Ace vs. Magallen

[hoeru]

Even if Ace had to protect one: Ace protected Luffy and Mr.3 from the Marine's cannon fire with his Hibarshira, deflecting the power of the explosions without harming neither Luffy nor 3. Both of them took zero damage from neither the cannon fire nore Ace's flames,

[Samui]

What the hell?

Ace takes this with no difficulty. He's intangible, first of all. Secondly, Magellan's Hydra is weak against fire as we've witnessed in his fight against Luffy (then again, he CAN use fire to his advantage with Chloro Ball in order to create massive explosions, not like it matters against Ace)

[kkck]

How would intangibility help? I guess he could take advantage of it to make specific attacks not hit him or go through him however how would that work against large volumes? Logia's bodies do occupy space, non flammable poison in enough volumes would cover a large area so that it would effectively cover ace. What happens when ace is completely covered in a non flammable liquid poison? He is forced solid and he gets poisoned. More so, magellan's hydra was NEVER shown to be weak against fire. Heck, he used it right in the middle of level 4 with no trouble whatsoever and it certainly did not burst into flames.

[Samui]

How would intangibility help? I guess he could take advantage of it to make specific attacks not hit him or go through him however how would that work against large volumes? Logia's bodies do occupy space, non flammable poison in enough volumes would cover a large area so that it would effectively cover ace. What happens when ace is completely covered in a non flammable liquid poison? He is forced solid and he gets poisoned. More so, magellan's hydra was NEVER shown to be weak against fire. Heck, he used it right in the middle of level 4 with no trouble whatsoever and it certainly did not burst into flames.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2641-...apter-534.html

And the next page as well.

[kkck]

Isn't that the broiler/boiler/over or whatever is keeping level 4 itself hot? I think it is a little (by which I mean very) far fetched to say the poison is somehow vulnerable to fire because of that particular example. For that argument to even begin to make a little sense the proportion of fire to poison should be somewhat even while in that example the volume of fire is simply far greater than the volume of poison. And even that does not take into account whether the poison actually got to whatever actually keeps the fire going or whether that was pure fire straight up (we should assume there is something under there working as fuel though). Your idea is very much like the myth that luffy is somehow vulnerable to cutting weapons (he is just as vulnerable as anyone else, not more not less). Under that logic we might as well argue magellan's poison is vulnerable to rocks because it splashed when it hit walls and whatnot rather than poisoning the rock.... If ace and magellan fight there is a very realistic possibility that magellan's sheer amount of poison will be enough to put out his fire. Even then, magellan has plenty of gases and whatnot he can use to attack ace so long as they are not flammable which should be the case otherwise the gases he used in level 4 would have resulted in a fiery death for magellan too. Ace might be intangible but he still breathes. Worst case scenario magellan simply has to fart his way to victory.

[hoeru]

Isn't that the broiler/boiler/over or whatever is keeping level 4 itself hot? I think it is a little (by which I mean very) far fetched to say the poison is somehow vulnerable to fire because of that particular example.

Not to fire but to heat. Marco's flames aren't hot, Ace's are, much hotter than the pond. So the heat from Ace's flames make the liquid poison useless.

If ace and magellan fight there is a very realistic possibility that magellan's sheer amount of poison will be enough to put out his fire.

No. Ace's flames are of explosive nature. He can scatter anything Magellan throws onto him or let the smaller attacks pass through his body.

Even then, magellan has plenty of gases and whatnot he can use to attack ace so long as they are not flammable which should be the case otherwise the gases he used in level 4 would have resulted in a fiery death for magellan too. Ace might be intangible but he still breathes. Worst case scenario magellan simply has to fart his way to victory.

There's a huge difference in hot air and open flames to make a substance burn - and having enough concentration of a certain gas to extinguish flames or not. Methane for example doesn not go up in flames until there's a certain concentration in the air that comes into contact with open flames in a standard athmosphere. Magellan's poison didn't reach to the flames of the pond so we can't say whether or not his poison is flamable or not - not that it would matter anyways; Ace's explosive attacks dissipate the poison gas through the air pressure, and the liquid one is pushed away by the force of the flames themselves. If there's another manga to demonstrate take Natsu from Fairy Tail who scattered the poison acid in Galuna with one single blow. And Ace is stronger than that.

