Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

[xXan]

Wrong. Naruto and Sasuke have demonstrated Kage Level abilities. Sound Four haven't demonstrated anything above their rank neither has Genma or Raido for that matter.

This does not work as you used Tsunade's Kage level to back up your argument as to why she is superior to those 2 Jounins that got there buts kicked. You said that the sound 4 needed CS lvl 2 to figh those 2 that are jounins and Tsunade is Hokage and so above them.

So your logic is not valid including what you said now as you discarded what you stated before and you whent with feats and that works yes BUT you ignored that in that other post you used Kage status and NOT feats to back up your point.

Now why do you belive Tsunade is above those 2? We know NOTHING above them? What if those 2 where Kakashi and Gai? Do you actualy belive she has ANY chanse in hell of winning vs Kakashi and Gai going 7 gates? Yes i know that based on feats she is oviously above them as we know nothing about them BUT how can you use that unknown to back up your argument when 2 Jounins from Konoha that we have details about would completly anihilate her?

To make it short provide evidence that she can thake those 2 with evidence. Of course you have NONE as we know nothing about them....

[Uchiha_Blood]

We saw the resulting wounds when she reappeared. And the wounds Orochimaru did weren't that deep considering she could still stand. The only one that was major was the complete stab through and even that can't be compared to having her entire chest torn through or blasted back with internal damage. Neither of those two times appear at all to compare to the damage done by these two techniques. If she's hit by the Chidori or Rasengan, she's not gonna be standing afterward. It may not kill her, but it sure as heck isn't gonna let her just tank the blow.

And yet Mabui was worried that the jutsu would kill Tsunade, and we didn't saw any wounds covered by her clothes. She was pretty cut up and bloody.
And what, Oro didn't do great damage to Tsunade? He pierced her, same damage that the Chidori do except the Chidori is larger, and after that he slashed her. Mortal wounds. Ok this is a manga, but thankfully this isn't Bleach, if you got this kind of damage you are almost dead.
And you are so confident that she will be hit, Naruto, choked, beaten and all, managed to deflect a Chidori directed to the heart at point blank range, and after having his chest pierced, he could still move.
Tsunade has to do the same thing, one of them hit her, she hit them, KO'ing them, she regenerates the wound, and murder the remaining one

---------- Post added at 07:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 AM ----------

This does not work as you used Tsunade's Kage level to back up your argument as to why she is superior to those 2 Jounins that got there buts kicked. You said that the sound 4 needed CS lvl 2 to figh those 2 that are jounins and Tsunade is Hokage and so above them.

So your logic is not valid including what you said now as you discarded what you stated before and you whent with feats and that works yes BUT you ignored that in that other post you used Kage status and NOT feats to back up your point.

Now why do you belive Tsunade is above those 2? We know NOTHING above them? What if those 2 where Kakashi and Gai? Do you actualy belive she has ANY chanse in hell of winning vs Kakashi and Gai going 7 gates? Yes i know that based on feats she is oviously above them as we know nothing about them BUT how can you use that unknown to back up your argument when 2 Jounins from Konoha that we have details about would completly anihilate her?

To make it short provide evidence that she can thake those 2 with evidence. Of course you have NONE as we know nothing about them....

What kind of logic is that?
We didn't see them in action, so they can be likely stronger than a Kage? Good lord, do you know that the Kage is, tecnically, the stronger ninja in the village? Ok Jiraiya was stronger, but Jiraiya refused. Did they even think of Kakashi as a Kage? Yes, when Tsunade, the weakling, was in a coma.
Kakashi is smart, is famous, and has a huge reputation, like his father, who was hailed as an equal to the Sannin, so why didn't they even considered him as a Kage?

Together of course that Gai and Kakashi would murder Tsunade, but one-on-one? Without Kamui, I don't think so

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood

What are you talking about? The very fact that we have no idea what they can do means they could very well be stronger then RK himself. The fact that she has the tile of Kage IS irrelevant with clear FACTS. We have people that are GENIN that are WAY out of her league.

Kakashi would 1 shoot Tsunade with Kamui if he feels like... The blasted Kage title means NOTHING. Bee is STRONGER then Raikage but Raikage is well Raikage. You belive Tsunade is stronger then those 2 jounins? WHY? What evidence do you got to back this up aside from some title? Curently Naruto is the strongest in the village and the hero of Konoha and saved them ALL but nobody stated that he should be Hokage when Tsunade was out.

Hell 8 gates Gai is stated to be on Kage + level so why not? Also 7 gates looked impresive enough to dodge Tsunade around and push her to her limits. Tsunade's h2h skills are bad... Yes she has insane stg but she can't apply it. Kabuto made her look really bad and that dude was below Kakashi for sure.

So Kakashi with no Kamui can AT LEAST have a close fight with her as Kabuto demonstrated when he was holding back because he needed her alive.

Bla bla bla Kage is all i hear. I remember people stating Minato knows 1000 jutsus and he can counter any genjutsu (including Itachi's) because he is hokage...

You think my logic is bad when you base you entire premise on a unkown (the 2 jounins ability)? Yes that is briliant.

[Uchiha_Blood]

@Uchiha_Blood

What are you talking about? The very fact that we have no idea what they can do means they could very well be stronger then RK himself. The fact that she has the tile of Kage IS irrelevant with clear FACTS. We have people that are GENIN that are WAY out of her league.

Kakashi would 1 shoot Tsunade with Kamui if he feels like... The blasted Kage title means NOTHING. Bee is STRONGER then Raikage but Raikage is well Raikage. You belive Tsunade is stronger then those 2 jounins? WHY? What evidence do you got to back this up aside from some title? Curently Naruto is the strongest in the village and the hero of Konoha and saved them ALL but nobody stated that he should be Hokage when Tsunade was out.

Hell 8 gates Gai is stated to be on Kage + level so why not? Also 7 gates looked impresive enough to dodge Tsunade around and push her to her limits. Tsunade's h2h skills are bad... Yes she has insane stg but she can't apply it. Kabuto made her look really bad and that dude was below Kakashi for sure.

So Kakashi with no Kamui can AT LEAST have a close fight with her as Kabuto demonstrated when he was holding back because he needed her alive.

Bla bla bla Kage is all i hear. I remember people stating Minato knows 1000 jutsus and he can counter any genjutsu (including Itachi's) because he is hokage...

You think my logic is bad when you base you entire premise on a unkown (the 2 jounins ability)? Yes that is briliant.

You're basically saying that, since we didn't saw what they can do, that then they can be, like, the stronger ninja alive.
This is flawed logic, no offence.
The ninja village are hierarchical, the strongest ninjas are Jounins ( the elitè ), while the average ones are Chunins. Above all those ninjas there is a Kage, which is the strongest ninja of the village. Why is that? Because a Kage is expected to protect the village if something happen, so one needs skills to be Kage.
Tsunade has those skills, she not only is the ultimate medic, but also has an offensive that is stronger than the Fourth Raikage's own.
Weaklings do not become Jounins or Kages, rest assured.

Bee and Naruto are special cases, and as I said a Kage is generally the strongest, there are exceptions, a Jinchuuriki, which have an enourmous beast made of chakra sealed in their gut is a case, someone who has refused the title like Jiraiya is another, same for missing nins.
And I don't know where you got the idea that Kabuto was a wealking, but Orochimaru, you know, the one who had eye for talent and all, stated pretty clearly that Kabuto was on the same level of Kakashi.
Kabuto won their "struggle" because he got a convenient soldier pill that restored his chakra and a jutsu that was ideal to counter Tsunade, a jutsu that cut the origin of her super-strenght.
And don't forget, Tsunade was retired from active duty, and so out of shape, and despise that she was on the same level of the like of Kabuto and Kakashi.

