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As for Mom, I don't know. From what we've seen, she could turn out to be a giant. Or she could be of Moria's size. I'm leaning towards the 2nd. Also, I'm with you about Lola. I just can't see mother and daughter being so different in all, but who knows, right?
I know Oda usually mess up with sizes and proportions, but ever since that guy predicted Shirahoshi was Poseidon I want to hit a prediction too! XD
Beside, nothing suggests otherwise as you claimed it is. The only one of the yonkou that does not show interest in the title of PK is White Beard. Nothing has been said about the others. The purpose of Kaidou attacking White Beard is also not given.
You claimed that nothing suggests that they compete with one another (which I never disagreed), but I can use the same principle and say that nothing suggests that she is weak. Being vain and carefree, as I said, does not manifest anything about one's power as far as one piece goes. The comparison to past plot pattern of fighting against crocodile is irrelevant as we do not know if Luffy will actually face Big Mom first before the other yonkou. He is having a verbal challenge against Big Mom, but that doesnt mean he will encounter and fight her first before the other yonkou. Remember how Roro clashed with Mihawk way early in the manga? Does that mean that he confronted Mihawk again right when they enter Grand Line?
My biggest problem with your posts is that you requires evidence from others but do not use the same principle for your speculations. You are so certain of your prediction in which you have no evidence as it is too early to make any solid assumption. No hint in the manga points toward her being weaker. I highly respect your opinion as it may turn out to be very correct, but be so certain of it is simply not prudent.
Last edited by nguqua; December 27, 2011 at 08:00 PM.
The way I see it there are two things which we have to consider when it comes to a yonko. The first is personal strength. This is important as making a name for yourself is unlikely without this however I personally don't think this is the sole determinant factor when it comes to being a yonko. Big mom is definitely insanely strong, that much is clear however based on what we have seen it is not a fact that she is as strong or stronger than anyone in particular. For me the determinant factor when it comes to being a yonko is something different. I would think that what makes you or destroys you as a yonko is the people and the strength of the people that follow you. All yonko invariably have powerful crews behind them and a number of particularly strong people with them. Gathering strong people is not easy in the least as they are in itself rare and their influence great. Take aokiji, his loss was considered in itself an entire tangible fraction of the power of the world government. The great war which just took place was at large not decided by great military strategy and numbers but rather the individual actions of very few men (the admirals and commanders who fought each other, BBs crew, the many new world pirates and commanders who made damn sure luffy didn't get stomped by people of mediocre power). BB went to nothing but outright INSANE extremes to gather a crew of insanely strong pirates to say the least. In this regard, a yonko needs as much strength as is required to control a given crew of people of enough strength to be feared in the new world. The trick is to gather an actual crew with actual strength to follow you and around that crew gather allies which will be loyal enough to give you control over a piece of land. IMO it would not be strange that there are people out there with a decent bit of strength but have failed to build a crew with enough powerful crewmembers and gathered allies around them.
Lets take the sunny pirates in this context. Jinbe was without a doubt insanely strong (we even saw him giving arlong a beating although that is perhaps not quite an accomplishment) and tiger gave a fight to a VA and apparently elite marines. However, they were the only strong people there, the third in command would have been arlong who would have been fodder in the grand scheme of things even if he had been several times stronger than what he was. With the members it had there never was much of a chance to do anything in itself great among great pirates, they simply did not have the manpower to aspire to more.
Interestingly, based on what I have written it would seem luffy already meets the requirements to be a yonko in many ways. Luffy has already gathered a highly capable crew around him and it would not be strange in the least that each individual member of the monster trio would be strong enough to at least give an admiral a run for his money. Franky and brook should be relevant fighters in this regard as well although not necessarily enough to give someone like an admiral a run for his money. Ussop or chopper are certainly not up there but with their abilities they are at least strong enough to be feared. More so, luffy has already gathered allies of some worth. The WB pirates or its remmants are at least luffy's allies, jinbe is of some worth and he would certainly go to any lengths to help luffy, the 30000 pirates luffy just freed have a huge debt towards luffy.
