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Thread: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

  1. #256
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Considering that in your own post you referred to Kabuto's condition, I don't know what other reason you can attribute to his decision take a soldier pill. If taking on Tsunade was as easy as you've claimed, why did Kabuto's comments and actions suggest the opposite. I've already qualified the relatively of 'low' and the obvious difference in priorities between their two situations. And Sakura utilised said healing while also utilising her overwhelming strength, if both are as burdensome as you suggest how was Saskura capable of such feats? Also, just an aside, if Sakura wasn't using her seal when they faced the Juubi, whose chakra was she utilising to heal so many injuries for the forces if the chakra cost of healing is so great? To your examples about people carrying on with more damage; Danzo died shortly after and he was utilising Hashirama's cells, and I'm not sure what you're referencing with Sasuke, or with Konan. A number of characters have shown it, and the shinobi from Otogakure were able to use a summoning technique through combined means. And the difference with sensors, is that they've been specifically characterised as a type of ninja with each one being labelled as such with their special abilities, when Tsunade and Gama used it, it wasn't even worth a mention, it was just something done in passing. Yes, he was incapable of acting to do almost anything, he wanted his strength restored, and I mentioned taking on Jiraiya because obviously that would be far more difficult than taking Sasuke, it obviously wasn't difficult to get into Konoha. No, there wasn't, what's your point? That's completely consistent with what I've said over and over again at this point.
    * There wasn't an issue with Kabuto's condition til after that point, and as pointed out, the only reason the fight continued was because Kabuto wanted it to.
    * Because Kabuto was holding back, he was trying to take her alive, which the series has shown to be much harder then fighting to kill (i.e. Team Taka's fight with Kirabi).
    * In which post?
    * Because her chakra control allows her to make the most of it, and even then she only has a handful of usages of either available. Point is we have Tsunade herself, Sakura, and Chiyo, all medical ninjas, acknowledging that this is all costly to use.
    * Outside of when she had the cloak, when was Sakura shown healing any of the Alliance forces apart from Naruto once?
    * Danzo was still capable of preforming one more technique and action before said death, despite being pierced through the heart. And Hashirama's cells had been lost before that point. Sasuke against Kirabi, who stabbed him with numerous swords. And Konan against Obito.
    * Except that's not exactly true. Some, like Karin and Shi, were called out for it, but quite a few (Minato, Kakashi, Tobirama) did so as you say as if it was just something done in passing.
    * He wanted Sasuke's body, he was shown in a massive rush to get it. He was at his very limit, and had to depend on others to do the work for him. So the idea that he wouldn't instead depend on a single person to channel his techniques through to preform the same action makes no sense.
    * Um, the point is that Naruto doesn't have to call upon the Kyuubi's chakra to get it, the point I have been arguing this whole time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    How many barrier experts has the manga shown? Obviously that was arrogance because there's an almost endless list of people they wouldn't be able to handle. And yet you've little problem making claims about their ability level despite the manga suggesting otherwise. I'm absolutely certain that defeating the Sound Four was included in there. Maybe a simplification shouldn't include quotations for words I never said. And the Jounin would be helping the genin already on the mission. It's not pointless, it's what they've shown, and the databook clearly indicates what the difference is. And Anko lost handily to Oro, and Hayate stopped a genin who wasn't even paying attention to him, these aren't much in the way of support for the supposed ability of Tokubetsu Jounin. Considering that was pretty much his body that switched, that's as good as you get from him. Did I not mention catching them both in a genjutsu already? Those counterpoints were entirely unconvincing; one questioned the ability of the Jounin to inflict fatal wounds, obviously not the case. You generalised when you claimed that Sakon was stronger than Jounin without any actual sound basis for such a statement, I didn't generalise, when you questioned how Jounin would defeat him, I listed the Konoha Jounin we'd seen something from.
    * Quite a few actually, especially during the current arc.
    * There is hardly an "endless" list, especially one of characters disproving said claim.
    * Except the manga hasn't suggested otherwise, which has been my point. I pointed to several examples where Special Jounins preformed as well as, if not better, then a Jounin.
    * Of course, but not in the way indicating it was a cake-walk or something "beneath" a group of Jounin.
    * Are you saying that wasn't what you were implying, which was the whole reason they got quoted?
    * The pointlessness is trying to apply current standards to back then. And what they showed was equal skills, which is the point. Losing doesn't matter, Anko was actually willing and attempted to fight against Orochimaru, whereas Kakashi was scared to even try it. And Hayate was shown equally as fast as the three Jounins, which was the point. Now you claim they were shown below the skills of Jounin, so if that is the case, then feel free to actually show a Special Jounin being incapable or doing worst then a Jounin at something.
    * But it's not really the same as with Kankuro, who hides his body and has his puppet pretend to be him.
    * You can't catch them both when one is inside the other, which is how the whole Bijuu thing came up.
    * It's also obviously not the case where every single Jounin would be capable of landing a fatal blow instantly, which is kind of important to the argument. And you generalized that the few listed Jounins being possibly capable of fighting them meant every Jounin would be capable of the same, which can't be proven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm pretty sure I've made my point about Gaara's sand; it got faster, so its speed feats in Part 2 are irrelevant. An additional resource I avoided until you mentioned it because of the inconsistency some believe it is rife with, but if you consider it a trusted source when it comes to stats, I see little reason to debate about speed, the databook makes it quite clear that Sasuke's speed isn't going to overwhelm Tsunade's. That would seem obvious, Sasuke who was obviously far slower than Kakashi at the time was a match for Haku's speed, it was only through the use of his mirrors that Haku's speed reached more impressive levels. The Kages' reactions and Madara's abilities speak for themselves when it comes to that attack. Which wasn't disputed, but the same technique utilised by two different individuals at different levels isn't going to be the same strength. I've never questioned Sasuke's ability to use certain katons, shifting the debate from what I actually addressed isn't going to change that.
    * Not really, as you have yet to show where Gaara's sand was actually called out as faster in Part Two aside from the aforementioned time with Onoki. And the tsunami of sand wasn't a Part Two moment as I showed.
    * Pretty sure the databooks were mentioned before this point. No, the databooks show that Sasuke would overwhelm Tsunade. Not only because Kabuto did the same, but also because Sasuke's max speed was specifically stated to be on par with both Haku and Gaara, who both are even faster then Tsunade.
    * Haku was holding back, which doesn't change the overall point. Both Zabuza and Kakashi acknowledged Haku was more skilled.
    * And were either about power, then you would have a point, but they weren't.
    * And since I have never argued that they would have the same strength or do more then minor damage, nothing has been shifted. The only reason Sasuke's usage of it was called out was to help show it was different from the other Katons that Madara had used, which had originally been done a while ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Have I proposed something else for her to do beyond what she's shown? And that was that plan, what does that have to do with what's going on now? And they're going to whisper to one another in the middle of battle, great. I was unaware that Sasuke's presence alone made Naruto composed. Based on what was shown before and after, it's an obvious one to come to. Now its six punches, at least we're moving the needle slightly. Although, I'd like to point out that she also used her raiton technique and kicked Oro before the seal. By that argument Rasengan and Chidori are low-level techniques, why even bother? It makes a lot of sense, the 3rd and Dodai's comments and the sequence of events confirm it. It was her technique, the Kamatari was included. And once again, we can see the difference from your scale and the manga's over any number of pages, your scale is just wrong.
    * Then why bring this all up when I had already acknowledged that was all Tsunade would be capable of in this fight?
    * It shows that they would be able to pull off a plan without speaking, as they know each other so well. And also, I brought up them using that same tactic against Tsunade a while ago.
    * Well since they would have a disposal army to take the heat and attention, there would be nothing stopping them from doing so.
    * Um, it doesn't. But Sasuke being there means that there will be someone to direct Naruto and help him not make such mistakes.
    * How is it an obviously conclusion? The whole reason for running away originally was to go to a less crowded area. There would have been no reason for Kabuto to attempt to fight while on the run.
    * The needle is where it has been, since I never said differently. And what kick are you talking about?
    * It's not even close to the same argument. We're talking specifically how these techniques fared against the Sandaime Raikage and how that matches up to what we were told.
    * But the sequence doesn't confirm it, which is the issue. If it was confirmed, the Temari's attack wouldn't have been able to do anything. The very fact that the only way to get through the cloak (which tanked a Bijuu Blast I should remind you) was to employ the cloak itself shows that the defensive power was in the cloak, not his body as was claimed.
    * It's her technique in the sense that she summons Kamatari to do it, but it's Kamatari who's doing the actual damage.
    * If my scale was wrong, then Naruto wouldn't even be visible on Gamabunta's head, yet he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    He didn't have control, if he could keep it in, that would seem to fit. And after that its sealed. That comment stems from what? The charge factors into the total time necessary to execute the technique, I've already pointed this out. From their battle, they weren't equal. That doesn't change that he was able to. Didn't you just point to Kakashi holding Itachi? No, he wasn't hit in the process of using Chidori, it was prior to that, but as I explained he was hitting a moving target in the middle of the air. Isn't much. Yes, the Sharingan has predictive qualities, but isn't anywhere near what you're suggesting, it doesn't make the user untouchable, and I'm pretty sure Sharingan users have missed attacks against slower opponents. No, one of their attacks aren't sure to hit, and Rasengan is an obvious attack also with the manner Naruto utilises it. Does any of this change the fact that Sasuke made it very clear that he couldn't keep up CS fro any serious length of time?
    * No, since the CS was meant to be drawn upon and used.
    * From your usage of Tsunade shoving Kabuto as an example of her counterattacking.
    * And until you show where it was indicated that the charge makes the execution slow or easy to handle, I shall stick with the established idea that the charge doesn't affect it in a negative way at all.
    * Um, I pointed to the Kakashi clone touching a fake Itachi...
    * It would be enough to avoid the attack, as we have been shown.
    * How is it not anywhere near to what I'm suggesting when what I'm suggesting is exactly what has been shown in the manga? As said before, feel free to show a slower character landing a blow on a Sharingan-user. The series make the advantage clear, unless they have some trick or are faster, an enemy isn't simply gonna hit a Sharingan-user, especially straight on.
    * So you're gonna try and argue that not only will Tsunade be capable of standing there and waiting for Sasuke to come in with his attack to counterattack, but she will also be capable of avoiding Naruto's attack while she does this?
    * The point is that such limitations only apply to the first use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    To show that Naruto wasn't a major concern at the time. You pointed out the issues with that? By that, you mean you tried to say it was meaningless despite it being consistent. You haven't provided a single example that goes beyond my characterisation of Naruto's use of the Kyuubi's chakra. It was, it's been a part of the debate for some time, it was mentioned with from my early posts on the subject. And do either of those examples counter what my statement has ben from the beginning? No, they don't. Trying to be right, while being wrong, has made you prolong this unnecessarily for some time. And I disagree, obviously. By the mechanics of the jutsu, they are, I mean it isn't worth a debate. It's easy because the manga lays it out explicitly. When I talk about Naruto, I'm including clones he's summoned, because they're his technique. We were addressing his condition. But you mentioned it, and I responded to it, so as I said, you brought it up.
    * But Four-tail Naruto was a concern, as it was acknowledged by Orochimaru himself that it could potentially kill him.
    * No, I pointed out that it didn't fit with what was established, that every other time that Naruto asked for the Kyuubi's chakra, he got it right away, so him asking for it and not getting it makes no sense.
    * I have provided examples showing that Naruto doesn't have to ask to get the Kyuubi's chakra.
    * No it hasn't. I have never argued against the idea that Naruto has asked for the Kyuubi's chakra. My claim was that he didn't have to ask to get it, there isn't anything in the manga supporting the idea that the only way that Naruto would get the chakra is by asking.
    * Yeah, they do. you have attempted from the beginning to argue that not only does Naruto have to ask just to get the Kyuubi's chakra, but that him getting the Kyuubi's chakra takes more then a moment as I have claimed from the beginning.
    * You are the one who has prolonged this discussion. You claim that Naruto has to ask to get the Kyuubi's chakra, despite what has been shown and your own comment. You also have claimed that any attempts at getting the Kyuubi's chakra would take time, despite every example but ONE showing differently.
    * Feel free to show more clones being weaker then a few clones then.
    * Which, as pointed out, can be taken several ways.
    * But the usage of a technique only applies to chakra usage and I already acknowledged that factor beforehand.
    * And as I have said, he was getting empowered by the Cursed Seal.
    * You claimed that I implied that a thousand clones would be using Rasengan, which was never implied in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Still Naruto with one of his techniques. Big enough for a battle of that scale to fit in without any problem. She does have that raiton technique and a summon, and some medical ninjutsu. Viable, it's an option. It did make them fight at a level far beneath that which would they would use against their peers. Yes, I meant above.
    * The clones are their own individuals.
    * As said, not that massively wide. Naruto was able to jump across without a problem.
    * Her raiton requires a touch, which puts in with the same group as her taijutsu, and the others have already been acknowledged.
    * How? It requires physical touch, meaning that if she is close enough to touch, she would probably be punching to actually achieve something. And it doesn't seem like it does any damage, so it's not as if it would be an easy way around the clones. Exactly what options does it give her?
    * Except it wasn't "far", because as mentioned, Sasuke was already well ahead of his rank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm not sure who these people are that assumed that she could heal from anything, but they sound pretty eager. But, my point was that some of the very same feats, particularly in reference to speed, that I utilised here and you attempted to discredit were the same that you used in the Tsunade v Minato thread. You argued that she would be capable of taking a blow and reacting sufficiently to bring down supposedly the fastest shinobi ever, emphasis on the supposedly, yet you're saying she wouldn't be capable of doing it against either of these two. And to wear her out they have to attack her, up close and personal, but we've already gone over this, and that's if they don't get worn out themselves on the way there.
    * It was assumed because before the current arc show differently, her healing was made out to be that way.
    * Aside from the fact that I have made it clear in several threads that I don't considered Minato as fast as people have made out outside of Hiraishin, I'm quite sure it's clear what the different is here - the Sharingan's prediction, a mass of clones, and their CS2/Cloak. I have gone in great detail about how thanks to his speed and Sharingan, Sasuke would be able to predict any action that Tsunade attempted and prepare for it, and how thanks to his clones, Naruto doesn't need to get close to attack Tsunade with the Rasengan. I also spoke about how Naruto's cloak form grants him the means to block and attack from a distances, with enough force to rip through solid stone. All Minato had going for him offensively was a kunai or Rasengan.
    * Except that they don't, because by the very nature of her own techniques, she'll get worn out even if they choose not to go in close for the attack. Not to mention that Sasuke has range tactics, and Naruto gains ranged abilities upon going One-tail, as was mentioned in the very beginning. They have FAR more options then Minato had.

  2. #257
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    * There wasn't an issue with Kabuto's condition til after that point, and as pointed out, the only reason the fight continued was because Kabuto wanted it to.
    * Because Kabuto was holding back, he was trying to take her alive, which the series has shown to be much harder then fighting to kill (i.e. Team Taka's fight with Kirabi).
    * In which post?
    * Because her chakra control allows her to make the most of it, and even then she only has a handful of usages of either available. Point is we have Tsunade herself, Sakura, and Chiyo, all medical ninjas, acknowledging that this is all costly to use.
    * Outside of when she had the cloak, when was Sakura shown healing any of the Alliance forces apart from Naruto once?
    * Danzo was still capable of preforming one more technique and action before said death, despite being pierced through the heart. And Hashirama's cells had been lost before that point. Sasuke against Kirabi, who stabbed him with numerous swords. And Konan against Obito.
    * Except that's not exactly true. Some, like Karin and Shi, were called out for it, but quite a few (Minato, Kakashi, Tobirama) did so as you say as if it was just something done in passing.
    * He wanted Sasuke's body, he was shown in a massive rush to get it. He was at his very limit, and had to depend on others to do the work for him. So the idea that he wouldn't instead depend on a single person to channel his techniques through to preform the same action makes no sense.
    * Um, the point is that Naruto doesn't have to call upon the Kyuubi's chakra to get it, the point I have been arguing this whole time.
    According to one of your points he was pretty worn down even before then, and that's not what Kabuto's comments and actions suggest. Multiple posts, but to rehash, Kabuto has less chakra and his condition was far more severe and he was unable to perform something that would seem integral to his survival because of the lack of chakra available. And Tsunade's chakra control is just as good, so what's your point? If Tsunade who has tons more chakra than Sakura does, a matter of fact, with comparable chakra control, how is it that she can be expected to perform to the same extent. Immediately after summoning Katsuyu, she orders Katsuyu to divide, and only pages later with the seal exhibiting the same appearance she's healing numerous shinobi, and it is during that time that Shizune once again clarifies that she's using her seal. Yes, Danzo had a few moments to go kamikaze, but he died almost immediately from that wound, the Sasuke example is awful because in the very next page Sasuke is on the floor unable to move, he could barely bite Karin so that she could heal him, and Konan has just the one pierce wound, and who knows how she would;ve gotten on for more than a few seconds because she dies the next page. Obviously not everyone whose displayed some level of sensing ability has been explicitly credited with it, particularly individuals who showed such abilities long after their introductions, although Tobirama's abilities have been pointed out, but the point is that we know that sensor is a type of shinobi with this ability being specifically alluded to and characterised, there hasn't been any such thing for simply sharing chakra. I can't even understand the logic you're using to justify Oro's desires, while ignoring his actual problem. And I'm not sure how that changes anything with what has been discussed from the very beginning.

    Quote Quote:
    * Quite a few actually, especially during the current arc.
    * There is hardly an "endless" list, especially one of characters disproving said claim.
    * Except the manga hasn't suggested otherwise, which has been my point. I pointed to several examples where Special Jounins preformed as well as, if not better, then a Jounin.
    * Of course, but not in the way indicating it was a cake-walk or something "beneath" a group of Jounin.
    * Are you saying that wasn't what you were implying, which was the whole reason they got quoted?
    * The pointlessness is trying to apply current standards to back then. And what they showed was equal skills, which is the point. Losing doesn't matter, Anko was actually willing and attempted to fight against Orochimaru, whereas Kakashi was scared to even try it. And Hayate was shown equally as fast as the three Jounins, which was the point. Now you claim they were shown below the skills of Jounin, so if that is the case, then feel free to actually show a Special Jounin being incapable or doing worst then a Jounin at something.
    * But it's not really the same as with Kankuro, who hides his body and has his puppet pretend to be him.
    * You can't catch them both when one is inside the other, which is how the whole Bijuu thing came up.
    * It's also obviously not the case where every single Jounin would be capable of landing a fatal blow instantly, which is kind of important to the argument. And you generalized that the few listed Jounins being possibly capable of fighting them meant every Jounin would be capable of the same, which can't be proven.
    Quite a few, really? As it stands I've seen more people throwing around Sharingans and Hashirama's cells than individuals that have been qualified as barrier experts. Would you like me to list the individuals they wouldn't have been capable of handling, let's not forget that these two along with the third of their guard and Dodai were unable to bring down a Mu at half-power and without his actual techniques, anyone that could imagine being considered top-tier would've taken them. No, you tried to point to Special Jounin that performed as well and showed nothing of the sort; Anko being reckless isn't an indicator of strength, particularly since Oro toyed with her, and Hayate stopped a genin and arrived at the same time as three Jounin, who were coming from different distances and didn't seem to be in a race. What I'm saying is quoting is meant for something I said, not what you think I might have implied. I've already pointed out that what we've seen from the Konoha Jounin far outstrips what we've seen from Konoha Special Jounin, that's obvious, the difference in rank is supported by that. If you're going to argue that individuals of two different ranks are of comparable ability, it's your job to back it up. You haven't shown any such thing. And even if they fought individuals near or comparable to Jounin-level it wouldn't make a difference to the point, because they outnumbered those individuals when they were already low on chakra, something you seem to have forgotten. It's not exactly the same, but comparable, they are different individuals with different ability levels, and honestly, neither Chiyo or Sasori would need to switch with puppets to take down Sakon, so this seems pretty meaningless. Ukon is poking out, pretty much constantly, there isn't any reason to believe he couldn't be caught in a genjutsu. They don't need to land a blow instantly. And that's not what I argued, I pointed out specific Jounin to tie in to my argument. You generalised about Sakon being 'better than Jounin', something that seems absolutely wrong regardless of how you take it. I pointed out the Jounin from Konoha that we'd seen at that point. I don't see the point in going through every Jounin the manga has shown, that would be a waste of time, and saying that I can't prove that every Jounin could defeat Sakon is just an asinine comment. I can't prove that every Jounin could defeat Part 1 Ino, that wouldn't somehow make the statement that Ino is 'better than Jounin' valid. This argument is just stupid.

    Quote Quote:
    * Not really, as you have yet to show where Gaara's sand was actually called out as faster in Part Two aside from the aforementioned time with Onoki. And the tsunami of sand wasn't a Part Two moment as I showed.
    * Pretty sure the databooks were mentioned before this point. No, the databooks show that Sasuke would overwhelm Tsunade. Not only because Kabuto did the same, but also because Sasuke's max speed was specifically stated to be on par with both Haku and Gaara, who both are even faster then Tsunade.
    * Haku was holding back, which doesn't change the overall point. Both Zabuza and Kakashi acknowledged Haku was more skilled.
    * And were either about power, then you would have a point, but they weren't.
    * And since I have never argued that they would have the same strength or do more then minor damage, nothing has been shifted. The only reason Sasuke's usage of it was called out was to help show it was different from the other Katons that Madara had used, which had originally been done a while ago.
    Do you read your posts? I think if you did you'd realise how ridiculous you can sound at times, only a few posts ago you admitted that you acknowledge the difference between Part 1 and 2, why is then that you're now questioning it again? According to the databooks, they have comparable speed, so no, the databook isn't showing anything close to what you're suggesting. Gaara was faster than Tsunade, just lovely. If you'd to place Tsuade's speed into a tier, what would it be? Low-tier, lower-mid-tier, or just speed walker? And Haku being more skilled has what to do with Sasuke matching his speed at that point? Well, it's always been about power, just because you've suddenly realised that arguing that the attacks would be anywhere near the same league is a complete waste of time doesn't change that; I never once suggested Sasuke couldn't use the same katons, when I brought it up I brought it up in the context of strength of attack, thus the references to the damage caused to Tsunade; either you're decided to change your approach or you need to read more carefully.

    Quote Quote:
    * Then why bring this all up when I had already acknowledged that was all Tsunade would be capable of in this fight?
    * It shows that they would be able to pull off a plan without speaking, as they know each other so well. And also, I brought up them using that same tactic against Tsunade a while ago.
    * Well since they would have a disposal army to take the heat and attention, there would be nothing stopping them from doing so.
    * Um, it doesn't. But Sasuke being there means that there will be someone to direct Naruto and help him not make such mistakes.
    * How is it an obviously conclusion? The whole reason for running away originally was to go to a less crowded area. There would have been no reason for Kabuto to attempt to fight while on the run.
    * The needle is where it has been, since I never said differently. And what kick are you talking about?
    * It's not even close to the same argument. We're talking specifically how these techniques fared against the Sandaime Raikage and how that matches up to what we were told.
    * But the sequence doesn't confirm it, which is the issue. If it was confirmed, the Temari's attack wouldn't have been able to do anything. The very fact that the only way to get through the cloak (which tanked a Bijuu Blast I should remind you) was to employ the cloak itself shows that the defensive power was in the cloak, not his body as was claimed.
    * It's her technique in the sense that she summons Kamatari to do it, but it's Kamatari who's doing the actual damage.
    * If my scale was wrong, then Naruto wouldn't even be visible on Gamabunta's head, yet he is.
    I simply pointed out she was capable of strategic thought and doing something other than endlessly punching without hitting a target, you dragged into something else. I've always stuck to the same approach from Tsunade from the very beginning. Yes, that one they used while Zabuza was busy with Kakashi. I'm not entirely certain Sasuke is capable of that. Did I say something about Kabuto fighting back? Her using punches for the duration is consistent with the portrayal, and would seem obvious based on the circumstances. You qualified Temari's technique at the time as average, so why wouldn't they be low tier since there are so many techniqes more powerful than they are. That's what it's comparable to, Temari's tech is somehow average because one technique was stronger, despite the fact that she was better than everyone else. The manga shows what it shows. She swings her fan, she contributes a lot. Once again, your own link shows the difference, what's the point of arguing?

