I think Kenichi is at the lowest level of expert class, he ascended the disciple class level when he sparred with Tanaka IMO, penguin wasn't all the superior to Miu and Kenichi in the first place. As soon as they started to work together they defeated him rather quickly. For a guy who supposed be close to "master class" the Miu & Kenichi don't seem that far behind him. I bet with another year of intense training Kenichi will probably be at his level or higher. Also, we have yet to see the strength of One Shadows disciple, but i strongly believe his strength exceeds the disciple class and is somewhere within the expert class.
p.s: Now Sakaki is going to have to do a U-turn once he realizes Kenichi is ok, and in that time frame Hongou will die or most likely get seriously injured.
I wouldn't say that Kenichi is at a low expert class. I would suggest he is rather close to average expert. Actually the same Elder said that Kenichi's Korui Nui (the move he used to finish the masked guy and Koukin) can take down any person in Disciple class and Kenichi has several other strong moves. Miu is also obviously in expert class. She was always stronger than Kenichi and in this Arc she also got stronger by learning Silat, so it's obvious that when they teamed up they took the guy down.
Also we should consider that the guy was obviously brainwashed as Miu was. Also he took several strong moves from Kenichi that not all strong disciples can take.
I don't think kenichi is at the middle-average expert level just yet. Wouldn't it be far too soon for that?
The range within the expert class is the largest of all, that implies that the difference between a low level expert and a high level one is larger than the difference between low level and high level disciples or masters (although interestingly it does not seem like there is a defined top to the master class). If what the elder said stands, kenichi could actually grow a significant deal and still not be out of the low level expert class simply because of how wide the range is supposed to be. Heck, miu has proven beyond reasonable doubt that she is more than significantly stronger than kenichi and even then she admited she would not have a chance against tanaka and she certainly had not a chance in hell against pengulu (who is anywhere between the middle and high level expert class). Heck, for all we know even miu is not even average expert (I think she would have had to fare a bit better if she was indeed at the middle expert class at least).
Ok, I agree that Miu and Kenichi might not be at an average expert class, but still I believe they might be quite close to this stage.
For Kenichi to get there I believe he needs to get more training. He needs to learn several new Super Moves from Elder. Actually two or three Super Moves from Elder might actually get him quite far. Of course not to the point, where Tanaka stands right now, but still to the point, where he will surpass Miu and be at least a match for Tanaka.
Also about what you said about the margin among Experts is wider, than among Masters... I don't think so. Remember that the very same Sakaki toyed with a Master in previous Arc and then practically one-shotted him and the guy wasn't even the weakest type of Masters like Fortuna. And also Sakaki isn't among the strongest. If we assume that Jenazad is weaker than Elder, than he is quite far from the same Elder, because Jenazad stated that even Sakaki and Hongou in a team with a full health might not be enough to take Jenazad down... So I believe the biggest margin is among Masters, but still obviously Experts are also in different leagues sometimes.
Honestly we may never see Kenichi surpass Miu even at the rate he's going. As strong as Kenichi has become his fight with Miu in this arc proved he's not even in the same area code as her. She's on a average expert class level compared to Kenichi whose on a low expert class level IMO. He'll get stronger and learn better techniques, but she'll always be a few steps ahead of him, Matsuena will make sure of that.
Kenichi= low level expert
Miu=average level expert
Penguin=between high & super level expert
Tanaka= super level expert
Kajima Satomi=high level expert??
(All levels within the Expert class IMO)
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; February 28, 2012 at 02:02 PM.
What happened to Imperial Scans?
I don't see any particular reason for kenichi to surpass miu either. Even in the scenario where he learns several supermoves he would only surpass miu under the assumption that miu does not learn new techniques or becomes stronger. Kenichi has failed to surpass miu not because he hasn't grown to be as strong as miu was at the start of the manga (which might or might not be the case and she as grown stronger from that point anyways) but rather because miu is a talented martial artist who has continued to grow throughout the manga. The minimim requirement for kenichi to surpass miu within the mid term is for him to have an actually superior growth rate (as miu is strong and growing stronger every day) and based on what we know odds are severely (to say the least) against kenichi considering he is inferior in terms of talent, aptitude and attitude to miu. The long term is an entirely different matter however that would probably be outside the scope of the manga.
