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Thread: Kurapika

  1. #31
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member NoFreakingWay's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    I still think that the levels as you understand it, Phantron, are wrong. Kurapika broke his arm because simply He didn't rain Reinforcement up to the level of Uvogin. The percentage is the efficiency on the level you are, not a cap in the actual level because there is no cap in levels. There is a correlation, though, between your school and the difference in level in the Hatsus. That means that if you're Conjurer when you reach level 20 of Conjurer you will reach level 16 on Emission. But in the same time, that Emission you use compared to a natural Emission user level 16 is 80% efficient compared to the later.
    This is all unfounded actually.

    The "levels" indicated for each Hatsu in the Hatsu Hexagon are actually the "caps".

    The highest you'll ever go is Level 10 for your own Hatsu type. The highest you''l ever go for Hatsus beside your innate Hatsu type is Level 8. Level 6 is the highest you'll go for Hatsus below the Hatsus "adjacent" to yours. And Level 4 is the highest you'll go for the Hatsu that is on the opposite side of your Hatsu on the Hexagon. Specialization is different. It'll show Level 0 for all types.

    "Level" is different from "Acquisition Rate". "Acquisition Rate" is the chance you'll get a technique from a Hatsu type. Acquisition Rate can also be referred to as "training speed". The higher Acquisition Rate, the faster you'll be able to progress through the Levels of a Hatsu.

    Saying there is a Level higher than 10 is an underestimation of how hard it is to train Hatsu, not to mention ignoring all the rules Togashi laid down so far.

    Acquiring Level 10 of your innate Hatsu through training will take you decades, and the normal person won't probably have enough drive to achieve this.

    What doesn't have a cap is your POP and AOP which is upgraded by doing Ten and Ren everyday. These numbers don't even have a level. They just appear as big numbers, i.e. the ~21000 POP Knuckle said Gon had when they fought.

    Suppose you reached Level 10 for your innate Hatsu and Level 8 for the two Hatsus adjacent to your innate Hatsu, the only way you can strengthen your Hatsu is by doing Ten and Ren everyday. This increases your POP and AOP, and in turn, increases the amount of nen you can pump on your Hatsu, so it could deal more damage (if it's damage-based). This can be seen when Netero decided to just spend his time "praying" after he mastered his supersonic punches. This basically means Netero achieved Level 10 for his innate Hatsu and may also mean he reached the Level caps of the other Hatsu types (except Specialization if he hasn't found a way to activate it). At that point of mastery of Hatsu, he just "prayed", meaning working on Ten and Ren everyday so that he could pump more nen into his Hatsu and other Nen-abilities.

  2. #32
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member MegamanX195's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    But aside of the common Nen basics we have to take in consideration that Kurapika fought with a meaning in that fight that came from his very formation as a persona, while for Uvogin it was just another fight. It's the "Mystic Points" that were mention before.
    I agree with this, as Ubo mentioned he could see Kurapika had a special determination to his Nen, meaning that it was something noticeable that increased his strenght, even before he used Chain Jail.

  3. #33
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    There is no cap in levels, NFW. Because you CAN improve how much you can do of each. It's not the same to conjure a dust of sand than conjuring a whole ship that has special effects. It's where enters the mystery points as well, to "jump" that gap to allow an user to make his technique.

    Basically I'm saying that if you have a conjurer level 200 which his own technique He could mimic easily the effects of a conjurer level 20. Even with more detail. It will be always personal, though, because perception is subjective.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

  4. #34
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member MegamanX195's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoFreakingWay View Post
    This is all unfounded actually.

    The "levels" indicated for each Hatsu in the Hatsu Hexagon are actually the "caps".

    The highest you'll ever go is Level 10 for your own Hatsu type. The highest you''l ever go for Hatsus beside your innate Hatsu type is Level 8. Level 6 is the highest you'll go for Hatsus below the Hatsus "adjacent" to yours. And Level 4 is the highest you'll go for the Hatsu that is on the opposite side of your Hatsu on the Hexagon. Specialization is different. It'll show Level 0 for all types.