Gai's 8th gate would kill him, Gai's 7th gates attack, while overly impressive, did less damage to Kisame than Tsunade's empowered punch.

For the bolded part, yes, Naruto did a splendid job against a drunk, one-fingered Tsunade.
And that Naruto was equal to an empowered Sasuke. Or what, did Tsunade had the Drunken Fist like Lee did?
Keep in mind that Sasuke and Naruto's only chance, CS and Kyuubi cloak, damages their body, so they can't be kept indefinitely. And its not like Tsunade never evaded a jutsu like a Rasengan or a Chidori. Even if it wasn't at full power, the fact remains that she wouldn't be hit by that.

P.S And yes, we know somewhat what kind of skills Genma and Raido have, they were defeated by the Sound Four, with CS2, even if they were short of chakra.
Hardly an overly impressive feat, even though it shows that even Tokubetsu Jounin, which are a step behind normal Jounins, are somewhat strong

[Rikudou King]

And yet Mabui was worried that the jutsu would kill Tsunade, and we didn't saw any wounds covered by her clothes. She was pretty cut up and bloody.
And what, Oro didn't do great damage to Tsunade? He pierced her, same damage that the Chidori do except the Chidori is larger, and after that he slashed her. Mortal wounds. Ok this is a manga, but thankfully this isn't Bleach, if you got this kind of damage you are almost dead.
And you are so confident that she will be hit, Naruto, choked, beaten and all, managed to deflect a Chidori directed to the heart at point blank range, and after having his chest pierced, he could still move.
Tsunade has to do the same thing, one of them hit her, she hit them, KO'ing them, she regenerates the wound, and murder the remaining one

Mabui was also worried about Ee, and he seemingly had no trouble being teleported. Either she overestimated the lethal nature of it or underestimated them. While it's true we didn't see her entire body, the wounds we did see were relatively minor.

No, Orochimaru didn't do great damage to her. As I showed, the sword stab was a pretty thin hole and the slashes weren't deep. The Chidori wouldn't simply make a larger hole, it would make a much larger and bloodier hole about twice the size of a fist, ripping apart her insides. Heck, we've seen the sort of damage it's capable of when Sasuke is really determined. It was capable of ripping a gash on a wall nearly half Sasuke's size and blowing through several walls when Itachi deflected it. Tsunade get's hit by that, and there won't be much left to heal. In addition, it would paralyze her as it went though. There's a difference between launching a hit from a stationary position and one from a charging position. I showed several examples of Sasuke being able to surprise and land regular punches on skilled ninjas before he even gained his boosted speed and third tomoe. Meanwhile, Tsunade couldn't even react to Kabuto in time to avoid being hit. Naruto had the benefit of Sasuke being stationary and the Kyuubi's chakra to empower him. Tsunade wouldn't have those benefits, since here Sasuke could rush in from any angle to land his blow. She won't be able to deflect a blow from behind or the sides, even a frontal blow would be questionable given the Sharingan's prediction showing him what's she'll do before he even gets to her and autocorrect. Even arguing she would somehow be capable of moving after being hit, the only chance she would have to counter attack them is if Sasuke landed the blow directly in front of her. A blow from any other angle would allow Sasuke to move before she could touch him and a blow from the Rasengan would literally blow her back, meaning she would be no position to grab Naruto. And since she needs to preform handseals to heal herself, preventing her from doing that would prevent her from healing. She loses an arm and she's done for.

[Lemonadez]

@Rikodou King,

I dont know why you like to make up so much stuff.

Hitting Tsunade with Chidori wont paralyze her.

1.) Only Yamato who was hit by Chidori Current was paralyzed. Chidori and Chidori Current have different effects. Chidori only focus for straight stab as it was stated there by Gai., It does not send entire electricity to the body like Chidori Current. I can even provide you a proof that even Naruto was hit by Chidori yet he wasn't paralyze, Even Kakuzu got hit by Raikiri still not paralyze. Even Gaara got hit Chidori twice, yet still not paralyze. So I dont know where you getting this Idea from.

Wow u post chidori picture destroying a wall. The fact that wall has no Feat when it come to Tsunade finger.

2.) You come up with this sharingan prediction what so ever, the fact Tsunade 1 finger Genin Naruto. Naruto that time was fast enough to react against Gaara speed. So dont come up with this SPEED SUPER SHARINGAN SPEED what so ever. The fact that even Sasuke couldn't react to Gaara Speed even with his sharingan on.

3.) Tsunade have Katsuyu who spit acid. I don't see Genin Naruto with Bunta have a way to counter that.. Those acid are way bigger than Sasuke footstep. He wont be able to evade them.


So far Tsunade win, because Katsuyu can split multiple times and also have ability to heal w/Tsunade..

Pretty much Tsunade take this.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Mabui was also worried about Ee, and he seemingly had no trouble being teleported. Either she overestimated the lethal nature of it or underestimated them. While it's true we didn't see her entire body, the wounds we did see were relatively minor.

No, Orochimaru didn't do great damage to her. As I showed, the sword stab was a pretty thin hole and the slashes weren't deep. The Chidori wouldn't simply make a larger hole, it would make a much larger and bloodier hole about twice the size of a fist, ripping apart her insides. Heck, we've seen the sort of damage it's capable of when Sasuke is really determined. It was capable of ripping a gash on a wall nearly half Sasuke's size and blowing through several walls when Itachi deflected it. Tsunade get's hit by that, and there won't be much left to heal. In addition, it would paralyze her as it went though. There's a difference between launching a hit from a stationary position and one from a charging position. I showed several examples of Sasuke being able to surprise and land regular punches on skilled ninjas before he even gained his boosted speed and third tomoe. Meanwhile, Tsunade couldn't even react to Kabuto in time to avoid being hit. Naruto had the benefit of Sasuke being stationary and the Kyuubi's chakra to empower him. Tsunade wouldn't have those benefits, since here Sasuke could rush in from any angle to land his blow. She won't be able to deflect a blow from behind or the sides, even a frontal blow would be questionable given the Sharingan's prediction showing him what's she'll do before he even gets to her and autocorrect. Even arguing she would somehow be capable of moving after being hit, the only chance she would have to counter attack them is if Sasuke landed the blow directly in front of her. A blow from any other angle would allow Sasuke to move before she could touch him and a blow from the Rasengan would literally blow her back, meaning she would be no position to grab Naruto. And since she needs to preform handseals to heal herself, preventing her from doing that would prevent her from healing. She loses an arm and she's done for.

Here we see the size of a Raikiri piercing someone's chest, and since Chidori is weaker, I can't see it doing even more damage. See here?
And on the last link, a Sharingan-equipped Sasuke couldn't do nothing about Naruto redirecting the strike, so I don't doubt that not only Tsunade will be able to do the same feat, but she would do even better, as in grabbing Sasuke before he deliver it.
And she does need handseals to heal, except when she releases her seal on the forehead, and it is already proved that she can turn off that seal.

