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Thread: Claymore 125 Discussion

  1. #466
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member SaphG1's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    @Darknight

    Release factor(quality) is a multiplication of increase. Basically as she said, the factor by which her strength increases is the highest among the claymores of her generation.

    For example every 1% of your Yoki increases a standard claymores strength by 2% then for Galatea it would be something like every 1% of Yoki released increases her strength by 3%. This means that even if she had less Yoki then other Claymores her efficiency at utilizing that Yoki is higher by standard then the normal Claymore.

    Its a nice bonus factor for her but it still means Claymores with greater Yoki can increase there abilities through release to an equal or greater level. Also in the world of Claymore Yoki release alone isn't enough to guarantee that you win a fight, natural attributes, techniques and experience all play a role in Claymore battles as well. As we've seen in the 1-5 single digits very often on attribute of one number is higher then the others but there overall combat ability isn't greater just because of it.

    Lastly to Teresa's or any other measurement all you need is something to compare it too, a base level you'd say...so lets say for example. If 10% of Teresa's power were equal to 100 times the amount of Yoki an E rank Claymore produced(just an example mind you) then they would feasibly be able to produce an estimate of her power upon the scale they designed, as long as there is a baseline. This holds true even if she never released her maximum power for measurement.

    Honestly I think reason that Yagi leaves it somewhat ambiguous I think is to stop things from turning into Dragon ball Z. He probably doesn't want his readers becoming fixated on 'scouter readings'.

  2. #467
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Night View Post
    Anyway, since we're having fun speculating, I was wondering what the Org measures when it comes to yoki. Baseline? 10%? 70%?
    This one's tricky. Given that 10% of Teresa's yoki pool is large enough to augment her statistics to levels at which she can easily defeat a possible AO-level being, I highly doubt it's 80%. Perhaps it's a baseline emission?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Night View Post
    If Galatea has the highest release factor, then is it possible her maximum (70 - 79%) might put her above a hypothetical number 2 who has a higher baseline yoki but a crappy release factor?
    Indeed. Consider Beth. Let's say that for yoki, E = 20 J, D = 40 J, C = 60 J, B = 80 J, A = 100 J, and S = 120 J. Using the values from my previous post, Galatea would have a baseline maximum attainable force of 400 N, while Beth would have 500 N (Remember that +'s don't mean higher than A in absolute terms, but higher than A during special circumstances, in her case, likely controlled awakening.). Based on her statement, consider Galatea having a strength increase factor of 1.072 times per unit of yoki released—two times for every 10% release (10 J); Alicia, 1.055 times per unit of yoki released—1.9 times for every 10% release (12 J). At 80%, that'd be 102,400 N for Galatea and 84,197.82 N for Beth. A tiny difference in the factor makes a huge difference in the end-point statistic, particularly at higher yoki releases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Night View Post
    And since yoki does impact most of the other stats when you release it, I'm left wondering why Irene didn't consider the fact that once Teresa released her yoki it would catapult her strength, agility and speed far beyond what she (Irene), Noel and Sophia could achieve in those categories.
    The only answer I see is that she actually had never seen Teresa release her yoki, otherwise she'd never have made those comments.
    That's certainly plausible.

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  4. #468
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member enmymiguel's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    like around what time of the month the chapter is out. the raw. that we could see it.
    I must create a real village, until i demonstrate what a real kage is. I cant Die!

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  6. #469
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member SaphG1's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    Quote Quote:
    Indeed. Consider Beth. Let's say that for yoki, E = 20 J, D = 40 J, C = 60 J, B = 80 J, A = 100 J, and S = 120 J. Using the values from my previous post, Galatea would have a baseline maximum attainable force of 400 N, while Beth would have 500 N (Remember that +'s don't mean higher than A in absolute terms, but higher than A during special circumstances, in her case, likely controlled awakening.). Based on her statement, consider Galatea having a strength increase factor of 1.072 times per unit of yoki released—two times for every 10% release (10 J); Alicia, 1.055 times per unit of yoki released—1.9 times for every 10% release (12 J). At 80%, that'd be 102,400 N for Galatea and 84,197.82 N for Beth. A tiny difference in the factor makes a huge difference in the end-point statistic, particularly at higher yoki releases.
    Exactly the 'scouter readings' thing I was thinking the Mangaka was trying to avoid by leaving things vague. Yagi is trying to keep the focus on the story rather then the rankings...in some cases it works and in other cases its too ambiguous but its certainly a necessary part of the writing.

