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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
I don't see Hysteria would win against pretty much most of the other AOs, sure she has speed, but her attack and defence just suck. Under normal circumstances fighting organisation warriors, she would definately win in time. The only way Miria and Co. were able to beat her was by putting her between two AO that were already fighting each other.
In the luciella vs. Isley fight (which we didn't really get to see much of) we can't be entirely certain of how it finished. Clearly luciella was in retreat, forced back to her human form, but if rafaela had not found her soon after, I get the impression that she would have gone off to regenerate and bide her time. We also don't know whether the fight towards the end was close but luciella felt the true presence of pricilla (as riful did) and that is why she chose to escape as fast as possible. The fight also did not show luciella's regenerative ability. If they were close or similar to cassandra's then I would place these two AOs as some of the most powerful of the group, purely due to the fact that the tend to eat most other attacks and in cassie's case, can regenerate so fast.
If Cassie were faced with a claymore or AO with better yoki sensing abilies, paired with pwning sword-techniques like Alicia's or the quick sword technique, I think she would be shredded past regenerating (which as a quiet aside, I think is why Yagi has given Clare the quick-sword and windcutter techniques in prep for her fight against pricilla).
I don't really know who I'd rank as the top AO though, too much you don't get to see in some of the fights and as someone else has previously stated, each fight seems to be determined by the match of skills / powers, setting and the outcome Yagi requires. I really view the new three ZAOs as filler material and nothing more. Whether Cassie will play a defining future part .. meh, who knows. I'm still bummed that Riful was killed off so easily, I still think she was one of the most interesting AOs to date.
If only Yagi would create a universe in which Teresa didn't die and fought Pricilla as awakened beings!
Sorry for anybody who may have been waiting on me to reply to anything – I've been very sick in bed these past two days with a stomach virus and without much interest in doing much of anything.
Malak, calm the hell down please.Originally Posted by Malak
Again, I'm not getting the real impression you actually read what I wrote since I tried to express every single possibility I could think of to arrive at what I think is the most likely answer, objectively – unfortunately, such a thing is very difficult with this because I don't think you can give an explanation without actually giving your own subjective point-of-view on things.
What does he have to fear by two Abyssals joining forces together now that he has Priscilla? Again, if you're arguing whether or not his strategy was stupid, then yes, I can agree...we can come up with all sorts of better strategies that he could have take to completely arrive at a better outcome, the same way we rip into Miria's strategies all the time and, say, argue that she should have simply left Pieta with all the warriors instead of trying to fight them all off.
But that's all beside the point Malak....we're not hear to argue what Isley should or shouldn't have done – we're hear to analyze what he DID too and try to understand “why”, and that's what I've tried to do....we can spend X amount of time thinking of better strategies he could have done, but it would be moot in the end because it wouldn't change what actually did take place in the story.
As for Riful and Luciella joining forces, then yes, it would be in their best interests considering they are both seemingly under the assumption that, if they did, they could beat Priscilla....however, I already went into why he may have not tried to chase after her if he could, and I feel there is enough visual indication that he didn't fight as well as he could have....plus, as far as he knows, Luciella is not the type to join up with anybody since that's plainly what she said and, as far as we know, that's the truth – unlike Riful who wants to 'make friends', Luciella had no allies or comrades of any sort whatsoever...if you're arguing that letting her go would have been a mistake because she would have joined up with Riful, then, given her personality, he couldn't be blamed for thinking she wouldn't bother....and even if she did, what difference would it make compared to Priscilla? Either way, it's no skin off his back.
I'm not saying it's NOT a possibility....I'm just not placing too much into it until we've gotten more evidence – like GEG said, it's just speculation at this point.Originally Posted by littleangel
Unless I'm mistaken however, where did you get the idea that Raciella wasn't self-sustaining? I can understand the HellCats and what is “sprouted” from her not having their own source of energy and dying off naturally in time, but I don't remember anything saying that Raciella herself was also living on borrowed time. If there is something in the manga that actually says this, then the speculation definitely has more merit to it.
As for Raciella's name, that's just the name I prefer to use since it was the first name we ever heard from her – old habits, what can I say.
Ah no offense there shieky but go re-read the chap Isley (and Riful in the follow up) explicitly stated that he did what he did to prevent a Riful x Luciella vs Priscilla since they just 'might' have stood a chance against her and he wanted to smash that only chance they had from the getgo, it is the very reason he attacked Luciella in the first placeQuote:
given what we have seen from Priscilla since then maybe that was being overly careful - but at the time that undoubtedly was his motivation and Riful immediately understood what he had done - that famous angry glare face of hers while saying "that woman is far stronger than us" - she has it because she realized precisley THIS was Isley's plan all along ...
anyways, hope you get over your cassy style inconveniences soon
Last edited by haegar; June 17, 2012 at 04:44 PM.