And if you think that Tsunade can't heal a pierced chest or a blown-out stomach/insided, please bear in mind that she single-handedly cured all the Village of Konoha during the Pein invasion. Alone, she supported an entire village.
I doubt even 100 ppl's wounds are comparable to one pierced chest or blown-out stomach, and the village had way more than 100 residents. Saying that she will not deflect a surprise blow from Sasuke is quite questionable, since Chidori can't be used for sneak attacks, you do remember it makes a lot of noise, right? The very moment Sasuke activates the jutsu, Tsunade will know and counter.
See here? Sneak attack with the same properties of Chidori, minus the chirping sound, and Tsunade was still able to dodge it pretty easily.

Add the fact that dodging a Chidori/Rasengan isn't a matter of speed, but of reflexes, like Itachi effortlessy blocked Sasuke's Chidori by taking his wrist. And that is not adding to the fact that she can disrupt where Sasuke/Naruto are running, thus ending the jutsu like Naruto did when she separated the road with her finger.
This is the difference between Naruto/Sasuke and Tsunade, back in the days

[Rikudou King]

@Rikodou King,

I dont know why you like to make up so much stuff.

Hitting Tsunade with Chidori wont paralyze her.

1.) Only Yamato who was hit by Chidori Current was paralyzed. Chidori and Chidori Current have different effects. Chidori only focus for straight stab as it was stated there by Gai., It does not send entire electricity to the body like Chidori Current. I can even provide you a proof that even Naruto was hit by Chidori yet he wasn't paralyze, Even Kakuzu got hit by Raikiri still not paralyze. Even Gaara got hit Chidori twice, yet still not paralyze. So I dont know where you getting this Idea from.

Wow u post chidori picture destroying a wall. The fact that wall has no Feat when it come to Tsunade finger.

2.) You come up with this sharingan prediction what so ever, the fact Tsunade 1 finger Genin Naruto. Naruto that time was fast enough to react against Gaara speed. So dont come up with this SPEED SUPER SHARINGAN SPEED what so ever. The fact that even Sasuke couldn't react to Gaara Speed even with his sharingan on.

3.) Tsunade have Katsuyu who spit acid. I don't see Genin Naruto with Bunta have a way to counter that.. Those acid are way bigger than Sasuke footstep. He wont be able to evade them.


So far Tsunade win, because Katsuyu can split multiple times and also have ability to heal w/Tsunade..

Pretty much Tsunade take this.

1. The Chidori does paralyze. The third databook states that the variations all have the same properties as Chidori.

2. Um, what? Sasuke had no trouble reacting to Gaara's speed and that was before he even gained the boost from his third tomoe.

3. Gamabunta himself would be the counter. And as long as they were by Tsunade, Katsuya couldn't spit any acid.

Here we see the size of a Raikiri piercing someone's chest, and since Chidori is weaker, I can't see it doing even more damage. See here?
And on the last link, a Sharingan-equipped Sasuke couldn't do nothing about Naruto redirecting the strike, so I don't doubt that not only Tsunade will be able to do the same feat, but she would do even better, as in grabbing Sasuke before he deliver it.
And she does need handseals to heal, except when she releases her seal on the forehead, and it is already proved that she can turn off that seal.

Like I said, if Sasuke is determined, his Chidori will do more damage. Note the difference in size between the one he used on Naruto and the one he used against Itachi. Naruto was empowered by the Kyuubi's chakra, which we know grants him a boost and Sasuke didn't need to worry because he was still gonna land his blow. Tsunade has nothing to grant her such a boost. Tsunade couldn't even react to Kabuto getting behind her and landing a blow, while Sasuke could surprise both Kakashi and Haku, who was said to be stronger then Zabuza. Both of them are faster then Tsunade and have better reaction feats. Even with her seal released, she still requires handsigns.

And if you think that Tsunade can't heal a pierced chest or a blown-out stomach/insided, please bear in mind that she single-handedly cured all the Village of Konoha during the Pein invasion. Alone, she supported an entire village.
I doubt even 100 ppl's wounds are comparable to one pierced chest or blown-out stomach, and the village had way more than 100 residents. Saying that she will not deflect a surprise blow from Sasuke is quite questionable, since Chidori can't be used for sneak attacks, you do remember it makes a lot of noise, right? The very moment Sasuke activates the jutsu, Tsunade will know and counter.
See here? Sneak attack with the same properties of Chidori, minus the chirping sound, and Tsunade was still able to dodge it pretty easily.

I never said she couldn't heal it. But don't forget, healing the damage Orochimaru gave her and healing the village both required her to use all the chakra stored in her seal. Chidori is an assassination technique. The sound doesn't matter with the speed he'll be moving. Don't forget, the whole reason Chidori's used with the Sharingan is to prevent that exact situation.

Add the fact that dodging a Chidori/Rasengan isn't a matter of speed, but of reflexes, like Itachi effortlessy blocked Sasuke's Chidori by taking his wrist. And that is not adding to the fact that she can disrupt where Sasuke/Naruto are running, thus ending the jutsu like Naruto did when she separated the road with her finger.
This is the difference between Naruto/Sasuke and Tsunade, back in the days

Itachi has the Sharingan. Tsunde has never shown the sort of reflexes that would allow her to react to his speed. And Naruto doesn't need to run towards Tsunade. He can easily surround her with clones and have several of them use the Rasengan. She would't be able to block them all at once. Anyway, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Sasuke and Naruto with his cloak are much faster then they were before, much faster then Kabuto who had no trouble avoiding Tsunade's blows, not to mention the fact that this isn't a situation where they have to be direct.

[Lemonadez]

Where does it say in third Databook chidori does paralyze?

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chidori <- Find me a proof there.

So how is it Genin Naruto and Genin Sasuke exist on Third Databook?....U dont make sense at all. From Gaara Arc they were only on 2nd Databook. This is Naruto and Sasuke from 2nd Databook (When they were still a kid).

Your not making any sense here at all, using Third Databook is from where Naruto and Sasuke are already Teen version.. Sasuke did not have the Chidori Katana or Chidori Current to paralyze from 2nd Databook.

You can only use Curse Seal from 2nd Databook, it was last shown on Valley of End. You cannot use Sasuke from after 3 yrs with Orochimaru arc...

LOL

Sasuke jutsu
- Katon
- Kawamari
- Fire Shuriken
- Chidori

Sasuke did not know any genjutsu what so ever from 2nd databook.

Naruto jutsu
- Rasengan
- Shadow clone
- Summoning


That all about Sasuke and Naruto jutsu when they were still in konoha as genin..

Tsunade stats come from Third Databook which is her first appearance, her stats speed is equal par against Sasuke genin. Yet Orochimaru speed is on 4.5 from Third databook and still Tsunade able to react against Orochimaru speed and do some pound 4 pound.

So Tsunade will be able to keep up with this 2.

Again we are not talking about the Teen version of Naruto and Sasuke. This is Naruto and Sasuke when they were still a kid.

There is no Shadow Clones + Multiple Rasengan, Naruto never show that feat when he was still a kid. So come back again next time. Naruto only able to pull off that Technique after training with Jiraiya. AGAIN and AGAIN this isn't Teen NARUTO. This is KID KID GENIN naruto and KID SASUKE. Not the TEEN version.

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood

You're basically saying that, since we didn't saw what they can do, that then they can be, like, the stronger ninja alive.
This is flawed logic, no offence.

This is not flawed logic, yor ability to wrap your mind around this is. The very fact that we know NOTHING about them means they they could very well be that. Is that a likely outcome? No. Is that a posibility? Defenetly even if its a small posibility... I am not using the above to prove that they ARE, i am using the above to present the posibility THAT THEY COULD BE and considering the lack in any type of evidence about them they could be because of that.
How the hell can he state Tsunade is better then both of them when he knows NOTHING about there fighting ability? Tsunade could not take down 1 Jounin (kabuto).

