefs after what he went through. But Jiraiya himself was given some acknowledgement. Without doing anything critical towards Kakashi, there's really nothing to actually regret, since one doesn't regret a person directly.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    I can't really correlate between Nagato and Obito's cases. Nagato didn't hold a grudge against Jiraiya at all. He was initially sharing the same goal with Jiraiya and deviated from that path with what he refers to as his traumatic experiences. He wasn't an idiot to call himself divine. After what we went through, he casted aside his former master's ideals and took his own path.

    Obito also acts upon a certain event, but his higher goal refers to nothing but Rin's sake. For me, because of this, he's simply trash. He didn't go through a tenth of what Nagato did and now seeks the end of the world, while all Nagato after was a cycle of chaos to establish his own interpretation of piece to replace the unending battles.
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; December 09, 2012 at 05:11 PM.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    During the summit. I don't believe Nagato literally though himself as an actual god, but considered himself one due to possessing the legendary power of the Rinnegan. He felt himself above others due to his experiences, which caused him to disregard Jiraiya's beliefs after what he went through. But Jiraiya himself was given some acknowledgement. Without doing anything critical towards Kakashi, there's really nothing to actually regret, since one doesn't regret a person directly.
    Was it his talk with the Kage because I'm not seeing it. please link it. Just to clarify, believing something is the right thing to do, and believing you have a right to do something, are two different things. One can still regret actions done for a person. We Know that Obito did two major things for Kakashi. He saved his life, and gave him his eye. He asked him to do one thing, protect Rin. Turns out, Kakashi killed her. So I'm not seeing how he would not be able to feel regret for those things. What do you mean by "without doing anything critical?"

    Exactly, which in all honesty is the sad part about it. He believed himself divine because of "his" eyes. but in truth, he was just a tool to be used by others. But I digress. He believed those experiences made him turn from a person into a God. He still looked down on Jiraiya because, in his words, "Jiraiya was still just a person." That's not apathy, that's believing yourself above someone. Even if Jiraiya got acknowledgment, Nagato still believed himself above Jiraiya. maybe not around the time of his own death, but definitely around the time that he fought him.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    That's why he experienced the initial trauma first, and then went bat sh*t crazy. I'm actually curious as to how Obito was able to see through his old eye as well. It'd probably have something to do with the Shared Vision aspect that never got an explanation. Even though it wouldn't make much sense in that situation.
    Maybe it's a hint that Obito's eyes will get Rinnegan? <_<

    I guess it was a way to add to Obito's trauma? Experience Kakashi stabbing Rin and her reaction firsthand, Kishi probably wanted to keep it to Obito's point of view and showing it in Kakashi's view would have broken that. If that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I can't really correlate between Nagato and Obito's cases. Nagato didn't hold a grudge against Jiraiya at all. He was initially sharing the same goal with Jiraiya and deviated from that path with what he refers to as his traumatic experiences. He wasn't an idiot to call himself divine. After what we went through, he casted aside his former master's ideals and took his own path.

    Obito also acts upon a certain evet, but his higher goal refers to nothing but Rin's sake. For me, because of this, he's simply trash. He didn't go through a tenth of what Nagato did and now seeks the end of the world, while all Nagato after was a cycle of chaos to establish his own interpretation of piece to replace the unending battles.
    He did hold some grudge against JIraiya for leaving them. And it was actually Yahiko's ideals if I recall, at least younger Yahiko.

    NOt for Rin's sake in my opinion, but for his. Nagato's goals were much better because he genuinely wanted to establish peace, while Obito just wants to put the world under illusion so he can have Rin back and live the way he wanted to live.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He did hold some grudge against JIraiya for leaving them. And it was actually Yahiko's ideals if I recall, at least younger Yahiko.

    NOt for Rin's sake in my opinion, but for his. Nagato's goals were much better because he genuinely wanted to establish peace, while Obito just wants to put the world under illusion so he can have Rin back and live the way he wanted to live.
    I never got a hint of such a feeling. Even when Jiraiya was leaving, Konan and Yahiko were crying and Nagato just thanked Jiraiya gratefully.
    It's not too different, I would say. All they were after was attaining the peace. Though, in a way, Nagato came to believe in Jiraiya's philosophies in time because he had Yahiko on his side. When he lost him, he couldn't bring himself to believe in those ideals again.

    Ah, right. That's what I was trying to imply.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Didn't he mention that kind of grudge when they reunited, though? He implied he resented Jiraiya for leaving them.

    I guess Nagato went crazy, but at least he gained his sanity and rationale back. Can't say the same for Tobi. <_< I think Yahiko's death was just the final straw in the hay that led to Nagato thinkin destruction leads to peace. Or, he realized he couldn't protect the ones he loved, leading him to what he became.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    Was it his talk with the Kage because I'm not seeing it. please link it. Just to clarify, believing something is the right thing to do, and believing you have a right to do something, are two different things. One can still regret actions done for a person. We Know that Obito did two major things for Kakashi. He saved his life, and gave him his eye. He asked him to do one thing, protect Rin. Turns out, Kakashi killed her. So I'm not seeing how he would not be able to feel regret for those things. What do you mean by "without doing anything critical?"
    A god complex means possessing inflated sense of personal powers and an refusal to admit failure or the possibility of error. I would say that fits Obito and Madara to a T. Also, I was referring to his comments about having the entire wold become one with him.