My core point with the Northern Campaign, is that everything turned out exactly the way Isley intended it too....we could argue if it was a good strategy or not, but that's beside the point - it turned out the way he intended it too, and I'm trying to understand why and rationalize that over what he should have done instead.
As for why he chose to go after Luciella, you also need to keep in mind that he promised to take Priscilla to the South to find her family...now, obviously, how much that promise was of importance to him or had effect in choosing to aim for the South is another thing entirely, but the point is, as with other things I brought up (like if he told Priscilla to attack Riful), their was only so much he could stretch his relationship with Priscilla before it fell apart...it's one thing to ally with this man in hopes of her finding her family, it's another for him to ask her to kill people she's never even met before seemingly as part of that.
Haeger, like I said in my original post on this to Gooral....their is only so many coincidences a person can take - we know Isley is a strong manipulator, if not a flawless one, and trying to argue what he should and shouldn't have done is pointless...I'm trying to simply make sense of what happened and that's why I feel everything I've written.
Ugh, thanks....believe me, I can understand how Cassandra feels >_<
Last edited by Shiek927; June 17, 2012 at 06:02 PM.
i would have loved isley to mention what he had planned for rigaldo before he snapped...he may have had rigaldo be part of the group that attacked the org.
but,it would have been cool to see him fight riful and dauf...
i don't know...you guys' convo got me thinking about rigaldo and how he was so obediant towards isley.
i know he was someone strong for the girls growth(especially clare)...but what if...right(shrugs)
I'll say again, what we know now matters not, what matters is what Isley knew, or believed to know at the time insofar as we can deduce it from his words to Riful and her reactionQuote:
(hint: quote Horsey: "manical laugh: It's to late ... everything.. all of it too late. My objective was already complete the second I entered the fight with Luciella. [blah blah no matter how many awakends blah blah] no one can kill priscilla NOW." *insert Riful rageface here*
quote Noodles: "if there was even a little chance to defeat that woman it was a power that surpasses abyssal ones. in other words there was no way but for me and luciella to team up and defeat her. Anticipating this Isley made the first move."
Now, granted this is Riful's version, but we get a flashback and Isley's no one can kill priscilla NOW corobates exactly what riful assumes as his reasoning.)
hence, forgive me for being blunt: end of story - if logic intended to be part of story.
get some rest you should - your posts it might do good
*ducks and runs*
Last edited by haegar; June 17, 2012 at 06:29 PM.
I think the most powerful is Cassandra. She is like a bullied kid who gets crazy, buys some guns and kills everyone.
I think Isley would not prevent the alliance of Riful and Luciela. Is common sense, if he thought that these two could beat both together Priscilla, if he fought alongside Prisicilla, the two abysmal have nothing to do. Avoid an alliance does not make sense, if he always stay with Priscilla.
What he wanted was to restore the mental stability to Priscilla because she was currently unstable.
(Remember that in his fight with Isley, he could kill her because she reacted too late). He used the clash of two abysmal yoki to recover awareness of Priscilla, because an unstable priscila (even stronger) could be overcome by Riful or Luciela due to her mental instability .
If we remember the words Isley told Riful, then everything fits, "Now no one can beat Priscilla" This clearly indicates that even a few hours before, she did could be overcome, but after the abysmal fight anyone could beat Pricilla
Whether Isley fought with all his might against Luciela, I think so. The last sentence he said, clearly demonstrated that he wanted to kill her, but could not. And if he wanted to kill her, obviously had to use all its power, otherwise it would not make sense.
In addition, at that time, Yagi showed little his fight and had not even thought of the sword. The battle with the devouring, I think it was when it was invented to make fanservice.
Last edited by su5so; June 18, 2012 at 02:09 AM.
assuming he was running under the logic of "two abyssals might get prissy down", sure he would smash one of them - it is a precautionary measure - who knows, maybe they could come up with some scheme to temporarily separate him and Prissy as long as they are side by side all is fine but if he wanted to secure Prissy's position he would follow through to destroy the chance of anything like this ever happening. This whole plot of his he executed also had some sort of psychological angle as with it he kind of rubbed it in that as things are they stand no chance. He proved himself to be marginally stronger or at the least equal to Luciella while at the same time getting his point across to Riful (granted, that backfired as she came up with the destroyer plan later) On why I read things this way: Yagi sometimes likes to leave things wide open for specualtion, but here he actually went to the trouble to give us a flashback of that meeting and add Riful's reasoning to explain further so I am inclined to take that at face value. In a way he also made use of the old 3AO plot line to introduce the new SAO on level with Prissy as the outcome of this whole scheme of his eventually cumulated in Riful raising the destroyer. So I fell it all adds up fairly well and personally don't see the need to speculate deeper on this - I admit the notion of him doing what he did to appease Priscilla's whishes and thus keep her by his side has some merit, but that does not void the above points, it is achieving two objectives at the same time ...
