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Thread: Miria The New protagonist?

  1. #16
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member wickedsmile's Avatar
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    Green Grin Re: Miria The New protagonist?

    I'm not sure where some of you see such a great evil within Clare. While Miria has become the figurehead as of late, the story began with Clare and it will end with her as well. To characterize Clare as a psychopath is completely inaccurate. A psychopath as individual who does not have any realization or grasp of ethics or morality. Their actions are self serving regardless of the impact it causes to others and more over, without remorse.

    HK and I discussed Clare at length and in fact there is a compendium thread on our currently MIA heroine. She's a deeply disturbed individual. Monsters killed her family and tortured her for their amusement. Just as she emerged from the depth of despair, fate plunged her back deep into the abyss of agony. If I ever saw my mother decapitated in front of me, I doubt I would have handled the event with the convictions that she portrayed.

    Clare always thinks of herself as a monster. Of course because she has taken Yoma flesh within but also because of the anger and hatred she harbors within herself. However, if you look at the entire Manga, our little monster has proven time over that she is not the fiend that she believes she is. She saved Raki. She saved Helen, Deneve and Miria. She set aside her own quest to save Jean and ended up saving Galatea whom the Organization had sent to capture or kill. In Pieta, she nearly awoke to save the task force. Monsters simply don't make the deep bonds that she has with the other warriors. She has demonstrated repeatedly a warmth, a kindness and a selfishness that is worthy of saint hood. To paraphrase Tuvok from Star Trek, she has reaffirmed her humanity and with emphasis.

    I 100% agree with HK. Clare tortures herself and is obsessed with killing Priscilla (I still don't think she hates herself but certainly their's a large degree of guilt). It's far removed from being a psychopath.

    Clare!! Where are you? The Ghosts need you. Raki REALLY NEEDS YOU!! Heck, even Rubel misses you!!!
    I don't want to die. Even if that makeshift family was all nothing more than an illusion, doomed to someday fall apart. I so wish, so wish, it could have lasted the tiniest bit longer. - Norihiro Yagi

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  3. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Miria The New protagonist?

    A quick comment about Galatea:

    I think her character, pragmatism, is due to the fact that she canYoki Sense....

    EMOTIONS

    she can "feel-sense-hear-see-know" the Emotions of others... I'm sure you've seen a movie where a character can "hear" other peoples' thoughts, and if they're lucky, it doesn't drive them crazy. Galatea, likely has become apathetic-pragmatist, due to being drowned in Sensing the emotions of others all around her, by "hearing" all these Emotions (or thoughts like my movie example), you start to see how trivial and petty people are, as well as their emotions (and/or thoughts). Galatea has already experienced all the emotions that there are, so has no need to re-do these emotions via her self having these same emotions which she has already experienced from others via being able to Yoki Sense those emotions of others.

    --------------------------------

    About Clare:

    Clare is a good person, and that is what she hates most of all and which she can never forgive, her own "weak" (caring-soft-kind) heart. How can Clare claim to love Teresa, when she couldn't feel any "ill-will" towards Priscilla, as Priscilla murdered her beloved Teresa before her eyes.

    Think of it like this:

    You're a Father or a Mother, and someone rapes and murders your precious daughter before your eyes, yet you feel no malice towards the rapist-murderer. Thus, how can you claim to love your daughter? This is Clare's despair, her pain, her hate, her unforgiveness: HERSELF.

    imagine being this guy (Dr. Petit), and not have any feelings of wanting to tear to shreds the two evil people who had done this:

    http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/...t_invasion.htm
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2...horrific-loss/
    http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...ily/index.html
    etc... (just google Dr. Petit)

    (If you're not feeling any rage+malice, there's something wrong with you! This is the same with Clare. There's something wrong with Clare, as she was unable to feel any rage+malice towards Priscilla, it's the greatest insult to her beloved Teresa, which she can never forgive herself for)
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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  5. #18
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member faintsmile1992's Avatar
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    Re: Miria The New protagonist?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsmile View Post
    I'm not sure where some of you see such a great evil within Clare. While Miria has become the figurehead as of late, the story began with Clare and it will end with her as well.
    She's not 'evil', she's just 'not good' without being either a villain protagonist or an antihero. She's just a survivalist out for revenge and out to find Raki.

    You're own assumption that we're saying she's evil implies that you yourself recognise her as one of a character type who's normally a villain or an antihero.