[kkck]

The head of the hydra that disappeared actually took a dip into the fire though, it was not just the heat. More so, we have no idea of how the fire between ace and the pit compare. We are talking about the pit having enough heat to make level 4 into a blazing hell and level 4 is no small place. There simply is no ground to argue whether ace or the pit is hotter. Now, taking a more scientific approach to the whole thing fire from wood or gas usually ranges between 1200 and 1500 celcius, since that is pretty much the norm for fire I really can't imagine ace being all that different from the pit.

Ace might be able to blow away a few attacks (assuming his attacks are really of explosive nature even though he is fire, not powder or shockwaves) however that does not change that if an attack reaches him it will hurt him. Still, it is ultimately a matter of volume. The scenario you describe is an ideal one where ace perfectly counters every attack however odds are things are not going to be that easy. More so, magellan has shown insane control over his poison and hydra in particular, he can actually attack from multiple angles at the same time while ace has shown nothing of the sort.

[hoeru]

The head of the hydra that disappeared actually took a dip into the fire though, it was not just the heat. More so, we have no idea of how the fire between ace and the pit compare.

How often do I have to repeat this fact? Ace takes down ships and buildings with Hiken and Hibashira without breaking a sweat. They are vaporized by the flames pressure. So the liquid attacks aren't any problem to Ace. Ace blasts them away - and Magellan with them as he was when Luffy kicked him with Gear 3 while Mr.3 held off Magellan's poison.

Magellan's poison on the other hand hasn't shown such a destructive force. It's devastating on contact. But there's not a single hint that Ace would come into contact with the poison. Not the smallest. Magellan hasn't fought against a Logia user we know of, so it's set that he loses anyway through not being able to touch them.

Ace might be able to blow away a few attacks (assuming his attacks are really of explosive nature even though he is fire, not powder or shockwaves) however that does not change that if an attack reaches him it will hurt him. Still, it is ultimately a matter of volume. The scenario you describe is an ideal one where ace perfectly counters every attack however odds are things are not going to be that easy. More so, magellan has shown insane control over his poison and hydra in particular, he can actually attack from multiple angles at the same time while ace has shown nothing of the sort.

Magellan's power has been shown to be pretty much useless once you evade it or are able to fend it off. Ace on the other hand has shown to fend off attacks from different angles. He let Van Augur's shots pass through his body, countered and then vaporized the building Burgess threw on him.

Level 4 has been shown to be large enough, so Ace doesn't have to hold back. And Ace's attacks are doubted to be of explosive nature? Really? The Hotarubi Hidaruma combo proves it. Hibashira proves it. Jujika proves it. Daientei proves it.

Ace perfected the control over his DF abilities, and was only defenseless to superior powers like Haki and both Sakazuki's and Teach's DF power. You can't prove that Magellan's poison would have any effect on Ace - while Ace so far has shown MUCH more destructive power with his signature move than Magellan with his ultimate.

edit: And while rereading the sidestory on Ace's search for Blackbeard, I'm convinced that Ace could dodge any of Magellan's attacks by simply jumping into the flames that are heating up the blood pool.

[BlackHair]

I have been absent from the forum, since atm no manga is exciting or worth discussing. But this thread is rather interesting. xD

I stand by my decision that Magellan wins. Simply because he wins by power scaling. Though all of them are plot circumstanced, so I won't bother mentioning them.

Ace being a logia and by that intangible means almost nothing. Even if Ace is a fire-man, he still needs oxygen to breath. Which air Magellan is able to turn into poison: chloro ball and poison cloud.

I srly can't see Ace winning. Especially since Magellan has Venom Demon. Which infects everything, including the land on which Ace will be standing. So how can Ace fight a guy, who can literally turn his environment to his element?

Im aware that heat can be used to kill viruses and bacteria, however I fail to see how a air "made out of poison" and "infected" soil can be counter attacked by Ace's heat. I mean the manga already confirmed that not all of Magellans poison can be killed of by heat, the chloro ball as such.

Plz remember Ace ain't no Akainu. That guy could literally form land out of heat (melted rock), Ace is just plain ass fire.

[hoeru]

Sure, Magellan wins... if you ignore that:

• Ace can fly - as shown when he tried to assassinate Whitebeard while sleeping.
• Magellan can't touch Ace unless Ace is unaware of being attacked, or wants to take the hit or comes into contact with seastone
• Magellan does by no means have any fighting skilles like Fishman Karate to control the water in Ace's real body nor Haki etc.
• Ace's destructive power is much superior to Magellan's
• Ace can hide within the flames of the blood pond, where none of Magellan's attacks can reach him be it Hydra, Poison gas or whatever

Just summing up the parts ...

[BlackHair]

Im not ignoring anything, at least nothing comes to my mind, even after reading ur post.