    There are no real numbers for Yoki and no real parameters other then non specific grade levels which leave enough room for speculation without turning it into some exact win-lose science. Not hating on the poster or inventor of these "calculations" because coming up with fan theories is part of the fun but I've never seen use in putting complex numbers to things that don't already have them. In the end its still invalid mock science based on guesstimates. Sometimes I think even the Mangaka's don't know where they're going when they make up ratings, they tend to break there own rules frequently even when using a simple approach like letter grades.

    Quote Quote:
    And since yoki does impact most of the other stats when you release it, I'm left wondering why Irene didn't consider the fact that once Teresa released her yoki it would catapult her strength, agility and speed far beyond what she (Irene), Noel and Sophia could achieve in those categories.
    The only answer I see is that she actually had never seen Teresa release her yoki, otherwise she'd never have made those comments.
    Actually Irene's thoughts remained valid(though wrong) since she doesn't know how big a difference in Yoki she was dealing with. If they had comparable reverses to boost their attributes with, the dominate attributes of the others would still surpass Teresa's in there individual aspects. I'd be willing to say Irene based her assumptions on normal no.1's compared to herself, Noel and Sophia.

    If we look Databook Rafaela as an example of a number one's power, considering her abilities were perfectly aligned with her sister for reasons of the soul link technique, her Yoki rating is A grade. Alicia and Beth are a step beyond the old soul link duo having an A+. It at least goes to show that Irene's thinking was based on a reasonable guess, Teresa just happened to greatly surpass that guess.

  7. #470
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner fraktur's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    @enmymiguel
    if that's a question: we get spoilers (mostly fake) after the 25/26 of a month. raw or the chinese scan is out at the earliest after the 2nd of a month. but sometimes we get the raw before spoilers etc.

    edit: wtf? where enmymiguels post?
    Last edited by fraktur; April 23, 2012 at 06:04 AM.

  8. #471
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by SaphG1 View Post
    Exactly the 'scouter readings' thing I was thinking the Mangaka was trying to avoid by leaving things vague. Yagi is trying to keep the focus on the story rather then the rankings...in some cases it works and in other cases its too ambiguous but its certainly a necessary part of the writing.

    There are no real numbers for Yoki and no real parameters other then non specific grade levels which leave enough room for speculation without turning it into some exact win-lose science. Not hating on the poster or inventor of these "calculations" because coming up with fan theories is part of the fun but I've never seen use in putting complex numbers to things that don't already have them. In the end its still invalid mock science based on guesstimates. Sometimes I think even the Mangaka's don't know where they're going when they make up ratings, they tend to break there own rules frequently even when using a simple approach like letter grades..
    Complex numbers? I don't recall putting i in any of my values. As far as I know, all my values belonged to the set of real numbers.

    I kid. I kid.

    Seriously, though, I see beauty in numbers. I guess one should've guessed so considering my username. I may be a doctor, but mathematics is and will always be the field I love most. Quantitative vagueness upsets me; hence, these "useless/pointless" attempts. I know very well that Yagi probably doesn't have a series of equations somewhere in his closet, nor does he have a vast understanding of math or physics, but as you said, guessing and making up stuff is part of the fun—covering specialized areas that the author most likely has minimal knowledge in. I suppose I just didn't expect someone who apparently dislikes objective quantification to label these attempts as the epitome of what he believes the author thinks should not be done in interpreting CLAYMORE databook entries.

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  10. #472
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Dark Night's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by SaphG1 View Post
    Actually Irene's thoughts remained valid(though wrong) since she doesn't know how big a difference in Yoki she was dealing with. If they had comparable reverses to boost their attributes with, the dominate attributes of the others would still surpass Teresa's in there individual aspects. I'd be willing to say Irene based her assumptions on normal no.1's compared to herself, Noel and Sophia.

