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I was gonna say, the fight seems kinda ridiculous if you think about it, but at the same time its not like Kurapika wasn't going to lose poorly if he didn't have Chain Jail. Without Chain Jail I think Kurapika (using emperor's time) would have eventually been splattered two or three direct hits later. And this is assuming Uvo isn't at the 100% top of his game. Simply put to say he tanked that punch is a bit of a stretch to me.
I didn't read every post. To answer why kurapika did not use zetsu because he wanted to see how strong Uvon really is, bear in mind his got 12 other members to deal with. In addition he did not take full hit he evaded, he must've sensed the power Uvon had in his punch and i dont believe he mustered all his nen just to defend that attack that would only make his chain go away(ko, i think that was the nen technique).
I never answered NFW post! :O After so long I may have forgotten my points. Let's see.
For reinforcement users this applies as well as Hatsu training.Quote:
I was thinking that MP are kinda hard to predict. You say that it's applied only once at Emperor Time and I say it's applied twice as Emperor Time and Circumstances against Spiders. (One by birth, one by life experiences)Quote:
I kinda agree and disagree. My point is easier to see with conjuration, emission and manipulation users: Hatsu as it increases allows you to make more with your aura. This means that even if you have a lot of aura not always you're able to make it work properly. Let's see Kastro example: He as a reinforcement user tried to make a doppelganger that He control fully. Then we have Morel who can make at least 50 strong Smoke Warriors. Let's make a review on "Nen-based" creatures that uses manipulation:Quote:
Morel controls at least 216. (Manipulation) 50 with more complex techniques.
Shachmono controls 11 (Emission)
Goreinu controls 2 (Emission)
Razor controls 14 (Emission) (The techniques is named 14 Devils)
Kastro controls just 1 (Intensification)
Morel -> Mid-Advanced Fighting with 50 Smoke Troopers.
Shachmono controls 11 (Emission) - > Mid-Low Fighting Shadow Troopers.
Goreinu controls 2 (Emission) - > High Figthing-Special Gorillas.
Razor -> Mid-High since one can even talk and remember rules. #13 even matches the strength of Gon.
Kastro controls just 1 (Intensification) - > Mid (Since it requires he being focused and nearby) Fighting Doppelganger.
Notice that there is three users of Nen there of the same school and the five can illustrate clearly the Nen diagram. Even if Sachmono control more troopers they're useless at best: They can't be used in serious fighting. In the other hand 2 Gorillas with MORE complex orders and special abilities. Razor control at least 8 simultaneous troopers. They have complex abilities, since they can play a game quite easy and take decisions quick.
We have here three users of the same school: Beginner Shachmono, Mid Goreinu, High Razor. This illustrates with quantity and quality of the beasts.
And then we have a Morel, who is a High Nen user as Razor and He can do 5 times more to say the least. With mid-complex orders, who says a lot. This illustrates that you CAN level hatsu without a cap and that wont affect the difference with each school.
I don't know if this illustrates enough, but I can expand on this if you want me to be more clear.
This is what happens when you start to discuss a premise without pointing the difference. My bad, anyway, since I should notice this earlier.Quote:
Which are two ways to name Gyo and Aura Balance :P Kou is Gyo with Zetsu. So you need to balance your aura to use it properly.Quote:
Yes, AOP and POP are trained with basic techniques.Quote:
I did not singled them out, I said that training Ten and Ren works as Hatsu training with Reinforcement since this school in particular just applies basic techniques.
See that Kurapika is pictured as level 10 conjuration user. Seeing all the Nen users shown after Kurapika fight I think it's clear that level 10 is way too short.Quote:
Caps exist. At least, for Hatsu Levels. There aren't any caps for AOP/POP. These are what I've been repeatedly saying. You just have to read harder, and you have to ask yourself practical questions.
1) Hatsu level of Kurapika...A beginner in Nen.Quote:
2) Level percentage means how much you're able to use proficiently the aura in a foreign school.
3) I don't know what you're talking about, please explain :O
4) Hum, this could be the point. The word in japanese is?
