Claymore 125 Discussion

[Dark Night]

dude re read the manga Miria most defiantly has what it takes to kill the MIB, in her eys they are no longer human, but something even worse then the monsters they create. so she should kill them but knowing how her Character has been developing as of late i could see a lame change of heart.....do you not remember any of the whole Tabitha getting cut my Miria, and Galatea telling Tabitha that Miria did it because she was going to kill humans for the first time, as killing the Organisations men is what it means to bring its destruction

I do remember all that. And I think if it came to it, Miria would have the guts to kill them. But you also need to re-read the last few chapters. Then you'll see that Claymore has lost some of its grim, gritty reality in which Miria could dispatch them without hesitation.

Don't get me wrong, those guys (except for Dae, he's awesome ) need to die. At least the head honchos. But like you said, Miria has just undergone a great ordeal, and it has most likely changed her.

Carebear. That's what Shiek likes to call her, right? Well, whether Miria likes it or not, she has become the default leader of the remaining warriors.

The Miria who cut Tabitha down and headed for the Organization would kill them. This Miria though... I fear they are not exactly the same person.

[number12michael]

I do remember all that. And I think if it came to it, Miria would have the guts to kill them. But you also need to re-read the last few chapters. Then you'll see that Claymore has lost some of its grim, gritty reality in which Miria could dispatch them without hesitation.

Don't get me wrong, those guys (except for Dae, he's awesome ) need to die. At least the head honchos. But like you said, Miria has just undergone a great ordeal, and it has most likely changed her.

Carebear. That's what Shiek likes to call her, right? Well, whether Miria likes it or not, she has become the default leader of the remaining warriors.

The Miria who cut Tabitha down and headed for the Organization would kill them. This Miria though... I fear they are not exactly the same person.

Sadly i think your right T.T just when i was starting to like Miria then she had to go all soft >.<

[Goral]

@littleangel
I didn't forget about Alicia and Beth. I'll try and respond to that later. For now let me only say that there are many ways to interpret that scene.

BTW, where's Tabitha's punch to Miria's face for wounding her and leaving her in Rabona? And everyone else's for that matter as Deneve promised? I hope Yagi will deliver it next chapter.

[FrostyMouse]

@littleangel
I didn't forget about Alicia and Beth. I'll try and respond to that later. For now let me only say that there are many ways to interpret that scene.

BTW, where's Tabitha's punch to Miria's face for wounding her and leaving her in Rabona? And everyone else's for that matter as Deneve promised? I hope Yagi will deliver it next chapter.

Yagi's forgotten about that. Seeing her "role model" made Tabitha forget about it, and only want to support Miria from the side, like always. Deneve just failed on that one, I don't know. I'm expecting some conversation about Claire, now that Raki's here, and maybe some shots of Dae and Rubel, but that's about it. I don't think we'll see Priscilla and Claire for two chapters.

[littleangel]

@littleangel
I didn't forget about Alicia and Beth. I'll try and respond to that later. For now let me only say that there are many ways to interpret that scene.

I will be waiting but to tell the truth, Yagi wont make Riful look like a liar or a fool since to me I believe she is one of his favorite characters he made in Claymore (but many says it is the opposite because of the way she died in but I believe that they are mistaken; the way she died in was full of emotions and she fought tell the last breath just like Isley but she didn't have the opportunity to show what she had because of the destroyer's attack)..

[Unholy]

About time he stopped stalling, seriously most of Mirias arc seems mostly done to get time to figure out what he plays on doing with the rest of the story.Those 3 new ABs that he pulled out of his ass were quite boring, now they are dead im guessing he prolly figured out what he gonna do with the story, i can either see the manga ending in like 5-10 chapters or turning into something like berserk sort of no end in sight for a very long time.

I think the story is gonna go 2 possible paths, either it will be restricted to the island and therefore it will end in 5-10 chapters, since there isnt much left to be done on the island.All the tough opponents are dead, Cassandra being the last AB alive but if they manage to kill Priscilla which im guessing will be the next focus of the story Cassandra would be childs play to deal with.The organization is already defeated all claymores and traines turned against them, all we would have left is facing off Priscilla and maybe an epilogue.