    If we look Databook Rafaela as an example of a number one's power, considering her abilities were perfectly aligned with her sister for reasons of the soul link technique, her Yoki rating is A grade. Alicia and Beth are a step beyond the old soul link duo having an A+. It at least goes to show that Irene's thinking was based on a reasonable guess, Teresa just happened to greatly surpass that guess.
    That does make sense, but you kinda have to wonder: even if the three of them were superior to Teresa in those areas, the difference couldn't have been that great.

    After all, while Teresa's yoki sensing was probably her best weapon, it couldn't have been the sole reason she was no. 1.

    Irene is portrayed as quite smart. You'd think she would realize that Teresa had greater yoki reserves to call upon, more so than the others (as is the case with most no. 1s), which could very well nullify the advantage they had on her in those areas (though I'm of the opinion that they didn't have any to begin with; Irene just didn't know as much as she thought she knew).

    This assuming of course that the more yoki you pour into a stat, the higher the latter goes.

  11. #473
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member enmymiguel's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by fraktur View Post
    @enmymiguel
    if that's a question: we get spoilers (mostly fake) after the 25/26 of a month. raw or the chinese scan is out at the earliest after the 2nd of a month. but sometimes we get the raw before spoilers etc.

    edit: wtf? where enmymiguels post?
    well here. i ask cause i always check and from the 15 till the end. cause i know stuff like naruto/onepiece i know when they out. but for claymore. i was not sure when to check it....soo around every 25 or 26 of the months i can see the raw or something...
    man i can wait for then to revive teresa or someone free clare.
    she will comeout with new power cause i think she fuse with the twins
    I must create a real village, until i demonstrate what a real kage is. I cant Die!

  12. #474
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shiek927's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    that's not really fair Gooral.....I'm reading your post, and undoubtedly so is everybody else; feels silly to think otherwise, even if people may have nothing to say.

    Numbers and math have never been my strong suit...and I, in some way, make a deliberate effort to stay away from that when it comes to Claymore because, while I love getting and being analyatical, I never personally felt that it has that much precedence when it comes to Claymore.

    It just feels like getting too complicated for the sake of it....and I especially hate "scouter readings" as was previously called and adding (god forbid) rankings to Dungeon and Dragons-style rankings to characters (like, E/D/C/B/A/S etc)...yes, I know the databooks had that, with different stats, but I just can't stand that RPG mentality....I deliberately try to stay away from that because I feel Claymore is different then that deliberately....that the story has and is always more about the characters and not about the power-levels.

    And while some may laugh that that is no longer true, especially nowadays as the story becomes more conventional (and that certainly has alot of sense to it)...I still strongly stay away from analyzing the story and the characters in that manner; it just feels distasteful to me....the same way that it feels distasteful when people make references or comparisons from Claymore to other conventional stories....because I always felt Claymore was a cut above all of them in more ways then one, including how it treats characters and power-levels, and comparing was deliberately bringing it down.

    I can certainly argue your points....but stats and deep-math...when it comes to Claymore, I honestly feel I disagree on principle -- I couldn't talk in such a manner, because I had to repeat Math 101 (I'm serious), got fired from the only bank I ever worked in, and only passed Math as a whole through lots of luck....and, in general, I just don't feel the same way about Claymore and math in general.

    So no, I'm not ignoring nor putting down Fermat's enthusiasm or anybody's post...I just have little to contribute, on the math-front; whether in ability, or interest.
    You know, there are as many ways to live as there are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look.

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  14. #475
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member SaphG1's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermat View Post
    Complex numbers? I don't recall putting i in any of my values. As far as I know, all my values belonged to the set of real numbers.

    I kid. I kid.

