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View Poll Results: Most Powerful AO

Voters
41. You may not vote on this poll
  • Alicia

    12 29.27%
  • Beth

    0 0%
  • Cassandra

    14 34.15%
  • Hysteria

    1 2.44%
  • Isley

    10 24.39%
  • Luciela

    1 2.44%
  • Riful

    2 4.88%
  • Rosemary

    1 2.44%
  • Roxanne

    0 0%
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Thread: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

  1. #46
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

    I don't see Hysteria would win against pretty much most of the other AOs, sure she has speed, but her attack and defence just suck. Under normal circumstances fighting organisation warriors, she would definately win in time. The only way Miria and Co. were able to beat her was by putting her between two AO that were already fighting each other.

    In the luciella vs. Isley fight (which we didn't really get to see much of) we can't be entirely certain of how it finished. Clearly luciella was in retreat, forced back to her human form, but if rafaela had not found her soon after, I get the impression that she would have gone off to regenerate and bide her time. We also don't know whether the fight towards the end was close but luciella felt the true presence of pricilla (as riful did) and that is why she chose to escape as fast as possible. The fight also did not show luciella's regenerative ability. If they were close or similar to cassandra's then I would place these two AOs as some of the most powerful of the group, purely due to the fact that the tend to eat most other attacks and in cassie's case, can regenerate so fast.

    If Cassie were faced with a claymore or AO with better yoki sensing abilies, paired with pwning sword-techniques like Alicia's or the quick sword technique, I think she would be shredded past regenerating (which as a quiet aside, I think is why Yagi has given Clare the quick-sword and windcutter techniques in prep for her fight against pricilla).

    I don't really know who I'd rank as the top AO though, too much you don't get to see in some of the fights and as someone else has previously stated, each fight seems to be determined by the match of skills / powers, setting and the outcome Yagi requires. I really view the new three ZAOs as filler material and nothing more. Whether Cassie will play a defining future part .. meh, who knows. I'm still bummed that Riful was killed off so easily, I still think she was one of the most interesting AOs to date.

    If only Yagi would create a universe in which Teresa didn't die and fought Pricilla as awakened beings!

  2. #47
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shiek927's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 127 Discussion / 128 Predictions

    Sorry for anybody who may have been waiting on me to reply to anything – I've been very sick in bed these past two days with a stomach virus and without much interest in doing much of anything.



    Quote Originally Posted by Malak
    .....about the second thing that you said instead i have to say that i read perfectly well that in your speculation Isley let Luciela escape on purpose,but sorry that's a very stupid speculation that has not even a little logic supporting it,especially since Isley himself made it clear that he wanted to KILL her.
    If you want to support that speculation you have at least to give a GOOD reason why letting Luciela escape at the end was a good thing for Isley,so far all you said on the matter doesn't make any sense.
    On the contrary,letting Luciela escape AFTER a mortal fight like that is COMPLETELY against Isley's interests since that would push even more the other 2 abyssals to join forces (especially since we have already seen that Luciela is not exactly the type that necessarily wants to have a personal revenge,infact as soon as she saw Raph she asked her to finish the job for her,lol.......so an alliance between Riful and Luciela would have been very probable).

    In conclusion,letting Luciela escape would have been a 100% idiotic move from Isley pow.

    Also you should note that when Isley express his disappointment for not being able to finish her off, HE IS ALONE!!! What do you think? That he was lying to himself?
    Please Shiek,open your eyes, this speculation of yours is weak as hell......
    ==
    Malak, calm the hell down please.

    Again, I'm not getting the real impression you actually read what I wrote since I tried to express every single possibility I could think of to arrive at what I think is the most likely answer, objectively – unfortunately, such a thing is very difficult with this because I don't think you can give an explanation without actually giving your own subjective point-of-view on things.

    What does he have to fear by two Abyssals joining forces together now that he has Priscilla? Again, if you're arguing whether or not his strategy was stupid, then yes, I can agree...we can come up with all sorts of better strategies that he could have take to completely arrive at a better outcome, the same way we rip into Miria's strategies all the time and, say, argue that she should have simply left Pieta with all the warriors instead of trying to fight them all off.