On the other hand if the author decides to stretch the history beyond the island it prolly would take ages for this manga to reach its end, no idea how he would do it, but involving the current claymores/island on a war that has being going on for hundreds of years on a month manga would take forever to come to a conclusion.

[Goral]

@littleangel

1. We do not know whether "I believe I would be able to deal about 50% damage to her [Riful] and then die" means she would do this as an AB or Claymore. We do not know whether she could fight in an awakened state at that time. In fact it's doubtful because:
   a) Beth wasn't present here so it's implied she would be fighting Riful in her human form.
   b) MiB said later something like "Thank God we've completed Alicia in time".
   This order is not random. If #1 is true than #2 means that only just before 11 ABs attacked Alicia could fight as an Awakened Being and all the training before was to get access to 100% of her power. Unless you have a better interpretation.
   
2. We do not know what does "we will be raising your power and speed step by step from now on" mean. For some reason MiB didn't say "you will awaken and de-awaken a couple of times" or anything like that. It might be for example that she was gradually learning how to fight in a youki released state, closer and closer to the awakening. Or maybe MiB were awakening her step by step (firstly only one finger, one hand, all limbs, etc.) so she could steadily control more of her awakened body. Someone might say then: "but they didn't know about partial awakening". We don't know that, we don't know which parts of Rubel's information were true, maybe organization knows about it. Or maybe they wouldn't think that what Alicia managed to do with Beth's help Claymores could do by themselves. Also it might have sth to do with soul link, maybe better compatibility (soul resonance) => increased strain on the body + increased power. Not to mention that if Alicia was increasing her speed and strength as a Claymore MiB could suspect it was possible for normal Claymores too.
   
3. "Raising power and speed by 30% step by step" could mean that "we will increase speed first, then strength". Also, legs are built from many muscles, tendons, etc. so first they would increase this and later that. Besides, awakening legs adds to speed AND overall power. We don't know if they were referring to awakened Alicia or not, if they were referring to Alicia in her Claymore form... Step by step could mean they would gradually let her use more and more of her awakened powers (either by partially awakening or some other way). And soul-link could have sth to do with it. Clare was exhausted after awakening only her left arm, not only mentally but also physically. Going by that line of thought the strain on Alicia's body if she used more of her youma powers would be far greater than that as long as she would not be completely awakened. How come full awakening could become more stressful on her body? She would have the same form and the same abilities, there would be no bulging of veins, no sudden growth of fangs and drooling as it is during the process of going over the limit.
   
4. Another problem arises if what you're saying would turn out to be true. It would mean that Alicia suddenly became strong enough to defeat Riful even though a while earlier she could do to her 50% of damage at best. It would mean that she was relatively weak at the start, not even Rafaela's level and after the training she would surpass underestimated, MiB version of Teresa which IMO is doubtful. Alicia was the strongest warrior in the annals according to MiB. It wouldn't make sense for them to say that her awakened form was the strongest since Riful, Isley and Luciella would be of about her strength. And it would be obvious that comparing AB to a Claymore would be pointless. So it means that even at the time Alicia compared her power to Riful's Alicia had the best stats any warrior ever had (that they knew of). And how do I know that Alicia must have been of at least Rafaela's level? It was stated by Rubel 2 times that Rafaela was equally strong to Claymore Luciella and Rafaela didn't deny it (it's also consistent with Alicia and Beth). We also know she was all A warrior (thanks to databooks). And Luciella was about as strong as Isley. So to be of Abyssals level Alicia would have at least as good stats as Rafaela, otherwise she would surely lose to someone even slightly stronger, just like Luciella lost to Isley. All abyssals were of comparable strength, it was a deadlock. And since Luciella was of about the same strength as Riful than as Claymores they must have had comparable stats.
   
5. If Alicia could improve her speed and power by 30% then it's obvious there would be some that could improve even more. So where would be the limit here? That creates a chance for Yuma to become an abyssal since there's no clear maximum. That's one of the reasons I prefer the "it doesn't matter when you awaken" theory.
   
