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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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12. You may not vote on this poll
  • Kiba & Akamaru

    4 33.33%
  • Zabuza

    8 66.67%
  • 50/50, draw or impossible to tell.

    0 0%
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Thread: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Don't have enough time for another detailed reply right now, so please excuse me I keep it short. but for now let me just say this:

    1.Its not irrelevent how strong the clone is because it actually has to block the target first.

    2.Then the original needs to execute the water prison jutsu.

    3.And finally the clones have to be alive to channel the technique.

    If the clone goes pop (or in this case splash) because its unable to deflect Kiba's Gatsuga then steps 2 and 3 will never happen.
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  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkPrinceRevan's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    Don't have enough time for another detailed reply right now, so please excuse me I keep it short. but for now let me just say this:

    1.Its not irrelevent how strong the clone is because it actually has to block the target first.

    2.Then the original needs to execute the water prison jutsu.

    3.And finally the clones have to be alive to channel the technique.

    If the clone goes pop (or in this case splash) because its unable to deflect Kiba's Gatsuga then steps 2 and 3 will never happen.
    i think zabuza should be do abit better since kisame didnt have his sword when he made the clones so they had to use their arms to block instead

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @LnDRash

    When Naruto replicates himself he replicates his costume to, its not a ilusion. If his body is replicated by chakra, like water, fire and so on his smell needs to be replicated to.

    When you change chakra into something it takes that elements properties.
    A Shadowclone doesn't have the same properties as the original body. Otherwise they wouldn't go "poof" when they are hit, but instead they'd bleed, so its not a 100% exact copy. Its a mass of chakra with the outside appearance of its user. I've basically looked through half the manga and imho its neither provable nor disprovable if shadowclones emit body odour...

    The best I could find was this: http://www.mangareader.net/93-1-14/n...chapter-1.html

    Looks like the appearance of the clone doesn't automatically match the original, but instead the user has to mold the chakra into the desired form. If the clones appearance indeed depends on the users conception, then the same would apply for the smell: The user would need to adjust the chakra to create the desired smell... something which I think would be hard to pull off, since a person doesn't realy percept its own body odour.

    Henge no Jutsu for example also uses chakra to physically transform you into a different person or object, its not an illusion. Yet we know for a fact that even if Naruto turns into a shuriken, he wouldn't smell like a shuriken.

    Still, all of this is vague and like I said, its not provable or disprovable either way, so lets just leave it at that, unless you can come up with some solid proof which supports your claim.

    Quote Quote:
    Now about the piss. When Naruto replicates himself his costume (as i said above) is replicated... So it stands to reason that the "piss" would be replicated to. Whatever its on him get's replicated.
    I doubt it. Optical appearance yes, but not the actual properties. If Naruto's arm is frozen into a block of ice and he creates a clone, then the clone will probably have something which resembles the ice, but it can't be actual ice because you can't create ice without Ice Release, which would be a Kekkei Genkai.

    Quote Quote:
    How strong the clone is ... Well its irrelevant as long as it can do thet jutsu. The jutsu is going to be at 100%... It should stop anything that enters it. Well close to. If Neji can't get out with kaiten or Lee by oppening gates this guys should not be able to. Also yes i asume that because they never tried to do that vs Kisame is that they can't. Even Kakashi was just sitting inside like a nut.
    I already replied to this part in my earlier post, but in case you somehow manage to miss it (which I seriously doubt lol) here's the link: click

    Quote Quote:
    As for the trap... Not giving it to Kiba to open it... Open it yourself and let Kiba get traped or place it on the ground with a timer or something like that. Its not that hard to trap someone in a water thing... If Zabuza was able to trap KAKASHI WITH A SHARINGAN i am sorry to say this 2 don't have a chanse.
    Like I mentioned earlier, this jutsu needs a water source, so Zabuza can only use it on the river or use a Water Clone to execute it. Zabuza hasn't shown the ability to place water prisons like landmines, so it wouldn't be fair to grant him such an ability.

    Quote Quote:
    His sharingan gives him insane reaction times... That means its VERY hard to keep up with him. In his first fight Zabuza was able to keep up with him just fine and even defeat Kakashi... Yes he was defeated as the rest had to save his but.
    Yes, he beat Kakashi fair and square the first time... but they where fighting inside the mist right from the beginning up until Kakashi got traped into the water prison, which means the usefulness of Kakashi's Sharigan was seriously hampered. He couldn't realy use the prediction ability because he could only spot Zabuza at the very last moments before he strikes, leaving him minimal time to react.

    However, as soon as they where out of the mist, Zabuza got literally owned by Kakashi's Sharingan usage.

    Thats why I said this is hardly a speed feat... he wasn't overpowering Kakashi with his speed and taijutsu skill, but with his ability to fight effectively under conditions which grant only very limited visibility.

    @DarkPrinceRevan

    The same rules which apply for the clone would also apply for the sword, which means it would only be at 10% of its actual durability.
    Last edited by LnDRash; February 24, 2012 at 09:12 PM.
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  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkPrinceRevan's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    Yes, he beat Kakashi fair and square the first time... but they where fighting inside the mist right from the beginning up until Kakashi got traped into the water prison, which means the usefulness of Kakashi's Sharigan was seriously hampered. He couldn't realy use the prediction ability because he could only spot Zabuza at the very last moments before he strikes, leaving him minimal time to react.

    However, as soon as they where out of the mist, Zabuza got literally owned by Kakashi's Sharingan usage.

    Thats why I said this is hardly a speed feat... he wasn't overpowering Kakashi with his speed and taijutsu skill, but with his ability to fight effectively under conditions which grant only very limited visibility.