    "Level" is different from "Acquisition Rate". "Acquisition Rate" is the chance you'll get a technique from a Hatsu type. Acquisition Rate can also be referred to as "training speed". The higher Acquisition Rate, the faster you'll be able to progress through the Levels of a Hatsu.

    Saying there is a Level higher than 10 is an underestimation of how hard it is to train Hatsu, not to mention ignoring all the rules Togashi laid down so far.

    Acquiring Level 10 of your innate Hatsu through training will take you decades, and the normal person won't probably have enough drive to achieve this.

    What doesn't have a cap is your POP and AOP which is upgraded by doing Ten and Ren everyday. These numbers don't even have a level. They just appear as big numbers, i.e. the ~21000 POP Knuckle said Gon had when they fought.

    Suppose you reached Level 10 for your innate Hatsu and Level 8 for the two Hatsus adjacent to your innate Hatsu, the only way you can strengthen your Hatsu is by doing Ten and Ren everyday. This increases your POP and AOP, and in turn, increases the amount of nen you can pump on your Hatsu, so it could deal more damage (if it's damage-based). This can be seen when Netero decided to just spend his time "praying" after he mastered his supersonic punches. This basically means Netero achieved Level 10 for his innate Hatsu and may also mean he reached the Level caps of the other Hatsu types (except Specialization if he hasn't found a way to activate it). At that point of mastery of Hatsu, he just "prayed", meaning working on Ten and Ren everyday so that he could pump more nen into his Hatsu and other Nen-abilities.
    I don't think it was ever stated there was a limit to the levels. The Kurapika explanation said to "suppose that his max Materialization level was 10" or something among those lines. Keyword being "suppose". The whole "Level 10" thing was just there to explain it more easily to the readers. For all we know, Kurapika could be Level 18 Materialization, Level 14.4 Transformation,etc., but that wouldn't make for a very practical explanation to the readers.

    Most importantly, if Level 10 really was some sort of cap, that would imply everyone from the same type has the same potential, which simply isn't true. It's commented several times on how big Gon and Killua's potential is, and that wouldn't be the case if everyone had the same potential.

    "Acquisition Rate" refers to both training speed and the efficiency that you have on that type. Otherwise, Kurapika's master explanation in which he said that Kurapika could only use 60% Reinforcement would have nothing to do with the conversation.
    Last edited by MegamanX195; March 02, 2012 at 04:28 PM.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    Quote Originally Posted by MegamanX195 View Post
    "Acquisition Rate" refers to both training speed and the efficiency that you have on that type. Otherwise, Kurapika's master explanation in which he said that Kurapika could only use 60% Reinforcement would have nothing to do with the conversation.
    Yeah, but that's exactly what doesn't apply during Emperor's Time

  6. #36
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    Maybe that's another thing that Emperor Time affects. After all Nen users are not limited in techniques and some of them have multiple effects.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

  7. #37
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    the efficiency in hexagonal hatsu chart is like a rate. if it's not a rate, then kurapika who achieved max efficency in all category of nen would be the strongest of all nen user. but we dont see it actually. being able to have 100% in each category means that kurapika can learn the other category AS EASY AS materializtion. however, the power he can achieve depens on his training and potential (not nen potential but human's potential).

    acrually i agree with Uriel's opinion the most.

    and the determination in kurapika's chain that ubo talked about is actually his emperor time.

    and again, actually something make him able to whitstand ubo's big bang impact is that kurapika used the prepared gyou/kou to protect agants ubo's big bang impact.

    example : kurapika has 100pts aura. ubo has 100pts aura.
    ubo's big bang impact is just normal punch with aura. it means that on his hand, he might only use 10pts aura. however, kurapika tanked it with gyo/kou and used more than 50% of his aura. basically, it wont damage kurapika so bad (not even broke his armO however, ubo's physical strength is like 10 times stronger than kurapika's. so, it lightly injured kurapika. if ubo had used 50% aura on his hand, kurapika would have lost his arm or dead.

  8. #38
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member MegamanX195's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    Actually, Kurapika explained it that a Level 4 Emission user could use an emission attack with 100% Force and Accuracy, while he can only usually use it a Level 4 emission attack with 40% Force and Accuracy. However, during Emperor Time, he can use a Level 4 emission attack with 100% Force and Accuracy. The same holds true for every other type: it doesn't increase the level, but it does increases the efficiency of that level to 100%.