    But that's all beside the point Malak....we're not hear to argue what Isley should or shouldn't have done – we're hear to analyze what he DID too and try to understand “why”, and that's what I've tried to do....we can spend X amount of time thinking of better strategies he could have done, but it would be moot in the end because it wouldn't change what actually did take place in the story.

    As for Riful and Luciella joining forces, then yes, it would be in their best interests considering they are both seemingly under the assumption that, if they did, they could beat Priscilla....however, I already went into why he may have not tried to chase after her if he could, and I feel there is enough visual indication that he didn't fight as well as he could have....plus, as far as he knows, Luciella is not the type to join up with anybody since that's plainly what she said and, as far as we know, that's the truth – unlike Riful who wants to 'make friends', Luciella had no allies or comrades of any sort whatsoever...if you're arguing that letting her go would have been a mistake because she would have joined up with Riful, then, given her personality, he couldn't be blamed for thinking she wouldn't bother....and even if she did, what difference would it make compared to Priscilla? Either way, it's no skin off his back.

    ==

    Quote Originally Posted by littleangel
    Shiek, you have to admit that what Galatea has written is logical and quite possible even if no direct evidence is there, the principles of logic and possibilities are on Galatea's favor this time, because the Destroyer (which is the name that we have to use because Racilla was the name given at the time because she was nameless back then) is in principle just like Hellcats and as we have seen Deneve mentioning that it takes them half a day to stop moving and die (stop functioning) but we all know that the destroyer is actually way stronger than those (above AO's level) but losing power with every shot it shoots, and if she doesn't get a source of power she will lose even more power just to sustain living. So the idea of her to be sucking energy from Priscilla is quite possible and possibly not as much as we think, just enough to sustain the power levels so the barrier (the seal of the blob) would be unbroken by the difference in powers.
    I'm not saying it's NOT a possibility....I'm just not placing too much into it until we've gotten more evidence – like GEG said, it's just speculation at this point.

    Unless I'm mistaken however, where did you get the idea that Raciella wasn't self-sustaining? I can understand the HellCats and what is “sprouted” from her not having their own source of energy and dying off naturally in time, but I don't remember anything saying that Raciella herself was also living on borrowed time. If there is something in the manga that actually says this, then the speculation definitely has more merit to it.

    As for Raciella's name, that's just the name I prefer to use since it was the first name we ever heard from her – old habits, what can I say.
    You know, there are as many ways to live as there are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look.

  3. #48
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member haegar's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 127 Discussion / 128 Predictions

    Quote Quote:
    What does he have to fear by two Abyssals joining forces together now that he has Priscilla?
    Ah no offense there shieky but go re-read the chap Isley (and Riful in the follow up) explicitly stated that he did what he did to prevent a Riful x Luciella vs Priscilla since they just 'might' have stood a chance against her and he wanted to smash that only chance they had from the getgo, it is the very reason he attacked Luciella in the first place

    given what we have seen from Priscilla since then maybe that was being overly careful - but at the time that undoubtedly was his motivation and Riful immediately understood what he had done - that famous angry glare face of hers while saying "that woman is far stronger than us" - she has it because she realized precisley THIS was Isley's plan all along ...

    anyways, hope you get over your cassy style inconveniences soon
    Last edited by haegar; June 17, 2012 at 04:44 PM.