    @DarkPrinceRevan

    The same rules which apply for the clone would also apply for the sword, which means it would only be at 10% of its actual durability.
    so if even kakashi's sharingan didnt give him a clear edge over zabuza in the mist how much better should kiba do. not saying A beats C because he had an advantage over B, but the whole point of the mist is to give yourself an advantage over you opponent to neutralize most of their senses. kiba may be able to detect zabuza thru his smell but zabuza's a master of silent killing so he knows exactly how to exploit every advantage the mist gives him.

    and i kno the durability of the clones sword wont be on par with the original but they should be able to manage some protection but i dont expect zabuza to just win off his clones. i expect a win off strategy and placement of clones to give him openings to attack using his swords range.

  5. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Naruto_Rasengan's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Zabuza wins.

    Although Kiba would be able to presumably smell Zabuza's scent if he were to use Kirigakure no Jutsu it wouldn't really matter as Zabuza has extremely keen senses himself, and will have eliminated Kiba's vision which in the end could lead to his downfall. Zabuza can react to anything Kiba can do without vision through sound alone. His speed and taijutsu are on a level of that capable of facing Kakashi's Sharingan, and he has formidable stamina. Zabuza is quite versatile, and I believe he can best Kiba in every area.

    Kiba lacks range, while Zabuza has the advantage of being able to get in close and over power Kiba or trap him and Akamaru in Suirō no Jutsu as well as take some range and hit him with Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu and Suiton: Daibakufu no Jutsu. I don't really see Kiba being able to win at all, especially if Zabuza uses Mizu Bunshin as we're not sure Kiba could sense them thus allowing a sneak attack. Even if Kiba were to use Jinjū Konbi Henge: Sōtōrō I don't beleive Zabuza would be phased too much.

  6. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPrinceRevan View Post
    so if even kakashi's sharingan didnt give him a clear edge over zabuza in the mist how much better should kiba do. not saying A beats C because he had an advantage over B, but the whole point of the mist is to give yourself an advantage over you opponent to neutralize most of their senses. kiba may be able to detect zabuza thru his smell but zabuza's a master of silent killing so he knows exactly how to exploit every advantage the mist gives him.

    and i kno the durability of the clones sword wont be on par with the original but they should be able to manage some protection but i dont expect zabuza to just win off his clones. i expect a win off strategy and placement of clones to give him openings to attack using his swords range.
    Kiba's fighting style is actually compareable to Zabuza. Zabuza uses mist to block the opponents vision while Kiba does the same thing by using smoke bombs. Both of them can locate and fight opponents without actually seing them... so unlike for Kakashi, the Mist isn't a handycap at all for Kiba.

    The main difference between Kiba and Kakashi under the same visibility conditions is that Kakashi doesn't know from where Zabuza is going to strike. Zabuza could come from the left, from the right, from the front or the back or even from above. Kakashi can only react once Zabuza comes into his field of vision, at which point its almost to late for countermeasures, regardless of Sharingan or not.

    Kiba on the other hand always knows Zabuzas position, he can keep track of his opponents distance and direction just by smell, which means he will always know from where Zabuza is going to strike and when exactly he's comming closer to make his attack. Thats a huge advantage over Kakashi.

    Tactical usage of clones would also be much less effective then against Kakashi. Zabuza can't realy use clones as a distraction against Kiba, because even if we are going to assume the clones can't be distinguished from the original by smell, Kiba will notice there are suddenly two or more Zabuza's, and thus he instantly knows whats going on. He can just ignore the clone and instead launch an attack on the original, turning any sneak attack into a failure and possibly even catch Zabuza completely off-guard while he's still plotting his own attack.

    Quote Quote:
    His speed and taijutsu are on a level of that capable of facing Kakashi's Sharingan, and he has formidable stamina.
    Kiba's speed is better then Zabuza's. Databook says so and in this case I don't realy see a reson why we should doubt it. Add to that Kiba can increase his speed by using jutsu and he has the clear speed advantage. Stamina isn't an issue because A) Gatsuga hasn't been shown to be a very chakra intensive jutsu and B) Kiba has soldier pills which enable him to keep fighting for three days and three nights without rest. All thats left is Zabuza's advantage of being more skilled in Taijutsu, but that doesn't mean a lot considering Kiba's Taijutsu packs much more raw power.

    If Kiba goes for Garouga and Zabuza can't dodge it then he's pretty much screwed. Attempting to defend against the attack by using his sword will just result in the sword breaking and Zabuza being torn in half just like Sakon & Ukon, because I'am absolutely sure Kubikiribōchō isn't nearly as thick and solid as a Rashoumon Gate.
    Last edited by LnDRash; February 26, 2012 at 02:01 PM.
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  8. #22
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    @LnDRash

    First posts (where you had no time):

    1-3: Zabuza has a huge sword. Stoping that jutsu would not be a problem. He can also just jump out of the way and then when they hit the ground/tree do the jutsu. Not only that they would be in a mist having no idea where to go. They could hit a clone and then Zabuza would be free to trap them (with some other clone).

    Zabusa can fight Kakashi with a bloody sharingan and land hits:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-18-5/n...hapter-13.html

    Fast enough to trap Kakashi:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-18-7/n...hapter-13.html

    Sry but someone who can do that to kakashi would have no problem with Kiba... That is also not a normal water thing... It was a TRAP. Read what Kakashi states that the water is "heavy".
    Yes in the end its irrevant that the clone is only at 10% as they don't need more. What Kisame used vs those 3 are also WATER CLONES and bam they worked by bloking those dudes... Now Zabuza with a huge ass sword should have no dificulty in doing so (the clone).