    Quote Quote:
    To characterize Clare as a psychopath is completely inaccurate. A psychopath as individual who does not have any realization or grasp of ethics or morality. Their actions are self serving regardless of the impact it causes to others and more over, without remorse.
    If you define psychopath by the Hollywood version lol. In real life where monsters don't exist, its a lot like autism. Indeed that last sentence you wrote describes autism very well, if you rephrase it differently.

    Look at the definition of 'nomadic antisocial' in the top left, and tell me this isn't an accurate description of Clare lol.



    Quote Quote:
    HK and I discussed Clare at length and in fact there is a compendium thread on our currently MIA heroine. She's a deeply disturbed individual. Monsters killed her family and tortured her for their amusement. Just as she emerged from the depth of despair, fate plunged her back deep into the abyss of agony. If I ever saw my mother decapitated in front of me, I doubt I would have handled the event with the convictions that she portrayed.

    Clare always thinks of herself as a monster. Of course because she has taken Yoma flesh within but also because of the anger and hatred she harbors within herself. However, if you look at the entire Manga, our little monster has proven time over that she is not the fiend that she believes she is. She saved Raki. She saved Helen, Deneve and Miria. She set aside her own quest to save Jean and ended up saving Galatea whom the Organization had sent to capture or kill.
    In real life psychopaths behave heroically too.

    Quote Quote:
    In Pieta, she nearly awoke to save the task force. Monsters simply don't make the deep bonds that she has with the other warriors. She has demonstrated repeatedly a warmth, a kindness and a selfishness that is worthy of saint hood. To paraphrase Tuvok from Star Trek, she has reaffirmed her humanity and with emphasis.
    If you don't get that Clare's personality deliberately gets across the message that the side that makes her a monster and the side that is 'worthy of sainthood' are one and the same, you're missing the point, wickedsmile. They are one and the same! Read you Nietzsche.

    Is Clare really co-operating with others like a cat? Or like Jukka Sarasti? Or me? I co operate with others but I only feel for one or two of them.

    Quote Quote:
    I 100% agree with HK. Clare tortures herself and is obsessed with killing Priscilla (I still don't think she hates herself but certainly their's a large degree of guilt). It's far removed from being a psychopath.

    Clare!! Where are you? The Ghosts need you. Raki REALLY NEEDS YOU!! Heck, even Rubel misses you!!!
    Yep, she's my favourite female manga character. Can you guess what I am? I have PDD-NOS and a conduct disorder, and I was told at age 14 that I have the traits of Dissocial personality disorder whilst I was told about the conduct disorder, and it was recommended to remove me from school. So yep, there's a reason why I say Clare is an accurate portrayal of 'us'.

    ---------- Post added at 09:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    About Clare:

    Clare is a good person, and that is what she hates most of all and which she can never forgive, her own "weak" (caring-soft-kind) heart.

    How can Clare claim to love Teresa, when she couldn't feel any "ill-will" towards Priscilla, as Priscilla murdered her beloved Teresa before her eyes.

    Think of it like this:

    You're a Father or a Mother, and someone rapes and murders your precious daughter before your eyes, yet you feel no malice towards the rapist-murderer. Thus, how can you claim to love your daughter? This is Clare's despair, her pain, her hate, her unforgiveness: HERSELF.

    imagine being this guy (Dr. Petit), and not have any feelings of wanting to tear to shreds the two evil people who had done this:

    http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/...t_invasion.htm
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2...horrific-loss/
    http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...ily/index.html
    etc... (just google Dr. Petit)

    (If you're not feeling any rage+malice, there's something wrong with you! This is the same with Clare. There's something wrong with Clare, as she was unable to feel any rage+malice towards Priscilla, it's the greatest insult to her beloved Teresa, which she can never forgive herself for)
    And what does the inability to feel emotion mean, HK?.

    Though I've never felt it, we can feel like an emotion 'should' be there when we don't feel, for example at funerals.

    ---------- Post added January 27, 2012 at 04:43 PM ---------- Previous post was January 26, 2012 at 09:14 AM ----------

    More on the Nomadic Psychopath (ignore the grey boxes). Riful is a Malevolent Psychopath.

    http://books.google.co.th/books?id=-...ial%22&f=false
    Last edited by faintsmile1992; January 26, 2012 at 09:52 AM.