The ninja village are hierarchical, the strongest ninjas are Jounins ( the elitè ), while the average ones are Chunins. Above all those ninjas there is a Kage, which is the strongest ninja of the village. Why is that? Because a Kage is expected to protect the village if something happen, so one needs skills to be Kage.
Tsunade has those skills, she not only is the ultimate medic, but also has an offensive that is stronger than the Fourth Raikage's own.
Weaklings do not become Jounins or Kages, rest assured.

Wow really? Naruto is above her, Kakashi is above her, Gai could be above her (in a fight), JMan was above her (yes he turned down the offer), Kabuto was above her(jounin) The above is irrelevant what i have a clear Jounin that would rip her appart and a gennin that would do the same (GENNIN). Aparently nobody in konoha felt the need to upgrade Naruto's status after he owned Pein... I don't care about Kage status.

Weaklings no but aparently Jounins can be more powerfull then Kages and some other people. Aparently the Hakage status is FULL of exceptions.

Bee and Naruto are special cases, and as I said a Kage is generally the strongest, there are exceptions, a Jinchuuriki, which have an enourmous beast made of chakra sealed in their gut is a case, someone who has refused the title like Jiraiya is another, same for missing nins.

Naruto does not even need the Kyuubiu to rip her appart... SM is more then enough....

And I don't know where you got the idea that Kabuto was a wealking

Aparently you can't read or you can't comprehend what i type. I never said he was a weakling.... I said he was a jouning on Kakashi's level (or personal opinion below him).

Kabuto won their "struggle" because he got a convenient soldier pill that restored his chakra and a jutsu that was ideal to counter Tsunade, a jutsu that cut the origin of her super-strenght.
And don't forget, Tsunade was retired from active duty, and so out of shape, and despise that she was on the same level of the like of Kabuto and Kakashi.

That entire fight was Kabuto not wanting to kill her and only incapacitate. This is a BIG Handicap but of coruse anything that would screw your hypothesis is ignored. Also soldier pills are ninja tools aka this is COMPLETLY irrelevant. Even in the manga this is accepted in the chunin exams.
Right because JMan was training every day right? Oh w8 he was drinking and looking at women... Also exacly jounins can kill her... THAT IS THE POINT... She is jounin level in a fight. 2 jounins should make short work of her.

Gai's 8th gate would kill him, Gai's 7th gates attack, while overly impressive, did less damage to Kisame than Tsunade's empowered punch.

First off that was NOT Madara... It was a clone and second that attack had to go trough a water wall (the shark) but yes it looked lame. Still the point was that Gui with his speed, taijutsu skill and so on would outlast her easy even with no gates on bub. Kabuto has nothing on Gai in h2h and speed/power... And Tsunade was not doing good at all there. Yes Gai would take her down...

For the bolded part, yes, Naruto did a splendid job against a drunk, one-fingered Tsunade.
And that Naruto was equal to an empowered Sasuke. Or what, did Tsunade had the Drunken Fist like Lee did?
Keep in mind that Sasuke and Naruto's only chance, CS and Kyuubi cloak, damages their body, so they can't be kept indefinitely. And its not like Tsunade never evaded a jutsu like a Rasengan or a Chidori. Even if it wasn't at full power, the fact remains that she wouldn't be hit by that.

That was obviously about curent Naruto that is OVIOUSLY still gennin and OBVIOUSLY out of her league....

P.S And yes, we know somewhat what kind of skills Genma and Raido have, they were defeated by the Sound Four, with CS2, even if they were short of chakra.
Hardly an overly impressive feat, even though it shows that even Tokubetsu Jounin, which are a step behind normal Jounins, are somewhat strong

Exacly they where short on chakra AND you have no idea what happened there. This is like all the people stating Hashirama is all that because he was able to defeat Madara+Kyuubi when they knew nothing about that fight (ignoring curent Madara's feats and whatever, it was before that). Also CS lvl 2 is impresive... Choji was the size of a mountai (well somewhat) and that CS lvl 2 guy lifted him. You think those 4 where nothing? Right. CS lvl 2 was a huge power boost.
Also you don't know the details, like perhaps traps or how empty those dudes where on chakra.

[Uchiha_Blood]

@Uchiha_Blood
This is not flawed logic, yor ability to wrap your mind around this is. The very fact that we know NOTHING about them means they they could very well be that. Is that a likely outcome? No. Is that a posibility? Defenetly even if its a small posibility... I am not using the above to prove that they ARE, i am using the above to present the posibility THAT THEY COULD BE and considering the lack in any type of evidence about them they could be because of that.
How the hell can he state Tsunade is better then both of them when he knows NOTHING about there fighting ability? Tsunade could not take down 1 Jounin (kabuto).

They could be, true, but it is illogical.
One has to use common sense when debating, making bold and unbelievable statement without proof and claiming tha they may be true because it isn't proven does not make yourself believable, the assumption has to be believable.
And not only Kabuto was on a level of an elitè Jounin, but the two ( Genma & Raido ) aren't even Jounin, but Tokubetsu, or Special, Jounins. Like Ebisu. Ebisu

Wow really? Naruto is above her, Kakashi is above her, Gai could be above her (in a fight), JMan was above her (yes he turned down the offer), Kabuto was above her(jounin) The above is irrelevant what i have a clear Jounin that would rip her appart and a gennin that would do the same (GENNIN). Aparently nobody in konoha felt the need to upgrade Naruto's status after he owned Pein... I don't care about Kage status.

Weaklings no but aparently Jounins can be more powerfull then Kages and some other people. Aparently the Hakage status is FULL of exceptions.

Naruto is now above her, and Naruto is a special case, since:
-never took the Chunin exams since he returned
-he's a Jinchuuriki, the strongest one infact
-he's too young and immature to be Hokage
-he will be Hokage at the end of the manga probably, since its his dream bla bla bla. Kinda like all the other shounens out there, Luffy will be the Pirate King etc.

Gai and Kakashi are debatable, since Tsunade has the means to end them both, and you can't say "Kakashi is stronger than her" like it is a canon fact. Remember you are not Kishi, so whatever is not happened in the manga is debatable.
Would we even thought that Tsunade would be of any use in the fight against Madara 3-4 chapters ago? No.

You may not care about the status of Hokage, but the manga cares, so, again, I believe the manga opinion counts more than your own. I don't find insulting that Tsunade was/is surpassed only by a Jinchuuriki and another Kage level that is Jiraiya

Naruto does not even need the Kyuubiu to rip her appart... SM is more then enough....

Your opinion, and thus a complete speculation until the manga proves you right or wrong.
It is a believable assumption to which I personally agree to, still you can't go around and say it like it is truth. Not be so direct, always leave a small room for doubt. For all we know, Tsunade could kick Naruto's balls with an empowered kick and Naruto would be KO'ed

Aparently you can't read or you can't comprehend what i type. I never said he was a weakling.... I said he was a jouning on Kakashi's level (or personal opinion below him).

Which is saying much more than you think, since Kakashi always was the strongest Jounin of the Leaf, together with Gai. And your personal opinion I respect it, still the manga showed and said otherwise

That entire fight was Kabuto not wanting to kill her and only incapacitate. This is a BIG Handicap but of coruse anything that would screw your hypothesis is ignored. Also soldier pills are ninja tools aka this is COMPLETLY irrelevant. Even in the manga this is accepted in the chunin exams.
Right because JMan was training every day right? Oh w8 he was drinking and looking at women... Also exacly jounins can kill her... THAT IS THE POINT... She is jounin level in a fight. 2 jounins should make short work of her.

