Sasuke vs. Killerbee

[ninjabot]

It would work the same way, yes. But, did you see any stab wound whatsover when Sasuke hit him? Can you explain why Chidori Eisou cut through full bijuu mode Bee's tentacle, while regular Chidori couldn't cut through Bee when he wasn't even using a chakra shroud?

Keep in mind Chidori Eisou is canonically weaker than Chidori.

[xXan]

I would like to add to the above the fact that there is no blood.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-417-14...apter-412.html

And here absolutly no wound:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-417-16...apter-412.html

Bee/Sasuke/Suigetsu had absolutly no blood on them and when Kakashi and Sasuke used that move vs Zabusa/Naruto a sea of blood was present.

[Rikudou King]

Sasuke was Handicap? How is his Handicap when he had a sharingan? U prolly forgetting how hax Sasuke Sharingan is.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-417-7/...apter-412.html <- Yea Read what Suigetsu said. From on that Point.

If you think there a handicap and sasuke wasn't 100%.
Explain this
http://www.mangareader.net/93-417-13...apter-412.html <- Sasuke used Chidori. What? Your telling Chidori is a jutsu that cannot kill?

Sasuke was fighting still injured from his fight with Itachi. And yes, Chidori can be used in a no-killing manner. Kakashi's used it like that to slice through Kakuzu's tentacles.

Isn't Bee's lightning superior? In the fight with Kisame didn't he make his lightning pencil vibrate so fast it was better than wind element? Then theoretically can't he do that with his sword and next time Sasuke and Bee clash electrified swords wouldn't Bee's just cut through Sasukes? I mean if Wind beats Lightning and Bee's Lightning beats Wind... makes sense to me.

I believe all lightning flows have that property, thus the reason they can all slice through things so easily. We saw Sasuke counter and stop Kirabi's lightning flow with his own, suggesting they have the same power.

[ninjabot]

About Bee's Raiton being stronger, I'm gonna say "no". Just because it didn't pierce through Sasuke's sword when it was charged with raiton. Also, it's stated, but I don't know if it's ever confirmed, that Sasuke's raiton charged sword has him charge Chidori through it. Not just regular old raiton. It explains why he cut through all the chakra blades that those Samurai tried to hit him with. It wasn't just chakra flow, it was chakra flow from an incredibly strong jutsu. I'd say that even if it was somehow stronger, it wasn't strong enough to overcome his own chakra flow.

[jdw]

About Bee's Raiton being stronger, I'm gonna say "no". Just because it didn't pierce through Sasuke's sword when it was charged with raiton. Also, it's stated, but I don't know if it's ever confirmed, that Sasuke's raiton charged sword has him charge Chidori through it. Not just regular old raiton. It explains why he cut through all the chakra blades that those Samurai tried to hit him with. It wasn't just chakra flow, it was chakra flow from an incredibly strong jutsu. I'd say that even if it was somehow stronger, it wasn't strong enough to overcome his own chakra flow.

Seems to me that he is using Chidori, but you never know.

Kusanagi* Sword: Chidori** Katana*** (草薙の剣・千鳥刀, Kusanagi no Tsurugi: Chidorigatana)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Uchiha Sasuke

The pallid sharp blade that pierces through everything sings the song of thunder!!

Among those techniques that use a "chakra flow" to raise cutting ability or make use of the "Chidori," this technique in particular is called "Chidori Katana," because it flows Lightning-natured chakra through a katana. The radiating and chirping blade can easily cut up even steel. Furthermore, the body of the person cut by the sword goes numb, taking away their freedom of movement!!

[picture of Yamato being stabbed in the shoulder by Sasuke's Kusanagi Sword]
←The "Chidori" flows through the blade, into the enemy's body. The muscles hit by the electrical current go stiff, making it impossible to move!! LINK

[Uchiha_Blood]

There isn't a big enough difference to change the fact that they can all of them, ALL of them, be used in the midst of close range combat given an opening.