6. She was COMPLETE when she faced these 11 ABs. Galatea said it explicitly - not only Alicia but also Beth had youma energy that rivaled AOs (it was stated at the end of volume 11 - page 184, the end of chapter 63). As for next 7 years, we don't know that she improved over that time. Definitely not in youki department since Galatea sensed them and didn't say anything like that (she also knew how strong Riful was) and when Riful sensed them she knew she had comparable youki to Alicia and was rather confident. They were waiting for a chance to strike and they needed to kill Isley first. It took the 7 years to develop AFs and kill him and only then, when there would be no danger from Isley could they go after Riful. If there would be significant improvement they wouldn't need to wait whole 7 years since Alicia and Beth were as strong as Abyssals even 7 years ago as Galatea stated.
   
7. Riful has met half-awakened Claymores for the first time so she couldn't have known they would become stronger ABs. She's not a reliable observer unless Yagi made a real blunder and gave her knowledge she couldn't have. In order to make a statement like that Riful would have to awaken someone, measure it's power, de-awaken it, train it and then measure it's powers again and compare the two which we know she didn't do. There still is no proof that it matters when you awaken and that you can become a stronger awakened, the only information we have is that you can become a stronger Claymore but that's precisely because of having more access to youma powers, not that it suddenly multiplies or increases in other way. But I wouldn't call Riful a liar or a fool just because she jumped to a conclusion like that. There might have been signs that suggested her that but there are also signs suggesting something different. That's why a debate like this might continue .

七年ぶりの妖力解放は
My first youriki release in seven years
(Having released my youriki for the first time in seven years)

平常時でも常に限界付近まで妖気を高めているかのようでな
seems to be constantly increasing my youki almost to the limit even during normal times</div>

Gernot's translation makes it explicit that what Deneve meant was that she has more access to her power (as if she was near the limit). What makes it definite is that Deneve uses "even during normal times" which implies that once she stopped releasing youki and regenerate she felt the same thing as during the release, but she wasn't suddenly super strong during the release. She would have to be if her youki would increase and during normal times she would be as strong as 7 years ago during over the limit release. Both Helen and Deneve would certainly notice it but they didn't. She only commented she is almost as strong as if she were releasing her youki to the limit. Deneve went over the limit a while earlier and they both fought with their youki released so H&D would easily notice if the youki was stronger than before. But it wasn't.
There are no leaps of youki that we know of. We know that thanks to HA (half-awakening) they have more access to their powers only. There was no detectable change in their youki signatures (at least not by conventional ways) and if anything changed was their youki quality, i.e. how well they can use it. And Deneve can use it perfectly now, so well in fact she doesn't need to go over the limit any more. But her youki did not increase.

And we have proof in the manga that HA doesn't increase youki.

• After Clare's first HA male AB could easily tell she has very low youki, as well as Galatea from a long distance.Later, when she meets Ophelia for the first time she's also called a weakling.
• Then Clare awakens again and Ophelia (who has very good sensing skills) doesn't see any changes.
• Later awakened Ophelia comments that she got stronger because of Irene's arm.
• Later Riful has recognized Clare as someone with really weak youma energy (and thought she was a low number not even worth awakening) and that was after Clare got a power boost thanks to Irene's arm (so her youki signature must have been stronger than before but it was still weak). She changed her opinion a bit after noticing that Clare has released all of her youma power into her arm and not awakened but it had nothing to do with youki getting stronger but with using ALL youki.
• But the best judge (or the second best except Clare) of no youki increase is Galatea. She has sensed Clare's youki in Slasher's arc and she has sensed it after 2 HAs and saw no change in youki increase (she said: "low rankers like you", i.e. weak warriors such as yourself).
• In Pieta the only change Miria has noticed in her was the arm.
• And turtle AB commented that only her arm is on a different level.
• A while later turtle AB made them go over the limit again and he noticed no change whatsoever even though he was maybe even a better sensor than Galatea (also none of the other members of the team noticed any change).
• After this fight, when Flora was judging her power both Clare and Flora commented how weak she was if she didn't use her QS. "What you showed me in the battle against the awakened beings wasn't something petty like this." And Clare responded "Sorry I have to disappoint you but this is my real power. (...) The power I used in the battle against the AB was merely borrowed".Clare herself who has exceptionally well developed sensing skills hasn't commented her youki has increased and knew she was weak.
• Rigulad did the same and called Clare a weakling.