    The second post:

    A SH DOES have the exact same properties. Working organs included, they can think, feel and so on. The diference is that the "magic" is dispeled when they get hit (don't ask me why or how). Naruto's clone can do anything the original can aside from taking punches. Hell they can EVEN GET INJURED. Remember when Naruto's clone that was helping Tsunade and the rest of kages vs Madara asked to be healed so he can keep fighting?

    Also the link you posted is not really valid as that is not a SC that is a ilusion.
    As for the rest if you would turn yourself into a shuriken IT IS a ilusion, same for the rest. People with sharingan and similar eyes can see you are not actualy a shuriken or whatever but not with a SC.

    Databook entry:

    Quote Quote:
    A ninjutsu that creates a true copy of something. What makes it different from the normal "Clone Technique"* is that it creates a clone with substance, making them able to perform physical attacks. It's a high grade ninjutsu, allowing the clone to various techniques of the user. It used to be Naruto's worst skill, but nowadays it's his favourite by far. The way he uses it is also extraordinarily clever.
    A true copy.

    Also what you asume by "depends on the users conception" its obviously wrong... As long as the user does the jutsu RIGH the clone would be identical to the original. There is no way Naruto can track all the bruises, change in hair, dirt and so on that apear on his body expecialy if we considering Naruto's "inteligence"... Neji would have had NO problem noticing this small changes as that is what he does best.

    Not only that they replicate even Ninja tools like a kunai (fight with Neji for one).

    Quote Quote:
    Still, all of this is vague and like I said, its not provable or disprovable either way, so lets just leave it at that, unless you can come up with some solid proof which supports your claim.
    I do belive the above is enough proof.

    Quote Quote:
    I doubt it. Optical appearance yes, but not the actual properties. If Naruto's arm is frozen into a block of ice and he creates a clone, then the clone will probably have something which resembles the ice, but it can't be actual ice because you can't create ice without Ice Release, which would be a Kekkei Genkai.
    Same for iron but aparently he can replicate Kunais... How about blood? Sweat? Costume? Spit (:P)? Organs? Yes this is a nice plot no jutsu but he can do it. Interesting fact is that you can hit with the Kunai and no go poof or if you punch a guy strong enough you don't go poof but if he hits you then... Well you go poof even if the applied force is the same lol.
    Even the dirt on Naruto is replicated. As it is said in the above Databook entry, a true clone... That can only be achived by really replicating stuff... Hell even the Kyuubi inside himself is somehow replicated...
    Quote Quote:
    I already replied to this part in my earlier post, but in case you somehow manage to miss it (which I seriously doubt lol) here's the link: click
    Noticied it, addresed it and that has nothing to do with what you posted this as answer to.
    The point was the water prison would be just as powerfull and that is allthat maters as triking kiba inside is not a problem if he can trick Kakashi.

    Quote Quote:
    Like I mentioned earlier, this jutsu needs a water source, so Zabuza can only use it on the river or use a Water Clone to execute it. Zabuza hasn't shown the ability to place water prisons like landmines, so it wouldn't be fair to grant him such an ability.
    He could create some water, aparently that is not dificult at all. Yamato created a damn waterfall to fload New York and only showed some dificulty in doing so. Creating a body of water should be no problem.
    Also that scroll loked somewhat basic and considering Zabuza was able to affect the water in that body of water to trap Kakashi even before the water prison it would actualy make sense for him to do a type of landmine with it.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, he beat Kakashi fair and square the first time... but they where fighting inside the mist right from the beginning up until Kakashi got traped into the water prison, which means the usefulness of Kakashi's Sharigan was seriously hampered. He couldn't realy use the prediction ability because he could only spot Zabuza at the very last moments before he strikes, leaving him minimal time to react.

    However, as soon as they where out of the mist, Zabuza got literally owned by Kakashi's Sharingan usage.

    Thats why I said this is hardly a speed feat... he wasn't overpowering Kakashi with his speed and taijutsu skill, but with his ability to fight effectively under conditions which grant only very limited visibility.
    And how is still relevant or do you asume he is not going to use the mist here? Aparently he goes with it off the bat so the fight it IS going to be inside the mist. So Kakashi reaction times and Kiba's can be compared here as both of them are inside the thing.

    All i said is asuming he is going to use the mist here to as not using it makes no sense.

    Quote Quote:
    The same rules which apply for the clone would also apply for the sword, which means it would only be at 10% of its actual durability.
    Kisame was able to block all 3 of them with water clones with his bare hands... Now using a sword would more then make up for that guy using that drill move.
    Also i am not even sure it is 10% of durability... It could be 10% chakra supply. Do you even know what the 10% is for? As WC Kisame's durability was good enough lol.

  9. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Zabusa can fight Kakashi with a bloody sharingan and land hits:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-18-5/n...hapter-13.html

    Fast enough to trap Kakashi:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-18-7/n...hapter-13.html

    Sry but someone who can do that to kakashi would have no problem with Kiba... That is also not a normal water thing... It was a TRAP. Read what Kakashi states that the water is "heavy".
    Yes in the end its irrevant that the clone is only at 10% as they don't need more. What Kisame used vs those 3 are also WATER CLONES and bam they worked by bloking those dudes... Now Zabuza with a huge ass sword should have no dificulty in doing so (the clone).
    As I said before the Sharingans usefulness was seriously hampered in this fight. Also, lets analyze what happened in those panels you posted:

    1. First Kakashi gets fooled by a water clone while the real Zabuza uses the Mist to sneak up on him from behind. This is not going to happen to Kiba because A) He would notice there's another Zabuza sneaking up on him, so even a dumbass like Kiba would come to the conclusion the opponent he just cornered most probably is just a fake. Even if we assume he doesn't notice it, there's still Akamaru around to watch his back.