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  7. #19
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Vengeance's Avatar
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    Re: Miria The New protagonist?

    Miria is not the protagonist of Claymore she's simply the focal character for the current arc. Clare is the actual protagonist of the story.
    Last edited by Vengeance; January 29, 2012 at 10:07 PM.

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  9. #20
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Miria The New protagonist?

    @ HK

    your theory about Galatea is absolutely without proof and i think Yagi didnt think about such thing at all, personally i agree with it - it fits...

    Clare - you are saying she is good. i do not know what definition of good you have, but for me being able of love or emotions is not being good (as you implied)

    by my definition she is not good - she helps others but just as a side effect - how many times did she say - dont misunderstand, i didnt wanna save you, i did it merely to do something else

    im not saying she is evil or bad, just as faintsmile said - a survivalist

    also, could you please say the source of your theory - how Clare doesnt hate Priscilla? that totally got passed my attention somehow

    @faintsmile1992
    i think that i think of clare just as you do, anti-sociac nomadic whatever..
    i dont understand those terms as you do, they do pick my interest though they always did

    i cant really criticise other's opinions about Clare (HK, wickedsmile) as i dont really see how they see her

    ---------- Post added at 12:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by faintsmile1992 View Post
    You're own assumption that we're saying she's evil implies that you yourself recognise her as one of a character type who's normally a villain or an antihero.
    agree

    ---------- Post added at 12:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by faintsmile1992 View Post

    Look at the definition of 'nomadic antisocial' in the top left, and tell me this isn't an accurate description of Clare lol.

    If you don't get that Clare's personality deliberately gets across the message that the side that makes her a monster and the side that is 'worthy of sainthood' are one and the same, you're missing the point, wickedsmile. They are one and the same! Read you Nietzsche.

    And what does the inability to feel emotion mean, HK?.
    Though I've never felt it, we can feel like an emotion 'should' be there when we don't feel, for example at funerals.
    agree, second paragraph - i didnt fully realize it but you described exactly what i felt for the whole time - thank you

    im glad i can talk about (maybe worthless) things on deeper level than 'do you like it or not'

    also
    i think Clare's personality didnt change noticeably after any of traumatic events she had to endure, i think her 'shyness' (lack of emotional response probably is what i mean) stubbornness and all of her personality was there to begin with, and i think faintsmile1992 thinks so too
    Last edited by spit; January 29, 2012 at 06:19 PM.

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  11. #21
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member faintsmile1992's Avatar
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    Re: Miria The New protagonist?

    Quote Originally Posted by spit View Post
    @faintsmile1992
    i think that i think of clare just as you do, anti-sociac nomadic whatever..
    i dont understand those terms as you do, they do pick my interest though they always did
    The term is 'nomadic antisocial' and it means she's a psychopath with notable schizoid or avoidant traits.

    ---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by spit View Post
    agree, second paragraph - i didnt fully realize it but you described exactly what i felt for the whole time - thank you

    im glad i can talk about (maybe worthlless) these things on deeper level than 'do you like it or not'
    Thank you *hugs*

    ---------- Post added January 30, 2012 at 12:49 AM ---------- Previous post was January 29, 2012 at 11:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by spit View Post
    also
    i think Clare's personality didnt change noticeably after any of traumatic events she had to endure, i think her 'shyness' (lack of emotional response probably is what i mean) stubbornness and all of her personality was there to begin with, and i think faintsmile1992 thinks so too
    Well, their past is what made Clare and Priscilla nomadic psychopaths, but they were psychopathic to begin with, that's why they have certain personality traits other Claymores with similar pasts don't.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Miria The New protagonist?

    Quote Originally Posted by faintsmile1992 View Post
    The term is 'nomadic antisocial' and it means she's a psychopath with notable schizoid or avoidant traits.
    dont worry i google everything i dont undcerstand.. i just didnt study it thouroughly enough to be able to freely use the terms - which i wanna do

    Quote Originally Posted by faintsmile1992 View Post
    Well, their past is what made Clare and Priscilla nomadic psychopaths, but they were psychopathic to begin with, that's why they have certain personality traits other Claymores with similar pasts don't.
    yes that is exactly what i meant + excellent deduction

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  15. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Miria The New protagonist?