  9. #39
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member NoFreakingWay's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    There is no cap in levels, NFW. Because you CAN improve how much you can do of each. It's not the same to conjure a dust of sand than conjuring a whole ship that has special effects. It's where enters the mystery points as well, to "jump" that gap to allow an user to make his technique.

    Basically I'm saying that if you have a conjurer level 200 which his own technique He could mimic easily the effects of a conjurer level 20. Even with more detail. It will be always personal, though, because perception is subjective.
    Quote Originally Posted by MegamanX195 View Post
    I don't think it was ever stated there was a limit to the levels. The Kurapika explanation said to "suppose that his max Materialization level was 10" or something among those lines. Keyword being "suppose". The whole "Level 10" thing was just there to explain it more easily to the readers. For all we know, Kurapika could be Level 18 Materialization, Level 14.4 Transformation,etc., but that wouldn't make for a very practical explanation to the readers.

    Most importantly, if Level 10 really was some sort of cap, that would imply everyone from the same type has the same potential, which simply isn't true. It's commented several times on how big Gon and Killua's potential is, and that wouldn't be the case if everyone had the same potential.

    "Acquisition Rate" refers to both training speed and the efficiency that you have on that type. Otherwise, Kurapika's master explanation in which he said that Kurapika could only use 60% Reinforcement would have nothing to do with the conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zvane View Post
    Yeah, but that's exactly what doesn't apply during Emperor's Time
    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    Maybe that's another thing that Emperor Time affects. After all Nen users are not limited in techniques and some of them have multiple effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Li Mochou View Post
    the efficiency in hexagonal hatsu chart is like a rate. if it's not a rate, then kurapika who achieved max efficency in all category of nen would be the strongest of all nen user. but we dont see it actually. being able to have 100% in each category means that kurapika can learn the other category AS EASY AS materializtion. however, the power he can achieve depens on his training and potential (not nen potential but human's potential).

    acrually i agree with Uriel's opinion the most.

    and the determination in kurapika's chain that ubo talked about is actually his emperor time.

    and again, actually something make him able to whitstand ubo's big bang impact is that kurapika used the prepared gyou/kou to protect agants ubo's big bang impact.

    example : kurapika has 100pts aura. ubo has 100pts aura.
    ubo's big bang impact is just normal punch with aura. it means that on his hand, he might only use 10pts aura. however, kurapika tanked it with gyo/kou and used more than 50% of his aura. basically, it wont damage kurapika so bad (not even broke his armO however, ubo's physical strength is like 10 times stronger than kurapika's. so, it lightly injured kurapika. if ubo had used 50% aura on his hand, kurapika would have lost his arm or dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by MegamanX195 View Post
    Actually, Kurapika explained it that a Level 4 Emission user could use an emission attack with 100% Force and Accuracy, while he can only usually use it a Level 4 emission attack with 40% Force and Accuracy. However, during Emperor Time, he can use a Level 4 emission attack with 100% Force and Accuracy. The same holds true for every other type: it doesn't increase the level, but it does increases the efficiency of that level to 100%.
    Here's a long answer.

    Spoiler show


    Additional info

    http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/Hunt.../153207-6.html

    Kurapika's Master gives an example in the first panel of this page, where he supposes a Reinforcement-using enemy mastered all Reinforcement techniques. This indicates nothing less than maxing out the Reinforcement Hatsu. Therefore there is a cap.

    Level 10 was used because the maximum number would make the calculations the easiest. It actually falls into place: if you have Level 10 Reinforcement, you therefore have 100% usage of Reinforcement techniques, therefore you have 100 Sens Points, therefore you have reached the Reinforcement cap.

    Let me summarize the wall of text in Spoilers. If there was no cap, Kurapika would have died at Ubo's BBI. Ubo would have been way too experienced with Reinforcement. Kurapika who is just a newcomer, would have just reached around Level 15. Using Emperor Time would not help him survive BBI because Kurapika would just use 100% of his Level 15 Reinforcement instead of a normal 60%. Emperor Time does nothing other than that.