And yet it was never showed. As in, Sasuke never used Amaterasu during a bout where he directly fought someone.
This isn't an assumption like you're making, is a fact:
Sasuke fought against Bee, Raikage, Mizukage and Tsuchikage, Danzou and Kakashi since he acquired MS, and he never use it that way.
But please, continue to believe that he can do it, even though the manga disagrees with you

You were shown with Sasuke jumping into the air and activating Amaterasu while Susanoo is active. That's multitasking no matter how hard you try to dance around it. His body was going through the physical pain of every cell in his body burning at once, and he still had the focus, chakra, and aim to hit Danzou with a point-blank Amaterasu. You SERIOUSLY expect us (anyone, really) to believe Sasuke can't swing a sword while casting Amaterasu? Run while casting Amaterasu? Block an attack while casting Amaterasu? There's no way in hell jumping with Susanoo active and casting Amaterasu is LESS difficult than using Amaterasu while in the midst of a fight.

No, I'm not giving you this one.

Such a shame though that Sasuke himself used, as a strategy, the same "assumption" that I used to prevent Itachi to fire Amaterasu.
Facts are facts, Amaterasu never was used when the user is engaged in close combat, it can be used when the user uses other jutsus while not being directly engaged ( Susano'o, the Great Fireball ) but it can't be used that way, because the manga says so.
Logic agrees with you, manga agrees with me.
Unless the OP states "we will ignore manga facts to only concentrate on logic", then your brilliant argument is useless, I'm afraid.
It holds weight, I'm not denying that, but it is disproved by the manga itself

Only if you ignore the things that actually happened:

Entering the fight injured
Without Amaterasu
Holding back
Without using Sharingan

If you're gonna tell it, tell it all.

With Sharingan he obtained the same results, Bee too was holding back, and again don't be an hypocrite and say "Sasuke was injured oh noez he was weak!" when in the Itachi vs Sasuke fight you alwasy said " we don't know how the illness would've impaired Itachi, so we can't say that he would've been better".
Coherence isn't your point here, I see. Again, continue to believe something different from what the manga states, please

Could've what? Killed him? Because he didn't want him dead... this has been stated before. To death actually. And he didn't want to use Tsukuyomi again because the chakra drain it takes and the blindness it causes to only paralyze an opponent for a moment is an incredible cost/risk. Not to mention he didn't want to kill him and was also being cocky. In addition to all of this, even if he wanted to kill Bee, he didn't have Amaterasu yet. Just like every single evolution of the Sharingan it takes intense emotional and physical duress before the power first manifests.

Not without killing him. How much of this chapter have you actually read?

Again, poor, poor Tsukuyomi, it didn't activate under emotional stress, why? And he did use Tsukuyomi later on, and Tsukuyomi do not kills the target, and he didn't know that he would break out of it in a second.
Simply put, Sasuke went at it, Bee went at it, Bee proved superior. Sasuke was saved, then using teamwork Taka made Bee go a little serious ( he didn't use V2, thus he wasn't even that serious ), Sasuke upped the fight with Tsukuyomi, Bee upped the fight with his Bijuu form., Sasuke gained the upper hand with Amaterasu.

This is what happens in the chapters, not "Sasuke was kind and didn't want to hurt poor Bee, and unwillingly let himself be almost killed twice before unleashing Amaterasu on his face".

@Uchiha_Blood
I can't explain how exacly magic works in Naruto but i will try. Genjutsu cast with MS or no MS is still genjutsu, the diference is that now Sasuke has a more powerfull eye to chanel the genjutsu trough. That would be the explanation that i see here. He does just about the same thing only trough a diferent "focusing lens".

But aside for that we have:
1 tomoe trough emotions (Itachi killing his family).
2 tomoe trough emotions (Haku fight).
3 tomoe trough emotions (cutting his connection with Naruto and aiming to kill him).

Amaterasu- long emotional ride before its use. We also have the link where he states he had no idea about its properties.
Susano- RAGE GIVE RAGE bla bla bla. Even Tobi stated that his hate alowed him to overcome that seal placed by Danzou and summon Susano.

As you can see it is about emotions.