    For a person, yes. But normally the regret would connect to their later actions. Which is why Obito giving up his Sharingan is questionable, since as far as it was shown, Obito wasn't aware that it was required to use Chidori, and thus he wouldn't have connected the two. Kakashi saved Obito's life twice, so that's moot in turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    Exactly, which in all honesty is the sad part about it. He believed himself divine because of "his" eyes. but in truth, he was just a tool to be used by others. But I digress. He believed those experiences made him turn from a person into a God. He still looked down on Jiraiya because, in his words, "Jiraiya was still just a person." That's not apathy, that's believing yourself above someone. Even if Jiraiya got acknowledgment, Nagato still believed himself above Jiraiya. maybe not around the time of his own death, but definitely around the time that he fought him.
    While he was unknowingly being used and not a real inheritor of the Rinnegan, Nagato wasn't aware of that and thus could rightly assume he had a link to the narutoverse's god known as the Rikudou Sennin. Nagato displayed apathy towards Jiraiya's words when talking about Yahiko, which is something Jiraiya even noted. He refused to listen to Jiraiya's words due to superiority, but his overall attitude was apathetic and emotionless.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Didn't he mention that kind of grudge when they reunited, though? He implied he resented Jiraiya for leaving them.

    I guess Nagato went crazy, but at least he gained his sanity and rationale back. Can't say the same for Tobi. <_< I think Yahiko's death was just the final straw in the hay that led to Nagato thinkin destruction leads to peace. Or, he realized he couldn't protect the ones he loved, leading him to what he became.
    Oh, then, it wasn't a very logical thing to hold a grudge. It was his promise to keep Yahiko and Konan safe, and he couldn't do it. One can even resent himself in that state, though, it's a bit complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    While he was unknowingly being used and not a real inheritor of the Rinnegan, Nagato wasn't aware of that and thus could rightly assume he had a link to the narutoverse's god known as the Rikudou Sennin. Nagato displayed apathy towards Jiraiya's words when talking about Yahiko, which is something Jiraiya even noted. He refused to listen to Jiraiya's words due to superiority, but his overall attitude was apathetic and emotionless.
    This is undeniable. He showed a very nonchalant attitude in talking about Yahiko's death, despite that event being one of the two most traumatic events in his own life. But apparently, it was just the facade he kept up to deceive Jiraiya.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    It wasn't the grudge because of what happened, but because he thought Jiraiya abandoned them? I'm not sure if Nagato ever says this, or if it's implied. I do know he mentioned how life got hard/worse after Jiraiya left, and that he knew nothing of it.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    A god complex means possessing inflated sense of personal powers and an refusal to admit failure or the possibility of error. I would say that fits Obito and Madara to a T. Also, I was referring to his comments about having the entire wold become one with him.

    For a person, yes. But normally the regret would connect to their later actions. Which is why Obito giving up his Sharingan is questionable, since as far as it was shown, Obito wasn't aware that it was required to use Chidori, and thus he wouldn't have connected the two. Kakashi saved Obito's life twice, so that's moot in turn.
    That's not really saying he has a right to it. I'm not entirely sure how that connects to believing you have a right to something. Where as Nagato...

    "As a God, what I say, what I think, becomes the law of God."

    Obito is not doing this because he thinks it's an "act of God, (him)." He's doing this because he thinks it's the only thing that can be done, and he'll, or more accurately, Madara will have the power to do it. if I haven't made it clear enough already, I in no way condone what he's doing, the means at which he's going by it, and the end results.

    In regard to the bolded part, The regret does connect to Kakashi's later actions, him killing Rin. You phrase it as though Obito had to know that his Sharingan specifically had a hand in Rin's death for him to feel regret. One can still feel regret without knowing exactly how much one's own actions affect certain events. I'm not really sure how it's moot considering he sacrificed himself.

    Quote Quote:
    While he was unknowingly being used and not a real inheritor of the Rinnegan, Nagato wasn't aware of that and thus could rightly assume he had a link to the narutoverse's god known as the Rikudou Sennin. Nagato displayed apathy towards Jiraiya's words when talking about Yahiko, which is something Jiraiya even noted. He refused to listen to Jiraiya's words due to superiority, but his overall attitude was apathetic and emotionless.
    Oh, I'm aware of that, I just find it hilarious. You implied that he showed apathy toward Jiraiya overall. How was his overall attitude not one of superiority as well? He believed He knew better than Jiraiya because his experiences turned him into a "God." No doubt eating up the B.S Obito fed to him. I don't understand how that equates to indifference.

    Also we are talking about a character who went from this to this in two chapters I'm almost positive that not much time passed within the manga itself, And a character that went from mortal to God in the span of a number of years with a sizable amount of manipulation strung in there.

    Even if Jiraiya and Nagato's relationship had more substance, due to the amount of time they spent together. They didn't even have close to similar events happen within their relationship.
    Last edited by KiSwordsman; December 10, 2012 at 04:38 AM.

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