    Quote Quote:
    * No, since the CS was meant to be drawn upon and used.
    * From your usage of Tsunade shoving Kabuto as an example of her counterattacking.
    * And until you show where it was indicated that the charge makes the execution slow or easy to handle, I shall stick with the established idea that the charge doesn't affect it in a negative way at all.
    * Um, I pointed to the Kakashi clone touching a fake Itachi...
    * It would be enough to avoid the attack, as we have been shown.
    * How is it not anywhere near to what I'm suggesting when what I'm suggesting is exactly what has been shown in the manga? As said before, feel free to show a slower character landing a blow on a Sharingan-user. The series make the advantage clear, unless they have some trick or are faster, an enemy isn't simply gonna hit a Sharingan-user, especially straight on.
    * So you're gonna try and argue that not only will Tsunade be capable of standing there and waiting for Sasuke to come in with his attack to counterattack, but she will also be capable of avoiding Naruto's attack while she does this?
    * The point is that such limitations only apply to the first use.
    So Sasuke had control of the CS at that point, despite being unable to control, that sounds reasonable, it does. That simply showed that she reacted to an attack from behind, mid-air. Charge time is a part of the execution of the technique, it's something you see coming from a mile away, just like Naruto's rasengan. Until you show Part 1 Sasuke hitting someone who wasn't matching attacks, flying through the air, or just not moving, I'm going to say that Tsunade is capable of avoiding it. Did that Itachi not have a sharingan? It was good enough to avoid that attack under those circumstances. See above, and I've already outlined the abilities and limits of the Sharingan. Why in your scenarios does it always seem like Tsunade is just standing there? As soon as Sasuke starts to move with Chidori his trajectory becomes pretty obvious and avoidable and that leaves Naruto and his rasengan, which are obvious from a mile away, I see little reason why she wouldn't be able to avoid them. My point is that I haven't seen anywhere in the manga that that was stated or suggested.

    Quote Quote:
    * But Four-tail Naruto was a concern, as it was acknowledged by Orochimaru himself that it could potentially kill him.
    * No, I pointed out that it didn't fit with what was established, that every other time that Naruto asked for the Kyuubi's chakra, he got it right away, so him asking for it and not getting it makes no sense.
    * I have provided examples showing that Naruto doesn't have to ask to get the Kyuubi's chakra.
    * No it hasn't. I have never argued against the idea that Naruto has asked for the Kyuubi's chakra. My claim was that he didn't have to ask to get it, there isn't anything in the manga supporting the idea that the only way that Naruto would get the chakra is by asking.
    * Yeah, they do. you have attempted from the beginning to argue that not only does Naruto have to ask just to get the Kyuubi's chakra, but that him getting the Kyuubi's chakra takes more then a moment as I have claimed from the beginning.
    * You are the one who has prolonged this discussion. You claim that Naruto has to ask to get the Kyuubi's chakra, despite what has been shown and your own comment. You also have claimed that any attempts at getting the Kyuubi's chakra would take time, despite every example but ONE showing differently.
    * Feel free to show more clones being weaker then a few clones then.
    * Which, as pointed out, can be taken several ways.
    * But the usage of a technique only applies to chakra usage and I already acknowledged that factor beforehand.
    * And as I have said, he was getting empowered by the Cursed Seal.
    * You claimed that I implied that a thousand clones would be using Rasengan, which was never implied in any way.
    Yes, four-tail Naruto, which is far beyond the Naruto at that point. Which is relevant how, have I said he wasn't going to get the chakra, once again, not what I said. I've always pointed to the delay before he gets control of the chakra. Only one example supports what I've said, as far as I know you've brought up v Neji, v Gaara, and his original summoning. Despite your original claims, against Neji it was anything, but instantaneous, he had a whole chapter to summon Gama the first time, and against Gaara he had to once again ask and wait for the chakra, despite already having used it earlier. So no, you're attempting to reframe or mischaracterise the discussion just because the examples you yourself put forward only served to further my point. You want me to show you a fundamental characteristic of shadow clones? And I've chosen to take it in a reasonable way. And I've said he was in far better condition that his teammate. You threw out the thousand clones, I didn't, I simply addressed it.

    Quote Quote:
    * The clones are their own individuals.
    * As said, not that massively wide. Naruto was able to jump across without a problem.
    * Her raiton requires a touch, which puts in with the same group as her taijutsu, and the others have already been acknowledged.
    * How? It requires physical touch, meaning that if she is close enough to touch, she would probably be punching to actually achieve something. And it doesn't seem like it does any damage, so it's not as if it would be an easy way around the clones. Exactly what options does it give her?
    * Except it wasn't "far", because as mentioned, Sasuke was already well ahead of his rank.
    If you say so. Shinobi can jump pretty far, and he jumped over one part of the VotE. Does that change that it's an ability available to her, and since you're running with this limited number of punches, she could just use that instead, it would be just as effective. Considering that we've seen what they'e capable of when they get serious, I'd say far below their level.

    Quote Quote:
    * It was assumed because before the current arc show differently, her healing was made out to be that way.
    * Aside from the fact that I have made it clear in several threads that I don't considered Minato as fast as people have made out outside of Hiraishin, I'm quite sure it's clear what the different is here - the Sharingan's prediction, a mass of clones, and their CS2/Cloak. I have gone in great detail about how thanks to his speed and Sharingan, Sasuke would be able to predict any action that Tsunade attempted and prepare for it, and how thanks to his clones, Naruto doesn't need to get close to attack Tsunade with the Rasengan. I also spoke about how Naruto's cloak form grants him the means to block and attack from a distances, with enough force to rip through solid stone. All Minato had going for him offensively was a kunai or Rasengan.
    * Except that they don't, because by the very nature of her own techniques, she'll get worn out even if they choose not to go in close for the attack. Not to mention that Sasuke has range tactics, and Naruto gains ranged abilities upon going One-tail, as was mentioned in the very beginning. They have FAR more options then Minato had.
    Made out to whom? Who honestly though that Tsunade could literally heal from anything. Her healing feats since then have been even more impressive, so I don't get how on earth that line of thought makes sense. Does that somehow change the speed aspect of the argument? I agree with your characterisation of Minato, but there shouldn't ne any doubt that Minato is significantly faster than these two at this point. She's capable of hitting Minato, but not Part 1 Naruto and Sasuke? And once again, I referenced speed feats and abilities on the part of Tsunade that you used to support that argument, but apparently they aren't good enough to justify a hit against these two in close-quarters. No, she won't. Sasuke's long-range attacks aren't even close to being a threat to Tsunade, Naruto's are a bit better, but at the point he goes one-tail, he closes out a lot of other options, and Tsunade is capable of handling it.

  3. #258
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    According to one of your points he was pretty worn down even before then, and that's not what Kabuto's comments and actions suggest. Multiple posts, but to rehash, Kabuto has less chakra and his condition was far more severe and he was unable to perform something that would seem integral to his survival because of the lack of chakra available. And Tsunade's chakra control is just as good, so what's your point? If Tsunade who has tons more chakra than Sakura does, a matter of fact, with comparable chakra control, how is it that she can be expected to perform to the same extent. Immediately after summoning Katsuyu, she orders Katsuyu to divide, and only pages later with the seal exhibiting the same appearance she's healing numerous shinobi, and it is during that time that Shizune once again clarifies that she's using her seal. Yes, Danzo had a few moments to go kamikaze, but he died almost immediately from that wound, the Sasuke example is awful because in the very next page Sasuke is on the floor unable to move, he could barely bite Karin so that she could heal him, and Konan has just the one pierce wound, and who knows how she would;ve gotten on for more than a few seconds because she dies the next page. Obviously not everyone whose displayed some level of sensing ability has been explicitly credited with it, particularly individuals who showed such abilities long after their introductions, although Tobirama's abilities have been pointed out, but the point is that we know that sensor is a type of shinobi with this ability being specifically alluded to and characterised, there hasn't been any such thing for simply sharing chakra. I can't even understand the logic you're using to justify Oro's desires, while ignoring his actual problem. And I'm not sure how that changes anything with what has been discussed from the very beginning.
    * I never said he was pretty worn down, and we were literally shown that he was fully aware of how to instantly shut Tsunade down. There wasn't anything barring him from employing that method except his own desire.
    * They were both shown low on chakra, his condition didn't prevent him from employing any techniques, and he was unable because it was costly.
    * The point is that even with her prefect chakra control allowing her to make the most of it, she still could only employ them a handful of the time. It would be pretty much the same with Tsunade, with the only difference being that she'll have a few more punches or healing available, something we have seen first-hand.
    * Um, that's not what Shizune said. As said before, the context is clearly about her gaining the seal, not actually using it, since Sakura using it would have it appear like Tsunade's seal.
    * So? How does any of that change the point here, that outside of Byakugo, Tsunade is not a tank? Did Tsunade not imminently heal herself of those "fatal" wounds right after? Also, Konan didn't die the next page and Sasuke was capable of moving, he did so to help Suigetsu the moment after.
    * Except there was, from the Kyuubi about Naruto and Minato.
    * You claimed that Orochimaru didn't showcase this ability to give his chakra to others before because he didn't want to be dependent on others, and I pointed out that he was already depending on others so there wasn't any reason why he shouldn't have shown this ability and gone to grab Sasuke himself. Orochimaru's problem was that he was incapable of fighting, so claiming that he still could have fought via a proxy doesn't make any sense with what was shown. And the point was there was no other mention or implication that Orochimaru had such an ability, so it wasn't the more reasonable conclusion to that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Quite a few, really? As it stands I've seen more people throwing around Sharingans and Hashirama's cells than individuals that have been qualified as barrier experts. Would you like me to list the individuals they wouldn't have been capable of handling, let's not forget that these two along with the third of their guard and Dodai were unable to bring down a Mu at half-power and without his actual techniques, anyone that could imagine being considered top-tier would've taken them. No, you tried to point to Special Jounin that performed as well and showed nothing of the sort; Anko being reckless isn't an indicator of strength, particularly since Oro toyed with her, and Hayate stopped a genin and arrived at the same time as three Jounin, who were coming from different distances and didn't seem to be in a race. What I'm saying is quoting is meant for something I said, not what you think I might have implied. I've already pointed out that what we've seen from the Konoha Jounin far outstrips what we've seen from Konoha Special Jounin, that's obvious, the difference in rank is supported by that. If you're going to argue that individuals of two different ranks are of comparable ability, it's your job to back it up. You haven't shown any such thing. And even if they fought individuals near or comparable to Jounin-level it wouldn't make a difference to the point, because they outnumbered those individuals when they were already low on chakra, something you seem to have forgotten. It's not exactly the same, but comparable, they are different individuals with different ability levels, and honestly, neither Chiyo or Sasori would need to switch with puppets to take down Sakon, so this seems pretty meaningless. Ukon is poking out, pretty much constantly, there isn't any reason to believe he couldn't be caught in a genjutsu. They don't need to land a blow instantly. And that's not what I argued, I pointed out specific Jounin to tie in to my argument. You generalised about Sakon being 'better than Jounin', something that seems absolutely wrong regardless of how you take it. I pointed out the Jounin from Konoha that we'd seen at that point. I don't see the point in going through every Jounin the manga has shown, that would be a waste of time, and saying that I can't prove that every Jounin could defeat Sakon is just an asinine comment. I can't prove that every Jounin could defeat Part 1 Ino, that wouldn't somehow make the statement that Ino is 'better than Jounin' valid. This argument is just stupid.
    * We have had the four Hokages, the group of ninjas that were tasked with keeping Naruto and Kirabi on the Island Turtle, and Choza and his group who used the exact same barrier as the Sound Four.
    * Go ahead. And flawed logic. Claiming that anyone considered top-tier could take him doesn't change anything given that the only Jounins considered top-tier are Kakashi and Gai.
    * Anko being able to fight against Orochimaru is an indicator of strength when we have Kakashi establishing the very idea of even trying as impossible. And Hayate being as fast as three Jounin goes right to the point about them having similar skills. You said they couldn't do what Jounins do and I showed differently.
    * So again, are you saying that wasn't what you were implying?
    * You claimed that and have yet to back it up with actual proof. I'm more then happy to see this evidence showing that Special Jounins are incapable of doing as well as a Jounin in situations. I have showed, along with your link, that they were considered comparable. Heck, it was a Special Jounin who was tasked with bring in Kabuto.
    * I haven't forgotten anything. Any opponent Sakon took on would be outnumbered, thanks to Ukon. And I acknowledged the low chakra when you gave the link of it.
    * Seeing as I acknowledged them being comparable, we're right back to the beginning here.
    * Occasionally, and how, given the way genjutsu works, would he be caught?
    * Yeah, they would need to do so instantly, otherwise one of the two would merge with them and that would be it.
    * You argued that he wasn't better then any Jounin, that any of them could defeat him. That's not limiting it merely to the select few you picked to explain, that's talking about all of them, making that a generalization. It's not an asinine comment, especially when you can't even prove it for some of the Jounin you did talk about. The difference here is that we're talking about a character who has been attributed to being a threat to such a rank, thereby making such argument valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Do you read your posts? I think if you did you'd realise how ridiculous you can sound at times, only a few posts ago you admitted that you acknowledge the difference between Part 1 and 2, why is then that you're now questioning it again? According to the databooks, they have comparable speed, so no, the databook isn't showing anything close to what you're suggesting. Gaara was faster than Tsunade, just lovely. If you'd to place Tsuade's speed into a tier, what would it be? Low-tier, lower-mid-tier, or just speed walker? And Haku being more skilled has what to do with Sasuke matching his speed at that point? Well, it's always been about power, just because you've suddenly realised that arguing that the attacks would be anywhere near the same league is a complete waste of time doesn't change that; I never once suggested Sasuke couldn't use the same katons, when I brought it up I brought it up in the context of strength of attack, thus the references to the damage caused to Tsunade; either you're decided to change your approach or you need to read more carefully.
    * Um, there is a difference between Part One and Part Two of the manga. But we're talking about a specific thing, and you have argued as if it is an established fact, so I would like to see where it was established.
    * Except the databook doesn't. Not only do we have that with Kabuto overwhelming Tsunade despite the same speed, and the manga telling us that Sasuke's max speed is equal to Lee's and thus higher then Tsunade's, but we have such examples like Sasuke vs Deidara to show that even with equal speed his opponent would still be overwhelmed.
    * Meant Lee, not Gaara.
    * Haku's speed was equal to Zabuza and Kakashi.
    * Neither their comment or Madara's usage has anything to do with power, which was the whole point.
    * And I have been pointing out that simply because Madara used it doesn't place it on the same level as his other Katons. Trying to act as if every technique someone uses would be one the same level makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I simply pointed out she was capable of strategic thought and doing something other than endlessly punching without hitting a target, you dragged into something else. I've always stuck to the same approach from Tsunade from the very beginning. Yes, that one they used while Zabuza was busy with Kakashi. I'm not entirely certain Sasuke is capable of that. Did I say something about Kabuto fighting back? Her using punches for the duration is consistent with the portrayal, and would seem obvious based on the circumstances. You qualified Temari's technique at the time as average, so why wouldn't they be low tier since there are so many techniqes more powerful than they are. That's what it's comparable to, Temari's tech is somehow average because one technique was stronger, despite the fact that she was better than everyone else. The manga shows what it shows. She swings her fan, she contributes a lot. Once again, your own link shows the difference, what's the point of arguing?
    * Something else? You did say that and I asked where was that shown. You then brought up her following the tactics of the other Gokages, and I pointed out that she wasn't initiating anything, only following the tactics of others, so they weren't proving a thing. The point remains there isn't any example of Tsunade being strategic on her own or having tactics beyond rushing in and punching.
    * They did it right under the nose of a clone, with the real Zabuza alert to them too.
    * There is no reason Sasuke wouldn't be capable of that, especially when we have the Zabuza and Gaara examples showing the way they work together.
    * You argued there was more going on between where they were and where they ended up, which would only be the case if Kabuto attempted to fight back before they got to the final spot. Unless you truly are claiming that Tsunade would throw around punches even when her opponent isn't anywhere near her, in which case that's a boon for the boys here.
    * Average compared to Naruto's FRS, which I have mentioned several times. The FRS, which I shouldn't need to remind you, being the pinnacle of shape and wind nature. Both of them hit the Sandaime Raikage, but only Temari's technique did damage, despite the FRS being the better technique.
    * She swings her fan to summon Kamatari, not doing any damage. It was only after Kamatari is summoned and goes off, without Temari swinging her fan again, that the damage is done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So Sasuke had control of the CS at that point, despite being unable to control, that sounds reasonable, it does. That simply showed that she reacted to an attack from behind, mid-air. Charge time is a part of the execution of the technique, it's something you see coming from a mile away, just like Naruto's rasengan. Until you show Part 1 Sasuke hitting someone who wasn't matching attacks, flying through the air, or just not moving, I'm going to say that Tsunade is capable of avoiding it. Did that Itachi not have a sharingan? It was good enough to avoid that attack under those circumstances. See above, and I've already outlined the abilities and limits of the Sharingan. Why in your scenarios does it always seem like Tsunade is just standing there? As soon as Sasuke starts to move with Chidori his trajectory becomes pretty obvious and avoidable and that leaves Naruto and his rasengan, which are obvious from a mile away, I see little reason why she wouldn't be able to avoid them. My point is that I haven't seen anywhere in the manga that that was stated or suggested.
    * Sasuke could call upon and use it as he wanted. Resisting was a different story, because it was specifically created to not be resisted. We were literally told that several times.
    * So you weren't using that as an example to show Tsunade could hit someone after being hit? Then we're still back to the original point of Tsunade never displaying the ability to hit someone upon being hit herself.
    * Are you seriously? What kind of logic is that, especially coming from from you? By that same token, I can easily argue that given not once in the series was Tsunade's punches show doing any actual damage to a living person, nor has she ever been able to hit someone who actually tried to avoid it. Using your logic, there's no reason to believe that she would be capable of hitting, much less actually hurting either of the boys.
    * Also, there would be no avoiding Sasuke's attack because he would be following her movements with the Sharingan and therefore would be hitting where she will be, not where she was.
    * Was Itachi actually trying to fight? He lost on purpose.
    * And said outline has been disproven by the manga. The manga outright shows that the Sharingan allows the user to see ahead several moves.
    * Um, you were the one arguing that Tsunade would stand there and tank the attack, and then hit Sasuke afterward.
    * We see that with CS1, which I mentioned before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, four-tail Naruto, which is far beyond the Naruto at that point. Which is relevant how, have I said he wasn't going to get the chakra, once again, not what I said. I've always pointed to the delay before he gets control of the chakra. Only one example supports what I've said, as far as I know you've brought up v Neji, v Gaara, and his original summoning. Despite your original claims, against Neji it was anything, but instantaneous, he had a whole chapter to summon Gama the first time, and against Gaara he had to once again ask and wait for the chakra, despite already having used it earlier. So no, you're attempting to reframe or mischaracterise the discussion just because the examples you yourself put forward only served to further my point. You want me to show you a fundamental characteristic of shadow clones? And I've chosen to take it in a reasonable way. And I've said he was in far better condition that his teammate. You threw out the thousand clones, I didn't, I simply addressed it.
    * You're the one who brought up the Four-tail Naruto.
    * You claimed he wouldn't get the chakra when he wanted it.
    * And I have pointed out there in all but one case, there was no delay longer then a moment, which has been my original timeframe.
    * I have already pointed out the issues with the Neji example, issues that were never even addressed. As for Gamabunta, it wasn't an "whole" chapter, he literally got the chakra right after he had asked for it, with it available the very next page. Same with the Gaara example, right after it was asked for, he had it the very same page. You're the one mischaracterizing what has been shown.
    * Sure, show me where in the manga it was shown that the more clones used the weaker they all are. The number of clones made do not affect their overall strength.
    * But it's not reasonable, especially when we actually have later example of Sakura actually employing her seal and it changing appearance just like Tsunade's seal.
    * But he's not, he's simply being empowered by the Cursed Seal, which starves off the condition until he loses it later on.
    * You addressed it by implying I made the claim about a thousand clones with Rasengan, despite my comment being quite clear on the number of clones that would and could use the Rasengan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If you say so. Shinobi can jump pretty far, and he jumped over one part of the VotE. Does that change that it's an ability available to her, and since you're running with this limited number of punches, she could just use that instead, it would be just as effective. Considering that we've seen what they'e capable of when they get serious, I'd say far below their level.
    * The series has shown so.
    * Naruto was on the other side, on the statue. There aren't any other parts to VotE.
    * How would it be effective? As I asked before, exactly what other options does it give her that would be viable here?
    * Except it didn't, by Part One standards. What was shown there that was so much more beyond what was shown against Sasuke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Made out to whom? Who honestly though that Tsunade could literally heal from anything. Her healing feats since then have been even more impressive, so I don't get how on earth that line of thought makes sense. Does that somehow change the speed aspect of the argument? I agree with your characterisation of Minato, but there shouldn't ne any doubt that Minato is significantly faster than these two at this point. She's capable of hitting Minato, but not Part 1 Naruto and Sasuke? And once again, I referenced speed feats and abilities on the part of Tsunade that you used to support that argument, but apparently they aren't good enough to justify a hit against these two in close-quarters. No, she won't. Sasuke's long-range attacks aren't even close to being a threat to Tsunade, Naruto's are a bit better, but at the point he goes one-tail, he closes out a lot of other options, and Tsunade is capable of handling it.
    * By pretty much everyone. Just read the former threads about her. Since her seal supposedly gave her regeneration of organs the first time we were introduced to it, that was expanded upon since no limit was ever mentioned. That all changed when we were shown her sliced in half and needing another healer to heal, which disproved the idea that she could regenerate everything.
    * Yes, because Minato has no speed feats outside of Hiraishin. There is nothing to support the idea that his speed is above average, whereas both Sasuke and Naruto's speed were above average in the end back then. Heck, Obito was able to keep up with him and Obito's physically slower then Kakashi and Gai.
    * And once again, I point out that my defense of the boys have been Sasuke avoids being hit using his Sharingan, which as the manga has shown would give him forewarning against her attacks, and Naruto avoids being hit by spamming clones, so she would be incapable of finding and hitting the real one. I also point out that as mentioned, that was before Minato displayed that he could use clones, which would change the argument. Really, you speak as if I ever claimed that they would engage in close combat on their own and not be hit (notwithstanding your current reasoning about what only the manga has shown).
    * All Sasuke's attacks have to do is injure her and force her to heal, and they can do that. And what options does Naruto "close out" by going One-tail? If anything, he gains a bunch of options that he normally lacks, like long-range and defensive abilities. And there's no way that Tsunade would be able to handle One-tail Naruto, especially with the way he fights.