    Seriously, though, I see beauty in numbers. I guess one should've guessed so considering my username. I may be a doctor, but mathematics is and will always be the field I love most. Quantitative vagueness upsets me; hence, these "useless/pointless" attempts. I know very well that Yagi probably doesn't have a series of equations somewhere in his closet, nor does he have a vast understanding of math or physics, but as you said, guessing and making up stuff is part of the fun—covering specialized areas that the author most likely has minimal knowledge in. I suppose I just didn't expect someone who apparently dislikes objective quantification to label these attempts as the epitome of what he believes the author thinks should not be done in interpreting CLAYMORE databook entries.

    The Epitome, hardly so. I understand numbers are quite real but the scaling is figurative. There's no way to be sure if E -> D ->C etc is a flat rate of increase or a percentage increase, nor the actual range between any level. The gaps between them could be miniscule or exponential and we don't know how or how they play a role in the claymore world. That's why i tend to shy away from putting numbers on them.

    As i said no offense meant to those who like numbers but I certainly recall years upon year of such discussions in similar shounen where people would attempt to factor in numerical values as a way to prove that their interpretation was more correct then other peoples; numbers have a way of looking official. I'm not accusing you of doing the same mind you, I'm merely stating that from past experience when numbers become involved readers tend to fixate on them and it tends to draw away from the story. I use the term scouter readings as an example because it fits the conceptual frenzy that numbers produce in some series. People still argue to this day over Dragon ball series(all of em) power levels and the series is older then a large chunk of its fan base. It goes to show the power of numbers I suppose. ^^

    I'm not insulting you or anything like that but we both interpret things differently as I think we both have mentioned in one way or another. I really don't see anything wrong with speaking a disagreement with your method, its all opinion based after all. It's definitely nothing personal for sure.


    Quote Quote:
    Irene is portrayed as quite smart. You'd think she would realize that Teresa had greater yoki reserves to call upon, more so than the others (as is the case with most no. 1s), which could very well nullify the advantage they had on her in those areas (though I'm of the opinion that they didn't have any to begin with; Irene just didn't know as much as she thought she knew).

    This assuming of course that the more yoki you pour into a stat, the higher the latter goes.
    The curse of no.2 I tell you! It's a cursed number, you touch it and you die.

    Yes Irene is definitely quite smart but i notice its not just she that makes this mistake. Rigardo was very much the same, arguably Rosemary and Roxanne as well (both being former 2's at some point and being killed or beaten by 1's). I don't know why it is but for some reason there is this trend where a no.2 somehow cannot gauge the power of a no.1 correctly. I'd like to think it was all attitude related but it's a repeating scenario time and time again so maybe it has to do with some hidden factor that can't be identified by someone who is relatively close in power. They're standing too close to see the big picture I guess you'd say *shrug*
    Last edited by SaphG1; April 23, 2012 at 10:54 PM. Reason: Typos ^^ what else

  15. #476
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    I don't think Yagi sensai went out and made some youki calculations before he wrote the manga. Even dragonball doesn't make sense using math with the scouter readings. So any math can only be used as general guideline. Besides, all the match conjuncture are based are assumptions and not any actual data.

    @Darknight, I suspect release factors has a lot to do with a claymores ability at sensing and controlling her own youki, the better they can sense and control their own youki, the more efficient they can utilize them and thus get a higher release factor as a result. Teresa possibly have higher release factors then Galatea and definitely a larger youki pool. But her sensing ability combined with martial aptitude is what made her No.1 since she pretty much never releases and is hiding much of her true power. One can judge how strong Preemptive Youki Sensing (PYS) is by the slasher's arc. Despite a pathetically weak youki pool and poor baseline stats, Clare was able to defeat the male AB with Miria despite the AB's youki level being high enough to instill fear into Miria. That one skill alone equalized the enormous gap between Clare and that male AB's youki levels. In Teresa's hands, you can imagine how powerful such a technique would be. Not only is she far more adept at PYS, she also have far better stats as well as far more experiences in combat.