It still do not explain Tsukuyomi, it may be a flaw of Kishi, true, but stating that he didn't have Amaterasu before the fight cuz he didn't had the right emotions is bullshit, imho.
He didn't use it because he didn't want to kill Bee, plain and simple.
He needed to capture him, and Amaterasu do not enables the user to capture a thing. Burn things yes, capture no

You missed the point. Raikage moving at that speed made a close dodge. Its irrelevant what he belived. The speed he used was just enough to dodge Amaterasu and considering Sasuke can grow Amaterasu to some 30 meters wall not even that speed is probably not going to help you. When Sasuke trows a Amaterasu he can turn it into a tsunami of flames (he was able to cover the 8 tails close to instantly).



Look at the distance Raikage had after the dodge:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-31674-...apter-463.html
You can see him moving and creating after images of himself. Then here:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-31674-...apter-463.html
When Amaterasu has passed he is some 20 cm tops from it.

Also aparently they DO know details about it:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-31674-...apter-463.html

Its direcly stated why he is doing it and how he is going to counter it. Kishi made it damn clear there... But yes go ahead and belive Raikage has done that just in case and he could have dodged that with some 20 meters to spare but the manga shows diferently.

I don't see a close dodge, I see Raikage easily evading it. Since Amaterasu is pretty fast, of course he didn't dodge for 20 meters, he simply, completely, dodged it. Or what, did he need to go, as you say, 20 meters far? Like when someone sidesteps a punch, he could've dodged better, but he avoided the attack.
How Raikage avoiding Amaterasu automatically proves that Bee can't, though, is beyond me, a base Bee managed to catch up with a raiton clad Raikage, I believe a cloaked Bee to be close, in speed, to Raikage.
Still, again, you see what you like to see, manga shows us that Amaterasu is fast, and that A effortlessy dodged it without breaking a sweat.
The rest are all baseless assumptions

I already have but you just don't whant to accept it. ITS IMPOSIBLE for Sasuke to not be able to use Amaterasu in the middle of a fight even IF he needs to stop Bee dead in his tracks with a genjutsu... ITS THAT simple... Also you belive that using Susano + Amaterasu faster then Danzou can hit the ground is harder then a block with a sword + Amaterasu? How about using shunshin to get some distance and then Amaterasu? You do know Susano need a good amounth of concentration and makes you hurt like hell... Its not that evidence is not there or i or someone else never stated it to you. Its just that you don't whant to accept it and you got a diferent oppinion. That is why i see no reason to keep repeating myself or what people already stated. I can see that nothing is going to make you change your mind and so i am just wasting my time tring to do it.

People already stated something that isn't proved to manga, and pardon me, the only one that states what you say are Sasuke fans, hardly impartial ones too.
Of couse he could use shunshin to create some distance and then Amaterasu Bee, but Bee would, likely, evade it, for the reasons I illustrated and that you failed to dispute, unless senseless and proveless debating is disputing something.
As I asked ninjabot, show me some proof, and I will gladly eat my words. Since there aren't any proof whatsoever to what you claim, yet there are plenty on what I claim, you will forgive me if I believe that your assumptions aren't worth a thing.

I got links that showed what level of speed you need to dodge amaterasu. You don't have any links that show Bee having speed anywhere close to that and reaction times...
Amaterasu is not istantaneous obviously i got no idea where you got this from... But the speed needed and reaction times needed is above what Bee has.
Yes i don't have a link where somebody used it in a direct h2h fight but considering the other evidence we got and under what circumstances he was able to use it creating a oppening and using Amaterasu is MORE then accetable... Its completly ridicolus to belive that Sasuke is not going to be able to make a oppening to blink in this fight.

Oh yes and you don't have facts... Just your oppinion that not only I but some others disagree with.

Again, you and Sasuke fans disagree, which is hardly relevant, as in it is not.
I showed Sasuke, someone with speed far inferior to a cloaked Bee, almost dodge Amaterasu, Itachi being sick do not mean that Itachi's Amaterasu was any less slower or less deadly. He still followed Sasuke's high speed movements, and he catched it.