  4. #259
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    I was certain I already responded to this, but apparently not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    * I never said he was pretty worn down, and we were literally shown that he was fully aware of how to instantly shut Tsunade down. There wasn't anything barring him from employing that method except his own desire.
    * They were both shown low on chakra, his condition didn't prevent him from employing any techniques, and he was unable because it was costly.
    * The point is that even with her prefect chakra control allowing her to make the most of it, she still could only employ them a handful of the time. It would be pretty much the same with Tsunade, with the only difference being that she'll have a few more punches or healing available, something we have seen first-hand.
    * Um, that's not what Shizune said. As said before, the context is clearly about her gaining the seal, not actually using it, since Sakura using it would have it appear like Tsunade's seal.
    * So? How does any of that change the point here, that outside of Byakugo, Tsunade is not a tank? Did Tsunade not imminently heal herself of those "fatal" wounds right after? Also, Konan didn't die the next page and Sasuke was capable of moving, he did so to help Suigetsu the moment after.
    * Except there was, from the Kyuubi about Naruto and Minato.
    * You claimed that Orochimaru didn't showcase this ability to give his chakra to others before because he didn't want to be dependent on others, and I pointed out that he was already depending on others so there wasn't any reason why he shouldn't have shown this ability and gone to grab Sasuke himself. Orochimaru's problem was that he was incapable of fighting, so claiming that he still could have fought via a proxy doesn't make any sense with what was shown. And the point was there was no other mention or implication that Orochimaru had such an ability, so it wasn't the more reasonable conclusion to that situation.
    You said he was just as tired as she was. And low is relative; Hashiram being 'low' on chakra is a far cry from Iruka being 'low' on chakra, and Kabuto didn't have enough chakra to carry along his healing. But, you've portrayed the limits of Tsunade's abilities as inferior to some of Sakura's showings, that obviously doesn't make sense. Is there another suggestion that we take from Shizune's comment on the activation of the seal, and seeing as what you show is different from what we've seen previously from Tsunade's seal, obviously it isn't so limited. And you seem to have avoided the part where Sakura is healing numerous shinobi through remote healing, according to you, without her seal. It's impossible to reasonably argue both that healing is very costly and Sakura wasn't using her seal during those moments. At least one of these things is going to have to give if you wish to keep arguing for the other. I'd say she's handled more without her seal than most have, and with it she's just way beyond others; my bad Konan died two pages later, and Sasuke manages to put a hand up before he's dragged away by Karin. Kurama only commented that he was impressed that Naruto was capable of that to such an extent beyond both Minato and Kushina, it was never specified as a specific ability or skillset like sensing. That's not what I said, I'm absolutely certain you didn't read any such thing from me. And Oro obviously wasn't incapable of fighting, he managed to hold off Jiraiya, a weakened Jiraiya, but even weakened Jiraiya was better than the vast majority of shinobi.

    Quote Quote:
    * We have had the four Hokages, the group of ninjas that were tasked with keeping Naruto and Kirabi on the Island Turtle, and Choza and his group who used the exact same barrier as the Sound Four.
    * Go ahead. And flawed logic. Claiming that anyone considered top-tier could take him doesn't change anything given that the only Jounins considered top-tier are Kakashi and Gai.
    * Anko being able to fight against Orochimaru is an indicator of strength when we have Kakashi establishing the very idea of even trying as impossible. And Hayate being as fast as three Jounin goes right to the point about them having similar skills. You said they couldn't do what Jounins do and I showed differently.
    * So again, are you saying that wasn't what you were implying?
    * You claimed that and have yet to back it up with actual proof. I'm more then happy to see this evidence showing that Special Jounins are incapable of doing as well as a Jounin in situations. I have showed, along with your link, that they were considered comparable. Heck, it was a Special Jounin who was tasked with bring in Kabuto.
    * I haven't forgotten anything. Any opponent Sakon took on would be outnumbered, thanks to Ukon. And I acknowledged the low chakra when you gave the link of it.
    * Seeing as I acknowledged them being comparable, we're right back to the beginning here.
    * Occasionally, and how, given the way genjutsu works, would he be caught?
    * Yeah, they would need to do so instantly, otherwise one of the two would merge with them and that would be it.
    * You argued that he wasn't better then any Jounin, that any of them could defeat him. That's not limiting it merely to the select few you picked to explain, that's talking about all of them, making that a generalization. It's not an asinine comment, especially when you can't even prove it for some of the Jounin you did talk about. The difference here is that we're talking about a character who has been attributed to being a threat to such a rank, thereby making such argument valid.
    It's likely that amongst those tasked with guarding the jins were barrier experts, the Hokages are Hokages, and we saw one other barrier. Although, I should point out that with the exception of the first group, the others might not consider themselves barrier experts, simply by being able to construct one. And by my count that's still less than the Sharingan + Hashirama cells group. Orochimaru, Kisame, Itachi, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, Nagato, Deidara, Sasori, Oonoki, Mei, A, Darui, Tobi, Bee, Yugito, Roshi, Mifune, Kitsuchi, Ao, Kimimaro, Gaara, these are just the ones I can think up off the top of my head that were alive at the time and weren't from Konoha. Once again, Anko taking on someone way out of her league doesn't indicate her ability, quite frankly, it seems like a criticism of her thought process. Hayate showed that he was as fast as three Jounin when, that's not what he showed there. No, it wasn't. You haven't shown any such thing, you've shown Anko being Oro's plaything and Hayate stopping a genin. And if you acknowledge that they were low on chakra and accept that they were outnumbered even beyond the Ukon-Sakon dynamic, how is that evidence that he's better than Jounin. It shows that he's capable of defeating Special Jounin when they're in sub-par condition and he has backup beyond just his brother. He'd be caught by genjutsu the same way his brother would, I don't get your point whatsoever. They'd be capable of such a thing. And it doesn't change that they require some contact, if someone uses something other than taijutsu then their ability is completely useless. Could you show me where I said that? And I've already outlined manners in which they'd be capable of defeating them. And quite frankly, you brought up this claim of Sakon being better than Jounin, yet you haven't given any evidence that actually gives him that due.


    Quote Quote:
    * Um, there is a difference between Part One and Part Two of the manga. But we're talking about a specific thing, and you have argued as if it is an established fact, so I would like to see where it was established.
    * Except the databook doesn't. Not only do we have that with Kabuto overwhelming Tsunade despite the same speed, and the manga telling us that Sasuke's max speed is equal to Lee's and thus higher then Tsunade's, but we have such examples like Sasuke vs Deidara to show that even with equal speed his opponent would still be overwhelmed.
    * Meant Lee, not Gaara.
    * Haku's speed was equal to Zabuza and Kakashi.
    * Neither their comment or Madara's usage has anything to do with power, which was the whole point.
    * And I have been pointing out that simply because Madara used it doesn't place it on the same level as his other Katons. Trying to act as if every technique someone uses would be one the same level makes no sense.
    Your acknowledgement was in the context of Gaara's sand obviously, it's right there. Gaara's sand's speed feats against opponents like Madara and the 2nd Mizukage show without a doubt that his sand got faster. Kabuto didn't overwhelm Tsunade with speed, first off. Secondly, that Tsunade was exhausted, this we've already established. Thirdly, Deidara wasn't overwhelmed by Sasuke's speed, that stuff is just wrong. When we saw Haku, his speed in battle without mirrors wasn't equal to Kakashi's or Zabuza's. Power was the only thing ever addressed, not once did I mention Sasuke not being able to use the katon. And as I've said, even if each of his attacks aren't the same level, his attacks were way beyond Sasuke's power.

    Quote Quote:
    * Something else? You did say that and I asked where was that shown. You then brought up her following the tactics of the other Gokages, and I pointed out that she wasn't initiating anything, only following the tactics of others, so they weren't proving a thing. The point remains there isn't any example of Tsunade being strategic on her own or having tactics beyond rushing in and punching.
    * They did it right under the nose of a clone, with the real Zabuza alert to them too.
    * There is no reason Sasuke wouldn't be capable of that, especially when we have the Zabuza and Gaara examples showing the way they work together.
    * You argued there was more going on between where they were and where they ended up, which would only be the case if Kabuto attempted to fight back before they got to the final spot. Unless you truly are claiming that Tsunade would throw around punches even when her opponent isn't anywhere near her, in which case that's a boon for the boys here.
    * Average compared to Naruto's FRS, which I have mentioned several times. The FRS, which I shouldn't need to remind you, being the pinnacle of shape and wind nature. Both of them hit the Sandaime Raikage, but only Temari's technique did damage, despite the FRS being the better technique.
    * She swings her fan to summon Kamatari, not doing any damage. It was only after Kamatari is summoned and goes off, without Temari swinging her fan again, that the damage is done.
    Yes, and considering that they didn't have some secret means to communicate or some planned course of action, she was responsible for her own actions; her tactics. Which changes what I said? Working together in pinches doesn't mean that Sasuke is effective at keeping Naruto in line. I get the Zabuza mention, but I'm not sure what you're referencing with Gaara. Why would that only be the case, Kabuto could've just kept on evading, and Tsunade could've kept on attacking. Saying that something is average compared to just one other things seems like an ineffective way of putting something in context. FRS is average compared to bijuudama, that seems like something pretty useless to say, it doesn't change that getting hit by FRS is pretty much fatal for everyone bar one or two individuals. Once again, saying that Temari's attack did damage isn't exactly an argument for its weakness. Nope, she blows Kamatari along with the wind from her fan.

    Quote Quote:
    * Sasuke could call upon and use it as he wanted. Resisting was a different story, because it was specifically created to not be resisted. We were literally told that several times.
    * So you weren't using that as an example to show Tsunade could hit someone after being hit? Then we're still back to the original point of Tsunade never displaying the ability to hit someone upon being hit herself.
    * Are you seriously? What kind of logic is that, especially coming from from you? By that same token, I can easily argue that given not once in the series was Tsunade's punches show doing any actual damage to a living person, nor has she ever been able to hit someone who actually tried to avoid it. Using your logic, there's no reason to believe that she would be capable of hitting, much less actually hurting either of the boys.
    * Also, there would be no avoiding Sasuke's attack because he would be following her movements with the Sharingan and therefore would be hitting where she will be, not where she was.
    * Was Itachi actually trying to fight? He lost on purpose.
    * And said outline has been disproven by the manga. The manga outright shows that the Sharingan allows the user to see ahead several moves.
    * Um, you were the one arguing that Tsunade would stand there and tank the attack, and then hit Sasuke afterward.
    * We see that with CS1, which I mentioned before.
    Yes, I know. However, you claimed that after its first use, Sasuke had complete control, what I showed you was that it wasn't nearly so simple, a lot happened in between. Yes, I was, but the power or effectiveness of the attacks wasn't something I was pointing, it was merely her reactions. I don't see what's flawed about it, I pointed out that Sasuke has only hit easy targets, and considering Tsunade's abilities she should be capable of avoiding such an attack. It's no different than saying Sasuke is capable of avoiding her attacks. I'm not saying that under no circumstances would he be able to hit Tsunade, I'm simply saying that she has the tools available to avoid it. And for the record, Tsunade has damaged living individuals, and to be fair, I don't imagine that they wanted to be hit. And again with the Sharingan, gave you another example, just because you don't like them doesn't mean that they don't exist. My outline has been disproves, really? Several moves? Ok. I said that's a possible way to handle their attacks. I was just answering your claim that she wouldn't be capable of avoiding their dual attack, that obviously wasn't the case. And once again, even if we saw it with CS1, which I continue to dispute, we're talking about CS2.

    Quote Quote:
    * You're the one who brought up the Four-tail Naruto.
    * You claimed he wouldn't get the chakra when he wanted it.
    * And I have pointed out there in all but one case, there was no delay longer then a moment, which has been my original timeframe.
    * I have already pointed out the issues with the Neji example, issues that were never even addressed. As for Gamabunta, it wasn't an "whole" chapter, he literally got the chakra right after he had asked for it, with it available the very next page. Same with the Gaara example, right after it was asked for, he had it the very same page. You're the one mischaracterizing what has been shown.
    * Sure, show me where in the manga it was shown that the more clones used the weaker they all are. The number of clones made do not affect their overall strength.
    * But it's not reasonable, especially when we actually have later example of Sakura actually employing her seal and it changing appearance just like Tsunade's seal.
    * But he's not, he's simply being empowered by the Cursed Seal, which starves off the condition until he loses it later on.
    * You addressed it by implying I made the claim about a thousand clones with Rasengan, despite my comment being quite clear on the number of clones that would and could use the Rasengan.
    Yes, and I made my point with Four-tail Naruto. That's what I said. Could you show me where I said that, please? Issues with the Neji example, you mean it didn't fit your claim. I'm pretty sure you haven't shown anything that is contrary to my claims about Gama example, I mean repeating the example doesn't change that, I mean you even link to the request after which Kurama decides to comment before giving him chakra. And the redo of the Gaara example changes what about what I've already said about it. As for the clones, Sarutobi v Oro should make it clear, and the explanations of the technique itself. I've already addressed the Sakura seal above. And that condition is? I responded to the numbers you put forward, nowhere did I misconstrue that.

    Quote Quote:
    * The series has shown so.
    * Naruto was on the other side, on the statue. There aren't any other parts to VotE.
    * How would it be effective? As I asked before, exactly what other options does it give her that would be viable here?
    * Except it didn't, by Part One standards. What was shown there that was so much more beyond what was shown against Sasuke?
    The series has shown that the VotE is pretty spacious. And the water would seem to count, that would be where the valley is. It might be less costly, since you're claiming that her punches require a lot of chakra. Kakashi showed far more against Zabuza in Part One than he did against Sasuke, Oro showed more, even without his arms, than he did against Sasuke.

    Quote Quote:
    * By pretty much everyone. Just read the former threads about her. Since her seal supposedly gave her regeneration of organs the first time we were introduced to it, that was expanded upon since no limit was ever mentioned. That all changed when we were shown her sliced in half and needing another healer to heal, which disproved the idea that she could regenerate everything.
    * Yes, because Minato has no speed feats outside of Hiraishin. There is nothing to support the idea that his speed is above average, whereas both Sasuke and Naruto's speed were above average in the end back then. Heck, Obito was able to keep up with him and Obito's physically slower then Kakashi and Gai.
    * And once again, I point out that my defense of the boys have been Sasuke avoids being hit using his Sharingan, which as the manga has shown would give him forewarning against her attacks, and Naruto avoids being hit by spamming clones, so she would be incapable of finding and hitting the real one. I also point out that as mentioned, that was before Minato displayed that he could use clones, which would change the argument. Really, you speak as if I ever claimed that they would engage in close combat on their own and not be hit (notwithstanding your current reasoning about what only the manga has shown).
    * All Sasuke's attacks have to do is injure her and force her to heal, and they can do that. And what options does Naruto "close out" by going One-tail? If anything, he gains a bunch of options that he normally lacks, like long-range and defensive abilities. And there's no way that Tsunade would be able to handle One-tail Naruto, especially with the way he fights.
    They thought she was capable of healing from most things, not everything, that would just be silly. Quite frankly, the fact that early on in this thread some decided to go with the headshot pretty much shows that she wasn't thought to be capable of healing from everything. We know that Minato is fast even without Hiraishin. You pretty suggested that they could. And once again, you're going to avoid my points about her speed in general, and your criticisms of her feats that you yourself had utilised. No, Sasuke's attacks have to injure her and force her to heal considerably without sustaining damage of his own. He closes out the army of clones, strategic planning, and he just isn't as in control. I don't see why she wouldn't be able to handle a one-tail Naruto.

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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You said he was just as tired as she was. And low is relative; Hashiram being 'low' on chakra is a far cry from Iruka being 'low' on chakra, and Kabuto didn't have enough chakra to carry along his healing. But, you've portrayed the limits of Tsunade's abilities as inferior to some of Sakura's showings, that obviously doesn't make sense. Is there another suggestion that we take from Shizune's comment on the activation of the seal, and seeing as what you show is different from what we've seen previously from Tsunade's seal, obviously it isn't so limited. And you seem to have avoided the part where Sakura is healing numerous shinobi through remote healing, according to you, without her seal. It's impossible to reasonably argue both that healing is very costly and Sakura wasn't using her seal during those moments. At least one of these things is going to have to give if you wish to keep arguing for the other. I'd say she's handled more without her seal than most have, and with it she's just way beyond others; my bad Konan died two pages later, and Sasuke manages to put a hand up before he's dragged away by Karin. Kurama only commented that he was impressed that Naruto was capable of that to such an extent beyond both Minato and Kushina, it was never specified as a specific ability or skillset like sensing. That's not what I said, I'm absolutely certain you didn't read any such thing from me. And Oro obviously wasn't incapable of fighting, he managed to hold off Jiraiya, a weakened Jiraiya, but even weakened Jiraiya was better than the vast majority of shinobi.
    * Yeah, which is different from claiming he was pretty worn out, unless you're claiming that Tsunade was pretty worn out at that point.
    * That doesn't even make sense for this comparison, since there isn't a major difference in volume between Sasuke and Kabuto. And as pointed out numerous times now, being unable to heal is moot when we have been told several times that using healing techniques are costly.
    * Explain how I have done that please.
    * Yeah, that Shizune was talking about Sakura gaining the seal, which fits the context and what was later shown much better. And what are you talking about? That's how it has been shown when Tsunade is using it.
    * As said before, Sakura only healed a handful of times, which was shown her limit. Feel free to show differently, Sakura mass healing without the Kyuubi cloak or the seal appearing differently.
    * And as I said, outside of Byakugo, she has had to heal herself right after taking damage, which is the point. She has not shown any greater damage taking ability, she has simply been able to negate that damage straight away with her healing. Kisame pulled the same trick.
    * Konan didn't die at all until after Obito's genjutsu'd her for Nagato's location, and Sasuke did a little more then that.
    * And what would be impressive about it if it was a feat anyone was capable of. And sensing itself isn't treated that way.
    *
    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    That would mean Oro would have to rely on someone else in battle, and not only that, but he wouldn't be able to use his entire skillset unless said individual was capable of utilising every technique in his repertoire, which Kabuto wasn't. So, no, that line of argument is just asinine. He was already pretty much out of chakra prior to that, he said that before Gamabunta even appeared.
    And at that point he was, which was the whole reason he went after Sasuke so soon and had to switch to a weaker host later on. His arms were torn up and he was at the limit of losing everything. The point is that if Orochimaru could have simply used Kabuto to act for him, then he could have gone after Sasuke himself instead of having to depend upon the Sound Four to bring Sasuke to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It's likely that amongst those tasked with guarding the jins were barrier experts, the Hokages are Hokages, and we saw one other barrier. Although, I should point out that with the exception of the first group, the others might not consider themselves barrier experts, simply by being able to construct one. And by my count that's still less than the Sharingan + Hashirama cells group. Orochimaru, Kisame, Itachi, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, Nagato, Deidara, Sasori, Oonoki, Mei, A, Darui, Tobi, Bee, Yugito, Roshi, Mifune, Kitsuchi, Ao, Kimimaro, Gaara, these are just the ones I can think up off the top of my head that were alive at the time and weren't from Konoha. Once again, Anko taking on someone way out of her league doesn't indicate her ability, quite frankly, it seems like a criticism of her thought process. Hayate showed that he was as fast as three Jounin when, that's not what he showed there. No, it wasn't. You haven't shown any such thing, you've shown Anko being Oro's plaything and Hayate stopping a genin. And if you acknowledge that they were low on chakra and accept that they were outnumbered even beyond the Ukon-Sakon dynamic, how is that evidence that he's better than Jounin. It shows that he's capable of defeating Special Jounin when they're in sub-par condition and he has backup beyond just his brother. He'd be caught by genjutsu the same way his brother would, I don't get your point whatsoever. They'd be capable of such a thing. And it doesn't change that they require some contact, if someone uses something other than taijutsu then their ability is completely useless. Could you show me where I said that? And I've already outlined manners in which they'd be capable of defeating them. And quite frankly, you brought up this claim of Sakon being better than Jounin, yet you haven't given any evidence that actually gives him that due.
    * How is it less when I have given more then a dozen characters?
    * So the proof you consider showing that they are weaker then a Jounin is the potential inability to take out S-rank opponents? The only non-S-rank characters on that list are Darui, Kitsuchi, Kimimaro, and Ao. Darui I could understand, given what he has shown, and Kimimaro is the leader of the Sound Four so that supports my side more, but I'm quite interested in hearing the explanation for Kitsuchi and Ao.
    * She took on and fought nearly evenly with for some time, til he pulled out the Cursed Seal and paralyzed her. According to your logic, she shouldn't have been capable of even making a single move against him.
    * He left and arrived as fast as them in stopping Neji. How does it not show that?
    * I have shown that, and as pointed out, it was Anko who was tasked with bring Kabuto in. Now, as I said, feel free to show these supposed examples in the manga where "the Konoha Jounin far outstrips what we've seen from Konoha Special Jounin".
    * I already explained that's due to his ability, which would not be easy to counter for most. And as I have been
    * My point was, given that first to catch someone in a genjutsu one needs to affect a specific sense (like eyesight or hearing), and secondly to control their chakra flow, how would Ukon be caught by Kurenai when he's not looking in the same direction and his chakra flow would interfere with his brother's chakra flow?
    * They would be capable of acting to kill two opponents before the second opponent even revealed himself? That seems a little much. If someone used something other then taijutsu, they can defend until they got close to use said ability. It's not as if they don't have a pretty good defensive move available for ranged attacks.
    * So you're changing the argument to Sakon/Ukon would be beaten by some Jounin and not others? That works fine for me. And I did in fact give evidence: Orochimaru's belief that someone powerful must have been holding them up, and the desire by the Hokage Guard to send a team of Jounin after them. Meanwhile you haven't shown anything to support the belief that they were well below