So the assumption is that Kenichi will never surpass Miu during the course of the manga?
That's not something I buy into at all, especially considering the manga is called History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi. Saying we'll never see him reach master class is one thing but to say he won't at least be the # 1 disciple at the end doesn't really jive with how things have progressed. All those talents and prodigies he's surpassed due to hard work, and there's no way he can surpass Miu with the same mindset? Miu doesn't up her level at the same rate as Kenichi. If she did she'd be at the very least a Tanaka level expert at this point after a 2 year period. No matter how much Miu improves, she's not widening the gap faster than Kenichi is closing it. I'd say by the time they graduate high school, Kenichi will have bridged the gap completely.
Also, saying Miu is leagues above Kenichi at this point is a bit of a stretch too. Sure she's better, but she's not a great deal better. Remember Kenichi just recently surpassed her in eyesight. I expect that trend to continue. I'd say the gap between the two of them is less than the gap between Kenichi and Shou when they fought. Any evidence this fight gave us in regards to the current gap between them is circumstantial at best. Kenichi never fought at 100 percent (no mubyoshi, no korui nuki and no strongest combo 2 or 3)and he couldn't use Ryuusui Seikuken to its full potential. He may not be in the same neighborhood as Miu but he's certainly in the same area code.
Last edited by kenichi23; February 28, 2012 at 08:26 PM.
Plus, as everyone knows, bad guys have a tendency to overestimate their abilities. "Why noone can possibly be as uber as I am even though for the past few years I've just been sitting on my ass & indulging myself. The fact that I haven't actually had anyone capable of a real challenge step up & I have only been one shotting people doesn't mean that I've lost my edge!" (Well yeah Jez does actually fight the top student but you can't say that there isn't a MASSIVE difference in skill.)
OK lets not forget Kenichi's goal here
Kenichi's number goal for learning martial arts and staying at Ryozanpaku right now is to become STRONG ENOUGH to protect Miu http://www.mangareader.net/337-44763...apter-367.html You don't have to surpass that person in order to protect that person as proved in this arc when Miu was about to be killed multiple times by penguin, but Kenichi was there to stop him. Kenichi surpassing miu isn't likely considering their growth rate is probably the same meaning Miu will be on another level by the time Kenichi has become strong enough to reach the level she was previously on. Kenichi will continue grow strong enough to protect miu as she grows stronger too, but surpassing her is an entirely different story.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; February 29, 2012 at 12:07 PM.
Also, how wasn't miu leagues above kenichi? We saw at the very least just that and kenichi was not even fooling around. The sole reason he is even alive and did not get the worthless fodder treatment was because miu actually had enough inner strength to contain herself at the very last second. Kenichi could hardly hold his ground for seconds at a time and even when he did he did so solely because he was familiar with miu's breathing and whatnot... More so, even when he actually attacked using his strongest combo and a few other things which are generally useful she still had no trouble whatsoever and blocked each attack. There are specific points where kenichi is unquestionably superior to miu (maybe) which are physical strength(specially lower body strength) and resistance to punishment/stamina. What the manga showed is that miu is unquestionably quite faster than kenichi, it showed that her technique is better and the notion that kenichi has better special techniques than her is biased and founded solely on the fact that he uses ryusui seikuken and kuroi nuki. Miu has her own answer to ruisui seikuken as she showed during the fight between akira and sakaki (even if kenichi has better sight miu is still faster and has better technique) and the actual techniques she has shown have always been rather unique (remember the DoD tournament and her fight with the atlantis girl). Seriously, kenichi did not survive his fight against miu because of his skills (if he had to rely on his skills he would have died some 2 or 3 times and miu would have still not broken a sweat), he survived because the author made miu simply ooze just about enough sheer awesomeness and echi that she actually resisted having her memory erased and being brainwashed by the most insane master the manga has graced itself to show through sheer willpower. Heck, it wasn't even too long ago (nor significantly after the fight with kano) that kenichi barely made miu break a sweat during simple sparing matches. This whole arc has categoricaly proven that miu is a lot stronger than kenichi and he is not any close to actually matching, let alone surpassing her. Of course, over the course of 2 years who knows what might happen over that time..... Still, miu is being trained by her grandfather (unless we assume that her "fuurinji style" techniques have nothing to do with her family and that the author made her out to ooze such sheer awesomeness and echi that it alone accounts for her being self trained to be stronger than any other disciple in the manga) which means she too will continue to grow.