    Having a Level 10 Cap would put everybody's potential equal... on paper. How many nen-users though would be bothered spending 10 years or so training their nen non-stop?

    Not everyone is Ubo, Not everyone is Kurapika, Not everyone is Zoochi, even. People have different attitudes toward training so even though it's possible for both Reinforcement users to reach Level 10 and therefore have the same potential, those two people will have to work hard and I'm sure both do not have the patience to max the Hatsu Level to 10.

    Besides, as I've said before, what sets people apart in most cases are their POP, AOP, and the Mystery Points that they have in their Hatsu abilities. Higher POP and AOP means more nen in an attack meaning higher damage. With higher Mystery Points, the greater the effect and/or damage of your Hatsu.

    Read the post carefully because I think I basically answered everything here.

  10. #40
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member MegamanX195's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    I suppose your logic is spot on, I don't see any flaws in that argument. The only problem I could have with that is the fact Kurapika got to his Levels cap so fast, but that's probably due to Emperor Time.

    An unrelated question about the equation, though: If Ubo and some Level 10 Enhancer fought, BBI would cause 0% damage to the other Enhancer according to the equation, and that simply isn't true, except if the other one uses Ko or something. Or worse, if Ubo wasn't at perfect physical condition, it would deal negative damage, which isn't possible.
    Last edited by MegamanX195; March 05, 2012 at 08:54 AM.

  11. #41
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    what you're talking about is simply nen itself. but in close combat, it's not only nen alone that play the role. it's about physical strength too.

    it's like killua vs zushi :
    killua nen is 0, and zushi nen is (let say) level 1. however, the power of both punch are different. even with nen, zushi can be KO'ed by killua's non nen attack.

    if it used your nen equation, killua's attack would be -1 to zushi that means killua would be the one who was injured.

    i will try to make my own equation based on the explanation in manga...

    reinforcement efficiency* physical strength * nen mastery* percentage of nen used to attack or defend = attack or defense points

    explanation :
    1. nen mastery is how hard the user train their nen/amount of nen (it's likethiese examples : yupi has 700000 and morau 70000 and gon 12500)
    2. percentage of nen used to attack or defend is how much amount of nen is put on certain part of user body that is used to attack or defense (gyou/kou/ryu technique)
    3. reinforcement efficieny has to be used bcoz in phsical fight/close combat, the only nen type that is involved is reinforcement (0-10)
    4. physical strength is amount of strength without nen. (it's like arm wrestling in ryodan where ubo was the strongest, and then phinx, hisoka, and so on).

    based on that, the total power the user has is :
    reinforcement efficiency* physical strength * nen mastery* 100% = attack or defense points

    so, ubo vs kurapika :
    kurapika's power to defend = 10*50*50*70% = 17500
    bigbang impact = 10*100*100*20% = 20000
    it means kurapika get 2500 damage from total power he has which is 10*50*50*100% = 250000. it's a 10% damage which cause broken arm.

    kurapika emperor time plays a role in the reinforcement efficiency. actually, if he didnt use emperor time, his efficiency is only 6 due to materialization potential of him
    kurapika's total amount of nen is probably below ubo bcoz their experience and training has a big gap. so, ubo get 100pts and kurapika only 50pts.
    Last edited by Li Mochou; March 05, 2012 at 10:47 AM.

  12. #42
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Li Mochou View Post
    the efficiency in hexagonal hatsu chart is like a rate. if it's not a rate, then kurapika who achieved max efficency in all category of nen would be the strongest of all nen user. but we dont see it actually. being able to have 100% in each category means that kurapika can learn the other category AS EASY AS materializtion. however, the power he can achieve depens on his training and potential (not nen potential but human's potential).

    acrually i agree with Uriel's opinion the most.

    and the determination in kurapika's chain that ubo talked about is actually his emperor time.

    and again, actually something make him able to whitstand ubo's big bang impact is that kurapika used the prepared gyou/kou to protect agants ubo's big bang impact.