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Your acknowledgement was in the context of Gaara's sand obviously, it's right there. Gaara's sand's speed feats against opponents like Madara and the 2nd Mizukage show without a doubt that his sand got faster. Kabuto didn't overwhelm Tsunade with speed, first off. Secondly, that Tsunade was exhausted, this we've already established. Thirdly, Deidara wasn't overwhelmed by Sasuke's speed, that stuff is just wrong. When we saw Haku, his speed in battle without mirrors wasn't equal to Kakashi's or Zabuza's. Power was the only thing ever addressed, not once did I mention Sasuke not being able to use the katon. And as I've said, even if each of his attacks aren't the same level, his attacks were way beyond Sasuke's power.
    * Yeah, I pointed out the specific situation where it was noted to have become faster and asked you to provide an example of where it's speed was noted to have changed before that point.
    * Um, against the Nidaime Mizukage, Gaara's sand didn't get faster, Jokey Boi got slower. And against Madara, Onoki lightened it, which I already pointed out.
    * First: Kabuto was capable of landing attacks and avoiding her attacks multiple times, which is what I consider overwhelming. However you look at it, he had no trouble doing so. Second: Not an excuse, as already pointed out. Tsunade got exhausted through her own actions, actions that likely would be repeated even more here. And third: Deidara outright acknowledged that Sasuke was fast several times, like here and here.
    * Haku's base speed was equal to theirs, and Kakashi spoke about Haku's skills long before that point.
    * As you seem to have missed it, I said "Neither their comment or Madara's usage has anything to do with power, which was the whole point". Never said you mentioned anything.
    * Which doesn't matter because I have never tried to claim differently. If I had, then I wouldn't be arguing against the idea that the Katon did major damage. Simply because a character uses a technique doesn't instantly put it on the same exact level as anything else they used. There are more then enough examples to show this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, and considering that they didn't have some secret means to communicate or some planned course of action, she was responsible for her own actions; her tactics. Which changes what I said? Working together in pinches doesn't mean that Sasuke is effective at keeping Naruto in line. I get the Zabuza mention, but I'm not sure what you're referencing with Gaara. Why would that only be the case, Kabuto could've just kept on evading, and Tsunade could've kept on attacking. Saying that something is average compared to just one other things seems like an ineffective way of putting something in context. FRS is average compared to bijuudama, that seems like something pretty useless to say, it doesn't change that getting hit by FRS is pretty much fatal for everyone bar one or two individuals. Once again, saying that Temari's attack did damage isn't exactly an argument for its weakness. Nope, she blows Kamatari along with the wind from her fan.
    * Which was healing or rushing forward to punch. Really, exactly what beyond those things did Tsunade do in battle. Please show me these other tactics that she has available to use here.
    * Well, because neither Zabuza was "busy". They both were playing attention.
    * It doesn't not mean that either. Point remains, that when Naruto and Sasuke team up, Naruto fights better then normal. We saw this against Zabuza and Gaara, where Naruto actually came up with clever plans and employed his clones as a distraction for the plans.
    * The only way that Tsunade could have attacked is if Kabuto was close, and that really doesn't fit with what was shown.
    * It's not when we're comparing the two with the same measuring stick, the Sandaime Raikage's durability.
    * You clearly have missed the point here. I'll try one more time. The fact that Temari's attack could do damage to the cloakless Raikage, while the stronger FRS couldn't do any damage to a cloaked Raikage shows that it was the cloak that was the source of his durability. That goes along with what was later shown, with the Hachibi's story and Naruto using the cloak to pierce itself to take down the Raikage.
    * No she doesn't. If it was Temari's wind, then there would be no point in her even summoning Kamatari.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, I know. However, you claimed that after its first use, Sasuke had complete control, what I showed you was that it wasn't nearly so simple, a lot happened in between. Yes, I was, but the power or effectiveness of the attacks wasn't something I was pointing, it was merely her reactions. I don't see what's flawed about it, I pointed out that Sasuke has only hit easy targets, and considering Tsunade's abilities she should be capable of avoiding such an attack. It's no different than saying Sasuke is capable of avoiding her attacks. I'm not saying that under no circumstances would he be able to hit Tsunade, I'm simply saying that she has the tools available to avoid it. And for the record, Tsunade has damaged living individuals, and to be fair, I don't imagine that they wanted to be hit. And again with the Sharingan, gave you another example, just because you don't like them doesn't mean that they don't exist. My outline has been disproves, really? Several moves? Ok. I said that's a possible way to handle their attacks. I was just answering your claim that she wouldn't be capable of avoiding their dual attack, that obviously wasn't the case. And once again, even if we saw it with CS1, which I continue to dispute, we're talking about CS2.
    * I said that Sasuke could use it as he wanted, that the physical effects that limited his first usage no longer limited his after that.
    * Her reactions? Noticing she was hit after said hit and being incapable of preforming any kind of real counterattack?
    * The flaw is one, your claiming a weakness that isn't there (at no point in the series has the Chidori been implied dogdable but the opposite, that it's really fast to the point of being so dangerous) and two, nothing at all showing that Tsunade's abilities would allow her to avoid it. I on the other hand have used a character with similar speed and examples of faster characters being avoided to show that Sasuke could avoid her attacks.
    * She has "damaged" characters standing around, and not once has done damage enough to actually stop someone from fighting back.
    * What? All I did was point out that in that situation, Itachi wasn't trying to avoid anything, he allowed them to win. He was shown smiling at the end. I think you need to take your own advice, because as pointed out, the series has shown multiple times that the Sharingan's prediction does exactly what I have said it would do.
    * I can and have literally show three examples of Sasuke doing just that with his Sharingan.
    * You referred to it as "my scenarios" when it was your scenario I was replying about. And she wouldn't. With the Sharingan showing Sasuke where she will be, he's not likely to miss, and the Rasengan being "obvious" doesn't mean much if Tsunade has to attempt to avoid Sasuke coming at her. Both Sasuke and Naruto can move just as Tsunade moves, and since both of their techniques can be held til released, they can follow her until they are either made to defend (in which case the other hits) or they actually hit.
    * And CS2 works pretty much like CS1. It's merely the upgraded version.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, and I made my point with Four-tail Naruto. That's what I said. Could you show me where I said that, please? Issues with the Neji example, you mean it didn't fit your claim. I'm pretty sure you haven't shown anything that is contrary to my claims about Gama example, I mean repeating the example doesn't change that, I mean you even link to the request after which Kurama decides to comment before giving him chakra. And the redo of the Gaara example changes what about what I've already said about it. As for the clones, Sarutobi v Oro should make it clear, and the explanations of the technique itself. I've already addressed the Sakura seal above. And that condition is? I responded to the numbers you put forward, nowhere did I misconstrue that.
    * So why call me out when I replied about it?
    *
    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It requires him to get some chakra from Kurama, yes. And that takes time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Circumstances. Naruto was exhausted of his own chakra, pissed off, and about to be executed. He calls on it without knowing in the most dire and emotional moments, when Kurama pretty much doesn't have much of a choice. The only time we've seen him knowingly and intentionally whip out the chakra in the midst of battle was against Neji, and that required some effort. If it's as easy as you say, why didn't he manage against Oro.
    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    We've seen other battles where he's been unable to whip it out, so why should I presume that he's a master of Kurama's chakra, and utilises it with unerring ease, at this point when it's clear that that wasn't the case.
    * No, that it doesn't fit with any of the other examples nor makes sense in any way. Why would it take so long when all the other examples have it happening right after, and why would Naruto have to make a second attempt at getting the Kyuubi's chakra after asking for it?
    * You said it took a whole chapter, when in fact it took one page for Naruto to get the chakra. And the Gaara example has the same thing, him getting the chakra in one page.
    * How? Explain it to me, because Sarutobi's clones were capable of quite a bit and took quite a bit of damage while not popping. And the mechanics of the technique would only apply to the clones ability to use ninjutsu, which isn't a factor for Naruto because he doesn't really have anything but the Rasengan.
    * Fatigue.
    *
    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Where in Part 1 have we seen Naruto make a thousand clones with Rasengans, where?
    You did, claimed that I made the claim about Naruto making a thousand clones with Rasengans, when I never even implied such. And then, when I listed exactly what I said, you told me to recheck it, as if I hadn't wrote what I said I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The series has shown that the VotE is pretty spacious. And the water would seem to count, that would be where the valley is. It might be less costly, since you're claiming that her punches require a lot of chakra. Kakashi showed far more against Zabuza in Part One than he did against Sasuke, Oro showed more, even without his arms, than he did against Sasuke.
    * Spacious, but not massively so.
    * The water is inbetween the statues, it would be included in the jump from one side to the other.
    * And since she would still have to hit them physically to take down the boys and pop the clones, she would basically be wasting more chakra then merely outright hitting them.
    * He showed the Sharingan and copied Zabuza's techniques, and later on summoning. That's two more things then against Sasuke. And the only thing Orochimaru showed after the Forest of Death was Edo Tensei and his sword. He actually used more ninjutsu and genjutsu? against Sasuke then he did against the Sannins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    They thought she was capable of healing from most things, not everything, that would just be silly. Quite frankly, the fact that early on in this thread some decided to go with the headshot pretty much shows that she wasn't thought to be capable of healing from everything. We know that Minato is fast even without Hiraishin. You pretty suggested that they could. And once again, you're going to avoid my points about her speed in general, and your criticisms of her feats that you yourself had utilised. No, Sasuke's attacks have to injure her and force her to heal considerably without sustaining damage of his own. He closes out the army of clones, strategic planning, and he just isn't as in control. I don't see why she wouldn't be able to handle a one-tail Naruto.
    * Like I said, read her former threads, it was presumed she could heal anything but maybe decapitation by a few. And the fact that there were people who argued against that idea shows otherwise.
    * No, we don't know that. His title of Yellow Flash was thanks to Hiraishin, and even his shunshin usage was actually Hiraishin. We have never seen any impressive speed feat from him outside of Hiraishin. Like I said, Minato was equal on foot to Obito and Obito's pretty slow compared to those noted for their speed.
    * No, not outside of applying their unique skills to the situation. Feel free to show where I said as such without also bring up the Sharingan/clones/Kyuubi cloak.
    * I'm not avoiding anything, I literally just explained to you the difference and why they weren't applicable here like there. I'm not sure how it's avoiding when I point out that it works against Minato because he's slower without Hiraishin then the boys...
    * Which Sasuke is perfectly capable of doing. And no, none of that is closed out. Naruto's clones can remain around even if the Kyuubi's cloak is employed, and he is still fully aware even with the one-tail cloak, so he can still plan and retain control. It's not until the higher tails that he loses those, which isn't an issue here. How can Tsunade fight one-tail Naruto when he can attack her from a long distances away, block any attack with a shield of chakra, and is strong enough to rip through solid stone? Even without the cloak itself, Kyuubi Naruto can counter any attempt Tsunade makes at getting close to him. He'll be able to take her down without her being capable of doing anything to him in turn.

  6. #261
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    * Yeah, which is different from claiming he was pretty worn out, unless you're claiming that Tsunade was pretty worn out at that point.
    * That doesn't even make sense for this comparison, since there isn't a major difference in volume between Sasuke and Kabuto. And as pointed out numerous times now, being unable to heal is moot when we have been told several times that using healing techniques are costly.
    * Explain how I have done that please.
    * Yeah, that Shizune was talking about Sakura gaining the seal, which fits the context and what was later shown much better. And what are you talking about? That's how it has been shown when Tsunade is using it.
    * As said before, Sakura only healed a handful of times, which was shown her limit. Feel free to show differently, Sakura mass healing without the Kyuubi cloak or the seal appearing differently.
    * And as I said, outside of Byakugo, she has had to heal herself right after taking damage, which is the point. She has not shown any greater damage taking ability, she has simply been able to negate that damage straight away with her healing. Kisame pulled the same trick.
    * Konan didn't die at all until after Obito's genjutsu'd her for Nagato's location, and Sasuke did a little more then that.
    * And what would be impressive about it if it was a feat anyone was capable of. And sensing itself isn't treated that way.
    * And at that point he was, which was the whole reason he went after Sasuke so soon and had to switch to a weaker host later on. His arms were torn up and he was at the limit of losing everything. The point is that if Orochimaru could have simply used Kabuto to act for him, then he could have gone after Sasuke himself instead of having to depend upon the Sound Four to bring Sasuke to him.
    Tired, worn out, seems pretty similar to me. The result is that Kabuto was in the same condition as Tsunade from just running. Sasuke at that time was suggested to have considerably more chakra available to him. You've said that, and yet we've seen others in desperate straits go through healing, and summoning a boss is even more costly. Because you've said that Tsunade's limits in terms of healing and punches is less than what we've seen from Sakura, that's how you did that. She says activated, not gained. The link you pointed to had some fourpointed symbol, while we've seen something far different the seal in the past. And once again, here and here shows Sakura after summoning Katsuyu healing multiple shinobi with remote healing. So once again, arguing both the points you've been supporting simultaneously is nonsensical. Yes, but she was able to handle more damage without healing than most, and Kisame isn't exactly going to make the point. And does that change that she was dead after the number of pages I pointed to, and Sasuke put up his hand with some lightning and then had to be dragged away in critical care. Tsunade had more injuries than Konan, and did far better than Sasuke. The scale was impressive, he even put it in context, and sensing has been treated as such, we've had individuals referred to as sensors. Does that say what you suggested I said, I'm absolutely certain it doesn't. And once again, his arms being torn up didn't stop him from using chakra or fighting, just not at the level which he would expect from himself. And why would Oro need to go for Sasuke, he has subordinates for a reason.

    Quote Quote:
    * How is it less when I have given more then a dozen characters?
    * So the proof you consider showing that they are weaker then a Jounin is the potential inability to take out S-rank opponents? The only non-S-rank characters on that list are Darui, Kitsuchi, Kimimaro, and Ao. Darui I could understand, given what he has shown, and Kimimaro is the leader of the Sound Four so that supports my side more, but I'm quite interested in hearing the explanation for Kitsuchi and Ao.
    * She took on and fought nearly evenly with for some time, til he pulled out the Cursed Seal and paralyzed her. According to your logic, she shouldn't have been capable of even making a single move against him.
    * He left and arrived as fast as them in stopping Neji. How does it not show that?
    * I have shown that, and as pointed out, it was Anko who was tasked with bring Kabuto in. Now, as I said, feel free to show these supposed examples in the manga where "the Konoha Jounin far outstrips what we've seen from Konoha Special Jounin".
    * I already explained that's due to his ability, which would not be easy to counter for most. And as I have been
    * My point was, given that first to catch someone in a genjutsu one needs to affect a specific sense (like eyesight or hearing), and secondly to control their chakra flow, how would Ukon be caught by Kurenai when he's not looking in the same direction and his chakra flow would interfere with his brother's chakra flow?
    * They would be capable of acting to kill two opponents before the second opponent even revealed himself? That seems a little much. If someone used something other then taijutsu, they can defend until they got close to use said ability. It's not as if they don't have a pretty good defensive move available for ranged attacks.
    * So you're changing the argument to Sakon/Ukon would be beaten by some Jounin and not others? That works fine for me. And I did in fact give evidence: Orochimaru's belief that someone powerful must have been holding them up, and the desire by the Hokage Guard to send a team of Jounin after them. Meanwhile you haven't shown anything to support the belief that they were well below
    I'm sure if you tried you could think of more people who've used Sharingans or Hashirama cells. No, you asked me a question about who those two would be incapable of handling, so I provided. How does Kimimaro support your argument, he isn't Sakon? Kitsuchi, the guy with Dotons that could stand up to the Gedo, that requires justification? And Ao has a Byakugan and survived Shisui, so I thought he deserved to be on the list. Oro was toying with his old protégé, seriously? And I'm not sure what logic you're attributing to me, but clearly you need to rethink it. It doesn't show that because he was coming from a different distance and it assumes that the Jounin were using their full speed, although the distance alone makes a pretty big difference. So Anko was tasked to bring Kabuto in, so what? She was an expert in things Orochimaru. Simple take the performances of the Tokubetsu Jounin, Raido, Genma, Ibiki, Ebisu, Aoba and compare it the Jounin from the same village; Kakashi, Guy, Kurenai, Asuma, and I'm obviously not including the strongest individuals of that rank because that would just skew things too much. Just a trick ability doesn't make on better than a Jounin. What about catching the two at the same time isn't translating? And is Ukon somewhere different from Sakon, he's going to take damage too if their body is hit by a fatal blow. I haven't changed my argument. I asked you to point out where I said what you claimed I said. This isn't the only time recently where you've attempted to claim I've said something and were just wrong. Something to show they were well below; the only fights we saw they couldn't finish off one genin and then lost to another one, and although the second one could be said to be better than most, Kiba wouldn't even rank in the top ten genin we've seen. Oro's statement is meaningless because we see that he was being help up by a decent genin. You're trying to portray statements as some evidence of his fighting prowess, but we've actually seen it, and it doesn't amount to what you've claimed.
    Quote Quote:
    * Yeah, I pointed out the specific situation where it was noted to have become faster and asked you to provide an example of where it's speed was noted to have changed before that point.
    * Um, against the Nidaime Mizukage, Gaara's sand didn't get faster, Jokey Boi got slower. And against Madara, Onoki lightened it, which I already pointed out.
    * First: Kabuto was capable of landing attacks and avoiding her attacks multiple times, which is what I consider overwhelming. However you look at it, he had no trouble doing so. Second: Not an excuse, as already pointed out. Tsunade got exhausted through her own actions, actions that likely would be repeated even more here. And third: Deidara outright acknowledged that Sasuke was fast several times, like here and here.
    * Haku's base speed was equal to theirs, and Kakashi spoke about Haku's skills long before that point.
    * As you seem to have missed it, I said "Neither their comment or Madara's usage has anything to do with power, which was the whole point". Never said you mentioned anything.
    * Which doesn't matter because I have never tried to claim differently. If I had, then I wouldn't be arguing against the idea that the Katon did major damage. Simply because a character uses a technique doesn't instantly put it on the same exact level as anything else they used. There are more then enough examples to show this.
    I'm pretty sure I've pointed to this before; my comment and your response to it.
    Quote Quote:
    And his sand during Part 2 has been faster than his sand during Part 1, that's pretty obvious, why this has dragged out is beyond me.
    Quote Quote:
    I acknowledged that there was a difference between Part One and Two, that was never the point. This has dragged on because you attempted to claim that Gaara's sand wasn't fast back then, despite was was shown.
    As for the examples, the speed that allowed him to compete in the first place againt the 2nd, and Oonoki wasn't always there against Madara. But of course, you;ve already acknowledged the difference. Your standard for overwhelming seems pretty low. Does that change that she was slower then she is in peak condition? And I was unaware that acknowledging someone's speed is the same as being overwhelmed by it. And Kakashi acknowledging Haku's skills shows that their speed was equal how? Which would lead to the question of why you keep on pointing out that Sasuke can use the same katon when Madara's was only brought up in the context of the damage it could inflict. But it doesn't matter, you seem to agree that Sasuke's katon is far weaker than Madara's, and as such if Madara's wasn't a big concern, then his certainly won't be.

    Quote Quote:
    * Which was healing or rushing forward to punch. Really, exactly what beyond those things did Tsunade do in battle. Please show me these other tactics that she has available to use here.
    * Well, because neither Zabuza was "busy". They both were playing attention.
    * It doesn't not mean that either. Point remains, that when Naruto and Sasuke team up, Naruto fights better then normal. We saw this against Zabuza and Gaara, where Naruto actually came up with clever plans and employed his clones as a distraction for the plans.
    * The only way that Tsunade could have attacked is if Kabuto was close, and that really doesn't fit with what was shown.
    * It's not when we're comparing the two with the same measuring stick, the Sandaime Raikage's durability.
    * You clearly have missed the point here. I'll try one more time. The fact that Temari's attack could do damage to the cloakless Raikage, while the stronger FRS couldn't do any damage to a cloaked Raikage shows that it was the cloak that was the source of his durability. That goes along with what was later shown, with the Hachibi's story and Naruto using the cloak to pierce itself to take down the Raikage.
    * No she doesn't. If it was Temari's wind, then there would be no point in her even summoning Kamatari.
    And once again, have I proposed anything else. The tactics I speak of is reacting appropriately to an opponent, this is pretty much how this began. I'd say being constrained to one spot with one hand focused on keeping Kakashi in check would qualify. Vs Gaara was mostly Naruto on his own. And Naruto has fought less pragmatically when next to Sasuke, see Forest of Death. It seems to fit perfectly. Nope, still doesn't fit; how is something average if its superior to a large number, but inferior to one? No, that doesn't. The fact that we've seen numerous comments focusing on his durability against the allied forces and the specific mentions of wind techniques would suggest what I've been saying all along. Kamatari does the cutting, we can see the wind coming from her fan.

    Quote Quote:
    * I said that Sasuke could use it as he wanted, that the physical effects that limited his first usage no longer limited his after that.
    * Her reactions? Noticing she was hit after said hit and being incapable of preforming any kind of real counterattack?
    * The flaw is one, your claiming a weakness that isn't there (at no point in the series has the Chidori been implied dogdable but the opposite, that it's really fast to the point of being so dangerous) and two, nothing at all showing that Tsunade's abilities would allow her to avoid it. I on the other hand have used a character with similar speed and examples of faster characters being avoided to show that Sasuke could avoid her attacks.
    * She has "damaged" characters standing around, and not once has done damage enough to actually stop someone from fighting back.
    * What? All I did was point out that in that situation, Itachi wasn't trying to avoid anything, he allowed them to win. He was shown smiling at the end. I think you need to take your own advice, because as pointed out, the series has shown multiple times that the Sharingan's prediction does exactly what I have said it would do.
    * I can and have literally show three examples of Sasuke doing just that with his Sharingan.
    * You referred to it as "my scenarios" when it was your scenario I was replying about. And she wouldn't. With the Sharingan showing Sasuke where she will be, he's not likely to miss, and the Rasengan being "obvious" doesn't mean much if Tsunade has to attempt to avoid Sasuke coming at her. Both Sasuke and Naruto can move just as Tsunade moves, and since both of their techniques can be held til released, they can follow her until they are either made to defend (in which case the other hits) or they actually hit.
    * And CS2 works pretty much like CS1. It's merely the upgraded version.
    Yes, you've said that, and I've yet to see where the manga showed the same. Does that somehow change that she was capable of performing a counterattack? You realise that link comments on Kakashi's speed itself. She avoided attacks from others, why would an even more limited attack be more successful. And yes, you've shown that Kabuto could evade her attacks, she also dodged one of his when exhausted, and she responded to his attack that connected, she would also hit him later before he was able to react. And yes, Sasuke is probably capable of avoiding her attacks in a similar manner, I'm certain I haven't suggested otherwise. I'm not sure Oro was just standing around. And we know that how? I get where you're going, but I'm not sure how you think you've already arrived there. The series has also shown that the Sharingan has limits and doesn't make one untouchable or spot on with every attack, which is what I questioned. Three examples of several moves ahead? I'd like to see those three moves, and several images is not several moves because I'm almost certain that'd be the best you can do. I'm pretty sure the attack from two directions as being unavoidable for her was something you brought up. She can see the attacks before they get close, giving her time to run in the opposite direction, make a mess of the area, or decide to tank and respond. Yep, so you say.

    Quote Quote:
    * So why call me out when I replied about it?
    I didn't call you out, I just reminded you of the context and the differences.

    Quote Quote:
    * No, that it doesn't fit with any of the other examples nor makes sense in any way. Why would it take so long when all the other examples have it happening right after, and why would Naruto have to make a second attempt at getting the Kyuubi's chakra after asking for it?
    * You said it took a whole chapter, when in fact it took one page for Naruto to get the chakra. And the Gaara example has the same thing, him getting the chakra in one page.
    * How? Explain it to me, because Sarutobi's clones were capable of quite a bit and took quite a bit of damage while not popping. And the mechanics of the technique would only apply to the clones ability to use ninjutsu, which isn't a factor for Naruto because he doesn't really have anything but the Rasengan.
    * Fatigue.
    * You did, claimed that I made the claim about Naruto making a thousand clones with Rasengans, when I never even implied such. And then, when I listed exactly what I said, you told me to recheck it, as if I hadn't wrote what I said I did.
    Once again, not what you just claimed I said. Yet, it is an example. And once again, the time for Naruto to get chakra to summon Gamabunta was a whole process that took some time, an entire chapter, and even after he directly demanded it of Kurama right in front f him Kurama had time to make some comments and there was the whole chakra seeping up to him and enveloping him. So two occasions took him some time. And I've already addressed the third on multiple occasions, and he asked because he needed more chakra, he'd used what Kurama had provided on summoning Gama. With more clones, each clone has less chakra, and as such is able to do less. I'm still not sure why this is necessary to explain. I didn't see any fatigue. I'm pretty sure I've already quoted what we've both said and they're the same thing.

    Quote Quote:
    * Spacious, but not massively so.
    * The water is inbetween the statues, it would be included in the jump from one side to the other.
    * And since she would still have to hit them physically to take down the boys and pop the clones, she would basically be wasting more chakra then merely outright hitting them.
    * He showed the Sharingan and copied Zabuza's techniques, and later on summoning. That's two more things then against Sasuke. And the only thing Orochimaru showed after the Forest of Death was Edo Tensei and his sword. He actually used more ninjutsu and genjutsu? against Sasuke then he did against the Sannins.
    Big enough that Tsunade has a wide expanse around her. I'd argue that Tsunade wouldn't need more than that, I doubt shed need more the regular taijutsu without the super punches. Those are just two specific techniques, he didn't use his Sharingan whatsoever against Sasuke, which is Kakashi's selling point, he also didn't use Chidori his signature move, nor did he go after Sasuke with any intent to kill whatsoever. His snake techniques, taijutsu in general, summonings, and once again, techniques aren't everything. If Oro had gone after Sasuke the way he attacked Jiraiya, even without his arms, Sasuke would've been dead pretty quickly. And considering his condition against the Sannin, I'm not sure what you were expecting.