True, but as Suigetsu said, you can't capture him without the intent to kill. And a fight isn't won solely by death, you can render your opponent unconscious, and it is still a win. Did Sasuke killed Naruto at VOTE? No. Did Sasuke won? Yes.
It is relevant because it was a plot device studied for the occasion, soldier pills never was used again, the only one that uses them is Kiba ( and arguably the Inuzukas ).
Oh and the Sasuke retrieval team. Guess back in the day Chouji had some use lol.
Still it doesn't change that, should Tsunade had too a soldier pill, the fight wouldn't go the way it went.

And Jiraiya traveled costantly, and had Naruto to train with for 3 years. Also he never retired, but he was on active duty all the time, while Tsunade was retired and Kabuto himself expressed surprise to her level of fighting abilities even after years of inactivity.
Did someone comment on Jiraiya being out of shape? No. Did someone comment on Tsunade being out of shape? Yes

First off that was NOT Madara... It was a clone and second that attack had to go trough a water wall (the shark) but yes it looked lame. Still the point was that Gui with his speed, taijutsu skill and so on would outlast her easy even with no gates on bub. Kabuto has nothing on Gai in h2h and speed/power... And Tsunade was not doing good at all there. Yes Gai would take her down...

Mokuton clones aren't Kage Bushins, and it was so perfect that Madara, the user of the jutsu, said that only him could've tell the difference. That implies that the Mokuton clones has no evident differences to a Mokuton's user normal body. It may be weaker, but, since it fooled 5 Kages, I believe it to be almost indistinguishable from the original

That was obviously about curent Naruto that is OVIOUSLY still gennin and OBVIOUSLY out of her league....

Don't know if you know it, but the topic is about that Naruto.
If you think that this topic talks about the current Naruto and the current Sasuke then we debated for nothing, since I firmly believe that them could obliter Tsunade the way they are in part 2 lol

Exacly they where short on chakra AND you have no idea what happened there. This is like all the people stating Hashirama is all that because he was able to defeat Madara+Kyuubi when they knew nothing about that fight (ignoring curent Madara's feats and whatever, it was before that). Also CS lvl 2 is impresive... Choji was the size of a mountai (well somewhat) and that CS lvl 2 guy lifted him. You think those 4 where nothing? Right. CS lvl 2 was a huge power boost.
Also you don't know the details, like perhaps traps or how empty those dudes where on chakra.

CS2 opponents were defeated, in order, by:
Chouji
Neji
Temari + Shikamaru
Kankurou + Kiba&Akamaru
Gaara

Except for Gaara, do you think that any of the guys above to be impressive? Neji lost to the Naruto that was owned by Tsunade's finger, and Sasuke was owned by the guy that Kankurou beat.
Ah no, Kankurou beat Sakon and Ukon in CS2 while Sasuke, with Sharingan and CS1, was toyed with. You see now the difference in strenght?

[Rikudou King]

Where does it say in third Databook chidori does paralyze?

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chidori <- Find me a proof there.

So how is it Genin Naruto and Genin Sasuke exist on Third Databook?....U dont make sense at all. From Gaara Arc they were only on 2nd Databook. This is Naruto and Sasuke from 2nd Databook (When they were still a kid).

Your not making any sense here at all, using Third Databook is from where Naruto and Sasuke are already Teen version.. Sasuke did not have the Chidori Katana or Chidori Current to paralyze from 2nd Databook.

You can only use Curse Seal from 2nd Databook, it was last shown on Valley of End. You cannot use Sasuke from after 3 yrs with Orochimaru arc...

LOL

Sasuke jutsu
- Katon
- Kawamari
- Fire Shuriken
- Chidori

Sasuke did not know any genjutsu what so ever from 2nd databook.

Naruto jutsu
- Rasengan
- Shadow clone
- Summoning


That all about Sasuke and Naruto jutsu when they were still in konoha as genin..

Tsunade stats come from Third Databook which is her first appearance, her stats speed is equal par against Sasuke genin. Yet Orochimaru speed is on 4.5 from Third databook and still Tsunade able to react against Orochimaru speed and do some pound 4 pound.

So Tsunade will be able to keep up with this 2.

Again we are not talking about the Teen version of Naruto and Sasuke. This is Naruto and Sasuke when they were still a kid.

There is no Shadow Clones + Multiple Rasengan, Naruto never show that feat when he was still a kid. So come back again next time. Naruto only able to pull off that Technique after training with Jiraiya. AGAIN and AGAIN this isn't Teen NARUTO. This is KID KID GENIN naruto and KID SASUKE. Not the TEEN version.

Um, you should read the second paragraph in Description and Effect:

As shown against Killer B, Chidori can also be used to simply give the opponent a large electrical shock without impaling them.

Also, just so you have it, from the third databook:

Chidori Current (千鳥流し, Chidori Nagashi)
Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Short range (0-5m)
User: Uchiha Sasuke

A Chidori flapping its wings into every direction
A profusion of purple lightning, giving both offence and defence at the same time!!

[picture of Sasuke repelling team Kakashi with the Chidori Current]
→The body of the person touched by the "Chidori" will misinterpret the Lightning nature as "electrical signals from the nerves," making its muscles contract. This causes the body to involuntarily go stiff, while at the same time receiving damage.

The one who approaches this body will be attacked all over!!

This ninjutsu makes practical use of the "Chidori" by extending its attack range, in order to make use of the Lightning nature's special characteristic of "temporarily making the muscles of the touched person go stiff," and attempt to enfold multiple enemies. By releasing the "Chidori" in every direction, an electrical discharge flows from one's entire body. This allows one to attack everyone within a specific range. Also, when using this attack on a great number of enemies at once, it also effectively doubles as an instant defence.


Kusanagi* Sword: Chidori** Katana*** (草薙の剣・千鳥刀, Kusanagi no Tsurugi: Chidorigatana)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Uchiha Sasuke

The pallid sharp blade that pierces through everything sings the song of thunder!!

Among those techniques that use a "chakra flow" to raise cutting ability or make use of the "Chidori," this technique in particular is called "Chidori Katana," because it flows Lightning-natured chakra through a katana. The radiating and chirping blade can easily cut up even steel. Furthermore, the body of the person cut by the sword goes numb, taking away their freedom of movement!!

[picture of Yamato being stabbed in the shoulder by Sasuke's Kusanagi Sword]
←The "Chidori" flows through the blade, into the enemy's body. The muscles hit by the electrical current go stiff, making it impossible to move!!

Link.

Paralysis is a characteristic of lightning nature chakra, including Chidori.

As for speed, no. The series makes it clear that Sasuke at max is as fast as Lee, which would mean he can move at 4, as oppose to 3.5. And Tsunade never handled Orochimaru's speed. She only landed a hit when he was stationary.

Naruto's Shadow Clones are capable of anything Naruto can do. Since Naruto can preform the Rasengan, so can his clones.

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood

They could be, true, but it is illogical.
One has to use common sense when debating, making bold and unbelievable statement without proof and claiming tha they may be true because it isn't proven does not make yourself believable, the assumption has to be believable.
And not only Kabuto was on a level of an elitè Jounin, but the two ( Genma & Raido ) aren't even Jounin, but Tokubetsu, or Special, Jounins. Like Ebisu. Ebisu.