    2. Kakashi noticed the real Zabuza in the very last moment so his options to respond to Zabuza's attack where very limited, and thus Zabuza managed to force him into a position where he could land a hit. This isn't going to happen to Kiba because the first step is a necessity for this to work. But even if we assume Kiba somehow got himself into the same disadvantageous situation, he still has Akamaru around to assault Zabuza and thus save his ass.

    3. Zabuza's speed while he cast the water prison on Kakashi isn't relevant because at that moment Kakashi was already slowed down by the heavy water. But I'll admit if he somehow manages to blast Kiba AND Akamaru into the river AND has at least one Clone around he should be able to trap them in water prisons. But I think the chances of this happening are slim... much slimmer then Kiba simply obliterating Zabuza with Garouga at least.

    Quote Quote:
    The second post:

    A SH DOES have the exact same properties. Working organs included, they can think, feel and so on.
    And what makes you come to this conclusion? Have we ever witnessed an autopsy of a Shadow, Water or whatever clone? We've already seen that chakra doesn't need a brain to think. Orochimaru in his Yamata form was able to think, just like Minato and Kushina, despite having no actual bodies anymore.

    Quote Quote:
    Hell they can EVEN GET INJURED. Remember when Naruto's clone that was helping Tsunade and the rest of kages vs Madara asked to be healed so he can keep fighting?
    Yes, but that only proves my other point: The amount of chakra used effects the strength and durability of the clones. Kisame, even in his 30% form, has a shitload more chakra then Zabuza and he's physically alot stronger then Zabuza too. Not to metion his Durability feats like blocking Gai's Leaf Hurricane with his bare forearm. Compared to Kisame's clones Zabuza's clones would be weaklings.

    Quote Quote:
    Also the link you posted is not really valid as that is not a SC that is a ilusion.
    No, its not an illusion, Iruka outright says they are going to practice bunshin no jutsu.

    Quote Quote:
    As for the rest if you would turn yourself into a shuriken IT IS a ilusion, same for the rest. People with sharingan and similar eyes can see you are not actualy a shuriken or whatever but not with a SC.
    Nope, its not an illusion. If it was an illusion it would be labeled as Genjutsu, but instead it is a Ninjutsu. Gamabunta wanted Naruto to transform him into the Kyuubi because he wanted CLAWS. If it was just an illusion those claws would have been useless, because in reality he would still be using his toad hands to grab Shukaku.

    Also about Henge no Jutsu:

    "The transformation of a skilled shinobi will be exactly like the genuine article, so it will be impossible to tell the two apart."

    Notice something?

    Its supposed to be impossible to tell apart... same thing which is said about Shadow Clones, but we've seen this doesn't hold true before Kiba's nose.

    Quote Quote:
    Not only that they replicate even Ninja tools like a kunai (fight with Neji for one).
    Its solid chakra which looks like iron, but it isn't. You can put a real Kunai into a forge, smelt it and smith it into another shape. If you try the same thing with a Bunshin Kunai then the Kunai will just go "poof"

    Quote Quote:
    I do belive the above is enough proof.
    Sorry, but still not convinced... not that it matters though because I've also replied about what would happen taking into account Kiba can't tell apart clones from the original.

    Quote Quote:
    He could create some water, aparently that is not dificult at all. Yamato created a damn waterfall to fload New York and only showed some dificulty in doing so. Creating a body of water should be no problem.
    The thing is some puddle wouldn't be enough to replicate the same feat as against Kakashi. Doesn't matter if the water in the puddle is heavy, its not enough to engulf and immobilize Kiba. So please answer me this:

    1. How is Zabuza going to prepare such traps if he can't hide from Kiba and Akamaru?
    2. How is Zabuza going to hide enough water to engulf Kiba and Akamaru without Doton to make holes into the ground or some sort of Sealing Technique to compress the water into a certain point?

    Quote Quote:
    Also that scroll loked somewhat basic and considering Zabuza was able to affect the water in that body of water to trap Kakashi even before the water prison it would actualy make sense for him to do a type of landmine with it.
    Its still an ability he hasn't shown. Otherwise why aren't all ninjas carrying around generic scrolls storing their Ninjutsu just like Tenten her weapons instead of wasting their chakra mid-battle to cast them?

    Quote Quote:
    And how is still relevant or do you asume he is not going to use the mist here? Aparently he goes with it off the bat so the fight it IS going to be inside the mist. So Kakashi reaction times and Kiba's can be compared here as both of them are inside the thing.
    It is relevant because the Mist was a clear disadvantage for Kakashi, same cannot be said about Kiba. As I said earlier unlike Kakashi, Kiba will always have a good picture about whats going on inside the mist. Its incomparably easier to defend against an enemy if you know from where and when he will strike.

    If Zabuza appears out of nowhere behind Kakashi and Kakashi has to notice him, turn around and then react, then he's at a clear disadvantage compared to Kiba, who will already face into the right direction and also knows when Zabuza is comming closer.