That formula misses condition and you're completely ignoring that while Emperor Time, Kurapika uses all schools proficiently. Also, this numbers doesn't reflect exhaustion properly, since it should be a number that affects the ending result.Quote:
I can't discuss this since I can't agree with your premise here as well, which is the formula you're using that the Master only used it to teach basic Nen fightings before knowing the details of Emperor Time.
And He's new to Nen but his bow is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too strict and allows him to use it as a more levelled nen user. Which was the original point.
In this formula you should add the circumstances in which:Quote:
- Uvo is not at his top.
- Kurapika has waited this moment nearly half his life.
A fracture THEN is a reflection of this number.
You should ask yourself this: If Hatsus have caps, how it is that more experienced Nen users can do better in foreign schools than beginners native of that school.
And to be honest I didn't read the rest because I've to go to work, but if any of this answer what I said please remind me so.
Anyway, we're ausing two different system to explain the fight and I actually see both of them viable. Also, I can't see in the manga anything but the word "maximize" which I honestly put in question since Togashi changed the Nen system a lot since then.
Last edited by Uriel; August 06, 2013 at 05:48 PM.
I notice HXH has a tendency of getting people to think breaking an arm is no big deal. Although it's not as bad as breaking an arm in real life, in HXH only two characters can recover from this kind of damage in midfight, namely Pitou and Kurapika. All other characters would definiately have the usage of that arm out for the remainder of the battle. The come back from behind cases where a guy has a broken arm more or less require extremely good tactics plus the opponent being dumb. So the fact that Kurapika can withstand a Big Bang with only a broken arm isn't that amazing in itself. Ubogin wasn't surprised that Kurapika could tank his damage, and honestly if he didn't pull a 'never heard of Gyo' level of mistake, it's unlikely he'd have given enough time for Kurapika to heal his arm in mid fight, and then he'd have a rather significant advantage since Kurapika will be down to one arm. Even though I do believe in "Reinforcement always wins", that doesn't mean a single hit from a Reinforcement user is supposed to blow up the opponent. If you disable someone's arm in one good hit, that's more than enough to win in the long run assuming you make no unusual mistake.
In this case I believe Togashi made the mistake but it's only natural since it was a developing system.
We have Machi who re-attached an arm. And Biscuit can deal with exhaustion so I BELIEVE (Notice that i'm just speculating) that it could have other healing abilities. In the other hand, we don't have known any Nen user focused on healing.
I think people really underestimate how damage done by Reinforcement users put them in a commanding position due to the numerous 'came back from an arm behind' victories. Kurapika is roughly equivlaent of an Emission in terms of Reinforcement strength (lower base, but Emperor Time boosts it) so we'll say his overall strength is roughly like Franklin or Hisoka. Say Ubogin's power output is roughly equal of Ko, and an opponent with Hisoka/Franklin level of overall strength defended with Ken (remember, defend Ko with Ko is way too risky) and broke an arm. Who has the upper hand? It's not game over but that guy better have a really awesome comeback. The only reason Kastro and Ubogin lost while being 'an arm up' is because they're dumb to the level of 'too dumb to live'. How is someone like Ubogin who clearly must have fought many fights to the death don't even realize he's supposed to keep Gyo up on his eyes against a guy who he obviously has no idea what his abilities are? And connecting one hit to put you up in a serious advantage against an enemy with Hisoka level of skill is pretty advantageous. Remember, Kastro only connected 2 strong hits, and the first one took Hisoka's arm and it's not clear if he could've avoided this one. Just because Kastro somehow lost while being 2 arms ahead doesn't mean a normal person is supposed to do the same.
The reason why Reinforcement is strong and don't even need real Hatsus is that just connecting a Ko usually does significant damage, and as long as you don't make a terrible mistake, you can easily ride the advantage of being an arm up to victory even against guys with very special abilities. And if someone's special ability is so good that they can overcome being an arm down while you making no mistakes, then that just means you ran into some kind of Emperor Time level of hax abilities and anybody would be pretty screwed there.