Its not inlogical, its higly unlikely(its only inlogical when its not possible). Even something that has a verly low chanse(close to non existing chanse) is logical. If i would claim it as FACT it would be another thing but i make a claim that the posibility exists and it does considering we know jack about it. Also to what i made that claim needs to be taken into consideration. I made that claim in direct response the a statemant that Tsunade is above them as she is Kage when we know nothing about there ability to fight. It was a direct response to him using that lack of information about them to present Tsunade as above them, that is what makes no sense. He was using the Kage title as CLEAR evidence that she is above them. If he would have used it as a posibility it would be diferent.
What if i would say that the posibility of finding 1 bilion dolars on the street exists? Would that be logical or not? Logical yes as that can happen... Now the chanses of that happening...
Is the above posibility believable? Can it happen? Yes it can.

Tokubetsu are as you said special Jounin, they specialize in a given area. That does not mean they are no as good as Jounins in a fight, at best you could state they are not versatile as they specialize in 1 area. But they could be really deadly in that area. Who knows.

Naruto is now above her, and Naruto is a special case, since:
-never took the Chunin exams since he returned
-he's a Jinchuuriki, the strongest one infact
-he's too young and immature to be Hokage
-he will be Hokage at the end of the manga probably, since its his dream bla bla bla. Kinda like all the other shounens out there, Luffy will be the Pirate King etc.

And? Have i ever state is the old one? No... The rest is irrelevant, this just shows that are people who are above kages even if they are still gennin. Rank is not automatically= the best at fightign in a village. That was the point.

Gai and Kakashi are debatable, since Tsunade has the means to end them both, and you can't say "Kakashi is stronger than her" like it is a canon fact. Remember you are not Kishi, so whatever is not happened in the manga is debatable.
Would we even thought that Tsunade would be of any use in the fight against Madara 3-4 chapters ago? No.

Well its not... really. If Kabuto can avoid getting hit(at least something that would be really bad) and land hits himself Gai would have 0 difuculty in doing that. It will just take a long time to put her down because of the regen. Gai using 2 gates or so = Tsunade not landing a punch.

Kakashi... 1 word KAMUI and she is dead. Its not really relevant the fact that she can hurt them as long as she can't actualy land those blows where she needs. She can hurt even Naruto if Naruto is standing still in normal mode.
Tsunade is not of use vs Madara in a non-plot based fight. She dies when Madara states AMATERASU. This is clear plot no jutsu sry. Also she is not alone.

Your opinion, and thus a complete speculation until the manga proves you right or wrong.
It is a believable assumption to which I personally agree to, still you can't go around and say it like it is truth. Not be so direct, always leave a small room for doubt. For all we know, Tsunade could kick Naruto's balls with an empowered kick and Naruto would be KO'ed

Going by feats this is fact sry. There is no way in hell she can do shit to him. Naruto can summon 100 clones in SM, create rasengans the size of houses, has speed way above her, super senses, can summon an entire mountain of giant frogs to help him out, super genjutsu from Ma and Pa and so on... He is clearly superior. What you need Kishi showing you ET Madara defeating Konahamaru to belive it?
Yes Tsunade could do good damage to Naruto if she could hit him direcly but that is not happening... Her ability to do damage to him is not really relevant as long as she can't hit him.
Again those 2 have absolutly no showen feats to deduce what they can do, i defenetly can't state they are above Tsunade but that guy can't state she is. THAT IS THE POINT. If this would be a fight here, in the battle section yes she would win as they have no feats but to make a point using logic and comparing Tsunade and those 2 is nonsense as you don't have a premise to base your hypothesis.

Which is saying much more than you think, since Kakashi always was the strongest Jounin of the Leaf, together with Gai. And your personal opinion I respect it, still the manga showed and said otherwise

Showed what? That she is above Kakashi? I don't understand. She defenetly is in diferent areas but that is all i can give her. If its a direct fight, 1vs1 (and not suporting trough healing and that is very important to) Kakashi would defenetly own her with Kamui. Hell let them charge at 1 another, kakashi with Raikiri and Tsunade with her punch ... Gues what would happen considering Kakashi has his sharingan? I just don't see her having a chanse vs Kakashi when Kabuto was dodging and even outspeeding her at times.

True, but as Suigetsu said, you can't capture him without the intent to kill. And a fight isn't won solely by death, you can render your opponent unconscious, and it is still a win. Did Sasuke killed Naruto at VOTE? No. Did Sasuke won? Yes.

The point is its harder. Even Kabuto stated he could have when for vitals here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/164/12
He was holding back and that is all i need to say here.

Also Sasuke whent for the kill multiple times, he was not tring to save or stop Naruto, NARUTO WAS. Naruto was just luky enough to be left alive at the end of it.

It is relevant because it was a plot device studied for the occasion, soldier pills never was used again, the only one that uses them is Kiba ( and arguably the Inuzukas ).

Ninja tools are not plot devices, are valid ninja weapons stated so in the manga. If you whant to discard it and call it plot no jutsu be my gues.

Still it doesn't change that, should Tsunade had too a soldier pill, the fight wouldn't go the way it went.

The posibility exists of course but Kabuto has techs that can put her down in single strike as i linked you above but he was holding back.

And Jiraiya traveled costantly, and had Naruto to train with for 3 years. Also he never retired, but he was on active duty all the time, while Tsunade was retired and Kabuto himself expressed surprise to her level of fighting abilities even after years of inactivity.
Did someone comment on Jiraiya being out of shape? No. Did someone comment on Tsunade being out of shape? Yes

You do have a point above what people stated but JMan was not training, he was just traveling. I can't even imagine ninjas that would give JMan a good workout in his travels, you need top dogs for that.

Mokuton clones aren't Kage Bushins, and it was so perfect that Madara, the user of the jutsu, said that only him could've tell the difference. That implies that the Mokuton clones has no evident differences to a Mokuton's user normal body. It may be weaker, but, since it fooled 5 Kages, I believe it to be almost indistinguishable from the original

Actualy Madara stated:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/577/12
He could see trough it with his eyes, SC are better as Sharingan can't tell the diference. Going by this its not a perfect 1:1 replica. Now i have no idea what diferences are so i can't state they its weaker or stronger but the fact remainds that it was not the original.

Don't know if you know it, but the topic is about that Naruto.
If you think that this topic talks about the current Naruto and the current Sasuke then we debated for nothing, since I firmly believe that them could obliter Tsunade the way they are in part 2 lol

I know what this topic is about but i was addresing Tsunade Kage level and the title of Kage in general, this was evident from what i stated there.

CS2 opponents were defeated, in order, by:
Chouji
Neji
Temari + Shikamaru
Kankurou + Kiba&Akamaru
Gaara

Except for Gaara, do you think that any of the guys above to be impressive? Neji lost to the Naruto that was owned by Tsunade's finger, and Sasuke was owned by the guy that Kankurou beat.
Ah no, Kankurou beat Sakon and Ukon in CS2 while Sasuke, with Sharingan and CS1, was toyed with. You see now the difference in strenght?

Chouji had to use his special pill and you can see now what he can do with butterfly mode(probably not the same but still).
Neji owned Naruto, Naruto + Kyuubi beat him. its a diference.
Temari and Shika is a killer combo. Even Tsunade getting traped in that shadow and then Temari cutting her head off with wind and makes perfect sense.
Kankuro himself is powerfull and if he traps you in those puppes its over.
Sasuke lost because it was 4vs1 dude. Also when Sasuke used CS they used CS to.