    Part one Kiba, who's senses where not nearly as developed as in part 2, has already proven fighting at poor visibility is actually advantegous to him and its something he likes to exploit by using smokebombs. Click

    Its the same damn thing... Zabuza can fight just by hearing and Kiba can fight just by using smell. Kiba will fare much better in the mist then Kakashi, who's relying heavily on his Sharingan. So just because Zabuza has some nice feats against Kakashi inside the mist, it doesn't mean he can reproduce those feats against Kiba under the same conditions.
    Last edited by LnDRash; February 27, 2012 at 12:03 PM.
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  10. #24
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    @LnDRash

    First off Kiba's nose is IRRELEVANT inside the mist.
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-34-19/...hapter-29.html

    Kakashi's hunting/traking dogs that have the best nose of ALL THE DOGS can't find him in the mist and Kakashi needed to put his blood on him (and lots of it to). Also those where lots of dogs. Also the dogs had to come from UNDERGROUND to tag him...

    So Kiba is going to be in the same boat as Kakashi but only in a worse position as:

    1-He is not even close as skilled as Kakashi.
    2-He is not even close as tactical/planer/smart as Kakashi.
    3-He does not have even close to the same number/options of jutsus as Kakashi.
    4-He does not have genjutsu.
    5-He does not have a sharingan.
    6-He can't do clones like Kakashi.
    7-Kakashi using clones to wach his back is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using that dog of Kiba's.


    Because of the above most of your post is not really valid as he is not getting ANYTHING with his sense of smell.

    Quote Quote:
    And what makes you come to this conclusion? Have we ever witnessed an autopsy of a Shadow, Water or whatever clone? We've already seen that chakra doesn't need a brain to think. Orochimaru in his Yamata form was able to think, just like Minato and Kushina, despite having no actual bodies anymore.
    A chakra system that the clones have need a working body for it(not the same thing as just chakra). Also they clearly have eyes that can be blinded, ears that can be dazed with strong sounds and so on.

    What Oro does is using another host body as a medium. He is not existing himself as pure chakra alone. Something similar has Minato and Kushina done by placing parts of themselfs inside Naruto. If Naruto would have died you can be sure Kushina and Minato would have been gone to.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, but that only proves my other point: The amount of chakra used effects the strength and durability of the clones. Kisame, even in his 30% form, has a shitload more chakra then Zabuza and he's physically alot stronger then Zabuza too. Not to metion his Durability feats like blocking Gai's Leaf Hurricane with his bare forearm. Compared to Kisame's clones Zabuza's clones would be weaklings.
    You don't really belive that a 10% clone of a 30% clone is stronger then the original Zabuza? He could use his main body to tank with his sword and then just use clones to trap them (even if he get's some minor damage). Take into account the sword to.
    Also i said if Kisame can block with his bare hands then Zabuza can do so with his sword (clone can be created with swords).

    Quote Quote:
    No, its not an illusion, Iruka outright says they are going to practice bunshin no jutsu.
    Its an ilusion type of clone. Nobody from the kids could do a REAL show clone. That was a super advanced jutsu and Naruto got to genin because he learned it. Those are clones with no real body aka ilusions type of clones (no idea how to put it exacly but i hope you can understand it :P).
    Quote Quote:
    Nope, its not an illusion. If it was an illusion it would be labeled as Genjutsu, but instead it is a Ninjutsu. Gamabunta wanted Naruto to transform him into the Kyuubi because he wanted CLAWS. If it was just an illusion those claws would have been useless, because in reality he would still be using his toad hands to grab Shukaku.
    Not ilusion like in genjutsu but you do have a point about the claws. But Naruto turning into FRS is not exacly a FRS so it depends i what example you use lol.

    Quote Quote:
    Its supposed to be impossible to tell apart... same thing which is said about Shadow Clones, but we've seen this doesn't hold true before Kiba's nose.
    Because the piss was present and nobody replicated that. The point is if he can replicate all other materials on him why not the piss? Also take note about the skill part something that Naruto was NOT back then.

    Quote Quote:
    Its solid chakra which looks like iron, but it isn't. You can put a real Kunai into a forge, smelt it and smith it into another shape. If you try the same thing with a Bunshin Kunai then the Kunai will just go "poof"
    But it cuts and acts just like the original.
    Quote Quote:
    Sorry, but still not convinced... not that it matters though because I've also replied about what would happen taking into account Kiba can't tell apart clones from the original.
    Not really relevant as Zabuza is not little stupid kid Naruto to not notice piss on himself and not use some water to clear it off. Of course there is no way Kiba even get's to mark him before he get's decapitated in the mist.

    Quote Quote:
    The thing is some puddle wouldn't be enough to replicate the same feat as against Kakashi. Doesn't matter if the water in the puddle is heavy, its not enough to engulf and immobilize Kiba. So please answer me this:

    1. How is Zabuza going to prepare such traps if he can't hide from Kiba and Akamaru?
    2. How is Zabuza going to hide enough water to engulf Kiba and Akamaru without Doton to make holes into the ground or some sort of Sealing Technique to compress the water into a certain point?
    A little puddle? How about a lake...

    1-He can hide and very easy.
    2-Unless you are going with a complete flat terain that would give a clear advantage to one side there should be terain denivalations that would permit that. Also just use a wave type of attack or a water dragon or whatever. This people can hole water in "solid" form.

    Quote Quote:
    Its still an ability he hasn't shown. Otherwise why aren't all ninjas carrying around generic scrolls storing their Ninjutsu just like Tenten her weapons instead of wasting their chakra mid-battle to cast them?
    As i said not scrolls exacly. Just set traps like that he used vs Kakashi but triggering it diferently.