In fact every person that met Clare commented how weak she was, even though she has Teresa inside. Which only tells us that there was no change in youki emission but the changes were internal and she had more and more access to Teresa's power with each HA and with training. The same thing goes to Deneve, Miria and Helen although in their cases we didn't have so many chances to see it. But none of them has commented their youki increased and the only thing we have are Deneve's words which mean she has more access to her youma powers.
As for Rafaela, we don't know whether she got stronger or not. She might have gotten stronger but she certainly didn't have such power boost as Miria whose power increase (but only as a Claymore) can be explained by HA and having more access to her hidden powers. That's it.

As for Miria, she could do her mirage without (visibly) releasing more than 10% of her youki earlier[/Url] but only after the time-skip she learned to do it by not releasing it at all (releasing not using). But it was possible thanks to getting more access to her powers and being more compatible with youma material plus some basic strength increase not because her youki has increased. At least we can't tell it yet. This also explains why Claymores can lift a claymore as easily as earlier in a cloaked mode. They are using youki but internally and that's a huge difference. Training and HAs help Claymores to have access to it and use it internally and the master of it is Clare. She must have humongous youki inside her but she needs even more time than others to access it because of being 1/4th youma.
As for WC, Clare was using Irene's arm for that plus she's special (she HA the most times and is a prodigy as a successor of Teresa's power) so there is no problem here.

[littleangel]

Goral I have read it and it has lots of logic but lots of holes as well but it will take a very long time to replay and because I have lab finals so I will respond soon as I find time..
And Nixl I keep getting error 3005 I wanna play D3 .. Demon Hunter I wanna fight using you ..

[Goral]

I know littleangel. But that's precisely my point. Both theories have holes and there are contradicting infos in the manga. As for the reply, you don't need to hurry. Probably we'll be the only ones who will be reading it anyway ;P. So you can respond even 1 month from now and it won't make much of a difference. I'll be sure to read it anyway .

[Fermat]

I'm also a firm believer in the theory that half-awakening does not increase yoki size per se, but merely allows access to those beyond-limit stores without actually awakening—something non-HA warriors are incapable of doing, and because they are able to access those "forbidden" yoki stores, they are able to augment their other statistics, say, agility or strength, to a greater degree than non-HA warriors. So in the end, it just seems like they have more yoki, but they don't. Actually, I'd go so far as to say that I believe that yoki size is fixed upon a claymore's creation and no amount of training, meditation or see-saw awakening can increase it further.

Would this make Riful's statement false, then? Not really. I believe that Riful was hoping that Clare, Galatea and Jean would increase their other statistics, for I believe that the end-point augmentation received from awakening depends on the baseline statistic at the time of awakening. While I hold no proof of this, it certainly is a logical thing to believe, would you not agree?

[Goral]

@Fermat
I agree for the most part. I've mentioned about increase of baseline statistics in the last part of my post (last 'spoiler') by writing "it was possible thanks to getting more access to her powers and being more compatible with youma material plus some basic strength increase not because her youki has increased." But IMO power-up of baseline statistics is still relatively insignificant when compared to awakening. After all every stat depends on youki (hence Teresa was faster and stronger than anyone) and even after intense training Miria wasn't even close to Hysteria's speed unless she cheated. So the power up of basic strength should be minor when compared to the power of an awakened. Maybe this power-up would be significantly bigger than what humans could do (like going from lifting 50 kg to 150 in a matter of 10 years for example) since they aren't exactly humans any more but still it should be insignificant (if we assume that amount of youki is fixed).

After all claymore's powers don't come from the strength of their muscles but from demon energy (Riful and especially Priscilla are the best examples of that, they were fragile but became the most powerful women on the island and maybe the whole world). That Clare could lift a claymore didn't come out of her being wiry or being athletic but because of youriki. The fact that Teresa could lift 40 kg when she was human and Priscilla 30 kg means nothing because after hybrydization they could lift hundreds times that. If it was true that someone with better physical body would have better chances of becoming stronger, claymore men would have an advantage from the start and we haven't seen that.

BTW, we don't know whether Miria's old phantom has become faster than 7 years ago, no one commented on it AFAIR and there were ghosts there later (plus I think Miria herself would notice the difference but she didn't say anything). Not sure if you'll agree with me but the way I see it Miria was making her cloaked version of phantom faster (by better using youki internally) while the old phantom's speed wasn't significantly increased until she went to the limit of awakening (or beyond that even).