Putting aside the necessary factors to be considered a Yonkou, I think considering Big mom weaker than the other Yonkou is plain dumb, it can obviously happen, but there's absolutely no evidence of it and to be honest,it goes against the natural order of things in the One Piece universe, aside from Buggy who is a character used mostly for comic reasons, every leader of an organization is usually the strongest one in it aswell, so Big mom should be no exception, considering she secured herself the position of Yonkou for apparently several years now, she commands a very powerful entity and is surely the strongest among that very same entity.
I honestly think people have been mistaken by the fact that such a frontal declaration of war was made so soon on a yonkou, so people naturally assume that considering luffy will still improve during his adventure and the first major appearence was made by Big Mom, she must be weaker than the other yonkou, who have been hyped to be some of the last encounters of luffy (considering BB the final antagonist and Shanks the one who indicates that luffy fulfilled his dream), but we dont know exactly when will luffy encounter Charlotte so that's a wrong assumption IMO.
I even think there's more evidence of Big Mom being a powerhouse than the opposite! She was the first Yonkou who had a relation with her crew that seemed mostly based on fear, they probably respect her and all, but both Shanks and WB had their crews seing them as not only a leader but an inspiration of some sort, while Charlotte was mostly shown as a tyrant, so to be feared by most of her crew,and considering we're talking about a crew who is considered on pair with the strongest of the strongest,she MUST be strong.
I doubt Luffy can take a Yonkou yet! Especially because she must have guys of Marco and Jozu caliber in her crew.... But if Luffy takes his time and defeat those kind of subordinates first.... Maybe if she is really Lola's mom (which I doubt now) the fight will stop in the middle, saving Luffy.
My prediction is that Luffy will meet someone who hates BIG MOM to death(because its been shown that she can do crazy thing about candy and she might have kill a lot of innocent people).and maybe this person might have trained all his life to kill BIG MOM and so he will make an ally of Luffy and help him take down BIG MOM.
let's put this in basic math people. i know we're all excited Luffy and Co. displayed some new abilities and can't wait to see the fruit of their training, but you can't let those hopes get the best of your sanity. Big Mum is a Yonkou, which immediately means she's crazy powerful. She has to be on par with WB, Shanks, and Kaidou. If she was on Luffy's level she would not have lasted ever as a Yonkou; the title would have been bequeathed years before. to explain this point lets put it in simple math:
1 >= The probability of pirates in the New World that are stronger than Luffy and/or his crewmates >> 0
That simple. It's certain there are lots of pirates stronger than the Strawhats currently are, so how come none of them decided to usurp BM's title?
Also, considering your last paragraph, I disagree. There's nothing indicating that Luffy is strong enough to take on a yonkou or admiral much less zoro and sanji. In my personal opinion, I doubt they are anywhere near admiral levels yet.
And since when Admirals are equal to Yonkou ? Heck, since when Yonkou are all equal ?
I don't get you guys, you always bring out that the argument " Ohh Yonkou are equal, or else another Yonkou will take her place ". You guys imply that Yonkou are interested into taking out each other while all the signs shows otherwise. WB was not interested, Shanks isn't, Kaidou isn't either or else he wouldn't have tried to stop WB from going to the war, I mean come on guys ! BB is a wild factor and for the sake of the plot wouldn't take on a Yonkou for now.
What's making it impossible for Luffy to defeat Big Mam ? Didn't he defeat Crocodile even if all the odds were against him ? Did you even forget that he was trained by Rayleigh for 2 years and reached a level that would have taken him years to reach ?
Also what kind of stronger pirates are we talking about here guys ? The likes of Squardo ? Because besides the Yonkou, I ain't seeing any strong pirates here.
I really can't see any of the Yonkou (except Kaidou since we haven't seen him) pushing the Marines to gather all their warriors + Shichibukai the same way they did for WB. Don't forget, it's not only because of him havin 1,6K men + allies, but because he had the strongest Paramecia ever shown and could've taken Marineford if it wasn't for Ace being there. Let's not forget that he was the rival of Roger, something that no Yonkou can brag about it.
Big Mam is strong, no doubt it, Oda won't make her weak that's for sure, but is she strong like WB or Shanks ? Hell no.