    example : kurapika has 100pts aura. ubo has 100pts aura.
    ubo's big bang impact is just normal punch with aura. it means that on his hand, he might only use 10pts aura. however, kurapika tanked it with gyo/kou and used more than 50% of his aura. basically, it wont damage kurapika so bad (not even broke his armO however, ubo's physical strength is like 10 times stronger than kurapika's. so, it lightly injured kurapika. if ubo had used 50% aura on his hand, kurapika would have lost his arm or dead.
    Kurapica's basically when his eyes are red can utilize each hatsu of nen to 100% efficiency. He materials 5 chains and commonly Hatsu are mix amongst the group, favorably not to your less compatible nen...Kurapica doesn't have this problem once his eyes turns red he can use all Nen to it's fullest....However 2 of the chains are only for then Spiders.......

    So baically Kurapica used Ryu not Gyo.....To block with at least over 80% of his nen and used Reinforcement based to match Uvgon's power....That's also why he was able to damage Uvgon so much when he attacked. Kurapica's Kurta clan is strong....But He isn't invincible he wasn't on The Spiders level per say...bout 2-3 levels he just used good tatics and his nen has a powerful conviction to it.

  13. #43
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    That applies as was said by basic fighting in Nen. And if you pay attention to the page you linked, it's exactly about that.
    Levels of Hatsu doesn't work JUST by that. It's a bit more complicate because it's not only Nen formula.

    To put it in numbers, the whole damage would be something like this:
    (Uvo Nen Basic Gyo* Uvo Strength + Uvo Reinforcement Multiplier by LVL) - ( [Kurapika Nen Basic Kou * Kurapika Strength + Kurapika Emperor Time Reinforcement Multiplier by LVL]*Kurapika Pledge on Genei Ryodan AKA Mystery Points)= Damage Dealt

    Summarized:
    ƩUvo - ƩKurapika = ΔF = Damage
    Last edited by Uriel; March 05, 2012 at 06:26 PM.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

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  15. #44
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member MegamanX195's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    Actually, Kurapika's master specifically used "100%" when he was talking about someone who fully mastered Reinforcement, which means he was talking about the efficiency rate that Kurapika's Emperor Time boosts. Basically, it means he was comparing 2 people of the same level, nothing in that line indicates that there is a cap in the levels.

    And on the Levels thing, I don't think Levels increase that easily over time, for all we know, you can get to Level 10 in 1 month, but to get form Level 10 to Level 11 it could take 2 months. Most MMOs work like that actually: start off easy, then take long to get to higher levels. Even with Ubogin's high experience, who's to say that it doesn't take him upwards from a year to improve a single level, since he's at a high level? It was never stated Kurapika's (or anyone's) max level was 10 in the Levels explanation, nor even implied.

    The equation is probably a lot more complicated than that (that equation only applies if both users are from comparable levels and without counting Ryuu/Ko), and, as Uriel said, Kurapika's Emperor Time both increases maximum aura, and probably acts as Mystery Points multiplier.
    Last edited by MegamanX195; March 05, 2012 at 08:23 PM.

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    Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    That applies as was said by basic fighting in Nen. And if you pay attention to the page you linked, it's exactly about that.
    Levels of Hatsu doesn't work JUST by that. It's a bit more complicate because it's not only Nen formula.

    To put it in numbers, the whole damage would be something like this:
    (Uvo Nen Basic Gyo* Uvo Strength + Uvo Reinforcement Multiplier by LVL) - ( [Kurapika Nen Basic Kou * Kurapika Strength + Kurapika Emperor Time Reinforcement Multiplier by LVL]*Kurapika Pledge on Genei Ryodan AKA Mystery Points)= Damage Dealt

    Summarized:
    ƩUvo - ƩKurapika = ΔF = Damage
    This is your nen formula Which doesn't exist in the world of HXH so I can't use what you just wrote as fact.

    The whole levels are dumb considering Kurapica's ability to use 100% accuracy and force...Cause if his opponents level is higher and they use 100% Kurapica should never win in a clash...I.E Uvgon..

    I myself understand how he survived the hit...Uvgon's Big bang simply wasn't packed with more aura than Kurapica blocked with...Even if Nen attacks are blocked with more aura or whatever damage still can be done...I.E Kurapica's broken arm.

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