    Quote Quote:
    * Like I said, read her former threads, it was presumed she could heal anything but maybe decapitation by a few. And the fact that there were people who argued against that idea shows otherwise.
    * No, we don't know that. His title of Yellow Flash was thanks to Hiraishin, and even his shunshin usage was actually Hiraishin. We have never seen any impressive speed feat from him outside of Hiraishin. Like I said, Minato was equal on foot to Obito and Obito's pretty slow compared to those noted for their speed.
    * No, not outside of applying their unique skills to the situation. Feel free to show where I said as such without also bring up the Sharingan/clones/Kyuubi cloak.
    * I'm not avoiding anything, I literally just explained to you the difference and why they weren't applicable here like there. I'm not sure how it's avoiding when I point out that it works against Minato because he's slower without Hiraishin then the boys...
    * Which Sasuke is perfectly capable of doing. And no, none of that is closed out. Naruto's clones can remain around even if the Kyuubi's cloak is employed, and he is still fully aware even with the one-tail cloak, so he can still plan and retain control. It's not until the higher tails that he loses those, which isn't an issue here. How can Tsunade fight one-tail Naruto when he can attack her from a long distances away, block any attack with a shield of chakra, and is strong enough to rip through solid stone? Even without the cloak itself, Kyuubi Naruto can counter any attempt Tsunade makes at getting close to him. He'll be able to take her down without her being capable of doing anything to him in turn.
    The argument against decapitation was countered generally by the doubt that they'd be able to do such a thing. And were you one of those few that believed that she could heal from everything, since its pretty your posts I'm referencing? I'm pretty sure Minato's faster than these two are here, I'm certain this doesn't require a debate. Speed feats are speed feats. What I'm criticising is the very things that you claimed showed nothing of speed here, are things that you used for Tsunade against Minato. Basically, you're saying you haven't mentioned it outside the context of their abilities, so you suggested it, obviously their abilities are to be considered. Yes, the clones are still available, but clones in pain aren't particularly useful. I didn't say he wasn't aware, he's just a lot less thoughtful, which isn't saying much, but it's there. Long distance attacks can be avoided and his shield can't block 'any attack'. Once again with the shout thing, he threw someone down who was jumping through the air, it isn't like this is Pain.
    Last edited by Impossibility; March 05, 2014 at 02:32 PM.

  7. #262
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Tired, worn out, seems pretty similar to me. The result is that Kabuto was in the same condition as Tsunade from just running. Sasuke at that time was suggested to have considerably more chakra available to him. You've said that, and yet we've seen others in desperate straits go through healing, and summoning a boss is even more costly. Because you've said that Tsunade's limits in terms of healing and punches is less than what we've seen from Sakura, that's how you did that. She says activated, not gained. The link you pointed to had some fourpointed symbol, while we've seen something far different the seal in the past. And once again, here and here shows Sakura after summoning Katsuyu healing multiple shinobi with remote healing. So once again, arguing both the points you've been supporting simultaneously is nonsensical. Yes, but she was able to handle more damage without healing than most, and Kisame isn't exactly going to make the point. And does that change that she was dead after the number of pages I pointed to, and Sasuke put up his hand with some lightning and then had to be dragged away in critical care. Tsunade had more injuries than Konan, and did far better than Sasuke. The scale was impressive, he even put it in context, and sensing has been treated as such, we've had individuals referred to as sensors. Does that say what you suggested I said, I'm absolutely certain it doesn't. And once again, his arms being torn up didn't stop him from using chakra or fighting, just not at the level which he would expect from himself. And why would Oro need to go for Sasuke, he has subordinates for a reason.
    * The difference is clear. The former is fixed much sooner then the latter. And not seeing the issue. We knew well before that point that physical exertion, like running, would wear a person out. It was the specific difference between Lee and Sasuke's abilities acknowledged during his fight with Gaara.
    * Not akin to the difference between a regular person and Bijuu, which is why your comparison didn't work.
    * Who, in desperate straights, have been capable of healing themselves? Need I point out that in this current arc, we just had Tsunade herself incapable of healing because of her condition. Chiyo needed Naruto's help in reviving Gaara after the fight with Sasori. Sakura acknowledged her own limitation after the fight with Sasori. And Karin also required the healing of another after she was stabbed in the heart. So where exactly have we been shown, apart from I guess the Jinchuuriki who get automatically healed, have we been shown this? And the entire reason I brought up that instants with Sasuke was because it showed him, at the very end of a battle and nearly tapped out, summoning Manda. Unless you're gonna claim that Sasuke had a massive amount of chakra still available, it clearly isn't that costly.
    * I said no such thing. I said, because she has more chakra, Tsunade will simply have a few more punches and healing available, but will still be limited by the costly nature of her fighting style.
    * And as repeatedly stated, the context is clearly the latter. If it was the former, then the following showing with the changed seal makes no sense.
    * No, what we have been a more extended appearance, but the same appearance nonetheless.
    * Except that doesn't change anything argued, since it's not Sakura doing the healing, it's Katsuya. Sakura is merely assisting by lending chakra, and we already saw that even with little chakra being given, Katsuya can still heal, simply at a slower rate.
    * No she's not. If that was true, then she wouldn't have needed to heal right after being stabbed. Heck, even Sarutobi was able to hold on for some time after being stabbed in the back. Tsunade hasn't done anything unique as of this situation.
    * Yeah, since it was implied that she was purposely killed by Obito afterward, not merely dying of her wound. And the point is that Sasuke wasn't in critical condition. Far better? That's a laugh.
    * The Kyuubi specifically called out that it too could pass along chakra to anyone through him too. And no, not as a whole. A select few characters get hype because of their unique sensing abilities, like Karin, but there are plenty more that don't, like Kakashi. Heck, even Orochimaru and Team Taka were shown capable of sensing during the current arc.
    * You called it asinine to believe that Orochimaru would want to depend on someone else. And so? He didn't send the Sound Four off to fight a war for him, he sent them to retrieve a single person. Are you really trying to claim that to do that Orochimaru would have had to fight at his top level? As for why, because as shown, he was in a rush to switch bodies straight away, and clearly going to Sasuke himself would have allowed him to get a new body way much quicker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm sure if you tried you could think of more people who've used Sharingans or Hashirama cells. No, you asked me a question about who those two would be incapable of handling, so I provided. How does Kimimaro support your argument, he isn't Sakon? Kitsuchi, the guy with Dotons that could stand up to the Gedo, that requires justification? And Ao has a Byakugan and survived Shisui, so I thought he deserved to be on the list. Oro was toying with his old protégé, seriously? And I'm not sure what logic you're attributing to me, but clearly you need to rethink it. It doesn't show that because he was coming from a different distance and it assumes that the Jounin were using their full speed, although the distance alone makes a pretty big difference. So Anko was tasked to bring Kabuto in, so what? She was an expert in things Orochimaru. Simple take the performances of the Tokubetsu Jounin, Raido, Genma, Ibiki, Ebisu, Aoba and compare it the Jounin from the same village; Kakashi, Guy, Kurenai, Asuma, and I'm obviously not including the strongest individuals of that rank because that would just skew things too much. Just a trick ability doesn't make on better than a Jounin. What about catching the two at the same time isn't translating? And is Ukon somewhere different from Sakon, he's going to take damage too if their body is hit by a fatal blow. I haven't changed my argument. I asked you to point out where I said what you claimed I said. This isn't the only time recently where you've attempted to claim I've said something and were just wrong. Something to show they were well below; the only fights we saw they couldn't finish off one genin and then lost to another one, and although the second one could be said to be better than most, Kiba wouldn't even rank in the top ten genin we've seen. Oro's statement is meaningless because we see that he was being help up by a decent genin. You're trying to portray statements as some evidence of his fighting prowess, but we've actually seen it, and it doesn't amount to what you've claimed.
    * Not compared to the number of people who have employed barriers.
    * Yeah, and in response you pointed to a bunch of S-rank characters, who could only really be handled by other S-rank characters and even that's not a sure thing. Kimimaro is one of the Sound Four, thereby showing the power of the group as I have been claiming. Kitsuchi didn't stand up to the Gedo Mazo, and the explanation I want is how would he fight them? He's shown a bunch of powerful AOE attacks, but they seem useless in close combat. The only way that would work is if the fight starts with them a good distances away from each other, which is pretty situational. The Byakugan is far from a game changer without the Gentle Fist, and we have no idea what the conditions were involving Shisui.
    * When has Orochimaru not toyed with an opponent? Orochimaru toyed with Sarutobi and the Four Tail Naruto. Fact remains that Anko was capable of getting a few hits in, something the jounin Kakashi was incapable of. Your logic was that a special jounin could not do what a jounin could do, so clearly if a jounin couldn't even imagine making a move against Orochimaru, then the special jounin shouldn't have even been able to move.
    * So you assume the jounins were using their full speed, but not the special jounin because...? Distances is moot when shunshin is employed.
    * Kabuto, a high ranking missingnin and someone with "jounin-level skills" who took on a Sannin. Exactly how is that a task for someone supposedly weaker then a jounin? I did do that and I have seen no real difference aside from the aforementioned Kakashi and Gai. They did just as well against the Paths as the jounins, just as well against Kisame and Kabuto, and just as well against the Oto/Suna forces. Where was it shown the special jounin preforming so much worst at some task then the jounins?
    * A trick ability does in fact do just that. Look at Hidan, look at the Paths, heck look at Obito. All powerful because of a unique ability, that once it was gotten around, they weren't anything serious.
    * How it would be done, since as I just pointed out, to catch someone in a genjutsu, you have to target a specific sense. Kurenai wouldn't be able to catch Ukon in her genjutsu if he's inside his brother and not looking at her. The only way she would ever get such a chance is if they divided and faced her, something they aren't likely to do til the end.
    * Not likely given the way their ability has been shown. If Sakon could take damage with Ukon, that would have meant he would have taken on Ukon's wounds, which didn't happen. The opposite seem to be the case, as Ukon returned to his brother to heal.
    * So again, your argument is simply that Sakon/Ukon could be beaten by some jounin but not others? And also, every time I say you claimed something, I have had no trouble providing the quotes to said comment.
    * What are you talking about? Kiba was shown considerably skilled. He was also one of the faster genins. The very fact that he was not only part of the Konoha 9 but personally picked by Shikamaru shows he was no ordinary genin. Except that it does, because the entire Sasuke retrieval arc showcased how extraordinary that group was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm pretty sure I've pointed to this before; my comment and your response to it.
    * Yes, that there was a difference between Part One and Part Two, which I pointed to. You have been claiming that his sand was faster beyond that instants, and I asked for where such a thing was stated in the manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    As for the examples, the speed that allowed him to compete in the first place againt the 2nd, and Oonoki wasn't always there against Madara. But of course, you;ve already acknowledged the difference. Your standard for overwhelming seems pretty low. Does that change that she was slower then she is in peak condition? And I was unaware that acknowledging someone's speed is the same as being overwhelmed by it. And Kakashi acknowledging Haku's skills shows that their speed was equal how? Which would lead to the question of why you keep on pointing out that Sasuke can use the same katon when Madara's was only brought up in the context of the damage it could inflict. But it doesn't matter, you seem to agree that Sasuke's katon is far weaker than Madara's, and as such if Madara's wasn't a big concern, then his certainly won't be.
    * But as I have been saying, his sand already had that sort of speed in Part One, where he was capable of nearly keeping up with a speedster. Nothing supports the belief that the Nidaime Mizukage or Jokey Boi were on another level. And Madara was on another level, which is why he was so much faster then Gaara's sand before Onoki.
    * So being able to hit someone and not get hit by them in return multiple times isn't pretty overpowering to them? And her "lack" of being in peak condition was due to her own action, actions that would be repeated in this situation. It's not as if there were external conditions responsible for it. Deidara acknowledges several times that Sasuke was too fast for him, despite them having the same base speed.
    * No, the databook shows their speed was equal. Kakashi acknowledging Haku's skills simply shows that it wasn't merely due to his mirrors.
    * Because I was pointing out that there was no major damage, and using Sasuke's usage of it to show that.
    * Wasn't a big concern damage-wise, which I acknowledged, but as I have been saying, prefect for minor trouble and distractions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And once again, have I proposed anything else. The tactics I speak of is reacting appropriately to an opponent, this is pretty much how this began. I'd say being constrained to one spot with one hand focused on keeping Kakashi in check would qualify. Vs Gaara was mostly Naruto on his own. And Naruto has fought less pragmatically when next to Sasuke, see Forest of Death. It seems to fit perfectly. Nope, still doesn't fit; how is something average if its superior to a large number, but inferior to one? No, that doesn't. The fact that we've seen numerous comments focusing on his durability against the allied forces and the specific mentions of wind techniques would suggest what I've been saying all along. Kamatari does the cutting, we can see the wind coming from her fan.
    * You keep bring up her tactics as if I hadn't already mentioned her healing or straight forward punching. And reacting after the fact is something anyone can do.
    * Not when he had a clone to protect him and was still capable of dodging an attack.
    * Naruto got that way because he wanted to protect Sasuke and Sakura. And I'm not sure how having his clones transform into his team as a distraction is fighting less pragmatically. That was a good tactic. Heck, we actually saw Naruto listen to Sasuke.
    * If Tsunade was close enough to hit, that would have meant that she could have also hit Orochimaru, and thus would have been capable of stopping them from moving further away. It also would have meant that she wouldn't have had a bunch of punch marks around one area.
    * Because we're not talking about "a large number". We were solely talking about the two techniques that got used against one specific target, the Sandaime Raikage. There were no other wind techniques used that could be added to the comparison.
    * Except it doesn't, because aside from what has already been said, as originally mentioned, "wind techniques" would only be a solution to counter lightning techniques, which would support that it was the cloak since there wouldn't be no other reason to just use wind techniques.
    * We saw the wind connected to Kamatari upon summoning, nothing to suggest that the wind came from Temari, because again, what would be the point of summoning Kamatari then if she was basically capable of doing it herself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, you've said that, and I've yet to see where the manga showed the same. Does that somehow change that she was capable of performing a counterattack? You realise that link comments on Kakashi's speed itself. She avoided attacks from others, why would an even more limited attack be more successful. And yes, you've shown that Kabuto could evade her attacks, she also dodged one of his when exhausted, and she responded to his attack that connected, she would also hit him later before he was able to react. And yes, Sasuke is probably capable of avoiding her attacks in a similar manner, I'm certain I haven't suggested otherwise. I'm not sure Oro was just standing around. And we know that how? I get where you're going, but I'm not sure how you think you've already arrived there. The series has also shown that the Sharingan has limits and doesn't make one untouchable or spot on with every attack, which is what I questioned. Three examples of several moves ahead? I'd like to see those three moves, and several images is not several moves because I'm almost certain that'd be the best you can do. I'm pretty sure the attack from two directions as being unavoidable for her was something you brought up. She can see the attacks before they get close, giving her time to run in the opposite direction, make a mess of the area, or decide to tank and respond. Yep, so you say.
    * With CS1, as I have repeatedly mentioned.
    * It's not much of a counterattack if it's not an actual attack.
    * Minato states "a thrust all concentrated on one point... of course you have the destructive power and speed, but". And Tsunade hasn't got a good record of avoid attacks, even attacks that come straight on. There's no way she would be able to avoid a faster attack, especially if distracted beforehand.
    * Hitting someone when they are turnt away is not a feat, and what is the point of bring up an example where no harm was capable of being done?
    * Orochimaru was just standing there.
    * The "limits" were already acknowledged, failing against either a faster opponent or a way to block the sight. Neither of those limitations would come into play here. The series itself has made it clear that beyond those, the Sharingan is a powerful tool.
    * Several images is several moves ahead. Seeing what a person will do 30 seconds/perhaps one minute ahead is the very definition of that.
    * You were the one who brought up her standing there and tanking Sasuke's attack, at which point I brought up Naruto attacking from behind while she does that. She's not fast enough to run away from them (Kabuto shows us that), and her running away does not stop the boys from simply following her. Making a "mess" of the area wouldn't stop the attacks either, and tanking won't be likely unless she has her seal active.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I didn't call you out, I just reminded you of the context and the differences.
    * And since I never claimed that Four Tail Naruto wasn't beyond Naruto at this point, there was no reason to continue with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Once again, not what you just claimed I said. Yet, it is an example. And once again, the time for Naruto to get chakra to summon Gamabunta was a whole process that took some time, an entire chapter, and even after he directly demanded it of Kurama right in front f him Kurama had time to make some comments and there was the whole chakra seeping up to him and enveloping him. So two occasions took him some time. And I've already addressed the third on multiple occasions, and he asked because he needed more chakra, he'd used what Kurama had provided on summoning Gama. With more clones, each clone has less chakra, and as such is able to do less. I'm still not sure why this is necessary to explain. I didn't see any fatigue. I'm pretty sure I've already quoted what we've both said and they're the same thing.
    * How is it not? You say several times that it would take time for Naruto to get the Kyuubi's chakra, that he can't just whip it out.
    * No it's not, it just doesn't fit.
    * What? How the heck did it take an entire chapter? The majority of the chapter was Naruto falling, what was going on in Suna, and Naruto actually meeting the Kyuubi for the first time. Actually asking for and getting the chakra took one page and panel. That's at best a moment, which is what I have been saying. No way that you can claim it took longer then that, especially since it was inside his mental world.
    * There's no "some time" about it. Neither the one with Gamabunta or Gaara took anything longer then a moment. He literally had the chakra the very same pages he asked for it.
    * Use less techniques you mean. Less chakra does not prevent them from doing anything else, limits said actions, or physically weaken them, as we saw against Gaara and later Deva Path.
    * He showed fatigue right after losing his CS2.
    * No, they aren't. As I said before, I never suggested or implied the idea of a thousand clones with Rasengans. I only ever spoke about a hundred and five hundred using them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Big enough that Tsunade has a wide expanse around her. I'd argue that Tsunade wouldn't need more than that, I doubt shed need more the regular taijutsu without the super punches. Those are just two specific techniques, he didn't use his Sharingan whatsoever against Sasuke, which is Kakashi's selling point, he also didn't use Chidori his signature move, nor did he go after Sasuke with any intent to kill whatsoever. His snake techniques, taijutsu in general, summonings, and once again, techniques aren't everything. If Oro had gone after Sasuke the way he attacked Jiraiya, even without his arms, Sasuke would've been dead pretty quickly. And considering his condition against the Sannin, I'm not sure what you were expecting.
    * But still within range of the trees and thus the traps.
    * I already showed the clones capable of taking hits hard enough to cause them to bleed. If her super punches has barely been shown doing that, there's no way her regular punches will do anything.
    * No, they were general actions. The Sharingan is a double-edge, and even adding Chidori, it's hardly "far more" then against Sasuke. Orochimaru used both summoning and his snake technique against Sasuke. And again, it's merely general actions, not specifics. Orochimaru did go after Sasuke like he did Jiraiya, so that point is false. Either you believe that his condition didn't hinder him or it did, can't have it both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The argument against decapitation was countered generally by the doubt that they'd be able to do such a thing. And were you one of those few that believed that she could heal from everything, since its pretty your posts I'm referencing? I'm pretty sure Minato's faster than these two are here, I'm certain this doesn't require a debate. Speed feats are speed feats. What I'm criticising is the very things that you claimed showed nothing of speed here, are things that you used for Tsunade against Minato. Basically, you're saying you haven't mentioned it outside the context of their abilities, so you suggested it, obviously their abilities are to be considered. Yes, the clones are still available, but clones in pain aren't particularly useful. I didn't say he wasn't aware, he's just a lot less thoughtful, which isn't saying much, but it's there. Long distance attacks can be avoided and his shield can't block 'any attack'. Once again with the shout thing, he threw someone down who was jumping through the air, it isn't like this is Pain.
    * Yes, I acknowledged that before this arc, I was one of those people.
    * With Hiraishin, as said. He's shown nothing outside of it and the current arc has put him well below Kakashi and Gai. And no, speed feats are just speed feats when you're talking about a specific mode of travel.
    * Which as I have said, was specifically because of the different conditions and beliefs between that point and now. I'm not sure what's not to get about how I do not believe Minato has anything greater then average speed outside of Hiraishin, therefore it would take a lot less for something to be a good feat against him then against characters actually noted for speed.
    * I'm not sure what you are saying here.
    * I suggest you look at the link again, there are no clones in pain. They might be panicking, but that's only because he's going three tails, which isn't an issue here. There is no way you can say he's "less thoughtful" without something to back it up. Sure, they could be avoided, but at the same time his speed would make that hard to deal with, not to mention creating an opening for Sasuke to attack too. A shield of chakra would block all but the most destructive attacks. And what? Sasuke wasn't jumping anywhere, and not only the shout blast away his fire attack, but knocked him deep underwater. Both in Part One and Part Two we are shown that the shouting has considerable force behind it. It basically would be a weaker Shinra Tensei. Since Tsunade will likely be standing on the water too, there's no reason she couldn't get blasted underneath like Sasuke.

  8. #263
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    * The difference is clear. The former is fixed much sooner then the latter. And not seeing the issue. We knew well before that point that physical exertion, like running, would wear a person out. It was the specific difference between Lee and Sasuke's abilities acknowledged during his fight with Gaara.
    * Not akin to the difference between a regular person and Bijuu, which is why your comparison didn't work.
    * Who, in desperate straights, have been capable of healing themselves? Need I point out that in this current arc, we just had Tsunade herself incapable of healing because of her condition. Chiyo needed Naruto's help in reviving Gaara after the fight with Sasori. Sakura acknowledged her own limitation after the fight with Sasori. And Karin also required the healing of another after she was stabbed in the heart. So where exactly have we been shown, apart from I guess the Jinchuuriki who get automatically healed, have we been shown this? And the entire reason I brought up that instants with Sasuke was because it showed him, at the very end of a battle and nearly tapped out, summoning Manda. Unless you're gonna claim that Sasuke had a massive amount of chakra still available, it clearly isn't that costly.
    * I said no such thing. I said, because she has more chakra, Tsunade will simply have a few more punches and healing available, but will still be limited by the costly nature of her fighting style.
    * And as repeatedly stated, the context is clearly the latter. If it was the former, then the following showing with the changed seal makes no sense.
    * No, what we have been a more extended appearance, but the same appearance nonetheless.
    * Except that doesn't change anything argued, since it's not Sakura doing the healing, it's Katsuya. Sakura is merely assisting by lending chakra, and we already saw that even with little chakra being given, Katsuya can still heal, simply at a slower rate.
    * No she's not. If that was true, then she wouldn't have needed to heal right after being stabbed. Heck, even Sarutobi was able to hold on for some time after being stabbed in the back. Tsunade hasn't done anything unique as of this situation.
    * Yeah, since it was implied that she was purposely killed by Obito afterward, not merely dying of her wound. And the point is that Sasuke wasn't in critical condition. Far better? That's a laugh.
    * The Kyuubi specifically called out that it too could pass along chakra to anyone through him too. And no, not as a whole. A select few characters get hype because of their unique sensing abilities, like Karin, but there are plenty more that don't, like Kakashi. Heck, even Orochimaru and Team Taka were shown capable of sensing during the current arc.
    * You called it asinine to believe that Orochimaru would want to depend on someone else. And so? He didn't send the Sound Four off to fight a war for him, he sent them to retrieve a single person. Are you really trying to claim that to do that Orochimaru would have had to fight at his top level? As for why, because as shown, he was in a rush to switch bodies straight away, and clearly going to Sasuke himself would have allowed him to get a new body way much quicker.
    It is so clear that you repeat the phrase you just criticised me for using. How a bijuu gets in a matter involving Sasuke and Kabuto is beyond me. Tsunade has; Chiyo needed help because she'd utilised some of her life force saving Sakura, acknowledging her limitation doesn't somehow change what she did, and Karin is an idiot. Sasuke had enough to summon Manda, a considerable amount, but only a fraction of his total chakra; we know boss summons require a lot of chakra, this isn't worth a discussion. Yep, you did, by specifically stating the limits of what Tsunade would be capable of, going so far as to enumerate punches and healings, and having those limits be inferior to Sakura's own showings. The appearance of the seal you linked to and Tsunade's seal's traditional appearance aren't even close to similar. And once again, the seal appears, her punches get a massive boost in power, she summons Katsuyu for the first time, Katsuyu comments on the activation of the seal, Shizune does the same, and Sakura utilises her seal to heal the armed forces. I'm going to just point out that your claims about the remote healing technique are different from what has been stated about the technique; the user channels their chakra through Katsuyu to heal. Even your own claim lays out that the healing would be slower with less chakra, the healing in this case was pretty much instantaneous and completed for an entire army. I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that Sakura managed what she did without the aid of the seal. She didn't need to be healed immediately after, she even decided to give a short speech, she healed in such a manner because she intended to take on Oro. And that shows that Konan after receiving a lesser wound managed to attempt a technique, that's it. And yes, Tsunade getting up, hitting an opponent, showing her resolve, and healing herself is far better than Sasuke being yanked away by Karin in the middle of battle as he'd fading out of consciousness. I think you're confusing sensors with the ability to feel chakra, they're different, everyone can feel chakra. The fact remains that sensors are a dedicated class the manga has portrayed, while there is no such thing for simply sharing chakra. Yes, that is what I was said, and somehow I'm sure if you go back you'd discover that isn't what you earlier claimed I said. It's one thing to paraphrase, it's another thing to make up an argument. No, I've in fact suggested otherwise repeatedly. The capture of Sasuke didn't much factor into what we were addressing.