I also think that there is a possibility HAs could become stronger ABs thanks to experience they would have. What I mean by that isn't stronger power-wise but technique-wise. If Helen was using her limb stretching for years she would fit into it as an AB perfectly and possibly could find more advantages of her AB body faster than your average fresh AB.

[Nixl]

I thought in the duel between Claire and Miria in the 60s chapters that either Deneve or Helen commented that Miria lost some speed to her phantom, but in turn became more efficient in terms of how many she could perform.

I'll have to reread once I get the chance.


Diablo 3 beta has me sold. It is funny considering I was going to ignore it completely till a few hours ago.

[su5so]

The only problem I see in the goral opinion is as follows:
If the yoki not increase, ¿are you saying that Yuma has the same yoki that in Pieta "7 years before"? This would indicate that now, she has the one-digit level but her yoki is weak. (your yoki was weak, remember that not even mentioned by Rigardo) And whenever we have seen a digit claymore, always was a strong yoki.

Anyway, the rest of your argument is quite logical.

[Fermat]

@Goral: Indeed, yoki augmentation of a statistic has far greater impact than, say, increasing the statistic up a notch, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's insignificant.

Consider the following scenario: Let's say that strength is measured by maximum attainable force, say, E = 100 N, D = 200 N, C = 300 N, B = 400 N, A = 500 N, and S = 600 N. Consider Warrior X has a strength increase factor of 1.2 times for every 10% yoki release up to 80% and follows the equation y = ab^x where y is the endpoint strength, a is the baseline strength, b is the factor by which strength increases with yoki release and x is the yoki release itself. If Warrior X had a baseline statistic of C and she had to increase her force to, say, 1,200 N in order to cut through an AB's armor, she would have to release 76.04% of her yoki—a near-limit-crossing release. However, if she had a baseline statistic of B, she would only need to augment her strength with a 60.26% release; at A, 48.02%; and at S, 38.02%. Also, consider a 70% release from Warrior X, who has a baseline strength of C, to Warrior Y, who has a baseline strength of B but with the same strength increase factor. Warrior X would be able to produce 1,074.95 N of force, whereas Warrior Y would be able to produce 1,433.27 N. That's a difference of 358.32 N which isn't too small a value.

Of course, this is merely a hypothetical array. For all we know, the equation may not be exponential but a higher polynomial function. Perhaps the augmentation factor relies on the actual raw units of yoki energy released and not the percentage of release (though it would just mean a different "statistic increase factor"). In any case, you could plug in values that would make Goral's assumption true, i.e. that baseline statistics are insignificant. However, the point of the post was to illustrate that there exists a hypothetical statistic-yoki formula in which they are significant enough.

@su5so: I do believe so. Remember, though yoki plays a big role in ranking, other statistics are relevant as well. It's quite possible that Yuma has, say, a C or a D for yoki, but quite a bit of B's and C's in other areas.

P.S. I'm sure I'm gonna receive some hate mail for the math.

[Dark Night]

*Takes a look at Fermat's post*

what language he's speaking but it's on the internets so it must be true.


Anyway, since we're having fun speculating, I was wondering what the Org measures when it comes to yoki. Baseline? 10%? 70%?

If Galatea has the highest release factor, then is it possible her maximum (70 - 79%) might put her above a hypothetical number 2 who has a higher baseline yoki but a crappy release factor?

If the Org could measure (Claymore) Priscilla's yoki when she hits 70% +, then I doubt they would give her just an A+ there.

And since yoki does impact most of the other stats when you release it, I'm left wondering why Irene didn't consider the fact that once Teresa released her yoki it would catapult her strength, agility and speed far beyond what she (Irene), Noel and Sophia could achieve in those categories.
The only answer I see is that she actually had never seen Teresa release her yoki, otherwise she'd never have made those comments.

Which leads me to wonder how the Org could assign Teresa an S in yoki when the one person who seemed to know her well [relative] didn't actually know her that much.

I wish Yagi could come out and explain some of those stuff, though then the speculating would sadly cease.