Shiek, first I have to say that I didn't mean that the destroyer has like 10 days to die or something, I meant it like she needs a source of power to survive just like any living creature and since she awakened she needs more now to keep her powers as is but now there is no source of power I don't know how they will survive unless what is done is the same as what Raphaela did with Lucilla which is not understood even for us as how they are alive all this time, and even when Clare tried to free her, Raphaela awakened!
Plus priscilla said that the destroyer had no desire for meat and didn't have any memomeries or emotions left. So it doesn't feed, but it constantly releases yoki. So eventually if it didn't absorb someone else's yoki it would run out of energy.Quote:
Haeger haeger haeger......just because the characters at large, and so we the readers, thought a certain way at the time, doesn't change the fact it was always like that since the very beginning or that other characters actually knew the truth. The revelations behind the DoDs and Yoma being infected humans...we only learned them very recently but they've been around for hundreds of years.Quote:
Isley is one of those people - your argument is that he was being overly-careful or that, put simply, didn't know Priscilla's actual potential...I say otherwise however - he knew her potential because he fought her himself and was damaged by her in a single blow; he knows what she's capable of better then most.
Your argument is semantics and picking apart what he said; that maybe he didn't know at the time, but he somehow knew then and there talking with Riful....how? that doesn't make sense - what happened at that exact moment to, if this is you reasoning, make him understand Priscilla's true potential?
What? because Riful was scared of her and walked away? that still doesn't say much....Riful responded by saying that she was stronger then both herself and Dauf - their is nothing, going with semantics the same way, that says she still couldn't have been able to beat her if she allied with Luciella.
Plus, we have to remember Priscilla's style....her natural suppresion abilities, her conservative way of fighting....indeed, it would make sense if Isley didn't indeed know her true power -- it takes an Eye physical contact to even sense her powers, after all (when they are suppressed)....again however, what happened during that situation to suddenly make Isley realize her true power if he was only being overly-careful before? She was touching his shoulder...you can argue that he was sensing her real power then, but again, it took an Eye physical contact to sense anything from her at all....being an Abyssal doesn't really count either -- Riful is a fantastic sensor, but she isn't perfect and their are those better then her in individual areas...
My personal reasoning is that, even if Isley never understood her true potential, he understood it better then most because, again, he actually fought against her....so even if he didn't know how far her power could go, he knew better then most, and certainly knew that Riful and Luciella joining forces wouldn't change anything....thus, he planned accordingly, and set up his information warfare with his false rumors as he began his war campaign.
roflmao, I basically said the same thing at one point....While I won't argue for or against her being the most powerful, I do agree with the expression - Awakening turned her from a meek girl to someone who brings a gun to school...a fairly common thing. Of course, mind you, she hasn't 'changed' and is still the meek girl she ever was....this is more of a surface manifistation then anything else.Quote:
Oh, I see, I didn't understand you.Quote:
*shrug, well, I don't know...time will tell - it's a sensible speculation like anything else I suppose...I guess we'll see what happens.
Last edited by Shiek927; June 18, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
Shieky, I think one can make the argument that no one, not even Isley, truly understood Priscilla. While it is true Isley had a better understanding of Priscilla than anyone else, we have no evidence that he ever met Priscilla's adult personality nor did he understand what that would mean for her fighting prowess. To me, that makes a huge difference, especially in how Priscilla fights. It may be that Isley gauged Priscilla's fighting capability off of the infantile state that he found her in and not the adult personality that she became later. Hence, he believed Luciella+Riful could potentially be against a infant Priscilla, but that says nothing of av Priscilla armed with an adult personality.
I understand that this is a stretch, but I would compare the extra chapter and the 90s chapters up to the latest to show the difference between the infant and adult personalities of Priscilla. The reason is that I do not think Infantile Priscilla and Adult Priscilla are comparable in terms of power. I know that may be strange, but the way they fight does seem slightly different. Infantile Priscilla, defeated Isley with her Awakened form going crazy. Adult Priscilla killed Alicia and Beth in human form with her bare hands. After that, Adult Priscilla killed Riful, Dauf, a legion of Hellcats, Zombie Dauf, and then proceeded to one shot the Destroyer's form in one sitting. I think that there is a precision and a cruelty in Adult Priscilla that is not shown in Infantile Priscilla.
I do not think Isley, let alone anyone, could have understood what Priscilla would be like with an adult personality.
I would also make a parallel with Miata. She is insanely strong, but her mental problems hold her back from reaching her potential. I do not see Priscilla as being that much different.
Last edited by Nixl; June 18, 2012 at 03:23 PM.
No if miata has the power of a number one dose that mean she is going to be used to fight prissy(if she is released) or Cassandra (if something happens and miria and co. dont make it in time)....were would you rank her in power with everyone else...i say she is stronger then helen and deneve