• Logic sense tells us that surprise attacks have to be fast. Its not like he was 2 days in mid air as he was attacking WB, couldn't have been more than couple of milliseconds, max 1 or 2 seconds. Basically Im saying it was most likely jump. Maybe he can float for some limited time due to his element, but he can't fly! Otherwise he wouldn't have needed that boot in Alabasta, would he? Technically I believe u need wings to fly, anything else I believe is counted as floating, not sure though. Peru can fly. Miss Valentine can float. But to begin with, how does this do him any good in the fight against Magellan?

• He doesn't have to touch him. My whole argument was about making the environment his own thus gaining a advantage. As Ace continues to breath poison, he will weaken himself. At some point he will be paralysed thus unable to turn his body to fire, in that moment he will be in Magellans mercy.

• I never calamined that he had any of those skills. [However I do believe he can use haki. Rly that skill is overrated. Magellan served decades for the WG and made a notorious name for himself. As such I expect him to be able to use haki. But Im not saying he can for sure, nor do I use this as an argument. After all this is just my expectation, not canon. Im being reasonable and fair here.]

• Ace having more destructive power does him no good, if he isn't immune against poison. Magellan (poison) wins over time. His fighting technique has nothing to do with destructive power.

• Ace is a fire-man, fire and human. He needs oxygen nonetheless, even if he as fire hides his ass in the pond, he needs air to breath. Heck even fire needs O2 tu burn.

Reading some of the posts supporting Ace, I understand that Magellan is looked down. I didn't wanted to power-scale, since these are plot circumstanced, but regardless.

Magellan:

• forced bigshots such as Jinbei, Crocodile, Iva and other to run for their lives like dogs
• handled BB pirates in mere seconds, like fodders

Ace

• lost to BB in a rather one sided fight
• equally clashed with AoKiji

[hoeru]

Im not ignoring anything, at least nothing comes to my mind, even after reading ur post.

Then read Samui's posts, too. He provides further proofs like Magellan's hydra being USELESS against fire.

• Logic sense tells us that surprise attacks have to be fast. Its not like he was 2 days in mid air as he was attacking WB, couldn't have been more than couple of milliseconds, max 1 or 2 seconds. Basically Im saying it was most likely jump. Maybe he can float for some limited time due to his element, but he can't fly! Otherwise he wouldn't have needed that boot in Alabasta, would he? Technically I believe u need wings to fly, anything else I believe is counted as floating, not sure though. Peru can fly. Miss Valentine can float. But to begin with, how does this do him any good in the fight against Magellan?

Wow, a phantom discussion on defining words withouth disproving the opponents point. Great!

You're point was:

I srly can't see Ace winning. Especially since Magellan has Venom Demon. Which infects everything, including the land on which Ace will be standing. So how can Ace fight a guy, who can literally turn his environment to his element?

Ace doesn't need to stand on the ground that is infected by Venom Demon's poison.

Additionally: Venom Demon can be EASILY blasted off with a hiken which is in fact as strong as Luffy's and Galdino's combo.

• He doesn't have to touch him. My whole argument was about making the environment his own thus gaining a advantage. As Ace continues to breath poison, he will weaken himself. At some point he will be paralysed thus unable to turn his body to fire, in that moment he will be in Magellans mercy.

The poison gas didn't render Luffy being unable to stretch his body nor paralyzed. Additionally, Luffy was already affected by the liquid poison, and wiped his eyes with the hand covered with the liquid poison. So even if Ace was affected by the gas, he could still fight with his DF abilities.

• I never calamined that he had any of those skills. [However I do believe he can use haki. Rly that skill is overrated. Magellan served decades for the WG and made a notorious name for himself. As such I expect him to be able to use haki. But Im not saying he can for sure, nor do I use this as an argument. After all this is just my expectation, not canon. Im being reasonable and fair here.]

Neither Zoan nor Paramecia can compete with Logia unless one of three exceptions occur. Haki, Seastone or being in elemental advantage. That's a basic rule. Magellan can't use Haki, Magellan doesn't have Seastone weapons, and as Samui shows Magellan is in elemantal disadvantage since fire kills hydra.

• Ace having more destructive power does him no good, if he isn't immune against poison. Magellan (poison) wins over time. His fighting technique has nothing to do with destructive power.

Of course it does! Magellan isn't invincible and only has paramecia abilities. Luffy showed that with his Jet Bazooka.

• Ace is a fire-man, fire and human. He needs oxygen nonetheless, even if he as fire hides his ass in the pond, he needs air to breath. Heck even fire needs O2 tu burn.