    Quote Quote:
    Part one Kiba, who's senses where not nearly as developed as in part 2, has already proven fighting at poor visibility is actually advantegous to him and its something he likes to exploit by using smokebombs. Click
    Kiba was clearly clubering Naruto because of his sense of smell and that is not working here.
    Last edited by xXan; February 28, 2012 at 06:07 AM.

  11. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member RezzieThaRapper's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    in part two wasn't it stated that Kiba's sense of smell had surpassed the ninja dogs
    I have an opinionDon't hate me for it...

  12. #26
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by RezzieThaRapper View Post
    in part two wasn't it stated that Kiba's sense of smell had surpassed the ninja dogs
    Here is the link:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-369-13...apter-364.html
    He needs to focus to do it.

    The thing is Zabuza probably has a way to block or camouflage his smell. Zabuza was some 10 meters tops from Kakashi. I see no reason to asume Kiba can smell Zabuza if those dogs could not and a smell tag was needed for Zabuza to be detected. If Zabuza really had a smell its not really posible for those dogs to not sense him given the distance. They where traking Sasuke with no problem up to the point the BOOM whent off.

    Also i like to add that you can just side steap his attacks lol:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-400-12...apter-395.html

    I am really not impresed lol. For Naruto he at least had to go intangible.
    Last edited by xXan; February 28, 2012 at 06:56 AM.

  13. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Here is the link:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-369-13...apter-364.html
    He needs to focus to do it.
    He had to focus to find a target multiple miles away who's track was completely lost... on top of that Sasuke was even in some city at that point of time, so his smell got even clouded by dozens of other people walking around. No way in hell do I believe he needs the same kind of focus if the target is just a few meters away from him and there are no other sources of smell to distract him.

    Quote Quote:
    The thing is Zabuza probably has a way to block or camouflage his smell. Zabuza was some 10 meters tops from Kakashi. I see no reason to asume Kiba can smell Zabuza if those dogs could not and a smell tag was needed for Zabuza to be detected. If Zabuza really had a smell its not really posible for those dogs to not sense him given the distance. They where traking Sasuke with no problem up to the point the BOOM whent off.
    I do. Those dogs didn't know Zabuza's smell and they where fighting near a village. Even the bridge was occupied by multiple people they where not familiar with, and those dogs couldn't afford to pick some target by random because Kakashi had only one chance to pull this trick off. Thus they needed a smell they are familiar with to find the right target for sure.

    Quote Quote:
    Because the piss was present and nobody replicated that. The point is if he can replicate all other materials on him why not the piss? Also take note about the skill part something that Naruto was NOT back then.
    No, there wasn't any piss present in his fight against Naruto. He used the piss the first time against Sakon & Ukon to nail them with Garouga, which specifically requires this to be done because of High Speed Rotation blablabla. The piss only serves the purpose to let him chase his target like a homing missile.

    Also, if there are any jutsu part one Naruto has mastered then its Henge and Kagebunshin. He had more then enough time to practice both at once by using Harem No Jutsu... and on top of that by now we know he gets back all the experience his clones make once he releases them. So every time he turned his clones into a crowd of naked girls, he was significantly increasing his Henge No Jutsu skills without even noticing it.

    Quote Quote:
    Also i like to add that you can just side steap his attacks lol:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-400-12...apter-395.html
    Yeah... but thats the same as saying Naruto sucks because he stumbled over Zetsu's roots or tried to slam a Rasengan into Edo Nagato. He even left Akamaru behind, who otherwise could have nailed Tobi from the other side while he was distracted by Kiba (well not realy because he would have gone intangible... but that doesn't matter here)

    Quote Quote:
    I am really not impresed lol. For Naruto he at least had to go intangible.
    Then take a second look at the page you posted and this one: Click

    While I agree he made a fool out of himself, his Kiba Drill Breaker (Aka. Gatsuga) completely pierced that thick tree and even the ground. Its obvious he improved in part II and if this jutsu hits then its an instant kill... (and thats not even Garouga but regular Gatsuga).

    Quote Quote:
    A little puddle? How about a lake...
    I said a puddle because thats the only thing Kiba could step into by mistake. Any larger source of water would be blatantly noticeable. Unlike Yamato Zabuza doesn't have doton to manipulate the terrain. And I thought its obvious where they are fighting?

    From the OP: They are fighting where Team 7 encountered Zabuza for the first time.

    That would be a road near a river and a forest... so unless they shift the battle deep into the forest (which we don't even know how it looks like) Zabuza will have a hard time hiding any traps in places Kiba is actually going to step.

    Also... a lake? Sorry but Zabuza isn't Kisame. Creating a lake will deplete a serious amount of his chakra... then add to this something like ~2 Mizu Bunshins which would take another 20% and his chakra should be at the very least nearly depleted.
    Last edited by LnDRash; February 28, 2012 at 12:50 PM.
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  15. #28
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    @LnDRash

    Quote Quote:
    He had to focus to find a target multiple miles away who's track was completely lost... on top of that Sasuke was even in some city at that point of time, so his smell got even clouded by dozens of other people walking around. No way in hell do I believe he needs the same kind of focus if the target is just a few meters away from him and there are no other sources of smell to distract him.
    There is a flaw in your logic. Even if we asume he can sense ANY smell coming from Zabuza when super pro dogs only 10m or so (same distance kiba would be) can't sense any and a tag is needed he would need the same level of concentration to do it. He needs to OVERPERFORM the dogs in order to do that and for that he needs to focus, chanel chakra to his nose and keep that handsign...