Also this is Sasuke with 3 tomoe, the diference is good enough, going from getting completly owned by Naruto with Kyuubi chakra to owning Naruto. CS lvl.2 gives a boost to lvl 1 CS to:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/219/10
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/219/11
Sasuke was baffled by it. The diference is HUGE.

[chilibun]

I'm not seeing the issue. Sasuke was having just as much trouble with Haku's max speed as he was having with Lee's blitz. The only difference is the fight with Lee didn't go beyond that first blow while as the fight with Haku went on, Sasuke was beginning to be able to read his movement and be able to avoid critical blows. As I already showed, even against Lee, Sasuke was still able to see his movements enough to completely copy his style. Neither situation was much different.

Sasuke using only taijutsu without his Sharingan proceeded to block and land blows on them all before eventually running into trouble due to Sakon's special ability. How was that not holding his own when he wasn't even going full out? If that wasn't holding his own, then how the heck was what Tsunade did against Kabuto holding her own when she was going all out and could barely even touch Kabuto who was avoiding a killing blow? I gave you several examples of Sasuke also fighting against ninjas comparable to Kakashi when he was still a newbie and being capable of surprising and landing blows on them.

Anyway, there's a flaw in your reasoning. Kakashi caught Naruto and Sasuke while they were in midair and unable to move. Not to mention he came in from the side. In an actual clash, I already established that even before his boost, Sasuke was able to surprise and land a blow on Kakashi. Same with several other ninjas. If Sasuke could do that before he got speeds equal to Lee, then why would he have trouble after such a boost? You're also acting as if it'll be a direct physical clash and ignoring their abilities. How's Tsunade gonna reach them and attempt to land a hit when she'll have to waste chakra going through a thousand clones beforehand? Each punch will cost quite a bit of chakra and she has no way to eliminate many clones at once. Also, her healing ability doesn't work that way. To heal, she still has to form handsigns and wait for her wounds to close. She's not Ee, she can't deliberately tank a Chidori and continue fighting. And don't forget, once her seal is activated, she'll be on a time limit. She'll only have a few minutes to continue fighting until she returns back to her real age and drops in a coma. So they merely have to stall for time and she be defenseless in the end.

You need to stop using half-truths to prove your points. A sharingan-less Sasuke was having problems with Haku's speed. Once Sasuke awoke his sharingans, he was fully capable of dodging Hauk's attack and countering. Against Lee, Sasuke even with the sharingan could could not follow his movements. Whether his sharingan could copy it or not is irrelevant, as he clearly could not understand it. Sasuke thought it was a genjutsu or ninjutsu before Lee explained it to him. Lee with weights on is superior to Haku's speed.

Neither Kakashi nor Oro fought Sasuke at 100%. Both were just testing him and seeing what his limits are. Its like me playing basketball with my 12 year old cousin. I take it easy and allow him to do things. Occasionally, he'll surprise me with what he can do, but if I went all out, he wouldn't even be able to score a point. Same reasoning here. Like I said, if Sasuke is even remotely comparable to Kakashi and Oro during those early tests, then Lee must heads and shoulders above them and that does not make sense at all.

Tsunade's doesn't need to use seals to heal herself every time. She only needs to use it once to release the sealed chakra and to activate her rebirth jutsu. The current chapter confirms this. Tsunade also doesn't need to be fully healed to throw a punch, so she can absolutely eat a chidori just to grab onto Sasuke and punch his head off. Again, the current chapter further confirms that she can do this. Isn't your major argument that Tsunade isn't fast enough to land her hits? Well, Tsunade has shown good speed against Kabuto. Even, if you do believe that both Sasuke and Naruto is faster than both Kabuto and Tsunade, they are not that far beyond them to the point where they can't react and counter. Both Sasuke and Naruto relies on close quarter combat at his point and there is little chance they can land a hit without receiving one themselves. Tsunade is fully capable of just tanking a chidori/rasengan and healing back up though, while neither Sasuke or Naruto can even block a punch without getting their bodies broken by Tsunade's strength.

[Uchiha_Blood]

@Uchiha_Blood


Its not inlogical, its higly unlikely(its only inlogical when its not possible). Even something that has a verly low chanse(close to non existing chanse) is logical. If i would claim it as FACT it would be another thing but i make a claim that the posibility exists and it does considering we know jack about it. Also to what i made that claim needs to be taken into consideration. I made that claim in direct response the a statemant that Tsunade is above them as she is Kage when we know nothing about there ability to fight. It was a direct response to him using that lack of information about them to present Tsunade as above them, that is what makes no sense. He was using the Kage title as CLEAR evidence that she is above them. If he would have used it as a posibility it would be diferent.
What if i would say that the posibility of finding 1 bilion dolars on the street exists? Would that be logical or not? Logical yes as that can happen... Now the chanses of that happening...
Is the above posibility believable? Can it happen? Yes it can.

Tokubetsu are as you said special Jounin, they specialize in a given area. That does not mean they are no as good as Jounins in a fight, at best you could state they are not versatile as they specialize in 1 area. But they could be really deadly in that area. Who knows.

Ok, highly unlikely.
Still doesn't change the fact that they aren't all that imho. Hell, they can't catch an half-powered Muu!

And? Have i ever state is the old one? No... The rest is irrelevant, this just shows that are people who are above kages even if they are still gennin. Rank is not automatically= the best at fightign in a village. That was the point.

There aren't people, there is one person, that is Naruto, which is the main character.
Find me another Genin who is superior to a Kage that isn't Sasuke ( who is a missing nin anyway and the other main character )

Well its not... really. If Kabuto can avoid getting hit(at least something that would be really bad) and land hits himself Gai would have 0 difuculty in doing that. It will just take a long time to put her down because of the regen. Gai using 2 gates or so = Tsunade not landing a punch.

Kakashi... 1 word KAMUI and she is dead. Its not really relevant the fact that she can hurt them as long as she can't actualy land those blows where she needs. She can hurt even Naruto if Naruto is standing still in normal mode.
Tsunade is not of use vs Madara in a non-plot based fight. She dies when Madara states AMATERASU. This is clear plot no jutsu sry. Also she is not alone.

Again debatable. I doubt that Gai, even in his awesomeness, would speedblitz Kabuto.
Speed isn't everything, Gai would punch Tsunade and she would punch him in return. Tsunade is up, Gai is down.

And yet in the recent chapters Tsunade is being impressive, whetever you like it or not. And again, don't say things that didn't happen as absolute, for all we know Tsunade can own Amaterasu or whatever jutsu Madara has, in a way that we didn't think of, unlikely as it is. And Kamui is never user right off the bat, like Susano'o and Amaterasu either. It is a last resort, since if he misses one shot he can't move. Say that he uses Kamui, Tsunade escapes like Deidara did by missing an arm, Tsunade uses the other to punch the recovering Kakashi.
Kakashi is dead.
Until Kishi showed it, one can always have the benefit of doubt

Going by feats this is fact sry. There is no way in hell she can do shit to him. Naruto can summon 100 clones in SM, create rasengans the size of houses, has speed way above her, super senses, can summon an entire mountain of giant frogs to help him out, super genjutsu from Ma and Pa and so on... He is clearly superior. What you need Kishi showing you ET Madara defeating Konahamaru to belive it?
Yes Tsunade could do good damage to Naruto if she could hit him direcly but that is not happening... Her ability to do damage to him is not really relevant as long as she can't hit him.
Again those 2 have absolutly no showen feats to deduce what they can do, i defenetly can't state they are above Tsunade but that guy can't state she is. THAT IS THE POINT. If this would be a fight here, in the battle section yes she would win as they have no feats but to make a point using logic and comparing Tsunade and those 2 is nonsense as you don't have a premise to base your hypothesis.