As for reflexes, Bee showed plenty of them, he reacted perfectly to Yondaime, Itachi and Nagato.
Two of the above are faster than Sasuke is, the third was invisible and undetectable even by Naruto Chakra Mode sensor power until a second before.
But alas, if you think that anyone can do it, be my guest

I like the fact that you discard HOW that happened. It happened when Sasuke was completly baffled as Bee blocked it. Yes it was a his fault for it but that does not show us he can't block Bee or keep up. Before that he blocked WITH NO SHARINGAN ON multiple hits from Bee. Yes he got send back flying after that and at that point he had his sharingan active but he was able to block multiple hits. Also when he got send flying back he had no injury. Sasuke was more then able to keep up with his speed. Problem was with his unorthodox fighting style as Suigetsu put it. Also keep in mind that Sasuke was fighting to capture and NOT to kill. HUGE diference. Was made clear in the manga that to capture is WAY more harder then to kill your target. This means that even if he had a oppening he would have not exploited it if it was somethign that would kill Bee.

Also this is confirmation that his body was under huge stress:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-420-12...apter-415.html

Keep ignoring it.

Not this again, please.
Explaining that Bee wasn't serious too, that even with a Sharingan Sasuke was impaled and that we can't count on Sasuke's injuries since we don't know how they imparied him ( if they reduced his stamina, for example, which wouldn't count a thing with Sasuke's speed ) would require, again, too much time.
The outcome, again, showed in the manga was that Sasuke is inferior to Bee in taijutsu/kenjutsu and speed.
Do you understand it, or do I need to put it in a more, easy way?
Sasuke and Bee clashed, Sasuke was impaled by 6 swords. Both were going easy on the other. Who is better?


I, in all honesty, skipped the whole argument on Bee speed and reflexes, I already provided proofs for both of them above, see those and keep believing what you want. And, again, I like the fact that you're bringing other ppl in this, it further proves that you do not have arguments, and are resorting to other opinions in the hope to strenghten your own. Sadly what Sasuke fans thinks is irrilevant in a debate, same with what Bee or other fans thinks.
Furthermore, if those same ppl are biased towards one of the charaters, you actually strenght my own assumption

Logical arguments have been made by me and other people. You just don't what to accept them. Me and some other people also showed you proof... Again you don't whant to accept it.
I am not a Sasuke fan but i can't say i hate his caracter. The thing is the evidence showes that Sasuke wins so he does.
Hate Bee? My fav is Naruto and after that is JMan and then Bee... He is one of my favorites... But compared to you i don't let my personal feeling get in the way and also i don't see how a caracter would be less fun to me if he can't take Sasuke down... BIG DEAL.

Good lord, this is all a big crying.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings, please, believe that what others say make your logical, canonical, factual facts more believable, please do.
And evidence show us that Sasuke did not win against Bee, so they are hardly evidence, more still assumptions.
Do you know the difference?
Evidence is a fact actually happened, assumption is a fact that someone thinks, based on his experience, or thoughts.
Was Bee captured in Amaterasu in humanoid form? No. So it is an evidence? No.
Was Sasuke beaten by Bee in a Taijutsu/kenjutsu bout despite his Sharingan? Yes. So it is an evidence? Yes.
Did Sasuke beat Killer Bee alone? No, other than he needed Taka to survive Bee also managed to escape. So it is an evidence? I'm afraid not

[ninjabot]

And yet it was never showed. As in, Sasuke never used Amaterasu during a bout where he directly fought someone.
This isn't an assumption like you're making, is a fact:
Sasuke fought against Bee, Raikage, Mizukage and Tsuchikage, Danzou and Kakashi since he acquired MS, and he never use it that way.
But please, continue to believe that he can do it, even though the manga disagrees with you

I think you really do know how unreasonable you're being. I won't pick on you much more about it because it's not like Sasuke needs to use an Amaterasu in the middle of a swordfight to put Bee down, I just wanted you to understand how poor of an argument you're making. But I'll say one last time, it's insane to assume Sasuke can show greater effort while using his MS jutsu, but you won't accept that he can do something miniscule like swinging a sword or blocking an attack while using Amaterasu. You asked to see him use Amaterasu in the middle of a fight. We showed him jumping, maintaining Susanoo, AND using Amaterasu all at once while making Danzou leap back on the defensive. That's fighting. Not dancing or talking. He was fighting. At close range. And he used an Amaterasu. You don't have an argument.