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  5. #49
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shiek927's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 127 Discussion / 128 Predictions

    s
    Quote Originally Posted by haegar View Post
    Ah no offense there shieky but go re-read the chap Isley (and Riful in the follow up) explicitly stated that he did what he did to prevent a Riful x Luciella vs Priscilla since they just 'might' have stood a chance against her and he wanted to smash that only chance they had from the getgo, it is the very reason he attacked Luciella in the first place

    given what we have seen from Priscilla since then maybe that was being overly careful - but at the time that undoubtedly was his motivation and Riful immediately understood what he had done - that famous angry glare face of hers while saying "that woman is far stronger than us" - she has it because she realized precisley THIS was Isley's plan all along ...

    anyways, hope you get over your cassy style inconveniences soon
    I'll say again Haeger - we know for a fact that Riful and Luciella joining together would have truly meant nothing in the end; of course, going by what they, and we for that matter, knew at the time, of course it all seemed that way and was also why everything turned out the way it did in the end. You say he was being overly-careful, but the way I see it, is that he knew from the get-go how strong she was (he fought her after-all, so he would know better them most), which is why he deliberately planted the false rumors that she lost to him and that she could have been beaten by two Abyssals.

    My core point with the Northern Campaign, is that everything turned out exactly the way Isley intended it too....we could argue if it was a good strategy or not, but that's beside the point - it turned out the way he intended it too, and I'm trying to understand why and rationalize that over what he should have done instead.

    As for why he chose to go after Luciella, you also need to keep in mind that he promised to take Priscilla to the South to find her family...now, obviously, how much that promise was of importance to him or had effect in choosing to aim for the South is another thing entirely, but the point is, as with other things I brought up (like if he told Priscilla to attack Riful), their was only so much he could stretch his relationship with Priscilla before it fell apart...it's one thing to ally with this man in hopes of her finding her family, it's another for him to ask her to kill people she's never even met before seemingly as part of that.

    Haeger, like I said in my original post on this to Gooral....their is only so many coincidences a person can take - we know Isley is a strong manipulator, if not a flawless one, and trying to argue what he should and shouldn't have done is pointless...I'm trying to simply make sense of what happened and that's why I feel everything I've written.

    Ugh, thanks....believe me, I can understand how Cassandra feels >_<
    Last edited by Shiek927; June 17, 2012 at 06:02 PM.
    You know, there are as many ways to live as there are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look.

  6. #50
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Thumbs Up Re: Claymore 127 Discussion / 128 Predictions

    i would have loved isley to mention what he had planned for rigaldo before he snapped...he may have had rigaldo be part of the group that attacked the org.
    but,it would have been cool to see him fight riful and dauf...
    i don't know...you guys' convo got me thinking about rigaldo and how he was so obediant towards isley.
    i know he was someone strong for the girls growth(especially clare)...but what if...right(shrugs)

  7. #51
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member haegar's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 127 Discussion / 128 Predictions

    Quote Quote:
    I'll say again Haeger - we know for a fact that Riful and Luciella joining together would have truly meant nothing in the end
    I'll say again, what we know now matters not, what matters is what Isley knew, or believed to know at the time insofar as we can deduce it from his words to Riful and her reaction
    (hint: quote Horsey: "manical laugh: It's to late ... everything.. all of it too late. My objective was already complete the second I entered the fight with Luciella. [blah blah no matter how many awakends blah blah] no one can kill priscilla NOW." *insert Riful rageface here*
    quote Noodles: "if there was even a little chance to defeat that woman it was a power that surpasses abyssal ones. in other words there was no way but for me and luciella to team up and defeat her. Anticipating this Isley made the first move."

    Now, granted this is Riful's version, but we get a flashback and Isley's no one can kill priscilla NOW corobates exactly what riful assumes as his reasoning.)


    hence, forgive me for being blunt: end of story - if logic intended to be part of story.

    get some rest you should - your posts it might do good

    *ducks and runs*
    Last edited by haegar; June 17, 2012 at 06:29 PM.

  8. #52
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    Re: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

    I think the most powerful is Cassandra. She is like a bullied kid who gets crazy, buys some guns and kills everyone.

  9. #53
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member serpico's Avatar
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    Re: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by SaphG1 View Post
    Hard for me to say on this one. I do not consider Rosemary an AO, because it isn't just the requirment of having the numerical demonination of the number one given to you by the organization, but also you need a certain level of power before you awaken to really be an Abyssal one. Rosemary was more on par with Rigardo and Agatha then an Abyssal one like Isley or Riful. Likewise the Destroyer is on par with Priscilla and well beyond an Abyssal one in power so i don't count it amongst the list.