And where is it shown that the poison cloud would be in the pond's fire? Even with it around: There is NO PROOF that it is enough to extinguish fire, nor that it would knock out Ace. It didn't even knock out Luffy but weaken him. And it's only your assumption that Ace's fire would stop burning. Therefore I say: Ace would blow off anything Magellan would bring up. He has two moves for this: Hibashira and Hiken.

BTW: Jinbe and Crocodile ran from Magellan to escape from ID and they were sort of in a hurry to reach Ace in time. So it would be an extremely dumb strategy from them to go for Magellan instead of just ... dashing off!

[BlackHair]

Then read Samui's posts, too. He provides further proofs like Magellan's hydra being USELESS against fire.

Hydra had nothing to do with my argument.

Wow, a phantom discussion on defining words withouth disproving the opponents point. Great!

It seems u missed it. I did indeed disprove ur statement with simple logic. Well let me repeat:

• You stated Ace being able to fly, since he was seen midair as he was attacking WB.

• In return I said Ace was just a couple of milliseconds in mid air, maximal seconds. Which equals a jump. Basically he wasn't flying or floating.

Ace doesn't need to stand on the ground that is infected by Venom Demon's poison.

So you are saying Ace can fly? If that is the case then why wasn't he seen using it more than just once? I mean for example in the fight against BB, it might have helped him.

Additionally: Venom Demon can be EASILY blasted off with a hiken which is in fact as strong as Luffy's and Galdino's combo.

Easily.. how do u know that?

There were no hints or even the slightest indication stating that fire can neutralize Magellans venom road. It is on a different lvl than the Hydra. The hydra needs to touch his opponent to infect, while VD will get his opponents by just being there. Not to mention the poison is deadlier than anything we have seen in the fight against Luffy.

The poison gas didn't render Luffy being unable to stretch his body nor paralyzed. Additionally, Luffy was already affected by the liquid poison, and wiped his eyes with the hand covered with the liquid poison. So even if Ace was affected by the gas, he could still fight with his DF abilities.

Paralyse may have been the wrong word. Let me re-explain: My point was, the gas will make him weaker. As times passes on he won't have any strength left to fully use his powers. Hence Ace wouldn't be able to use fire at some point. Not only that but also his mobility will suffer. At some point he will be defenceless.

Neither Zoan nor Paramecia can compete with Logia unless one of three exceptions occur. Haki, Seastone or being in elemental advantage. That's a basic rule. Magellan can't use Haki, Magellan doesn't have Seastone weapons, and as Samui shows Magellan is in elemantal disadvantage since fire kills hydra.

That basic rule simply doesn't apply here. Magellan is no novice. As I stated several times already, he can turn his environment into poison, including the air which Ace has to breath in.

Hydra is ONE of his attacks. We already know that fire can't kill ALL of his poison attacks. Also fire is not Magellans natural enemy. For all we know it should be vaccine, antibiotics and hormones. However even these three might not help against VD, much less a combination of all his poisons.

Of course it does! Magellan isn't invincible and only has paramecia abilities. Luffy showed that with his Jet Bazooka.

I didn't say Magellan will win this fight easily. Obviously he will be forced all out and might even sacrifice some body parts. But he will win, after all even logia Ace has to breath. Poison wins over time.

And where is it shown that the poison cloud would be in the pond's fire? Even with it around: There is NO PROOF that it is enough to extinguish fire, nor that it would knock out Ace. It didn't even knock out Luffy but weaken him. And it's only your assumption that Ace's fire would stop burning. Therefore I say: Ace would blow off anything Magellan would bring up. He has two moves for this: Hibashira and Hiken.

U got me wrong. I didn't say the poison gas will extinguish fire. But Ace even if being fire still needs to breath. As long he has to breath he will be infected. Ace has no ways of stopping gas or the infected soil. Thus he wil be infected no matter what.


While fighting Magellan, its not like Ace will only face one kind of poison attack, but all of his in a certain order. For instance starting with chloro then fog/cloud and lastly VD. The VD can be also used to block his fire attacks. Or he could bring the hydra to block. Maybe that wouldn't be even necessary. After all VD works extremely fast. Meanwhile Ace has nothing to counter attack the air part.