And yet Miu still doesn't grow at the same rate as Kenichi and Kenichi wasn't fighting to win. I already said she was stronger so that's not an issue. My issue is saying that she's so far above that Kenichi can't reach which is a big leap to make. Also, she has no equivalent to Ryuusui Seikuken that can be applied in actual battle. She doesn't need it because the way she fights is different, but she doesn't have an equivalent. They simply have different ways to observe. Kenichi uses Ryusui Seikuken and Miu excites her ki. Also saying that Kenichi has better special techniques has everything to do with the fact that he was taught them by Elder, while Miu could never learn them due to her nature or simply the fact that she's a different type of fighter. She did need Kenichi to finish off Pengulu because he had the strongest technique in both of their arsenals.
We also don't know if Elder still trains Miu on a consistent basis anymore so I wouldn't make that assumption. From all the evidence we have, it appears that he taught her when she was younger to train her heart but then left her to follow her own path in that regard which means for the most part she has been self trained . That's why I was happy that Miu was getting a training arc and some new skills. The possibility that she has been self training may be a contributing factor to her current level while, people like Shigure and Apachai (who don't have Miu's lineage) where teenage masters. She is responsible for a whole household though so there's certainly a reason. Like I said though, it was nice to see some focus on her training. We see that she has a high aptitude for learning and perfecting technique in a very short period of time. I can finally see why they call her a prodigy. However, that still doesn't mean that Kenichi will never catch up. Like I said give him a year (story time) and I'd think that he would have bridged the gap.
Last edited by kenichi23; February 29, 2012 at 02:21 PM.
Kenichi holding back does not make sense though. if he was at any point holding back then there is no reason for him to have been in so many situations where he only lived merely because miu used every bit of restraint she had and didn't plain murdered him. It is understandable if kenichi made the mistake once however there were 3 times where he simply could not keep up and was about to get murdered. Under the assumption that kenichi was not serious during the fight we would have to assume that not only he was not fighting to win but he also was defending in such a way that miu could kill him easily which makes no sense whatsoever. kenichi was very serious during the fight and he got his ass handed to him.
And how is the exciting her ki thing not equivalent to ryusui seikuken? Obviously the principle by which it works is innately different from ryusui seikuken, it is not an actual reading of the enemy. However, even though the method is different, it allows a similar end result. Ryusui seikuken and the exciting ones ki ultimately allow the user to follow and predict the movements of the enemy. Whether one method implies an actual reading of the enemy and the other implies feeling the enemy's movements is not quite relevant to that. Otherwise there is no reason for kenichi to have thought for even a moment that miu learned RS and miu's actual statement about using a different method to read and predict the movements of sakaki and akira is simply plain idiocy (which would be weird considering that miu is also so overwhelmingly smart that she learned a language in a week). And why can't her method be applied in battle? If anything it should be quite easier to apply than ryusui seikuken.
It is true that we have not actually seen the elder training miu (other than at the DoD tournament) however the alternative, that she is training herself, does not quite make sense at all. And shigure and apachai were not teenage masters nor self trained, we have actually seen their masters in their respectives flashbacks and as far as they showed they were not masters until they were actual adults. I don't think miu would be called a disciple by the ryozampaku guys if she was not in need of actual guidance from a master. It makes far more sense that she is actually being trained by the elder than just assuming she grows stronger and learns techniques out of sheer awesomeness.
What is shigure like 22 yrs old now? She had to been a teenage master around 18 or 19 yrs old with her level skill and talent IMO and about Apa wasn't he a teenager master when he fought the Elder back when they first met?? i mean that flashback had to take place a long time ago because miu was just a small child. Sorry for going off on a tangent but i couldn't help it