Let's say Ubo fought another Ubo. U1 uses Big Bang Impact, while U2 defends with regular Ken-powered arm. If the damage is anything short of a broken arm, U1 put himself at a huge risk for minimal gain, which defeats the entire purpose of a Ko-like attack. Ko is supposed to be a very powerful attack that has serious drawbacks, mainly that being you make a mistake and you're dead. You can't simply go "lol I died, oh well" and have another shot, you die and that's it. That's why it should be seldom used. Besides, that's also not counting that BBI > Ko, which from what I've read from your posts you don't believe is true. Correct me if I'm mistaken on the last point.
Back to Kurapika, he is inferior to Ubo in every way: aura-wise, physically (specially so), etc. The only reason he can keep up with Ubo (or any other Spider) is because of direct implied power boost against Spiders, Scarlet eyes boosting every physical attribute AND aura size significantly, and of course Emperor Time's properties. Even so, he's inferior. His attacks do 0 damage against 50% Ubo. Ubo's 100% BBI should be absolutely overkill, for all the reasons stated above. Kurapika is NOT Ubo's equal.
Actually, after re-reading the story I'm not confused by this anymore. It's somewhat hand-waved as Kurapika's arm being totally destroyed instead of just broken, Ubo wasn't at perfect conditions, and so on.
Also, on Ubo's "clumsiness", I don't think Ubo made a noob mistake, Kurapika just made use of some clever, simple thinking that no experienced Nen-user would expect. It's the classic "expert falling for simple tactics", which is seen time and time again, simply because it's something so simple that one often forgets of it. Besides, there was no cue to use Gyo. By the time he used Gyo (if you believe Kurapika had him in the chains for a while), Kurapika could have "activated" Chain Jail any time he wanted and the fight would be over anyway.
I admire the way you analyze HxH's world, Phantron. I just usually disagree with it because nothing in HxH's world is ever set in stone, and you see everything too "cleanly cut", where each and every situation has an obvious outcome every time, which goes against the entire point of much of HxH, specially so when it's Nen-related, by occasionally reading too much into some lines and not enough in others. I probably won't respond to your next post unless I'm able to fit my answer in a few lines or I feel like there's something I absolutely, but you can be sure I'll enjoy reading it.
If UboA fought UboB, and UboA attacked with Big Bang, if UboB sees it coming he'd just pound the ground for sharpnel and killing UboA instantly because he's in a near-Ko state and cannot possibly guard against a wide area attack. If UboB does not see Ubo A's Big Bang on time he'd be forced to take Big Bang with Ken (we'll assume Ubogin isn't as crazy as Gon) which will do significant but not enough damage to say break an arm (because he's just as strong as UboA). The reason why you can't constantly attack with Ko is that one of these days the other guy will see it coming and just do a ranged area effect attack and thus killing you instantly (you can't guard against such attacks even if they're weak because you're using Ko). Note that Ubogin hid his aura and sneaked up on Kurapika before using Big Bang. He has to because Kurapika obviously can do ranged attacks. Of course Ko-level output has significant risk, but crippling someone's arm is more than enough to secure a victory assuming no huge mistake was made by the Reinforcement user, so it's a good risk to take, and as far as we know Reinforcement Ko on any non Reinforcement user will generally lead to a crippling hit.
The baseline stats of HXH characters are nearly identical. Kurapika fought Hisoka to a draw in the final exam and there's no reason to believe Hisoka purposely held back. Sure he didn't use aura but Kurapika can't even use aura so it's still an even fight. Gon snapped Ilumi's arm when he was angry in the same exam. For whatever reason Kurapika's physical strength can be considered on par with top fighters of HXH world, and any lack of training on the aura department is made up his heritage giving him vastly greater aura abilities than any normal people could.
The 'fall for simple tactic' doesn't apply here. If you don't know how to deal with In you're literally too dumb to live in the world of HXH if you're at all involved in combat. Of course from that we get the conclusion that at least 3 members of the Spiders are too dumb to live (Machi and Shizuku needed to be reminded by Kuroro to use Gyo). I mean if In works on Chain Jail, it should definitely also work on say, Franklin's Aura Machinegun, so if you don't use Gyo you'd just get shot by stuff you can't even see and die when fighting an Emission user. I think early on Togashi want to make the Gyo versus In a big deal, but eventually realized that anyone who would fall for In would just be too dumb to live which is why you don't see In used ever again. How do you know when to use Gyo? The answer is always. For example we see that Hisoka raised his hand toward Kastro and used the bungee gum on his chin, and hid the aura with In and that's supposed to be clever. But what if Hisoka was an Emission user and threw an aura blast at Kastro's face while still using In? Since Kastro didn't activate Gyo, that'd mean he'd just have his face blown off and die because he won't see the aura blast either, and that sure is a lot more effective than whatever clever trick Hisoka did. So how on earth does anyone survive past their first encounter with anybody who can do a decent Emission attack if they didn't know to keep Gyo on at all times?