[kkck]

I don't think ace's fire will outright take out magellan quickly, I don't think that would make much sense. Magellan is nothing but resilient to say the least, he does have great capacity to take a decent bit of punishment. Taking luffy's attacks is not much of a feat in itself as luffy was fodder back in the day however magellan did take out ivankov with only minor injuries and that is someone who was substantially more powerful than luffy back then and that is putting it mildly. Heck, he is strong enough to make explosions by winking... Anyways, ace's attacks won't take out magellan fast which will invariably expose ace to poison. A fight against magellan has to be won quickly and I don't think ace has shown anything to suggest he can pull of such a feat.

[hoeru]

Anyways, ace's attacks won't take out magellan fast which will invariably expose ace to poison.

How?

I did indeed disprove ur statement with simple logic.

Simple. You're logic is simply faulty.

• You stated Ace being able to fly, since he was seen midair as he was attacking WB.

Look closely to the panel. There is NOTHING indicating that he's jumping. Ace's body is almost still in the air with the lower body replaced by flames. If Ace was jumping, Oda would have shown Ace's fucking legs! Or extend the flames as to show that Ace uses the flames to boost the jump as Oda did here.

• In return I said Ace was just a couple of milliseconds in mid air, maximal seconds. Which equals a jump. Basically he wasn't flying or floating.

You can't judge this from ONE panel for how short Ace is in the air. It's common sense that Ace is floating/flying. He doesn't want to make a sound by cranking the planks!

So you are saying Ace can fly? If that is the case then why wasn't he seen using it more than just once? I mean for example in the fight against BB, it might have helped him.

Of course, it wouldn't have helped against Blackbeard's Black Hole... Simple logic. Nothing can overcome the gravity head. So why use a useless technique. Ace is at least that smart.

There were no hints or even the slightest indication stating that fire can neutralize Magellans venom road. It is on a different lvl than the Hydra.

Venom road is actually nothing but Magellan travelling through one of the hydra's throat. AND Venom demon is kicked off by Gear 3 Gigant Stamp + Special Service Candle Wall combo buying enough time to wake up Ivankov and escape from Impel Down. Hiken is as strong, which is shown when Ace killed those Baroque Works ships on Arabasta - without breaking a sweat. Hence "easily".

The hydra needs to touch his opponent to infect, while VD will get his opponents by just being there. Not to mention the poison is deadlier than anything we have seen in the fight against Luffy.

Wrong. Of course, the poisoned once still need to be in contact with the Venom Demon's poison. Which is why the Mr.3's Battle Armor held the poison off for a moment.

And there's no proof that the poison comes into contact with an intagible Logia body.

Paralyse may have been the wrong word. Let me re-explain: My point was, the gas will make him weaker. As times passes on he won't have any strength left to fully use his powers. Hence Ace wouldn't be able to use fire at some point. Not only that but also his mobility will suffer. At some point he will be defenceless.

Hirashima doesn't need movement nor mobility. It's just creating a flame tower. Ace did this in Banaro and in Marineford without ... breaking a sweat holding off a building and cannon fire.

That basic rule simply doesn't apply here. Magellan is no novice.

Being not a novice isn't a reason. Enel was no novice when Oda installed the rule of the superior element against Luffy. Crocodile was no novice when Oda installed the rule of the ultimate weakness of a DF power. Enel nor Wiper were novices when Oda showed how seastone works on Logia users. The last stand is one's haki then - if you don't know how to use it: You're fucked up.

Oda wouldn't brake these rules. We all can rely on them.

As I stated several times already, he can turn his environment into poison, including the air which Ace has to breath in.

And as I stated several times you have to PROVE that the poison, gas or liquid, standard or venom demon, would have an effect of logia users or specificly on Ace. And you can't do that.

We already know that fire can't kill ALL of his poison attacks.

Wrong. It's proven by Samui that Hydra is useless against fire. The head of it takes a dive into the flames that burn Luffy's butt.

Also fire is not Magellans natural enemy. For all we know it should be vaccine, antibiotics and hormones. However even these three might not help against VD, much less a combination of all his poisons.

C'mon, this is ridiculous alas. Prove already that the logia body of Ace would come into contact with the liquid poison.

I didn't say Magellan will win this fight easily. Obviously he will be forced all out and might even sacrifice some body parts. But he will win, after all even logia Ace has to breath. Poison wins over time.

Prove it has an effect on Ace. Prove it, pretty please with a cherry on top.

U got me wrong. I didn't say the poison gas will extinguish fire. But Ace even if being fire still needs to breath. As long he has to breath he will be infected.

Prove it. And actually you said that Ace's fire can't burn in Magellan's poison cloud. Therefore you say it has an extinguishing effect. Logic.

I'm cutting your repetition.