    Quote Quote:
    * Not compared to the number of people who have employed barriers.
    * Yeah, and in response you pointed to a bunch of S-rank characters, who could only really be handled by other S-rank characters and even that's not a sure thing. Kimimaro is one of the Sound Four, thereby showing the power of the group as I have been claiming. Kitsuchi didn't stand up to the Gedo Mazo, and the explanation I want is how would he fight them? He's shown a bunch of powerful AOE attacks, but they seem useless in close combat. The only way that would work is if the fight starts with them a good distances away from each other, which is pretty situational. The Byakugan is far from a game changer without the Gentle Fist, and we have no idea what the conditions were involving Shisui.
    * When has Orochimaru not toyed with an opponent? Orochimaru toyed with Sarutobi and the Four Tail Naruto. Fact remains that Anko was capable of getting a few hits in, something the jounin Kakashi was incapable of. Your logic was that a special jounin could not do what a jounin could do, so clearly if a jounin couldn't even imagine making a move against Orochimaru, then the special jounin shouldn't have even been able to move.
    * So you assume the jounins were using their full speed, but not the special jounin because...? Distances is moot when shunshin is employed.
    * Kabuto, a high ranking missingnin and someone with "jounin-level skills" who took on a Sannin. Exactly how is that a task for someone supposedly weaker then a jounin? I did do that and I have seen no real difference aside from the aforementioned Kakashi and Gai. They did just as well against the Paths as the jounins, just as well against Kisame and Kabuto, and just as well against the Oto/Suna forces. Where was it shown the special jounin preforming so much worst at some task then the jounins?
    * A trick ability does in fact do just that. Look at Hidan, look at the Paths, heck look at Obito. All powerful because of a unique ability, that once it was gotten around, they weren't anything serious.
    * How it would be done, since as I just pointed out, to catch someone in a genjutsu, you have to target a specific sense. Kurenai wouldn't be able to catch Ukon in her genjutsu if he's inside his brother and not looking at her. The only way she would ever get such a chance is if they divided and faced her, something they aren't likely to do til the end.
    * Not likely given the way their ability has been shown. If Sakon could take damage with Ukon, that would have meant he would have taken on Ukon's wounds, which didn't happen. The opposite seem to be the case, as Ukon returned to his brother to heal.
    * So again, your argument is simply that Sakon/Ukon could be beaten by some jounin but not others? And also, every time I say you claimed something, I have had no trouble providing the quotes to said comment.
    * What are you talking about? Kiba was shown considerably skilled. He was also one of the faster genins. The very fact that he was not only part of the Konoha 9 but personally picked by Shikamaru shows he was no ordinary genin. Except that it does, because the entire Sasuke retrieval arc showcased how extraordinary that group was.
    This has gone beyond ridiculous. I've pretty much pointed to everything that would suggest otherwise, yet you're apparently sticking to the baseless claim that Sakon is 'better than Jounin'. I'm not sure if there's a point to this anymore.

    Quote Quote:
    * Yes, that there was a difference between Part One and Part Two, which I pointed to. You have been claiming that his sand was faster beyond that instants, and I asked for where such a thing was stated in the manga.
    You reference Part 1 and Part 2, not a single instance in Part 2. And it wasn't stated, but using its performance in Part 1 and Part 2 we can make a comparison.

    Quote Quote:
    * But as I have been saying, his sand already had that sort of speed in Part One, where he was capable of nearly keeping up with a speedster. Nothing supports the belief that the Nidaime Mizukage or Jokey Boi were on another level. And Madara was on another level, which is why he was so much faster then Gaara's sand before Onoki.
    * So being able to hit someone and not get hit by them in return multiple times isn't pretty overpowering to them? And her "lack" of being in peak condition was due to her own action, actions that would be repeated in this situation. It's not as if there were external conditions responsible for it. Deidara acknowledges several times that Sasuke was too fast for him, despite them having the same base speed.
    * No, the databook shows their speed was equal. Kakashi acknowledging Haku's skills simply shows that it wasn't merely due to his mirrors.
    * Because I was pointing out that there was no major damage, and using Sasuke's usage of it to show that.
    * Wasn't a big concern damage-wise, which I acknowledged, but as I have been saying, prefect for minor trouble and distractions.
    I'm pretty sure the manga made it clear that Gaara's sand wasn't keeping up. The best it could do was hold off weighted Lee. We've seen references to Jokey Boy's speed, and the Mizukage's performance. I'm pretty sure Madara avoiding Gaara's sand doesn't make the point you're trying to make. Kabuto hit her twice in one move while she was exhausted, and had to use debris as cover to do it, that's not overwhelming someone with speed. And once again, where is this requirement that she go off on a rampage to start this battle off, she was pissed off. So Deidara acknowledging Sasuke's speed is him being overwhelmed by it? Those seem like two different things. So Kakashi acknowledging skills is somehow indicative of him having equal speed to Haku without the mirrors, despite evidence to the contrary. And once again, if we want to go the databook stats route, Tsunade and Sasuke's speed are pretty much the same, so he isn't blitzing anyone. Try some consistency, in the very same paragraph that you're arguing that even with the same stats Sasuke speed was far beyond Deidara's, you're going with the claim that the databook stats make it clear that Kakashi and Haku had the same speed. So Sasuke is going to use his weak katons to try to distract her, I don't imagine she'd be worried.

    Quote Quote:
    * You keep bring up her tactics as if I hadn't already mentioned her healing or straight forward punching. And reacting after the fact is something anyone can do.
    * Not when he had a clone to protect him and was still capable of dodging an attack.
    * Naruto got that way because he wanted to protect Sasuke and Sakura. And I'm not sure how having his clones transform into his team as a distraction is fighting less pragmatically. That was a good tactic. Heck, we actually saw Naruto listen to Sasuke.
    * If Tsunade was close enough to hit, that would have meant that she could have also hit Orochimaru, and thus would have been capable of stopping them from moving further away. It also would have meant that she wouldn't have had a bunch of punch marks around one area.
    * Because we're not talking about "a large number". We were solely talking about the two techniques that got used against one specific target, the Sandaime Raikage. There were no other wind techniques used that could be added to the comparison.
    * Except it doesn't, because aside from what has already been said, as originally mentioned, "wind techniques" would only be a solution to counter lightning techniques, which would support that it was the cloak since there wouldn't be no other reason to just use wind techniques.
    * We saw the wind connected to Kamatari upon summoning, nothing to suggest that the wind came from Temari, because again, what would be the point of summoning Kamatari then if she was basically capable of doing it herself.
    I'm pointing to tactics because you seem to operate under the assumption that Tsunade is going to run around punching air and disregard her opponents. Water clones aren't close to the real thing, and his movement was limited by the fact that he was containing Kakashi, if he wasn't, the plan wouldn't have worked. That wasn't what I was referencing, and I haven't disputed that Naruto can listen to Sasuke, I've disputed it being a sure thing given the fact that he's also done otherwise. I'm not sure what the point of this bit about Tsunade is, it seems to be pretty questionable logic. If someone's attacking from one direction, what would stop an opponent from just fleeing in the opposite one. You were talking about two techniques, it was way beyond that as soon as I made it clear that Temari was the best wind user available from pretty much an entire division. And we know what the other wind techniques did, they failed. And I've already pointed out that the only justification for that approach was because it targeted a weakness, and I've also pointed out that his body is pretty strong with or without his cloak. The point of Kamatari was the slicing, the things floats around with a sickle. I'm pretty sure there wouldn't have been any purpose in swinging the fan other than to create the wind.

    Quote Quote:
    * With CS1, as I have repeatedly mentioned.
    * It's not much of a counterattack if it's not an actual attack.
    * Minato states "a thrust all concentrated on one point... of course you have the destructive power and speed, but". And Tsunade hasn't got a good record of avoid attacks, even attacks that come straight on. There's no way she would be able to avoid a faster attack, especially if distracted beforehand.
    * Hitting someone when they are turnt away is not a feat, and what is the point of bring up an example where no harm was capable of being done?
    * Orochimaru was just standing there.
    * The "limits" were already acknowledged, failing against either a faster opponent or a way to block the sight. Neither of those limitations would come into play here. The series itself has made it clear that beyond those, the Sharingan is a powerful tool.
    * Several images is several moves ahead. Seeing what a person will do 30 seconds/perhaps one minute ahead is the very definition of that.
    * You were the one who brought up her standing there and tanking Sasuke's attack, at which point I brought up Naruto attacking from behind while she does that. She's not fast enough to run away from them (Kabuto shows us that), and her running away does not stop the boys from simply following her. Making a "mess" of the area wouldn't stop the attacks either, and tanking won't be likely unless she has her seal active.
    You keep on mentioning it, but haven't given anything that suggests that its the case. We've had this discussion about qualifying what her blow was, I don't see the point in repeating it. Minato references Kakashi's speed, the technique's thrust is as fast as its user. I've already pointed out that I was referencing charge. Faster attack than what? And a distraction used with Chidori is pretty pointless, the technique is extremely loud and obvious. And Kabuto didn't turn away, he might not have been on top of things, but she attacked from right in front of him. And Oro wasn't just standing around, he was raving at Tsunade for constantly thwarting his attempts to finish Naruto. And he was most definitely paying attention to her, and he still got hit in the face. Several images isn't several moves, three images of someone moving a metre away isn't multiple moves. And I'm certain you've completely lost your mind with this 30 second/one minute nonsense. This started when you said she'd be incapable of avoiding a simultaneous attack from the both of them, which she can. If she wants she can take some risk, tank the attacks and take out one or both of the boys. I was unaware than she ran away from Kabuto, and yes, destroying the surrounding area would definitely screw up Sasuke's chidori attempt and would slow down Naruto's.

    Quote Quote:
    * And since I never claimed that Four Tail Naruto wasn't beyond Naruto at this point, there was no reason to continue with it.
    But you attempted to use the showing he had against Oro as some indicator of the threat Naruto posed in Part 1, so I made certain to discourage such notions.

    Quote Quote:
    * How is it not? You say several times that it would take time for Naruto to get the Kyuubi's chakra, that he can't just whip it out.
    * No it's not, it just doesn't fit.
    * What? How the heck did it take an entire chapter? The majority of the chapter was Naruto falling, what was going on in Suna, and Naruto actually meeting the Kyuubi for the first time. Actually asking for and getting the chakra took one page and panel. That's at best a moment, which is what I have been saying. No way that you can claim it took longer then that, especially since it was inside his mental world.
    * There's no "some time" about it. Neither the one with Gamabunta or Gaara took anything longer then a moment. He literally had the chakra the very same pages he asked for it.
    * Use less techniques you mean. Less chakra does not prevent them from doing anything else, limits said actions, or physically weaken them, as we saw against Gaara and later Deva Path.
    * He showed fatigue right after losing his CS2.
    * No, they aren't. As I said before, I never suggested or implied the idea of a thousand clones with Rasengans. I only ever spoke about a hundred and five hundred using them.
    I'm pretty sure if you go back up again and check what you earlier claimed I said that I disagreed with is different what you're saying here, again. Yet, it is an example, you constantly saying it doesn't fit your thinking would suggest that you should probably alter your thinking. You realise that when I say process, and I've said process over and over again, I included everything that went on in his seal. A page and a panel, during which Kurama had time to say a few words, and Naruto got wrapped up by some dark chakra, that's more than a moment, that is at the very least, a few moments. And once again the Neji example, and a page and a panel including comments from Kurama is longer than a moment. Less chakra means they get exhausted faster, they've less techniques available to them, and fewer cracks at those techniques. That was after a battle, I'd imagine that would cause some problems, add that to the issues with the CS2 itself, and that doesn't day anything about his condition after his release from his box. Once again, if you can show me where I laid out something different from what you put forward, I'd be happy to accept.

    Quote Quote:
    * But still within range of the trees and thus the traps.
    * I already showed the clones capable of taking hits hard enough to cause them to bleed. If her super punches has barely been shown doing that, there's no way her regular punches will do anything.
    * No, they were general actions. The Sharingan is a double-edge, and even adding Chidori, it's hardly "far more" then against Sasuke. Orochimaru used both summoning and his snake technique against Sasuke. And again, it's merely general actions, not specifics. Orochimaru did go after Sasuke like he did Jiraiya, so that point is false. Either you believe that his condition didn't hinder him or it did, can't have it both ways.
    Not based on the trap you linked to. Regular taijutsu from Sasuke took out clones, Tsunade who's naturally stronger than Sasuke shouldn't have any problem. The Sharingan is clearly worth far more than the cost to the user, and Chidori is his signature technique, those combined with the summonings are far more. And I find it funny that you're attempting to dismiss the Sharingan and Chidori when they're pretty much the entire basis of your argument for Sasuke being able to do something to Tsunade. I think everything would show that Oro was more serious against Jiraiya. And I've little clue what you're trying to say about me having it both ways. Have I ever suggested that his condition didn't hinder him?

    Quote Quote:
    * Yes, I acknowledged that before this arc, I was one of those people.
    * With Hiraishin, as said. He's shown nothing outside of it and the current arc has put him well below Kakashi and Gai. And no, speed feats are just speed feats when you're talking about a specific mode of travel.
    * Which as I have said, was specifically because of the different conditions and beliefs between that point and now. I'm not sure what's not to get about how I do not believe Minato has anything greater then average speed outside of Hiraishin, therefore it would take a lot less for something to be a good feat against him then against characters actually noted for speed.
    * I'm not sure what you are saying here.
    * I suggest you look at the link again, there are no clones in pain. They might be panicking, but that's only because he's going three tails, which isn't an issue here. There is no way you can say he's "less thoughtful" without something to back it up. Sure, they could be avoided, but at the same time his speed would make that hard to deal with, not to mention creating an opening for Sasuke to attack too. A shield of chakra would block all but the most destructive attacks. And what? Sasuke wasn't jumping anywhere, and not only the shout blast away his fire attack, but knocked him deep underwater. Both in Part One and Part Two we are shown that the shouting has considerable force behind it. It basically would be a weaker Shinra Tensei. Since Tsunade will likely be standing on the water too, there's no reason she couldn't get blasted underneath like Sasuke.
    And yet something changed in this arc to suggest otherwise. You would've thought that her almost dying after the attack on Konoha would've sorted that out, or just logic. You know what's funny? If you go back to the beginning of this thread you're declaring that Minato shows the value of speed, what changed? That doesn't make any sense. If you'd said that some of these feats aren't enough to suggest that she'd be able to take on these two, maybe, but you've attempted to completely deny that they can be used as indicators of speed entirely. Naruto in pain. His general approach when he's in that form. How did Sasuke pop up again, I'm pretty sure that I was addressing the claim about Tsunade being unable to handle one-tail Naruto. I'd qualify Tsuande's attacks as very destructive. He was just above the water, and was pushed down through it. The first link doesn't show much, and the second is of Bijuu-mode, which I'm not even going to imagine is something you're going to attempt to draw an actual comparison to. A weaker Shinra Tensei, much, much, much, much, much weaker, more like a gust on a windy day, less like being hit by a train.