    .
    @spit,

    my comments are just my own speculations and opinions only

    if you're interested, I think I explain how I see Clare better here (if you don't mind reading through it, lol):

    (and I think I have the sources post here too, but if not, let me know, and I'll get the sources for you)

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...pendium-Thread

    (this is *NOT* an archive, so please feel free to post away in the thread!)

    ----------------------

    Also, if you're interested, the thread for Priscilla, hehe:

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...pendium-Thread

    (this is *NOT* an archive, so please feel free to post away in the thread!)

    ----------------------------------------------

    Sub-Forum for all Character related threads for Claymore:

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/forumd...bidden-Library

    (this is *NOT* an archive, so please feel free to post away in any of these threads!)

    -----------------------

    P.S.

    nevermind, I'll get the source for you:

    (see purple font below)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spit
    also, could you please say the source of your theory - how Clare doesnt hate Priscilla? that totally got passed my attention somehow
    Quote Originally Posted by HK
    This is just my own belief/understanding:

    Clare's guilt of causing Teresa's death: CURED, thanks to Irene's chat with Clare.

    Clare's Revenge Desire/Goal/Purpose/Mission upon Priscilla: It'll only be cured with Priscilla's death

    Clare's HATRED/Unforgivability/"Yunicevi !!!" of HERSELF: INcurable, Clare will always HATE and be unable to forgive herself, it's Clare's "TRUE DESPAIR", as she herself has testified this to us:

    ch 24, pgs ~ 22-23

    page ~ 22:

    Clare: My existence to her [Priscilla as a Claymore and as an Awakened] was nothing more than a stone by the side of the road. I wasn't enough to fill her [Awakened Priscilla's] belly. Or, perhaps, I didn't even get reflected in her [Awakened Priscilla's] eyes.

    Page ~ 23:

    Clare: I couldn't even hate the beast [Priscilla] that killed Teresa. It was me, overcome by fear, that I couldn't forgive.


    ----

    Clare knows TRUE DESPAIR:

    Clare's own weakness, fear, and lack of hatred, as she just watched her beloved Teresa get killed before her eyes, as she just watched Teresa's decapitated head falling to the ground. "It was me, overcome by fear, that I couldn't forgive (Clare, ch 24, pg ~ 23)."

    ch. 27, pgs ~ 23-25:

    Lido "Spiderman" male AB: Well, I guess it's time. I gave you taste of true despair.

    ch. 28, pgs ~ 26-28:

    Helen: It's hopeless. This is the end. There's nothing I can do. It's like he said. This is true despair.

    Clare responding to Helen: After only this?

    Clare to everyone: I've known a far greater opponent (lol, Clare, you mean you known the GREATEST opponent, hehe)... And felt true despair.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 30, 2012 at 02:35 AM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member faintsmile1992's Avatar
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    Re: Miria The New protagonist?

    "Clare: My existence to her [Priscilla as a Claymore and as an Awakened] was nothing more than a stone by the side of the road. I wasn't enough to fill her [Awakened Priscilla's] belly. Or, perhaps, I didn't even get reflected in her [Awakened Priscilla's] eyes."

    For the same reason that Clare watched without showing emotion?

    ---------- Post added February 01, 2012 at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was January 30, 2012 at 08:17 AM ----------

    Does any of this sound familiar?

    http://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2003/psychopaths.htm

    "Although psychopaths demonstrate emotional abnormalities such as shallow affect, lack of empathy, incapacity for love, lack of guilt or remorse, lack of fear, and emotional processing and response deficiencies they may show normal emotional responses or emotional hypersensitive in other areas. The correlates of emotional incapacities, emotional hypersensitivity, and normal emotional activities in psychopaths are studied and discussed in this paper. Emotional hypersensitivity might be linked with: a history of neglect, rejection and abuse; insult; changes which are forced or not under control of the psychopath; obstacles that prevent the psychopath to do what he or she wants to do; narcissistic injury; broken friendships or relationship. Normal emotional functioning might be associate with grief, warm relationship, adequate attention, disease, academic and/or occupational success, impressive events, confrontations, contemplation and maturation, hidden suffering (also as a result of neurobiological determination)."

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  18. #25
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member metalia's Avatar
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    Re: Miria The New protagonist?

    Quote Originally Posted by melvo 17 View Post
    we know that clare is the protagonist of claymore but is miria also considered one as well?
    I consider her a protagonist too, and I like that the autor is giving her that role.

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