Such a shame though that Sasuke himself used, as a strategy, the same "assumption" that I used to prevent Itachi to fire Amaterasu.
Facts are facts, Amaterasu never was used when the user is engaged in close combat, it can be used when the user uses other jutsus while not being directly engaged ( Susano'o, the Great Fireball ) but it can't be used that way, because the manga says so.

The goukakyuu that Itachi and Sasuke clashed with was not at long range, and they were in the middle of a fight. And no it doesn't say anywhere in teh manga what you're claiming. Not once is it ever claimed that Amaterasu can't be used at close range. Infact the databook classifies it as a close range jutsu which is proof that the jutsu is effective in close quarters. And the worse part is that the instances we've shown are far more difficult than what you're asking us to show you Sasuke can do, and you're still clinging to your guns. That's not having faith in your argument, that's stubbornness. Are you really incapable of invisioning a scenario where Bee is hit with a Tsukuyomi at point blank range and then Amaterasu'd? Or Sasuke deflects Number 8 like he did already and cooks an Amaterasu before he lands so he just has to turn and open his eye? Or that he can't activate Susanoo while their swords are locked together in a raiton clash?

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't think of these scenarios, and that's the reason you were able to dismiss a close ranged Amaterasu.

[Uchiha_Blood]

I think you really do know how unreasonable you're being. I won't pick on you much more about it because it's not like Sasuke needs to use an Amaterasu in the middle of a swordfight to put Bee down, I just wanted you to understand how poor of an argument you're making. But I'll say one last time, it's insane to assume Sasuke can show greater effort while using his MS jutsu, but you won't accept that he can do something miniscule like swinging a sword or blocking an attack while using Amaterasu. You asked to see him use Amaterasu in the middle of a fight. We showed him jumping, maintaining Susanoo, AND using Amaterasu all at once while making Danzou leap back on the defensive. That's fighting. Not dancing or talking. He was fighting. At close range. And he used an Amaterasu. You don't have an argument.

I have an argument, it is you that simply do not understand.
Or we don't understand each other, it is possible. For close range fight, I intend something like this, or this, just to make an example of an Uchiha versus Bee.
But since you don't seem ( or, more like, don't want to understand ) I will paste all of Amaterasu's usage in part 2:

First Amaterasu - Itachi was spouting a fireball, but he was still as a statue, as in he didn't move, only spouted flames
Second Amaterasu - Still as a statue
Third Amaterasu - Still as a statue
Fourth Amaterasu - Here he was moving, true, but still it wasn't a battle, it was him and Danzou jumping, still not fighting, and, except for gravity, his body was again still, as in he didn't move, he let the gravity make him fall when he activated Amaterasu.
Before you go all ballistic on me, bear in mind that Sasuke was way below Danzou, even though Sasuke jumped to reach him.
Last Amaterasu - Itachi had to make some distance, and he was, as usual, still as a statue, as in he didn't move even to intercept Bee's sword.
And it wasn't controlled by Kabuto, Itachi was fighting with his own style.

He can do multi-tasking, true, but he can't do it while Bee keeps him occupied, like Itachi couldn't when Sasuke himself pressed him, or when Bee himself pressed him.
And before you say "Itachi was blind against Sasuke!" here we saw an immortal Itachi doing the same thing, creating some distance and trying to use Amaterasu.
Simple, undeniable truth.