Last edited by Phantron; August 06, 2013 at 10:30 PM.
"Actually, after re-reading the story I'm not confused by this anymore. It's somewhat hand-waved as Kurapika's arm being totally destroyed instead of just broken, Ubo wasn't at perfect conditions, and so on. "
how was he not in perfect condition?
In addition, the reason why Uvon did not use gyo because he was under the impression that the chain was real and not of nen make. Kurapika knew he needed more than just power to atleast best the Spiders, he took advantage of his nen abilities tricked Uvon and beat him.
I do agree that Uvon and kurapika is not equal in terms of strength the same can be said for Kuroro and Uvon however Kurapika's expertise in using his nen just like kuroro plus ET should earn him a high regard.
No idea considering it created a massive crater when he fought the shadow beast.
Kurapika's strategy turned out to be utterly irrelevent, unless we're supposed to believe people like Ubogin is too dumb to live and doesn't know the basics of using Gyo against enemy with an unknown power.
That said, the story does properly explain why Ubogin failed to anticipate an attack like Chain Jail. If we look at say, Palm versus Killua, we see that Killua takes significant damage defending Palm's normal attacks, and this is what happens when two combatants are seprated by 1 school away from Reinforcement. Razor and Gon have roughly equal maximum power output during GI, so if we make the rather crazy assumption that Gon is as proficient overall as Hisoka, this means Gon, by the virtue of being 1 school higher, can easily break Hisoka's arm because Razor had no problem doing that with his maximum power. Again, this is only 1 school away from Reinforcement. Note that Knuckles, a clearly higher tier overall guy than Gon, also cannot take a rock head on at all.
Therefore, we can get the conclusion that 2 school away from Reinforcement = no possible chance to fight straight up. Therefore, Ubogin's thoughts are as follows:
Materialization/Specialization/Manipulation cannot survive Big Bang head on if they're same tier as he.
Kurapika is same overall tier as he.
Kurapika can survive Big Bang.
So Kurapika must NOT be Materialization/Specialization/Manipulation, which also means he won't have any 'weird' attacks to worry about.
Emperor Time is crazy even by HXH standards. There's no way Ubogin could've anticipated his enemy have an ability that is far above what is fair in the world of HXH.
Kurapica was able to Tank the Big Bang Attack mostly due to PIS and simply Plot. Everybody should understand what Kurapica's Scarlet eyes gives him the ability to be a specialist and he invented Emperor Time's meaning he can master all aspects of Nen and isn't limited once he has his scarlet eyes .
Kurapica shouldn't have been able to Tank such an attack with only just a broken arm..It's PIS and just a plot device. I'm not saying Kurapica's shouldn't have of couldn't beat Uvo, it's just that Kurapica's usage in Enhancer, even if he can utilize that type of Nen to 100% of its capabilities. His Reinforcement/Enhancement Still shouldn't be on Uvo's level where his special attack Big Bang that leaves craters and blew apart that Nen mafias guy, Should have only broken Kurapica's arm.
I fully understand how Uvo, lost he assumed Kurapica's chain was a real chain, that he was manipulating not a Nen chain that was. Injured and most likely has special abilities and stipulations. But Kurapica's even with Emperor's Time isn't or wasn't a better Enhancer than Uvo so he should have recieved way more damage than that....
And Kurapica's is actually a PIS character if you look at it...The only reason he's capable of defeating Sich strong Nen users like the spiders is because of his limitless emotions, of hate towards which drives his Nen to up around their level then he has Well planned out power who's primary weapon can only be used against the Spiders.