    Quote Quote:
    I do. Those dogs didn't know Zabuza's smell and they where fighting near a village. Even the bridge was occupied by multiple people they where not familiar with, and those dogs couldn't afford to pick some target by random because Kakashi had only one chance to pull this trick off. Thus they needed a smell they are familiar with to find the right target for sure.
    Nop, the dogs where traking Sasuke trough a city to and they had no problem in doing so. Also Kiba himself and would have no idea what is Zabuza's smell before Zabuza would actuay get in close and considering he starts at range with fog...

    You REALLY overestimate Kiba's senses.. He NEEDS that focus under normal circumstances...
    He can't tell its Naruto:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-80-16/...hapter-75.html
    Only a stupid henge. The next time he was able to tell its him because he was actualy focusing... The diference is Zabuza can't be smelled by pro dogs....

    Now whatever people where on that bridge a long time ago is not really relevant as that smell would be way stronger coming from Zabuza (if any of those people smell would even be there). Not only that but you don't see Kakashi just putting his hand on Zabuza and then using Zabuza odors left on his hand(or some other material) to track him.
    No Kakashi had to mark him.

    Now also Kakashi allowed himself to be cut 2x times and badly. Once should have been enough but no. Also dogs know when a target moves by its smell... The ONLY think with smell that would be moving would be Zabuza... It makes 0 sense for them to not be able to track him IF there was any smell coming from Zabuza.

    Also its interesting you are giving 1 chanse to Kakashi to locate him with the dogs and actualy doing something but you don't have the same problem with kiba lol.

    Quote Quote:
    No, there wasn't any piss present in his fight against Naruto. He used the piss the first time against Sakon & Ukon to nail them with Garouga, which specifically requires this to be done because of High Speed Rotation blablabla. The piss only serves the purpose to let him chase his target like a homing missile.

    Also, if there are any jutsu part one Naruto has mastered then its Henge and Kagebunshin. He had more then enough time to practice both at once by using Harem No Jutsu... and on top of that by now we know he gets back all the experience his clones make once he releases them. So every time he turned his clones into a crowd of naked girls, he was significantly increasing his Henge No Jutsu skills without even noticing it.
    No i mean nobody replicate the pis with SC when that was used on X guy.

    Its diferent from knowing how to do henge and diferently to know about piss and how Kiba is using that to track him.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah... but thats the same as saying Naruto sucks because he stumbled over Zetsu's roots or tried to slam a Rasengan into Edo Nagato. He even left Akamaru behind, who otherwise could have nailed Tobi from the other side while he was distracted by Kiba (well not realy because he would have gone intangible... but that doesn't matter here)
    Not really... That link showes that Kiba with no marks on his target (piss) had creap targeting on that move. This means that if he does not get a piss on Zabuza he would get himself killed doing that.

    Quote Quote:
    While I agree he made a fool out of himself, his Kiba Drill Breaker (Aka. Gatsuga) completely pierced that thick tree and even the ground. Its obvious he improved in part II and if this jutsu hits then its an instant kill... (and thats not even Garouga but regular Gatsuga).
    Still not impresed with piercing a tree lol. Buildings, trees and other stuff like that have close to no durability compared to humans... Stuff that makes holes into mountains and they do 0 visible damage to a human (Kakuzu and FRS)... Aside from the dust marks and whatever... Hell Robot realm got ripped to peices with 1 SM Rasengan but the other realm that got hit with 2 of them at the same time where in 1 piece... Yes Kishi uses the enviroment to show how cool it is (or robots) but usualy holds back imensly on humans.
    Going to need better feats to belive he can do shit to Zabuza as long as Zabuza blocks with his sword (that is asuming he can even hit him). Hell Deva used a ST that own multiple houses around himself and Kakashi climbed out of debris like nothing happened :P

    Quote Quote:
    I said a puddle because thats the only thing Kiba could step into by mistake. Any larger source of water would be blatantly noticeable. Unlike Yamato Zabuza doesn't have doton to manipulate the terrain. And I thought its obvious where they are fighting?

    From the OP: They are fighting where Team 7 encountered Zabuza for the first time.

    That would be a road near a river and a forest... so unless they shift the battle deep into the forest (which we don't even know how it looks like) Zabuza will have a hard time hiding any traps in places Kiba is actually going to step.

    Also... a lake? Sorry but Zabuza isn't Kisame. Creating a lake will deplete a serious amount of his chakra... then add to this something like ~2 Mizu Bunshins which would take another 20% and his chakra should be at the very least nearly depleted.
    Oh i missed that part of the op my bad... Then its even worse for Kiba... If he can put Kakashi in that river thing there is nothing you can do to prove to me Kiba is going to do better.
    As for the lake.. Considering how much water Yamato created ... Yes i do belive something like a small lake is of no problem to him.

    As for Water Clones they should cost less chakra then SC. Kakashi himself knows how to do SC but prefers lighting clones. Perhaps its something more closer to Itachi's crow clones.

    Now let's asume all your hypothesis are correct... Then you know what? Its the same bloody think.. What you stated:
    Clones don't have the original smell. So Zabuza creates a clone and bam dead Kiba as that is just water and no smell aside from that. Now don't tell me a clone would have the originals smell but not the piss as that would make 0 sense. Smell is smell and its irrelevant where its coming fromg. If one can replicate the smell from sweat i see no reason why he can't do that from piss.

    Hell Kiba can charge with his spinning move and Zabuza just creates in front of him a water prison and Kiba is finished. Kiba has no idea where he is spinning into. Something like this:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-57131-...apter-508.html
    The diference is that Kiba with his spining attack would go way deeper...
    Last edited by xXan; February 29, 2012 at 06:06 AM.