The goukakyuu that Itachi and Sasuke clashed with was not at long range, and they were in the middle of a fight. And no it doesn't say anywhere in teh manga what you're claiming. Not once is it ever claimed that Amaterasu can't be used at close range. Infact the databook classifies it as a close range jutsu which is proof that the jutsu is effective in close quarters. And the worse part is that the instances we've shown are far more difficult than what you're asking us to show you Sasuke can do, and you're still clinging to your guns. That's not having faith in your argument, that's stubbornness. Are you really incapable of invisioning a scenario where Bee is hit with a Tsukuyomi at point blank range and then Amaterasu'd? Or Sasuke deflects Number 8 like he did already and cooks an Amaterasu before he lands so he just has to turn and open his eye? Or that he can't activate Susanoo while their swords are locked together in a raiton clash?

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't think of these scenarios, and that's the reason you were able to dismiss a close ranged Amaterasu.

It isn't clinging, is, as I showed, manga facts.
Again, continue to dumb down your favorite characters, Sasuke could've burned A to a crisp if he could easily use Amaterasu in close range, all he had to do was activate MS before he went at it with the Chidori, and Amaterasu him. He wanted to kill him ( since he aimed that Chidori at the heart ), and Amaterasu could've been the easier, quicker shot he had.
And no sir, no Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu one after the other, and I'm surprised that you may suggest it, since I always see you claiming that MS isn't a free-haxed doujutsu, but eye powers have ( had ) a huge cost in both chakra and eye usage.
After a Tsukuyomi, Sasuke and Itachi both couldn't use high level jutsus, for both eye blindness and chakra usage ( after Tsukuyomi, if you notice, Sasuke was panting heavily ), thus the moment he use Tsukuyomi all he can do it turn around and run, and he will be still Lariatted to death.

And please do not misunderstand, we're talking about the Second Scenario, not the First.
I gave Sasuke the win with Susano'o and full mastery of MS, as it is obvious.
Still in all honesty I can't say that the Sasuke that needed to be revived 2 times against Bee that was screwing around, with his team that attacked all at once, can win.
The manga says otherwise.

And still, what can Sasuke do if Bee goes on the offensive, since his Raitons are useless, his kenjutsu/taijutsu skills are inferior, and that he hasn't any defence from Number Eight or Lariat or his Kenjutsu style?
Say Sasuke is quickly engaged in close combat, and he can't even put some distance since Bee is faster, how can he likely win, if Tsukuyomi take a toll on him to the point where he holds his eye and can't do a thing after some seconds that he used it?

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood

I wanted to stop debating as its obviously imposible to change you mind on anything but some things... Well:

1- You keep comparing casual speed with full speed Raikage -> nonsense. Dodging or keeping up with his casual speed means nothing about REALLY keeping up with Raikage's full speed, something that only Minato and Naruto where able to do.

2-

Good lord, this is all a big crying. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, please

This is something i was expecting from a 12 years old... Wtf really?

3-

Evidence is a fact actually happened, assumption is a fact that someone thinks, based on his experience, or thoughts.

You still don't understand what the fact where. The facts where about what you need to dodge amaterasu, what you need to use Amaterasu and so on and not what you said there.

4-

Was Sasuke beaten by Bee in a Taijutsu/kenjutsu bout despite his Sharingan? Yes. So it is an evidence? Yes.
Did Sasuke beat Killer Bee alone? No, other than he needed Taka to survive Bee also managed to escape. So it is an evidence? I'm afraid not

Irrelevant as we got diferent factors involved here and there:

Sasuke is not injured, Sasuke is NOT tring to capture him, Sasuke is not the same idiot that belived he could take down Bee with nothing but charging in with NO sharingan on and fighting with no tactics. Aka no plot no jutsus, curently he is taking no risks, going full Susano from the start (he does not have it in his second scenario but that does not mean he is going to charge in like a moron). Also diferent skill here he can use Amaterasu as he feels like.

oh and about your NONSENSE that Sasuke can't use Amaterasu in a fight:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-31674-...apter-463.html

He is using it vs Raikage FULL speed attack, this is faster then anything Bee can pull in h2h or not.

More here:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-31674-...apter-463.html
And before Raikage can land (insane speed of coruse):
http://www.mangareader.net/93-32546-...apter-464.html

He can do the eye thing and manipulate the flames... Raikage was in the MIDDLE of his slam. This is RAIKAGE ffs.