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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It is so clear that you repeat the phrase you just criticised me for using. How a bijuu gets in a matter involving Sasuke and Kabuto is beyond me. Tsunade has; Chiyo needed help because she'd utilised some of her life force saving Sakura, acknowledging her limitation doesn't somehow change what she did, and Karin is an idiot. Sasuke had enough to summon Manda, a considerable amount, but only a fraction of his total chakra; we know boss summons require a lot of chakra, this isn't worth a discussion. Yep, you did, by specifically stating the limits of what Tsunade would be capable of, going so far as to enumerate punches and healings, and having those limits be inferior to Sakura's own showings. The appearance of the seal you linked to and Tsunade's seal's traditional appearance aren't even close to similar. And once again, the seal appears, her punches get a massive boost in power, she summons Katsuyu for the first time, Katsuyu comments on the activation of the seal, Shizune does the same, and Sakura utilises her seal to heal the armed forces. I'm going to just point out that your claims about the remote healing technique are different from what has been stated about the technique; the user channels their chakra through Katsuyu to heal. Even your own claim lays out that the healing would be slower with less chakra, the healing in this case was pretty much instantaneous and completed for an entire army. I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that Sakura managed what she did without the aid of the seal. She didn't need to be healed immediately after, she even decided to give a short speech, she healed in such a manner because she intended to take on Oro. And that shows that Konan after receiving a lesser wound managed to attempt a technique, that's it. And yes, Tsunade getting up, hitting an opponent, showing her resolve, and healing herself is far better than Sasuke being yanked away by Karin in the middle of battle as he'd fading out of consciousness. I think you're confusing sensors with the ability to feel chakra, they're different, everyone can feel chakra. The fact remains that sensors are a dedicated class the manga has portrayed, while there is no such thing for simply sharing chakra. Yes, that is what I was said, and somehow I'm sure if you go back you'd discover that isn't what you earlier claimed I said. It's one thing to paraphrase, it's another thing to make up an argument. No, I've in fact suggested otherwise repeatedly. The capture of Sasuke didn't much factor into what we were addressing.
    * Where exactly did I do that? I disagreed with the idea that he was worn out, and instead preferred tired. You said they were similar and I proceeded to point out the difference.
    * You tired to use the comparison with Hashirama, who the manga has stated has chakra equal to the complete Kyuubi. So said comparison doesn't work, because there is a far obvious difference between a regular person and someone comparable to a Bijuu then two regular people.
    * Except Tsunade hasn't, which has been part of the basis of my argument. We were just literally shown her in a desperate situation incapable of healing herself, to the point of requiring someone else to heal her. But it does, since it goes against your argument of them being able to heal themselves in such situations. If we got acknowledgement that low life force, pretty much meaning near death, hinders the ability for her to heal along, then there isn't any reason to assume she would have been capable of doing it along in a similar situation. Karin's intelligences has no baring upon her medical skills.
    * So you're saying that Sasuke has so much chakra that summoning a boss summon is only a faction of that amount? And no, that's not true. What we know is that it cost alot for Naruto to summon a boss summon, but that's clearly unique to him because obviously the other characters who have summoned a boss summon aren't throwing out chakra amounts equal to a Bijuu's tail.
    * Please show where such a thing was shown. Sakura did less in her battle with Sasori then Tsunade did against Kabuto, so I'm failing to see where I somehow displayed Tsunade's limits as inferior.
    * Um, yeah they are. The only difference is that Tsunade usually has a few more marks in addition to the expanded diamond. And which, as I repeatedly stated, works in the context of her gaining it. If she actually using it, then it should have had a different appearance or not been there at all, which is how it has always worked before.
    * It's still Katsuya doing the healing, as we were told. They are merely giving her chakra to facilitate that power. And no, we saw a small cut on the cheek heal quickly. That is far from claiming the entire army was healed instantaneously and completely, especially since they were still being healed well after that point. It's reasonable when you take into account what actually happen, as oppose to believing she instantly healed the entire army.
    * She did need to heal immediately. She was bleeding out, and Shizune made it clear that opening the seal was a last course type of deal. And her speech didn't come until after she had healed herself.
    * Konan was stabbed in the back and bleeding from the mouth, like Tsunade, which was the whole reason I brought her up. If that's a lesser wound...
    * Sasuke never "faded out of consciousness", he was still plenty active and mobile.
    * Um, what exactly is the difference then? Feeling chakra is literally what sensors do. The sole sensor who has been shown capable of more then that has been Karin, and she does it all through a specific technique.
    * Exactly what was "made up" about what I said? Capturing Sasuke does factor in, because this all began over your belief that Orochimaru could give chakra to others, thereby bring up the question of why he didn't go after Sasuke with Kabuto instead of sending the Sound Four, given that he was in a major rush to get Sasuke's body. There isn't any explanation other then he doesn't have such an ability, thus the reason it has never actually been mentioned or outright shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This has gone beyond ridiculous. I've pretty much pointed to everything that would suggest otherwise, yet you're apparently sticking to the baseless claim that Sakon is 'better than Jounin'. I'm not sure if there's a point to this anymore.
    * Except you haven't shown anything. I've ask and ask for this so-called evidence from the series that shows what you have claimed, yet you only come back with opinions. Now I had no trouble acknowledging I was wrong to claim a general statement involving every jounin, but you have yet to prove the actual idea is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You reference Part 1 and Part 2, not a single instance in Part 2. And it wasn't stated, but using its performance in Part 1 and Part 2 we can make a comparison.
    * I have mentioned the same instance in Part 2 numerous times. The comparison holds that Gaara's sand was just as fast in Part One as Part Two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm pretty sure the manga made it clear that Gaara's sand wasn't keeping up. The best it could do was hold off weighted Lee. We've seen references to Jokey Boy's speed, and the Mizukage's performance. I'm pretty sure Madara avoiding Gaara's sand doesn't make the point you're trying to make. Kabuto hit her twice in one move while she was exhausted, and had to use debris as cover to do it, that's not overwhelming someone with speed. And once again, where is this requirement that she go off on a rampage to start this battle off, she was pissed off. So Deidara acknowledging Sasuke's speed is him being overwhelmed by it? Those seem like two different things. So Kakashi acknowledging skills is somehow indicative of him having equal speed to Haku without the mirrors, despite evidence to the contrary. And once again, if we want to go the databook stats route, Tsunade and Sasuke's speed are pretty much the same, so he isn't blitzing anyone. Try some consistency, in the very same paragraph that you're arguing that even with the same stats Sasuke speed was far beyond Deidara's, you're going with the claim that the databook stats make it clear that Kakashi and Haku had the same speed. So Sasuke is going to use his weak katons to try to distract her, I don't imagine she'd be worried.
    * "Nearly keeping up". Gaara's sand was slower, but it wasn't that much slower. It could still react to them, simply couldn't actually catch or block them.
    * What references are there placing Jokey Boi's speed above any other speedster? And that should have been Muu, not Onoki. Madara avoiding Gaara's sand does show the point I made, that Madara's speed was above even the speedsters, and therefore not a fitting example.
    * Again, Tsunade was that way because of her own actions. You keep mentioning that as if it's some sort of extenuating circumstance that won't be a factor here, and it's not. As been mentioned, the boys have the means to make her waste punches and therefore end up in the exact same state, if not worst. And considering that the only reason Tsunade wasn't killed was because Kabuto was trying to take her alive, the fact that he could have ended things does make that overpowering.
    * Deidara, who was stated to have the same speed as Sasuke, fount his speed too fast.
    * Kakashi acknowledged Haku's skills as good as him well before the display with the mirrors. What exactly is the evidence to the contrary?
    * Except Sasuke is, as I have showed with Kabuto, who also had the same speed as Tsunade and was able to hit and avoid her hits with little trouble. We even have an example of Kabuto tricking Tsunade and then coming straight at her with an attack, with her unable to block or counter, the exact same thing I have been claiming Sasuke and Naruto would be doing to actually score hits on her. And that's not even factoring in Sasuke's max speed, which is considered on par with Lee ad Haku, putting it above that of Tsunade's.
    * The "consistency" is that while we are actually told that Sasuke's speed is faster by Deidara himself, no such thing is done in the situation with Kakashi against Haku. We have both Kakashi and Zabuza speaking about how Haku's skills are better then theirs, so if anything, I should be presuming that Haku is even faster then them instead of equal.
    * Her not worrying about the fire itself doesn't stop them from being distractions for things to actually worry about, like explosive notes and their signature techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm pointing to tactics because you seem to operate under the assumption that Tsunade is going to run around punching air and disregard her opponents. Water clones aren't close to the real thing, and his movement was limited by the fact that he was containing Kakashi, if he wasn't, the plan wouldn't have worked. That wasn't what I was referencing, and I haven't disputed that Naruto can listen to Sasuke, I've disputed it being a sure thing given the fact that he's also done otherwise. I'm not sure what the point of this bit about Tsunade is, it seems to be pretty questionable logic. If someone's attacking from one direction, what would stop an opponent from just fleeing in the opposite one. You were talking about two techniques, it was way beyond that as soon as I made it clear that Temari was the best wind user available from pretty much an entire division. And we know what the other wind techniques did, they failed. And I've already pointed out that the only justification for that approach was because it targeted a weakness, and I've also pointed out that his body is pretty strong with or without his cloak. The point of Kamatari was the slicing, the things floats around with a sickle. I'm pretty sure there wouldn't have been any purpose in swinging the fan other than to create the wind.
    * I'm assuming that Tsunade will attempt to punch them and they will dodge, and that the two of them whispering while clones distract her or just coming up with a plan without a discussion will allow them to act without her knowing what they are up to.
    * A water clone is close to the real person, simply only having a tenth of the power. That doesn't mean it can't fight, as we have been shown several times. Considering the plan was only in play because of that situation, I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
    * When Sasuke is around, Naruto tends to make less mistakes, as I said. It may not be a sure thing, but given what has been shown, it is more then likely.
    * You claimed that Tsunade was close enough to Kabuto that she was capable of punching at him, which means being pretty close, and I pointed out that if such was the case, then she could have aimed for Orochimaru too. And if she was following them, then they wouldn't have been capable of fleeing in the opposite direction.
    * With Naruto being even better, which was the point. No matter how good Temari was, she was suppose to be below Naruto in that regard, making her average compared to him. And what other wind techniques? Temari and Naruto were the only ones throwing out wind techniques at him.
    * And as I said, the only thing weak against wind is lightning techniques, supporting the idea that it was all about his cloak. But you have nothing to support that claim. All of his defensive feats were done with the cloak active, except when against Temari who had no trouble causing damage to his body. Meanwhile, we have the cloak blocking not only the strongest wind technique, but a Bijuu Blast too. So exactly why should his defensive feats be granted to his body when none as such were shown?
    * Temari swung to fan to summon Kamatari, there was no swinging after that but the wind that took down Tayuya didn't come until afterwards. And wind techniques themselves slice, so again, what would be the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You keep on mentioning it, but haven't given anything that suggests that its the case. We've had this discussion about qualifying what her blow was, I don't see the point in repeating it. Minato references Kakashi's speed, the technique's thrust is as fast as its user. I've already pointed out that I was referencing charge. Faster attack than what? And a distraction used with Chidori is pretty pointless, the technique is extremely loud and obvious. And Kabuto didn't turn away, he might not have been on top of things, but she attacked from right in front of him. And Oro wasn't just standing around, he was raving at Tsunade for constantly thwarting his attempts to finish Naruto. And he was most definitely paying attention to her, and he still got hit in the face. Several images isn't several moves, three images of someone moving a metre away isn't multiple moves. And I'm certain you've completely lost your mind with this 30 second/one minute nonsense. This started when you said she'd be incapable of avoiding a simultaneous attack from the both of them, which she can. If she wants she can take some risk, tank the attacks and take out one or both of the boys. I was unaware than she ran away from Kabuto, and yes, destroying the surrounding area would definitely screw up Sasuke's chidori attempt and would slow down Naruto's.
    * What suggests it is that they are the same thing, with CS2 simply being the advanced of CS1. What reason is there to believe they work under difference mechanics?
    * Except here we're talking about something different, whether her potential counterattack will mean anything, as oppose to whether or not it can be considered a blow.
    * Alright, so what, given all the praise Sasuke has had for his speed and the characters it has been compared to, would change what we have been told about it? The change is apart of the technique, as shown. Faster then Kabuto running straight at her with some medical attack. It doesn't matter how loud it is, the sheer speed of it ensures it hits regardless.
    * Kabuto had his eyes closed and turn away.
    * ... So he was raving at her while standing there. Point is still the same. And he suffered no damage from that hit, which I have mentioned.
    * Yeah it is, you are literally seeing several actions being done. Running from a couple of yards away and around someone would take at least 30 seconds.
    * How can she when she could barely avoid Kabuto, who at best was just as fast as them? If she couldn't avoid one person, there's even less chance she would be able to avoid two similar people.
    * Except the manga shows differently, that it wouldn't be easy for her to simply tank their attack, much less take them out. Especially the Rasengan, which upon contact would blow her away from Naruto.
    * We literally saw Kabuto run straight at her with an attack and she couldn't even block it. And no, destroying the surrounding area would have no effect on either of the boys unless they were somewhat close and even then it wouldn't prevent them from finishing the attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    But you attempted to use the showing he had against Oro as some indicator of the threat Naruto posed in Part 1, so I made certain to discourage such notions.
    * All I said was that even Orochimaru was cautious of Naruto using the Kyuubi's chakra. Your attempt doesn't exactly change that, it does the opposite. If a four-tail Bijuu Blast can kill even someone like Orochimaru, exactly what reason is there to believe that a one-tail Bijuu Blast isn't gonna be painful for even Tsunade to take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm pretty sure if you go back up again and check what you earlier claimed I said that I disagreed with is different what you're saying here, again. Yet, it is an example, you constantly saying it doesn't fit your thinking would suggest that you should probably alter your thinking. You realise that when I say process, and I've said process over and over again, I included everything that went on in his seal. A page and a panel, during which Kurama had time to say a few words, and Naruto got wrapped up by some dark chakra, that's more than a moment, that is at the very least, a few moments. And once again the Neji example, and a page and a panel including comments from Kurama is longer than a moment. Less chakra means they get exhausted faster, they've less techniques available to them, and fewer cracks at those techniques. That was after a battle, I'd imagine that would cause some problems, add that to the issues with the CS2 itself, and that doesn't day anything about his condition after his release from his box. Once again, if you can show me where I laid out something different from what you put forward, I'd be happy to accept.
    * What exactly is different? I basically summed up your claim as "Naruto can't get the Kyuubi's chakra when he wants it" and showed several of your own links claiming it takes time and effort for him.
    * Why should I alter my thinking when I'm basing my thinking on what was actually shown in the manga? I am literally using the two other times Naruto ask for chakra to show that example doesn't fit.
    * No, I didn't realize that, because that makes no sense. Why would you count a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with getting the chakra and won't be a factor again? Considering Naruto does no have to learn about the Kyuubi and go directly to visit it again to ask for chakra, there isn't any reason that any of that would count when talking about how long it takes for Naruto to ask for and get the chakra. Also, a few words and getting wrapped in the chakra is a moment. I'm not seeing how you can considering it more then that.
    * No, a page and panel is not longer then a moment. That would be like me claiming that the time it took for Ee to shunshin to Sasuke was longer then a moment, which clearly is not true. Or better yet, Tsunade opening her seal and healing takes longer then a moment. I guess that means there will be plenty of time to stop her from doing that, right? And I spoke about the Gaara example along with the Gamabunta example.
    * When has less chakra meant they get exhausted faster? Naruto's FRS training would disagree with you on that. And as mentioned before, the only ninjutsu they have for battle is the Rasengan. Part One Naruto was mainly a taijutsu fighter, with only his clones and the Rasengan for a fight.
    * It ties directly to his previous state. We were told his condition upon entering the container and there isn't any reason to believe it wasn't as stated.
    * I literally already showed you this very page:
    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Where in Part 1 have we seen Naruto make a thousand clones with Rasengans, where?
    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Not based on the trap you linked to. Regular taijutsu from Sasuke took out clones, Tsunade who's naturally stronger than Sasuke shouldn't have any problem. The Sharingan is clearly worth far more than the cost to the user, and Chidori is his signature technique, those combined with the summonings are far more. And I find it funny that you're attempting to dismiss the Sharingan and Chidori when they're pretty much the entire basis of your argument for Sasuke being able to do something to Tsunade. I think everything would show that Oro was more serious against Jiraiya. And I've little clue what you're trying to say about me having it both ways. Have I ever suggested that his condition didn't hinder him?
    * How so? The trap comes at Kakashi from the front, and there aren't any trees near that direction. They are quite a distances away from him.
    * Even then, they didn't pop instantly. And Tsunade's strength is from her chakra. If she was naturally so string, then she would have done more damage to Kabuto and Orochimaru.
    * Not at that point in the manga. And three more things is not something that can be called "far" more. I'm not dismissing anything, I'm simply disproving your claim that they did a whole bunch more stuff against others then they did against Sasuke. And really, even given what we know and his state? Not to mention that as said, he did attack Sasuke like he did Jiraiya. As for my comment, it goes back to your previous claims about Orochimaru being perfectly capable of "molding chakra" and using his techniques. So you can't now bring up his condition as an excuse for his performance against the Sannins. I mean, it's one thing to factor in his true form and Yamato technique, neither of which required anything but his chakra, but it's another to argue about him still having his techniques available and then try to use his condition as a reason why he didn't show said techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And yet something changed in this arc to suggest otherwise. You would've thought that her almost dying after the attack on Konoha would've sorted that out, or just logic. You know what's funny? If you go back to the beginning of this thread you're declaring that Minato shows the value of speed, what changed? That doesn't make any sense. If you'd said that some of these feats aren't enough to suggest that she'd be able to take on these two, maybe, but you've attempted to completely deny that they can be used as indicators of speed entirely. Naruto in pain. His general approach when he's in that form. How did Sasuke pop up again, I'm pretty sure that I was addressing the claim about Tsunade being unable to handle one-tail Naruto. I'd qualify Tsuande's attacks as very destructive. He was just above the water, and was pushed down through it. The first link doesn't show much, and the second is of Bijuu-mode, which I'm not even going to imagine is something you're going to attempt to draw an actual comparison to. A weaker Shinra Tensei, much, much, much, much, much weaker, more like a gust on a windy day, less like being hit by a train.
    * Um, yeah, Tsunade being cut in half and needing Karin to heal her. I'm pretty sure I mentioned this was the reason previously. She was in a coma after Pain's Invasion because she used up the chakra in her seal, something we already knew would happen from the first time she used her seal. The cost of her using her seal was already well known, to the point that it was employed in this battle thread multiple times.
    * I'm really not sure what's hard to understand about Minato only being fast with Hiraishin. I'm pretty sure I have mentioned each time that it's outside of that that I consider him average in speed.
    * Please show me where I ever claimed that Tsunade had above average speed, or was pretty fast, or such. Her being capable of taking on someone with no regular speed feats doesn't mean in the slightest that she would be capable of taking on someone with actual speed feats.
    * And I showed you a link showing differently, with no clones in pain. So don't see what would make your link more reasonable then mine's. What "general approach"? I show Naruto thinking and reasoning just like normal with his one-tail cloak, where have we seen enough examples differently for a general claim to be made? Because Naruto's not alone here. If normal skin can endure her punch, then a shield of chakra can too. Sasuke was lying on the water, not jumping as you said, and Tsunade would be in a similar position, standing on the water. The first link shows him breaking Haku's mirrors and cracking the ground with just a roar, mirrors strong enough that they could endure a fire attack. And um, it's Naruto in his cloaked form. The point is that the blast has been shown having force behind it, as oppose to being some "gust of wind". If the power was enough with just the Kyuubi's chakra that Haku wasn't capable of pushing back, it's gonna be even more when Naruto employs it inside the cloak.

  10. #265
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    * Where exactly did I do that? I disagreed with the idea that he was worn out, and instead preferred tired. You said they were similar and I proceeded to point out the difference.
    * You tired to use the comparison with Hashirama, who the manga has stated has chakra equal to the complete Kyuubi. So said comparison doesn't work, because there is a far obvious difference between a regular person and someone comparable to a Bijuu then two regular people.
    * Except Tsunade hasn't, which has been part of the basis of my argument. We were just literally shown her in a desperate situation incapable of healing herself, to the point of requiring someone else to heal her. But it does, since it goes against your argument of them being able to heal themselves in such situations. If we got acknowledgement that low life force, pretty much meaning near death, hinders the ability for her to heal along, then there isn't any reason to assume she would have been capable of doing it along in a similar situation. Karin's intelligences has no baring upon her medical skills.
    * So you're saying that Sasuke has so much chakra that summoning a boss summon is only a faction of that amount? And no, that's not true. What we know is that it cost alot for Naruto to summon a boss summon, but that's clearly unique to him because obviously the other characters who have summoned a boss summon aren't throwing out chakra amounts equal to a Bijuu's tail.
    * Please show where such a thing was shown. Sakura did less in her battle with Sasori then Tsunade did against Kabuto, so I'm failing to see where I somehow displayed Tsunade's limits as inferior.
    * Um, yeah they are. The only difference is that Tsunade usually has a few more marks in addition to the expanded diamond. And which, as I repeatedly stated, works in the context of her gaining it. If she actually using it, then it should have had a different appearance or not been there at all, which is how it has always worked before.
    * It's still Katsuya doing the healing, as we were told. They are merely giving her chakra to facilitate that power. And no, we saw a small cut on the cheek heal quickly. That is far from claiming the entire army was healed instantaneously and completely, especially since they were still being healed well after that point. It's reasonable when you take into account what actually happen, as oppose to believing she instantly healed the entire army.
    * She did need to heal immediately. She was bleeding out, and Shizune made it clear that opening the seal was a last course type of deal. And her speech didn't come until after she had healed herself.
    * Konan was stabbed in the back and bleeding from the mouth, like Tsunade, which was the whole reason I brought her up. If that's a lesser wound...
    * Sasuke never "faded out of consciousness", he was still plenty active and mobile.
    * Um, what exactly is the difference then? Feeling chakra is literally what sensors do. The sole sensor who has been shown capable of more then that has been Karin, and she does it all through a specific technique.
    * Exactly what was "made up" about what I said? Capturing Sasuke does factor in, because this all began over your belief that Orochimaru could give chakra to others, thereby bring up the question of why he didn't go after Sasuke with Kabuto instead of sending the Sound Four, given that he was in a major rush to get Sasuke's body. There isn't any explanation other then he doesn't have such an ability, thus the reason it has never actually been mentioned or outright shown.
    When you followed with; 'We knew...would wear a person out. Part 2 Sasuke isn't a regular person, and admittedly the difference was overstated, but it was simply to show that for two different individuals can mean wildly different volumes of chakra. Against Oro would seem to be the case. That's one situation, and even in that situation she was able help others before losing consciousness. Karin doesn't have an medical 'skills' to speak of, she's a very healthy snack. Yes, that's what I'm saying. The cost of a boss summon isn't unique to Naruto, Jiraiya could summon a massive swamp, but only managed a tiny toad, that would suggest that boss summons take up some serious chakra. You stated that Tsunade could only use 6 punches, and I believe it was a healing, before she would be forced to use her seal, yet Sakura healed twice and used her powered punches at least six times (Seal, Hiruko, Iron Sand, Sandaime, Random Puppet, Sasori, and that limits her to taking a swing at just one of Sasori's one hundred puppets) during that battle. So yes, that is in essence you suggesting that Sakura's stamina is superior to Tsunade's without her seal. What you linked to didn't look like a diamond, it doesn't look anything like Tsunade's seal's appearance prior to that occasion. Did you read your link; she says I can use my power according to Tsunade's, in other words, her healing relies on Tsunade's Byakugo power. It was slow because Tsunade was so weakened. When Sakura used her remote healing, she healed far greater numbers and in a matter of moments because she was tapping into Sakura's stocked seal. She decided to give a speech, that doesn't seem immediate to me, and she used the seal because she wanted to be in working order quickly so she could face Oro. Yes, getting stabbed once is less serious than getting stabbed and subsequently slashed. Active and mobile, he was dragged away by Karin and could barely get himself to bite her. Everyone can feel strong chakra, sensors simply operate on another level where they can differentiate and sense over greater distances. Can you not read your own posts to find out? However, for your sake; 'You claimed that Orochimaru didn't showcase this ability to give his chakra to others before because he didn't want to be dependent on others' and 'You called it asinine to believe that Orochimaru would want to depend on someone else' are two different claims. He was focused on getting his own limbs back, which is something he personally needed to do, and left Sasuke to his subordinates, because he didn't need to do it himself.

    Quote Quote:
    * Except you haven't shown anything. I've ask and ask for this so-called evidence from the series that shows what you have claimed, yet you only come back with opinions. Now I had no trouble acknowledging I was wrong to claim a general statement involving every jounin, but you have yet to prove the actual idea is wrong.
    I've shown that the basis of your claim was flawed at best; Sakon outnumbered alongside the other Sounds (fact) two Special Jounin (a rank lower than Jounin, confirmed as such by the databook and supported by the manga) who were in weakened condition (fact). That this fails any reasonable standard as evidence for the claim that Sakon is 'better than Jounin' is reality. I've also pointed to the fact that beyond this one battle, they've faced two other opponents; two genin, one they were unable to finish off, and they lost to the other. So as it stands, they faced a difficult battle against two outnumbered and weakened Tokubetsu Jounin and prevailed, faced a difficult battle with a genin and prevailed to a certain extent, and faced another genin who defeated them. These don't add up to being 'better than Jounin', not even close. Asking for someone to provide evidence that every Jounin would defeat them is pointless, I can no more do that than provide evidence that every Jounin would defeat Part 1 Sakura, and that would in no way validate an argument that she was better than Jounin. The statement is the expression of the idea, if the statement's wrong, the idea probably is too.

    Quote Quote:
    * I have mentioned the same instance in Part 2 numerous times. The comparison holds that Gaara's sand was just as fast in Part One as Part Two.
    * "Nearly keeping up". Gaara's sand was slower, but it wasn't that much slower. It could still react to them, simply couldn't actually catch or block them.
    * What references are there placing Jokey Boi's speed above any other speedster? And that should have been Muu, not Onoki. Madara avoiding Gaara's sand does show the point I made, that Madara's speed was above even the speedsters, and therefore not a fitting example.
    I can't be bothered going on about Gaara's sand. You think his sand is as fast during Part 2 as it was during Part 1, I think it got faster. At this point, I don't think it matters that much either way.

    Quote Quote:
    * Again, Tsunade was that way because of her own actions. You keep mentioning that as if it's some sort of extenuating circumstance that won't be a factor here, and it's not. As been mentioned, the boys have the means to make her waste punches and therefore end up in the exact same state, if not worst. And considering that the only reason Tsunade wasn't killed was because Kabuto was trying to take her alive, the fact that he could have ended things does make that overpowering.
    * Deidara, who was stated to have the same speed as Sasuke, fount his speed too fast.
    * Kakashi acknowledged Haku's skills as good as him well before the display with the mirrors. What exactly is the evidence to the contrary?
    * Except Sasuke is, as I have showed with Kabuto, who also had the same speed as Tsunade and was able to hit and avoid her hits with little trouble. We even have an example of Kabuto tricking Tsunade and then coming straight at her with an attack, with her unable to block or counter, the exact same thing I have been claiming Sasuke and Naruto would be doing to actually score hits on her. And that's not even factoring in Sasuke's max speed, which is considered on par with Lee ad Haku, putting it above that of Tsunade's.
    * The "consistency" is that while we are actually told that Sasuke's speed is faster by Deidara himself, no such thing is done in the situation with Kakashi against Haku. We have both Kakashi and Zabuza speaking about how Haku's skills are better then theirs, so if anything, I should be presuming that Haku is even faster then them instead of equal.
    * Her not worrying about the fire itself doesn't stop them from being distractions for things to actually worry about, like explosive notes and their signature techniques.
    It isn't an extenuating circumstance, it's something that's pretty irrelevant. Using her speed when she's exhausted as some kind of standard is pretty ridiculous, yes it was her fault, you could say Sasuke's slower speed after running around was his fault, that doesn't mean that I use that speed as the speed I expect from him in any given battle. He didn't find it too fast because he dealt with it, it wasn't Sasuke's speed that brought Deidara down. I was unaware the an acknowledgment of someone's skills is an indicator of a comparison of speed. Yes, Kabuto was able to land a hit on a pretty worn out Tsunade, and he tricked her and hit her while she was injured, and then she hit him. I'm very much aware of what happened in that battle. And once again, skills aren't speed. And once again, if you're going to rely on the databook stats, accept them and move on, don't point at them when they fit and try to ignore them otherwise. Ok, so Tsunade has to worry about Sasuke wasting chakra with random katons, she's got it.


    Quote Quote:
    * I'm assuming that Tsunade will attempt to punch them and they will dodge, and that the two of them whispering while clones distract her or just coming up with a plan without a discussion will allow them to act without her knowing what they are up to.
    * A water clone is close to the real person, simply only having a tenth of the power. That doesn't mean it can't fight, as we have been shown several times. Considering the plan was only in play because of that situation, I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
    * When Sasuke is around, Naruto tends to make less mistakes, as I said. It may not be a sure thing, but given what has been shown, it is more then likely.
    * You claimed that Tsunade was close enough to Kabuto that she was capable of punching at him, which means being pretty close, and I pointed out that if such was the case, then she could have aimed for Orochimaru too. And if she was following them, then they wouldn't have been capable of fleeing in the opposite direction.
    And I'm assuming that if Tsunade doesn't hit them, she's going to adjust. And thus my point, the plan was effective because of a specific situation, one where their target had the use of one hand and was limited to a confined area of movement. I'd accept that, I was just pointing out that even with Sasuke near, Naruto will sometimes do as he pleases. I'm seriously missing your logic on this one; how does following someone inhibit someone from fleeing in the opposite direction?

    *
    Quote Quote:
    With Naruto being even better, which was the point. No matter how good Temari was, she was suppose to be below Naruto in that regard, making her average compared to him. And what other wind techniques? Temari and Naruto were the only ones throwing out wind techniques at him.
    * And as I said, the only thing weak against wind is lightning techniques, supporting the idea that it was all about his cloak. But you have nothing to support that claim. All of his defensive feats were done with the cloak active, except when against Temari who had no trouble causing damage to his body. Meanwhile, we have the cloak blocking not only the strongest wind technique, but a Bijuu Blast too. So exactly why should his defensive feats be granted to his body when none as such were shown?
    * Temari swung to fan to summon Kamatari, there was no swinging after that but the wind that took down Tayuya didn't come until afterwards. And wind techniques themselves slice, so again, what would be the point.
    This is another one that's taken on a life of its own. Let me just say this, for general purposes, if you're comparing two individuals and one is superior to the other, the second isn't average. The only way you can get an individual being average when you've only two samples is if they're pretty much equal, then they'd both be average. This whole bit about the Sandaime has gone far beyond the original point, but again you believe that the teleportation technique isn't particularly dangerous and I believe that it causes potentially fatal injuries. Also, the databook confirms that Temari creates the wind for the technique and Kamatari just rides along; I'm not in a position to answer you about why that is, maybe we just needed to see a weasel.