    I think that power wise it's too difficult to say, these are all creatures that stalemate one another, if there were any pure defining power between them there such stalemates would not have existed, but because they are comparable fighting head to head makes them even enough that both side have to worry about losing.

    If i were giving awards though...

    Riful is awarded most Versatile body
    Isley is awarded best offensive ability
    Luciela is awarded most unique offense/defensive ability (Luciela is also awarded Fanfic awakened kittens with Rigardo, cat's unite!)
    Beth is awarded an A for effort
    Alicia is awarded most destructive single target attack
    Hysteria is awarded the title of fastest Abyssal one
    Cassandra is awarded the title most agile Abyssal one
    Roxanne is is awarded the the meanest bit*ch trophy (because sometimes being a mean chick really does work out)
    Say that Rosemary is not an abissal because she lost against teresa is not just
    Because teresa was awesome powerful - while isley does a poorly performance -
    Against Helen he was unable to Dodge Helen slow motion attack
    .

  10. #54
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    Re: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

    I think Isley would not prevent the alliance of Riful and Luciela. Is common sense, if he thought that these two could beat both together Priscilla, if he fought alongside Prisicilla, the two abysmal have nothing to do. Avoid an alliance does not make sense, if he always stay with Priscilla.
    What he wanted was to restore the mental stability to Priscilla because she was currently unstable.
    (Remember that in his fight with Isley, he could kill her because she reacted too late). He used the clash of two abysmal yoki to recover awareness of Priscilla, because an unstable priscila (even stronger) could be overcome by Riful or Luciela due to her mental instability .
    If we remember the words Isley told Riful, then everything fits, "Now no one can beat Priscilla" This clearly indicates that even a few hours before, she did could be overcome, but after the abysmal fight anyone could beat Pricilla

    Whether Isley fought with all his might against Luciela, I think so. The last sentence he said, clearly demonstrated that he wanted to kill her, but could not. And if he wanted to kill her, obviously had to use all its power, otherwise it would not make sense.
    In addition, at that time, Yagi showed little his fight and had not even thought of the sword. The battle with the devouring, I think it was when it was invented to make fanservice.
    Last edited by su5so; June 18, 2012 at 02:09 AM.

  11. #55
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member haegar's Avatar
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    Re: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

    assuming he was running under the logic of "two abyssals might get prissy down", sure he would smash one of them - it is a precautionary measure - who knows, maybe they could come up with some scheme to temporarily separate him and Prissy as long as they are side by side all is fine but if he wanted to secure Prissy's position he would follow through to destroy the chance of anything like this ever happening. This whole plot of his he executed also had some sort of psychological angle as with it he kind of rubbed it in that as things are they stand no chance. He proved himself to be marginally stronger or at the least equal to Luciella while at the same time getting his point across to Riful (granted, that backfired as she came up with the destroyer plan later) On why I read things this way: Yagi sometimes likes to leave things wide open for specualtion, but here he actually went to the trouble to give us a flashback of that meeting and add Riful's reasoning to explain further so I am inclined to take that at face value. In a way he also made use of the old 3AO plot line to introduce the new SAO on level with Prissy as the outcome of this whole scheme of his eventually cumulated in Riful raising the destroyer. So I fell it all adds up fairly well and personally don't see the need to speculate deeper on this - I admit the notion of him doing what he did to appease Priscilla's whishes and thus keep her by his side has some merit, but that does not void the above points, it is achieving two objectives at the same time ...

  12. #56
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member littleangel's Avatar
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    Re: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

    Shiek, first I have to say that I didn't mean that the destroyer has like 10 days to die or something, I meant it like she needs a source of power to survive just like any living creature and since she awakened she needs more now to keep her powers as is but now there is no source of power I don't know how they will survive unless what is done is the same as what Raphaela did with Lucilla which is not understood even for us as how they are alive all this time, and even when Clare tried to free her, Raphaela awakened!