    I look at youki as a form of an energy both claymores and ABs possess. ABs have far much larger youki pool and yet we see claymores able to hunt them down in groups or solo despite having lower youki levels. Thus the skill of using one's youki or efficiency could explain why this is. Claymore techniques are a result of improved capability at using one's youki. If they cannot compete in raw power against ABs, they have to rely are better usage of smaller amounts of youki in order to stand a chance. The more skilled one get at utilizing youki, the stronger one gets - as demonstrated by Clare's growth and reaffirmed by Roxxane's rise. It would also make sense that the more skilled claymores awaken into more powerful ABs since not only they get a larger pool from awakening but also able to utilize their increase youki more efficiently. There is also the growth of youki pool as claymores improve their control of their youki, which also factor into how powerful an AB one awaken into and how high rank one can climb up to. So for claymores, youki control, sensing and techniques are more important then youki levels since the latter can only increase base stats and such increase is generally insufficient to deal with ABs, not to mention AOs. Not to say it's not a good thing to have higher youki levels. A bigger youki pool on top of better control/technique multiply one's capability.

  16. #477
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    @SaphG1: I understand, and I most certainly do not find offense in your disagreement per se, it was the way it was stated. I suppose I was merely taken aback when you used the term "exactly." It was so... absolute; as if there's no question that my quantitative play is precisely what Yagi didn't want people to do. As such, it almost felt as if, by extension, the mere act of trying such quantification is so nonsensical it borders on the idiotic, however much you stated that you certainly didn't mean to imply so. I suppose it just struck me more than it should have, and I apologize if you perceive that I overreacted a little.

    Anyway, as I've mentioned in the post, I'm pretty sure Yagi doesn't have a board of equations like Sheldon from TBBT that he gazes upon whenever he creates a databook, nor are any of the values/equations in the post certain. The point was to show that an array exists in response to Goral's previous post. Remember those times when your math professor would shout out in glee that "The limit exists!" or "The limit does not exist!" with so much gusto it seemed as if he had jizzed his pants and then doesn't even proceed to calculate what exactly the limit of the function is, satisfied just at the discernment that it exists or that it doesn't? Yeah, it's like that.
    Last edited by Fermat; April 24, 2012 at 12:15 AM.

  17. #478
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member TheRussianMeatClob's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    Well now this is about the time to start placing bets on what chapter 126 is gonna be. Will it be Raki taliking about how much he can bench? Or will we go to the yoma testing facility or Rabona and see Galatea looken pretty. Or maybe just maybe we go off on an adventure in a massive pile of shit with Priscilla and Clare.
    ".........." Killy's opinion on most things.

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  19. #479
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Dark Night's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    Probably the resolution of the conflict, and the fate of the MiB. We could (hopefully), at the end, get an image of Cassandra suddenly arriving in view of the Blob. Or Galatea sensing a huge yoki approaching their location.

    About that math thing. Authors most probably don't go about setting detailed charts of their power levels, but they have to at least make sure said power levels are internally consistent. And, inevitably, fans somewhere on the internets are going to put that to the test, dissect it, involve a lot of complicated math if they feel like it.

    There is no lost love between me and math, so I can understand people not wanting to see it involved in power levels discussions. But a character's power is tied to her/him. You can't separate them. In a world like Claymore, it's often what decides whether they live or bite it.

    I guess it's not really necessary to involve equations, but we're just having fun aren't we? I actually enjoy seeing the resident math geniuses turn yoki into something... quantifiable. Anyway, a fan [over]analyzing something shouldn't be that bad. We all do it.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Nixl's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 125 Discussion / 126 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRussianMeatClob View Post
    Well now this is about the time to start placing bets on what chapter 126 is gonna be. Will it be Raki taliking about how much he can bench? Or will we go to the yoma testing facility or Rabona and see Galatea looken pretty. Or maybe just maybe we go off on an adventure in a massive pile of shit with Priscilla and Clare.
    Raki will bench press Galatea in a Yoma testing facility.


    Knowing Yagi, Claire vs Priscilla will be implied like Luciella vs Isley and it will end with all the character silhouettes blacked out except the eyes.

    Yagi: Grimdarkshit enough Mr. Editor?
    Editor: Nah, just pour black ink shit on it.
    Yagi: Word.

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