Did Tsunade had any feats that she could broke Susano'o before last week's chapter? No.
Did Tsunade broke Susano'o by doing more damage than Raikage's and Tsuchikage's jutsus combined? Yes.
As I said I too believe that SM Naruto would win, but one misstep, and Naruto can be dealt severe damage. And the toads would be countered by Tsunade's summons, since both Snakes and Toads have multi-summons it is likely to assume that Katsuyu has other "brothers/sisters".
They are legendary summons after all

Showed what? That she is above Kakashi? I don't understand. She defenetly is in diferent areas but that is all i can give her. If its a direct fight, 1vs1 (and not suporting trough healing and that is very important to) Kakashi would defenetly own her with Kamui. Hell let them charge at 1 another, kakashi with Raikiri and Tsunade with her punch ... Gues what would happen considering Kakashi has his sharingan? I just don't see her having a chanse vs Kakashi when Kabuto was dodging and even outspeeding her at times.

Simple, Kakashi goes for the kill with raikiri, stabs her ( in the case that he manages to do it ), Tsunade grabs him and punch him.
Kakashi is dead.
On close range, unless you have Susano'o or super-speed it is really dangerous to go against Tsunade, and Naruto/Sasuke have neither of the two

The point is its harder. Even Kabuto stated he could have when for vitals here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/164/12
He was holding back and that is all i need to say here.

That didn't change the fact that he hit her, and that he was gonna make her unconscious, thus winning.
And if we go by what ppl in the manga said, then the Third Hokage would be stronger than Hashirama

Ninja tools are not plot devices, are valid ninja weapons stated so in the manga. If you whant to discard it and call it plot no jutsu be my gues.

I said the truth, the fact that Kabuto gained the upper hand not thanks to superior skills but thanks to his soldier pills.
He was clever? Sure. He was stronger? Not so sure

The posibility exists of course but Kabuto has techs that can put her down in single strike as i linked you above but he was holding back.

Considering what she survived in the last chapters, I highly doubt it. Did Kabuto knew of her seal on the forehead?
No

You do have a point above what people stated but JMan was not training, he was just traveling. I can't even imagine ninjas that would give JMan a good workout in his travels, you need top dogs for that.

One does not need training to keep himself in shape, training servs to improve himself, a daily workout would've kept Jiraiya in shape, since, at 50, I doubt he would've improved much

Actualy Madara stated:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/577/12
He could see trough it with his eyes, SC are better as Sharingan can't tell the diference. Going by this its not a perfect 1:1 replica. Now i have no idea what diferences are so i can't state they its weaker or stronger but the fact remainds that it was not the original.

The way is going the manga in the last chapter, I believe I am correct

Chouji had to use his special pill and you can see now what he can do with butterfly mode(probably not the same but still).
Neji owned Naruto, Naruto + Kyuubi beat him. its a diference.
Temari and Shika is a killer combo. Even Tsunade getting traped in that shadow and then Temari cutting her head off with wind and makes perfect sense.
Kankuro himself is powerfull and if he traps you in those puppes its over.
Sasuke lost because it was 4vs1 dude. Also when Sasuke used CS they used CS to.

Chouji was impressive, but it was a single strike against the weakest of the four/five.
Neji owned Naruto, true, but he was defeated not by a Kyuubified naruto, but by base naruto. The kyuubi reopened his Tenketsu and enabled him to fight on par with him.
Temari did all by herself, and Shika was outpowered by Tayuya, a girl that has the physical strenght of Ino, maybe, while being brilliant in ninjutsu and genjutsu.
Kankurou was good, but not that good.
And no, Sasuke lost 1 on 1 against Sakon alone. Sasuke with a Sharingan. He used CS1, he was owned with another CS1.
I just don't see how both of them are oh so impressive in part 1.
For genins yes, anything above that no imho

Also this is Sasuke with 3 tomoe, the diference is good enough, going from getting completly owned by Naruto with Kyuubi chakra to owning Naruto. CS lvl.2 gives a boost to lvl 1 CS to:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/219/10
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/219/11
Sasuke was baffled by it. The diference is HUGE.

That kyuubified Naruto was on par with Neji. Not this elitè jounin-level enemy, but Neji. And don't forget that CS2 isn't mantainable indefinitely, after a single strike Sasuke felt the counter-effects. And even by all that, they can't kill Tsunade, and even if they by some miracle can do it, the moment they strike, is the moment Tsunade strikes back. Tsunade is the only healer of the three, and the best alive at that, and can heal without a problem her wounds. Sasuke would be 1HKO'd by Tsunade, Naruto maybe not thanks to Kyuubi, but he would be greatly dehibilitated

---------- Post added at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:21 AM ----------

Like I said, if Sasuke is determined, his Chidori will do more damage. Note the difference in size between the one he used on Naruto and the one he used against Itachi. Naruto was empowered by the Kyuubi's chakra, which we know grants him a boost and Sasuke didn't need to worry because he was still gonna land his blow. Tsunade has nothing to grant her such a boost. Tsunade couldn't even react to Kabuto getting behind her and landing a blow, while Sasuke could surprise both Kakashi and Haku, who was said to be stronger then Zabuza. Both of them are faster then Tsunade and have better reaction feats. Even with her seal released, she still requires handsigns.

Haku is faster than Tsunade? No, really.
And Sasuke was pretty determinated against Naruto, he wanted to kill him in one strike, and he felt good doing so, and not only that, but he was empowered by CS1. No way that his Chidori can do more.
And Tsunade did react, Kabuto simply needed to touch her, and was hit after. They both hit each other, but not only Kabuto was rested, but also he has a jutsu that requires a simple touch to be effective. Like Hyuuga's Junken.
And as I showed you, if I remember right, Tsunade reacted to a sneak attach without a problem. Even if by miracle sasuke and naruto are as fast as Kabuto, they do not have a jutsu that can cut Tsunade's source of strenght, thus the moment Tsunade hit them back it is over.
Would they survive such a hit? No.

I never said she couldn't heal it. But don't forget, healing the damage Orochimaru gave her and healing the village both required her to use all the chakra stored in her seal. Chidori is an assassination technique. The sound doesn't matter with the speed he'll be moving. Don't forget, the whole reason Chidori's used with the Sharingan is to prevent that exact situation.

Chidori is an assassination jutsu because it assures, usually, a 1 hit kill. The jutsu is pretty flashy and does a pretty loud screech, so it isn't by any means undetectable. The moment Sasuke runs, Tsunade can one-finger destroy where he is, thus making him do the same end Naruto did.
Blasting the Chidori on the ground.

and in the recent chapter she effortlessy healed a wound even more critical than a Chidori to the lung. So really, they are even more screwed imho since it isn't even a doubt anymore that she can survive both their signature jutsu

Itachi has the Sharingan. Tsunde has never shown the sort of reflexes that would allow her to react to his speed. And Naruto doesn't need to run towards Tsunade. He can easily surround her with clones and have several of them use the Rasengan. She would't be able to block them all at once. Anyway, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Sasuke and Naruto with his cloak are much faster then they were before, much faster then Kabuto who had no trouble avoiding Tsunade's blows, not to mention the fact that this isn't a situation where they have to be direct.

An one-eyed, Sharingan-less Kakashi did the same thing to Sasuke and Naruto before they even knew what was going on.
Reflexes aren't a pecualirity of Sharingan users