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  14. #57
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Claymore1's Avatar
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    Re: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

    Quote Quote:
    Shiek, first I have to say that I didn't mean that the destroyer has like 10 days to die or something, I meant it like she needs a source of power to survive just like any living creature
    Plus priscilla said that the destroyer had no desire for meat and didn't have any memomeries or emotions left. So it doesn't feed, but it constantly releases yoki. So eventually if it didn't absorb someone else's yoki it would run out of energy.

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  16. #58
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shiek927's Avatar
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    Re: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

    Quote Quote:
    I'll say again, what we know now matters not, what matters is what Isley knew, or believed to know at the time insofar as we can deduce it from his words to Riful and her reaction
    (hint: quote Horsey: "manical laugh: It's to late ... everything.. all of it too late. My objective was already complete the second I entered the fight with Luciella. [blah blah no matter how many awakends blah blah] no one can kill priscilla NOW." *insert Riful rageface here*
    quote Noodles: "if there was even a little chance to defeat that woman it was a power that surpasses abyssal ones. in other words there was no way but for me and luciella to team up and defeat her. Anticipating this Isley made the first move."

    Now, granted this is Riful's version, but we get a flashback and Isley's no one can kill priscilla NOW corobates exactly what riful assumes as his reasoning.)


    hence, forgive me for being blunt: end of story - if logic intended to be part of story.

    get some rest you should - your posts it might do good

    *ducks and runs*
    Haeger haeger haeger......just because the characters at large, and so we the readers, thought a certain way at the time, doesn't change the fact it was always like that since the very beginning or that other characters actually knew the truth. The revelations behind the DoDs and Yoma being infected humans...we only learned them very recently but they've been around for hundreds of years.

    Isley is one of those people - your argument is that he was being overly-careful or that, put simply, didn't know Priscilla's actual potential...I say otherwise however - he knew her potential because he fought her himself and was damaged by her in a single blow; he knows what she's capable of better then most.

    Your argument is semantics and picking apart what he said; that maybe he didn't know at the time, but he somehow knew then and there talking with Riful....how? that doesn't make sense - what happened at that exact moment to, if this is you reasoning, make him understand Priscilla's true potential?

    What? because Riful was scared of her and walked away? that still doesn't say much....Riful responded by saying that she was stronger then both herself and Dauf - their is nothing, going with semantics the same way, that says she still couldn't have been able to beat her if she allied with Luciella.

    Plus, we have to remember Priscilla's style....her natural suppresion abilities, her conservative way of fighting....indeed, it would make sense if Isley didn't indeed know her true power -- it takes an Eye physical contact to even sense her powers, after all (when they are suppressed)....again however, what happened during that situation to suddenly make Isley realize her true power if he was only being overly-careful before? She was touching his shoulder...you can argue that he was sensing her real power then, but again, it took an Eye physical contact to sense anything from her at all....being an Abyssal doesn't really count either -- Riful is a fantastic sensor, but she isn't perfect and their are those better then her in individual areas...

    My personal reasoning is that, even if Isley never understood her true potential, he understood it better then most because, again, he actually fought against her....so even if he didn't know how far her power could go, he knew better then most, and certainly knew that Riful and Luciella joining forces wouldn't change anything....thus, he planned accordingly, and set up his information warfare with his false rumors as he began his war campaign.

    Quote Quote:
    I think the most powerful is Cassandra. She is like a bullied kid who gets crazy, buys some guns and kills everyone.
    roflmao, I basically said the same thing at one point....While I won't argue for or against her being the most powerful, I do agree with the expression - Awakening turned her from a meek girl to someone who brings a gun to school...a fairly common thing. Of course, mind you, she hasn't 'changed' and is still the meek girl she ever was....this is more of a surface manifistation then anything else.

    Quote Quote:
    Shiek, first I have to say that I didn't mean that the destroyer has like 10 days to die or something, I meant it like she needs a source of power to survive just like any living creature and since she awakened she needs more now to keep her powers as is but now there is no source of power I don't know how they will survive unless what is done is the same as what Raphaela did with Lucilla which is not understood even for us as how they are alive all this time, and even when Clare tried to free her, Raphaela awakened!
    Oh, I see, I didn't understand you.