She will get her ass kicked by Luffy soon, unlike SH's vs Baroque Works, Luffy didn't declare war on Crocodile for the first time, and underestimated them, and also because of the lack of intel thanks to Sanji's misleading, they managed to reach Alabasta, if he knew what really happenned, I bet they wouldn't be able to reach Alabasta.
But here, Big Mam decided to attack Luffy instead of FI, and Luffy decided to defy her, no way she'll keep sending small fries one after another, she'll definitely move her ass for him.
I also never made any comment, and in fact have clearly explained in my second post that this argument has nothing to do with suggesting each yonkou competing with one another. Additionally, nothing suggests, beside for WB, that the yonkou do not have the intention of competing with one another. The purpose of Kaidou attempting to attack WB is still unclear at this point. Making any assumption is simply immature at this point I'm afraid. There are many mysteries in One Piece's world, as well as Oda's habit of unpredictable plot twists, makes confrontation with Big Mam herself after entering New World an open question mark. Nothing suggests that He will face her before other yonkou. For all we know, we might get an arc like Skypiea where a super strong opponent faces Luffy who himself is entirely unknown, or a powerful enemy from the past that never quite made it to the yonkou title. Remember that Luffy vs Shiki was supposed to be an arc in itself in the new world but got turned into a movie instead.
This is atm my favo thread, but due to time problems I couldn't post and cant properly until new year. Regardless nguqua covered most of my thoughts already. I will make it short, if I can find time I will post a more detailed post with quotes from the Manga.
We have to ask ourself "how" the equation was established in the first place. Thinking about that we will notice that every one must have fought each other at one point. Garp said that there are three pirate crews on the lvl of WB, to come up with that statement, the Yonkou must have fought each other.
But not only the Yonko, the MHQ must have fought each individual Yonko, only after that the WG must have realized that they need outside help to face the pirate age, which are the appointed 7Gods. After all the MHQ is facing every pirate on sea, not only those in the NW.
It doesn't matter if each have their own goal, they are pirates and marines on the sea, this is a shounen manga, obviously they must have fought each other. Not to mention in the manga there are many indications that they faced each on a battlefield.
As for Big Mom, I would be lying if I would say she seems strong. Also since pirate crews fights their battle as armies, you would expect her to be a mid-tier fighter, but with a enormous crew+alliance power. However she mentioned Garp! She is a pirate, he was a active marine and as long they didn't had a romance going on, the only logical relationship both could have had would be a fighting relationship. For that reason I believe she is indeed strong. Nonetheless, she seems to be a failed/disappointing character.
About yonkous been equals to admirals in strength:
I can’t an see a admiral in the same league of power. Against Whitebeard there were officially three of them and two in the same league (Garp and Sengoku, as was implicated), and just one was close enough to kill Whitebeard (Sakazuki, who took almost half of Whitebeard’s head) and still loosed to the old man. I really can’t see Borsalino or Sakazuki wining a fight against Shanks, Big Mom or Blackbeard.
Now, @ Zehahaha:
Where you can prove that Shanks, Kaidou, Big Mom or Blackbeard aren’t interested in their counterparts’ territory? Do you have any manga references?
You say that it’ll be just like Arabasta Arc, Luffy will win against the odds again. Remember that he just won in his third fight and if Crocodile have fought him more serious in their first fight, Luffy would have died 100% for sure. I don’t doubt he will won against Big Mom if she is truly a villain because he is the dam protagonist! There won’t be any other Mangellan in this series, the only antagonist that Luffy never managed to win.
This fight must be saved for Late. If it’ll happen in the next year, Luffy will an yonkou level guy. There won’t be much of objectives left for him that aren’t related to be Piarete King, and there won’t be much enemies that I’ll try fight him directly.
Last edited by Sakazuki; December 30, 2011 at 11:11 AM.
Seriously I can't stand this narrow minded logic. Yonko Admiral whatever, both ranks are high tier. A Level in which everyone is close in power range. And to be absolute fair, it hasn't been even confirmed that Kaido and Big Mom are high tier fighter, not that Im questioning that.
As for the marineford-war if you reread the fights, you will notice most of it was plot circumstantial. Same case with Crocodile Luffy. It was PIS.
Last edited by BlackHair; December 30, 2011 at 11:05 AM.