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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post

    First off Kiba's nose is IRRELEVANT inside the mist.
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-34-19/...hapter-29.html
    What about this one ?
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/364/13 ?
    Quote Quote:
    LoL Kotoamatsuki pwn Sasuke to be a bunny

  17. #30
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Kiba & Akamaru vs. Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @LnDRash

    There is a flaw in your logic. Even if we asume he can sense ANY smell coming from Zabuza when super pro dogs only 10m or so (same distance kiba would be) can't sense any and a tag is needed he would need the same level of concentration to do it. He needs to OVERPERFORM the dogs in order to do that and for that he needs to focus, chanel chakra to his nose and keep that handsign...

    Nop, the dogs where traking Sasuke trough a city to and they had no problem in doing so. Also Kiba himself and would have no idea what is Zabuza's smell before Zabuza would actuay get in close and considering he starts at range with fog...

    You REALLY overestimate Kiba's senses.. He NEEDS that focus under normal circumstances...
    He can't tell its Naruto:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-80-16/...hapter-75.html
    Only a stupid henge. The next time he was able to tell its him because he was actualy focusing... The diference is Zabuza can't be smelled by pro dogs....

    Now whatever people where on that bridge a long time ago is not really relevant as that smell would be way stronger coming from Zabuza (if any of those people smell would even be there). Not only that but you don't see Kakashi just putting his hand on Zabuza and then using Zabuza odors left on his hand(or some other material) to track him.
    No Kakashi had to mark him.
    What are you talking about?

    The dogs appeared for the first time on-panel during this fight. I'am not talking about any other persons who crossed that bridge in the past but about multiple people actually being on the bridge when those dogs where summoned... and since it was the first time they have been summoned they didn't know the smell of any of those people.

    -Zabuza
    -Sasuke
    -Sakura
    -Naruto
    -Haku
    -Tazuna
    -Whole village full of people at the end of the bridge.

    For those dogs any of those unfamiliar smells could have been Zabuza, thus a smell-tag was necessary.

    Quote Quote:
    Also its interesting you are giving 1 chanse to Kakashi to locate him with the dogs and actualy doing something but you don't have the same problem with kiba lol.
    Because its completely different. Kakashi wanted those dogs to surprise and immobilize Zabuza, something which wouldn't have been possible if those dogs had already exposed themselves. Zabuza was feeling save inside the mist and was mocking Kakashi, if he knew about those dogs he would have had his guard up and the whole tactic would have gone out of the window.

    Kiba on the other hand doesn't need to aim for a single opportunity because he himself can track down Zabuza any time he wants, Kakashi without his dogs would have been helpless.

    No i mean nobody replicate the pis with SC when that was used on X guy.

    Quote Quote:
    Not really... That link showes that Kiba with no marks on his target (piss) had creap targeting on that move. This means that if he does not get a piss on Zabuza he would get himself killed doing that.
    Just like it shows Naruto has crap walking abilities because he stumbled over Zetsu's roots. Tobi was fooling around with everyone present and Sakura even lectures Kiba for going out on his own. That whole situation was just made for comedy and in a serious fight Kiba would never leave Akamaru behind to go out on his own.

    Quote Quote:
    Still not impresed with piercing a tree lol. Buildings, trees and other stuff like that have close to no durability compared to humans... Stuff that makes holes into mountains and they do 0 visible damage to a human (Kakuzu and FRS)...
    I agree Zabuza can probably block it with his sword, but a clean hit would rip a hole into him. But thats not even the point... the point is if it pierces a tree thats as thick as a man tall and then even leaves a crater in the ground, then a 10% water clone goes splash... there's nothing to discuss imho.

    As for Water Clones they should cost less chakra then SC. Kakashi himself knows how to do SC but prefers lighting clones. Perhaps its something more closer to Itachi's crow clones.

    Water clones use 10% of the users chakra, while shadow clones devide all the remaining chakra evenly. Which means two water clones would use up 20% of whatever he has. Add to that your lake and at least ~70% chakra are gone.

    Now let's asume all your hypothesis are correct... Then you know what? Its the same bloody think.. What you stated:
    Clones don't have the original smell. So Zabuza creates a clone and bam dead Kiba as that is just water and no smell aside from that.

    Why would Zabuza making a clone result in a dead Kiba just because he can't smell it? The clone is much weaker then the actual Zabuza and since it doesn't have any smell he knows instantly its fake... so he can simply ignore it and go for the real one or he can dispose of it on the fly by using Gatsuga.

    Quote Quote:
    Hell Kiba can charge with his spinning move and Zabuza just creates in front of him a water prison and Kiba is finished. Kiba has no idea where he is spinning into. Something like this:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-57131-...apter-508.html
    The diference is that Kiba with his spining attack would go way deeper...
    Gai was already severely weakened at that point because he used the 7th Gate. There are multiple panels adressing this just a few moments later. The water was also pushing him away and not sucking him in, so you can either chose:

    1.Zabuza makes the water in such a way that it sucks Kiba in, in which case he will end up with a hole in hist chest (and afterwards he explodes and the explosions explode too )

    2. Or Zabuza makes the water repel Kiba, which means nothing else will happen then the attack getting blocked.

    And last but not least, something about Kiba's sense of smell again:

    Quote Quote:
    You REALLY overestimate Kiba's senses.. He NEEDS that focus under normal circumstances...
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-46747-...apter-481.html <- not focusing
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-82-10/...hapter-77.html <- not focusing
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-80-17/...hapter-75.html <- Akamaru was near Naruto and Kiba even outright says he wasn't paying attention, also keep in mind this is part one Kiba.
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