    *shrug, well, I don't know...time will tell - it's a sensible speculation like anything else I suppose...I guess we'll see what happens.
    Last edited by Shiek927; June 18, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
    You know, there are as many ways to live as there are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look.

  17. #59
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Nixl's Avatar
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    Re: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

    Shieky, I think one can make the argument that no one, not even Isley, truly understood Priscilla. While it is true Isley had a better understanding of Priscilla than anyone else, we have no evidence that he ever met Priscilla's adult personality nor did he understand what that would mean for her fighting prowess. To me, that makes a huge difference, especially in how Priscilla fights. It may be that Isley gauged Priscilla's fighting capability off of the infantile state that he found her in and not the adult personality that she became later. Hence, he believed Luciella+Riful could potentially be against a infant Priscilla, but that says nothing of av Priscilla armed with an adult personality.

    I understand that this is a stretch, but I would compare the extra chapter and the 90s chapters up to the latest to show the difference between the infant and adult personalities of Priscilla. The reason is that I do not think Infantile Priscilla and Adult Priscilla are comparable in terms of power. I know that may be strange, but the way they fight does seem slightly different. Infantile Priscilla, defeated Isley with her Awakened form going crazy. Adult Priscilla killed Alicia and Beth in human form with her bare hands. After that, Adult Priscilla killed Riful, Dauf, a legion of Hellcats, Zombie Dauf, and then proceeded to one shot the Destroyer's form in one sitting. I think that there is a precision and a cruelty in Adult Priscilla that is not shown in Infantile Priscilla.

    I do not think Isley, let alone anyone, could have understood what Priscilla would be like with an adult personality.

    I would also make a parallel with Miata. She is insanely strong, but her mental problems hold her back from reaching her potential. I do not see Priscilla as being that much different.
    Last edited by Nixl; June 18, 2012 at 03:23 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member number12michael's Avatar
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    Re: The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread (Spoiler Warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
    Shieky, I think one can make the argument that no one, not even Isley, truly understood Priscilla. While it is true Isley had a better understanding of Priscilla than anyone else, we have no evidence that he ever met Priscilla's adult personality nor did he understand what that would mean for her fighting prowess. To me, that makes a huge difference, especially in how Priscilla fights. It may be that Isley gauged Priscilla's fighting capability off of the infantile state that he found her in and not the adult personality that she became later. Hence, he believed Luciella+Riful could potentially be against a infant Priscilla, but that says nothing of av Priscilla armed with an adult personality.

    I understand that this is a stretch, but I would compare the extra chapter and the 90s chapters up to the latest to show the difference between the infant and adult personalities of Priscilla. The reason is that I do not think Infantile Priscilla and Adult Priscilla are comparable in terms of power. I know that may be strange, but the way they fight does seem slightly different. Infantile Priscilla, defeated Isley with her Awakened form going crazy. Adult Priscilla killed Alicia and Beth in human form with her bare hands. After that, Adult Priscilla killed Riful, Dauf, a legion of Hellcats, Zombie Dauf, and then proceeded to one shot the Destroyer's form in one sitting. I think that there is a precision and a cruelty in Adult Priscilla that is not shown in Infantile Priscilla.

    I do not think Isley, let alone anyone, could have understood what Priscilla would be like with an adult personality.

    I would also make a parallel with Miata. She is insanely strong, but her mental problems hold her back from reaching her potential. I do not see Priscilla as being that much different.
    he has met her adult persona...when he confronted her in the north....she commented on the fact that he was "big". during there fight is when she slipped into the little girl with no memories(of awakening) and thinks she is looking for her family..

    No if miata has the power of a number one dose that mean she is going to be used to fight prissy(if she is released) or Cassandra (if something happens and miria and co. dont make it in time)....were would you rank her in power with everyone else...i say she is stronger then helen and deneve

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