    Quote Quote:
    * What suggests it is that they are the same thing, with CS2 simply being the advanced of CS1. What reason is there to believe they work under difference mechanics?
    * Except here we're talking about something different, whether her potential counterattack will mean anything, as oppose to whether or not it can be considered a blow.
    * Alright, so what, given all the praise Sasuke has had for his speed and the characters it has been compared to, would change what we have been told about it? The change is apart of the technique, as shown. Faster then Kabuto running straight at her with some medical attack. It doesn't matter how loud it is, the sheer speed of it ensures it hits regardless.
    * Kabuto had his eyes closed and turn away.
    * ... So he was raving at her while standing there. Point is still the same. And he suffered no damage from that hit, which I have mentioned.
    * Yeah it is, you are literally seeing several actions being done. Running from a couple of yards away and around someone would take at least 30 seconds.
    * How can she when she could barely avoid Kabuto, who at best was just as fast as them? If she couldn't avoid one person, there's even less chance she would be able to avoid two similar people.
    * Except the manga shows differently, that it wouldn't be easy for her to simply tank their attack, much less take them out. Especially the Rasengan, which upon contact would blow her away from Naruto.
    * We literally saw Kabuto run straight at her with an attack and she couldn't even block it. And no, destroying the surrounding area would have no effect on either of the boys unless they were somewhat close and even then it wouldn't prevent them from finishing the attack.
    You're saying they're the same thing, I'm not sure where the mangas said that. And you've also claimed that a one-off was enough to grant complete control of the CS1, and I'm not sure where the manga shows that. I was just showing that she had the speed and ability to react; launching a counterattack for an attack from behind while you're in the middle of the air is going to have its limits. The charge was my point, that means that an opponent is probably going to know when they're about to be attacked with his signature tech, and act appropriately. And when did Kabuto just run straight at her and hit her with medical ninjutsu? Turned away, his head is looking down a bit, and he notices her get up, but isn't fast enough to do anything about it. Running in one direction doesn't take several moves, and I know you aren't again suggesting that the Sharingan's prediction extends to 30 seconds. I doubt you can show one where it could see 10 seconds in advance. You're assuming Kabuto is slower than they are, and for about the 100th time, she was worn out by that point, and she dodged his first attack. Being blown away would depend on where Naruto hit her, and once again, if she isn't dead with the blow, she can strike back and worry about patching it up after. Where did this happen, this Kabuto running straight at her? So, destroying the are could have an effect.

    Quote Quote:
    * All I said was that even Orochimaru was cautious of Naruto using the Kyuubi's chakra. Your attempt doesn't exactly change that, it does the opposite. If a four-tail Bijuu Blast can kill even someone like Orochimaru, exactly what reason is there to believe that a one-tail Bijuu Blast isn't gonna be painful for even Tsunade to take?
    This would be meaningful if that Bijuu blast has killer Oro, instead he handled it with a smile on his face. And I haven't seen a one-tail bijuu blast to speak of.

    Quote Quote:
    * What exactly is different? I basically summed up your claim as "Naruto can't get the Kyuubi's chakra when he wants it" and showed several of your own links claiming it takes time and effort for him.
    * Why should I alter my thinking when I'm basing my thinking on what was actually shown in the manga? I am literally using the two other times Naruto ask for chakra to show that example doesn't fit.
    * No, I didn't realize that, because that makes no sense. Why would you count a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with getting the chakra and won't be a factor again? Considering Naruto does no have to learn about the Kyuubi and go directly to visit it again to ask for chakra, there isn't any reason that any of that would count when talking about how long it takes for Naruto to ask for and get the chakra. Also, a few words and getting wrapped in the chakra is a moment. I'm not seeing how you can considering it more then that.
    * No, a page and panel is not longer then a moment. That would be like me claiming that the time it took for Ee to shunshin to Sasuke was longer then a moment, which clearly is not true. Or better yet, Tsunade opening her seal and healing takes longer then a moment. I guess that means there will be plenty of time to stop her from doing that, right? And I spoke about the Gaara example along with the Gamabunta example.
    * When has less chakra meant they get exhausted faster? Naruto's FRS training would disagree with you on that. And as mentioned before, the only ninjutsu they have for battle is the Rasengan. Part One Naruto was mainly a taijutsu fighter, with only his clones and the Rasengan for a fight.
    * It ties directly to his previous state. We were told his condition upon entering the container and there isn't any reason to believe it wasn't as stated.
    * I literally already showed you this very page:
    This 'You claimed he wouldn't get the chakra when he wanted it,' suggests something very different from this ''You say several times that it would take time for Naruto to get the Kyuubi's chakra, that he can't just whip it out'; one makes it seem as though I've claimed that Naruto wouldn't get the chakra and the other, the accurate representation, suggests that I think there's a delay between his decision to make use of it and when he's able to actually use it. And completely ignoring the other, the one you first linked to to begin with. Of course it makes sense, Naruto wanted the chakra and he had to go through that process to get it. Obviously our concept differs, but if that's a moment, it only takes a moment for Tsunade to order Katsuyu to spray Gamabunta as soon as he pops up, and for Katsuyu to do just that. That Shunsin didn't have comments included, and I've already addressed the Gaara example. Well, if they have less chakra, if they utilise the same techniques, they're going to run out of chakra faster. Were we told that he'd be drained or exhausted when he got out? And I'm still not getting where the difference is, I've already shown your mention of the thousand clones prior to that.

    Quote Quote:
    * How so? The trap comes at Kakashi from the front, and there aren't any trees near that direction. They are quite a distances away from him.
    * Even then, they didn't pop instantly. And Tsunade's strength is from her chakra. If she was naturally so string, then she would have done more damage to Kabuto and Orochimaru.
    * Not at that point in the manga. And three more things is not something that can be called "far" more. I'm not dismissing anything, I'm simply disproving your claim that they did a whole bunch more stuff against others then they did against Sasuke. And really, even given what we know and his state? Not to mention that as said, he did attack Sasuke like he did Jiraiya. As for my comment, it goes back to your previous claims about Orochimaru being perfectly capable of "molding chakra" and using his techniques. So you can't now bring up his condition as an excuse for his performance against the Sannins. I mean, it's one thing to factor in his true form and Yamato technique, neither of which required anything but his chakra, but it's another to argue about him still having his techniques available and then try to use his condition as a reason why he didn't show said techniques.
    Maybe I'm seeing these differently, but aren't those bushes and trees right behind Kakashi at the start of that chapter? I'm not sure if I'm missing something here. But the damage was enough to take them out. So regular taijutsu is enough to take them out. And Tsunade's chakra amplifies her already great strength. And yet both Kakashi and Sasuke rely on it in tough battles? And does this change that they didn't utilise the best of themselves against said opponent, which was my point. I was unaware that I brought up Oro's condition as an excuse. I wasn't even factoring in those two abilities, did I even mention them? What are you talking about?

    Quote Quote:
    * Um, yeah, Tsunade being cut in half and needing Karin to heal her. I'm pretty sure I mentioned this was the reason previously. She was in a coma after Pain's Invasion because she used up the chakra in her seal, something we already knew would happen from the first time she used her seal. The cost of her using her seal was already well known, to the point that it was employed in this battle thread multiple times.
    * I'm really not sure what's hard to understand about Minato only being fast with Hiraishin. I'm pretty sure I have mentioned each time that it's outside of that that I consider him average in speed.
    * Please show me where I ever claimed that Tsunade had above average speed, or was pretty fast, or such. Her being capable of taking on someone with no regular speed feats doesn't mean in the slightest that she would be capable of taking on someone with actual speed feats.
    * And I showed you a link showing differently, with no clones in pain. So don't see what would make your link more reasonable then mine's. What "general approach"? I show Naruto thinking and reasoning just like normal with his one-tail cloak, where have we seen enough examples differently for a general claim to be made? Because Naruto's not alone here. If normal skin can endure her punch, then a shield of chakra can too. Sasuke was lying on the water, not jumping as you said, and Tsunade would be in a similar position, standing on the water. The first link shows him breaking Haku's mirrors and cracking the ground with just a roar, mirrors strong enough that they could endure a fire attack. And um, it's Naruto in his cloaked form. The point is that the blast has been shown having force behind it, as oppose to being some "gust of wind". If the power was enough with just the Kyuubi's chakra that Haku wasn't capable of pushing back, it's gonna be even more when Naruto employs it inside the cloak.
    So she couldn't heal from everything, that should've been obvious ages ago. I'm really confused about why it took this arc to realise that. I like Tsunade, and I've supported her this entire time, and I didn't believe that. But he isn't. In the Minato thread you portrayed her as having upper middle tier speed. And once again, it is about specific feats, particularly against Madara, that you used to support your claim, yet those feats here weren't simply stated to be insufficient, but you suggested that they weren't even indicative of any sort of speed. Mine's closer to his state here, what do you want me to say, Kishi forgot? His battle against Sasuke is what we have, that's the only thing we can look at. I'm pretty sure we've seen Tsunade's punch against a shield of chakra, a pretty impressive one too, Susanoo. If she can put a crack in that, I don't see Naruto's one-tail cloak helping much. I just assumed from his position that he was in the air, but if he's lying down, how is that the same as Tsunade standing in the water? Do they break? I see one crack. And I'm not sure what Sasuke's katon shows. And that form is far beyond what he's capable of her, so what does it have to do with this? And I didn't see Sasuke having any problems with the chakra Naruto was pushing out, I can't imagine Tsunade would.
    Last edited by Impossibility; March 18, 2014 at 01:18 PM.

  11. #266
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    When you followed with; 'We knew...would wear a person out. Part 2 Sasuke isn't a regular person, and admittedly the difference was overstated, but it was simply to show that for two different individuals can mean wildly different volumes of chakra. Against Oro would seem to be the case. That's one situation, and even in that situation she was able help others before losing consciousness. Karin doesn't have an medical 'skills' to speak of, she's a very healthy snack. Yes, that's what I'm saying. The cost of a boss summon isn't unique to Naruto, Jiraiya could summon a massive swamp, but only managed a tiny toad, that would suggest that boss summons take up some serious chakra. You stated that Tsunade could only use 6 punches, and I believe it was a healing, before she would be forced to use her seal, yet Sakura healed twice and used her powered punches at least six times (Seal, Hiruko, Iron Sand, Sandaime, Random Puppet, Sasori, and that limits her to taking a swing at just one of Sasori's one hundred puppets) during that battle. So yes, that is in essence you suggesting that Sakura's stamina is superior to Tsunade's without her seal. What you linked to didn't look like a diamond, it doesn't look anything like Tsunade's seal's appearance prior to that occasion. Did you read your link; she says I can use my power according to Tsunade's, in other words, her healing relies on Tsunade's Byakugo power. It was slow because Tsunade was so weakened. When Sakura used her remote healing, she healed far greater numbers and in a matter of moments because she was tapping into Sakura's stocked seal. She decided to give a speech, that doesn't seem immediate to me, and she used the seal because she wanted to be in working order quickly so she could face Oro. Yes, getting stabbed once is less serious than getting stabbed and subsequently slashed. Active and mobile, he was dragged away by Karin and could barely get himself to bite her. Everyone can feel strong chakra, sensors simply operate on another level where they can differentiate and sense over greater distances. Can you not read your own posts to find out? However, for your sake; 'You claimed that Orochimaru didn't showcase this ability to give his chakra to others before because he didn't want to be dependent on others' and 'You called it asinine to believe that Orochimaru would want to depend on someone else' are two different claims. He was focused on getting his own limbs back, which is something he personally needed to do, and left Sasuke to his subordinates, because he didn't need to do it himself.
    * That wasn't a repeated phrase and works synonymy with tired.
    * How is he not a regular person? Apart from perhaps factoring in CS (which wouldn't apply here because he didn't use it at that point), he is a regular person with no other sources of chakra apart from his own, which has never been declared far above average. So aside from the previously issue mentioned, what exactly is there that would support the idea that the two of them being low on chakra is not a reasonable comparison when there's no evidence of any major difference between their chakra amounts?
    * Against Orochimaru such was questionable, as I have pointed out. It's one situation that ties into her key ability, healing without seals, that would suggest that it's not exactly easy otherwise.
    * So you consider Sasuke to have a massive amount of chakra, yet want to argue that he wouldn't outlast Tsunade despite there only being a slight difference between Part One and Part Two? And Jiraiya's problem had nothing to do with the amount of chakra, but controlling said chakra, which is why neither of the techniques were as they should have been.
    * After breaking the seal, Hiruko, and dealing with the Sandaime Kazekage, Sakura had reached her limit. That's four punches and a healing. Against Sasori himself, that may or may not have been one, given that Sasori was in control. There wasn't anything beyond that, aside from her last healing.
    * What are you talking about? Like I said, it's just like Tsunade showed except without the extra marks around the diamond.
    * Um, yeah, how is that not "them giving her chakra to facilitate her healing" as I have said? And again, where's the evidence of Sakura healing "far greater numbers and in a matter of moments"?
    * Again, the speech came after she was healed, making that moot. And that still would have been the case had she not used the seal. Her actions were the one that escalated events like they did, Orochimaru and Jiraiya rushed to match her, not the other way around.
    * Slashed in a non-vital area...
    * Um, no. The only sensor that has been stated to have such an ability was Karin and Mito/Naruto sort-of.
    * No they aren't. They both boil down to the assumption about Orochimaru depending on another. And what? The entire reason he sent them after Sasuke was to get his arms back, and it was only because they didn't make it back that he had to settle for another host. Going after Sasuke tied directly into getting his arms back, therefore being according to you, something he would have personally needed to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I've shown that the basis of your claim was flawed at best; Sakon outnumbered alongside the other Sounds (fact) two Special Jounin (a rank lower than Jounin, confirmed as such by the databook and supported by the manga) who were in weakened condition (fact). That this fails any reasonable standard as evidence for the claim that Sakon is 'better than Jounin' is reality. I've also pointed to the fact that beyond this one battle, they've faced two other opponents; two genin, one they were unable to finish off, and they lost to the other. So as it stands, they faced a difficult battle against two outnumbered and weakened Tokubetsu Jounin and prevailed, faced a difficult battle with a genin and prevailed to a certain extent, and faced another genin who defeated them. These don't add up to being 'better than Jounin', not even close. Asking for someone to provide evidence that every Jounin would defeat them is pointless, I can no more do that than provide evidence that every Jounin would defeat Part 1 Sakura, and that would in no way validate an argument that she was better than Jounin. The statement is the expression of the idea, if the statement's wrong, the idea probably is too.
    * Except first off, you never showed that your assumption about Special Jounins were true, only providing nothing more then your own opinion of their worth. The manga itself shows differently, just as it shows that the Sound Four were enough of a threat to warrant the efforts of Jounins. That they were unable to finish off and lost to unique genin in no way disproves anything given there are numerous examples during Part One of more skilled ninjas losing to such. That only shows how unique their opponents were. And the difference between them an Sakura is that people who just fought Sakura didn't attempt to send a team of jounins against her nor was she praised and relied upon by one of the strongest villains in the series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It isn't an extenuating circumstance, it's something that's pretty irrelevant. Using her speed when she's exhausted as some kind of standard is pretty ridiculous, yes it was her fault, you could say Sasuke's slower speed after running around was his fault, that doesn't mean that I use that speed as the speed I expect from him in any given battle. He didn't find it too fast because he dealt with it, it wasn't Sasuke's speed that brought Deidara down. I was unaware the an acknowledgment of someone's skills is an indicator of a comparison of speed. Yes, Kabuto was able to land a hit on a pretty worn out Tsunade, and he tricked her and hit her while she was injured, and then she hit him. I'm very much aware of what happened in that battle. And once again, skills aren't speed. And once again, if you're going to rely on the databook stats, accept them and move on, don't point at them when they fit and try to ignore them otherwise. Ok, so Tsunade has to worry about Sasuke wasting chakra with random katons, she's got it.
    * Except the difference is you have nothing to support the idea that Tsunade got slower or was capable of being faster then showed, as is the case with Sasuke.
    * Deidara "dealt" with it by fighting at a distances, the whole reason he switched to his C2 technique.
    * Speed is a factor in skills...
    * If you are "aware", then why do you continue to argue against the claim that two people with at least the same speed would not be capable of the same?
    * Um, again, speed is a factor in them.
    * When have I ignored them? I have acknowledged it multiple times and have used the fact that the boys have similar speed to Kabuto as the proof that at the very least they would be capable of landing hits and avoiding blows against Tsunade, just like Kabuto did.
    * Wasting a little chakra to ensure Tsunade loses an arm to an explosive note or get's some major damage from the Rasengan is clearly a small price to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And I'm assuming that if Tsunade doesn't hit them, she's going to adjust. And thus my point, the plan was effective because of a specific situation, one where their target had the use of one hand and was limited to a confined area of movement. I'd accept that, I was just pointing out that even with Sasuke near, Naruto will sometimes do as he pleases. I'm seriously missing your logic on this one; how does following someone inhibit someone from fleeing in the opposite direction?
    * Which we have seen, and know the boys would be capable of handling.
    * And how does that change the original point, that the boys would be capable of creating and enacting plans right in front of her without giving her a clue?
    * But as we've seen, more often then not, Naruto will act more competent then normal.
    * How could they flee in the opposite direction when they were all originally going in the same direction and therefore she was directly in the path of said opposite direction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This is another one that's taken on a life of its own. Let me just say this, for general purposes, if you're comparing two individuals and one is superior to the other, the second isn't average. The only way you can get an individual being average when you've only two samples is if they're pretty much equal, then they'd both be average. This whole bit about the Sandaime has gone far beyond the original point, but again you believe that the teleportation technique isn't particularly dangerous and I believe that it causes potentially fatal injuries. Also, the databook confirms that Temari creates the wind for the technique and Kamatari just rides along; I'm not in a position to answer you about why that is, maybe we just needed to see a weasel.
    * If the second isn't average, then what would they be? They clearly wouldn't be below or above average compared to "the best", they would be in the middle, therefore average.
    * The point was that the Sandaime Raikage's defensive ability was from his cloak, not his body, otherwise you would have to claim that Temari's technique was more lethal then it, the FRS, and a Bijuu Blast.
    * I was not aware of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You're saying they're the same thing, I'm not sure where the mangas said that. And you've also claimed that a one-off was enough to grant complete control of the CS1, and I'm not sure where the manga shows that. I was just showing that she had the speed and ability to react; launching a counterattack for an attack from behind while you're in the middle of the air is going to have its limits. The charge was my point, that means that an opponent is probably going to know when they're about to be attacked with his signature tech, and act appropriately. And when did Kabuto just run straight at her and hit her with medical ninjutsu? Turned away, his head is looking down a bit, and he notices her get up, but isn't fast enough to do anything about it. Running in one direction doesn't take several moves, and I know you aren't again suggesting that the Sharingan's prediction extends to 30 seconds. I doubt you can show one where it could see 10 seconds in advance. You're assuming Kabuto is slower than they are, and for about the 100th time, she was worn out by that point, and she dodged his first attack. Being blown away would depend on where Naruto hit her, and once again, if she isn't dead with the blow, she can strike back and worry about patching it up after. Where did this happen, this Kabuto running straight at her? So, destroying the are could have an effect.
    * Um, perhaps in the fact that the one and two merely denote the level of the Cursed Seal...
    * After the Forest of Death, Sasuke had no problem drawing upon and using CS1 as he wanted.
    * Which is all fine and well, but if the counterattack poses no danger, then it's no better then not doing anything. As the boys have similar speed to Kabuto, that means they would be in the same position to do as he did.
    * And my point is that there isn't gonna be any time to "act appropriately". The manga has shown that the problem with the Chidori, the user not being able to react to their opponent, is solved with the Sharingan. It was a key plot point. There isn't anything in the series that supports the belief that Sasuke's Chidori is something that can be avoided easily.
    * Um, right here.
    * Aside from the noticing her get up claim, that's exactly what I've been saying.
    * Turn to the side, begin running in that direction, begin pulling arm back for punch, and extend punch: how is that not several moves?
    * No, I have been assuming they are similar in speed, although Sasuke's max speed allowing him to be faster. The entire reason I have been talking about and using Kabuto is because of that, the fact that he's their baseline. She's worn out because of her own actions, which as I have argued, will happen here just the same if not faster.
    * Unless Naruto hits her from the air downward, she'll go flying away no matter where he lands his hit. And she can't strike back after being hit unless her seal is open. The damage from the Rasengan isn't something even a tank could endure lightly, and Tsunade's not a tank without her seal.
    * Again, right here.
    * Not in stopping the boys or their attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This would be meaningful if that Bijuu blast has killer Oro, instead he handled it with a smile on his face. And I haven't seen a one-tail bijuu blast to speak of.
    * Handled it with a smile? Um, and with three huge barriers. The Bijuu Rasengan, it's exactly like a Bijuu Blast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This 'You claimed he wouldn't get the chakra when he wanted it,' suggests something very different from this ''You say several times that it would take time for Naruto to get the Kyuubi's chakra, that he can't just whip it out'; one makes it seem as though I've claimed that Naruto wouldn't get the chakra and the other, the accurate representation, suggests that I think there's a delay between his decision to make use of it and when he's able to actually use it. And completely ignoring the other, the one you first linked to to begin with. Of course it makes sense, Naruto wanted the chakra and he had to go through that process to get it. Obviously our concept differs, but if that's a moment, it only takes a moment for Tsunade to order Katsuyu to spray Gamabunta as soon as he pops up, and for Katsuyu to do just that. That Shunsin didn't have comments included, and I've already addressed the Gaara example. Well, if they have less chakra, if they utilise the same techniques, they're going to run out of chakra faster. Were we told that he'd be drained or exhausted when he got out? And I'm still not getting where the difference is, I've already shown your mention of the thousand clones prior to that.
    * Wouldn't have it when he wanted it, which is how this all began, with me claiming that if Tsunade summoned Katsuya then Naruto would summon Gamabunta and you disagreeing with that.
    * Um, no. I'm not ignoring it. I'm "ignoring" the part you claim it began at, by disagreeing that it doesn't make any sense given the other examples and Naruto drawing upon the chakra again after doing that.
    * Except that process was merely to learn about the Kyuubi and set up the exchange, something that is no longer required after that point.
    * Then please explain exactly what your concept of it is. And Gamabunta has some pretty good reflexes, enough to fight with Manda who had no trouble avoiding the acid spray without such a warning.
    * Uh? There are comments between when Ee starts the shunshin and when he arrives by Sasuke. And you addressed Naruto asking for more, which isn't the issue being brought up anymore. The issue here is that Naruto asked for it and got it in a single page.
    * Which is moot since as mentioned, Naruto's main fighting style was taijutsu. The only possible use of chakra they have is the Rasengan, and that's not something that would need repeated use. Naruto himself got exhausted taking in all their experience of a whole day? of training. The fact that the clones were capable of training at least an entire day disproves the idea of them getting easily exhausted with more of them out.
    * ... You said I said that the thousand clones would be using the Rasengan, which is not what was said. The only instants I used the word thousand was the number of clones Naruto was capable of making. I specifically only mentioned a hundred and then technically five hundred using the Rasengan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Maybe I'm seeing these differently, but aren't those bushes and trees right behind Kakashi at the start of that chapter? I'm not sure if I'm missing something here. But the damage was enough to take them out. So regular taijutsu is enough to take them out. And Tsunade's chakra amplifies her already great strength. And yet both Kakashi and Sasuke rely on it in tough battles? And does this change that they didn't utilise the best of themselves against said opponent, which was my point. I was unaware that I brought up Oro's condition as an excuse. I wasn't even factoring in those two abilities, did I even mention them? What are you talking about?
    * Um, yeah, so? The trap was in front of him, in Sasuke's direction, as the kunais came towards him. And as shown, there was quite some distances from where Kakashi was and where the trees were behind Sasuke.
    * Not instantly, meaning that they could still get one last attack in or provide the distraction the real Naruto and Sasuke need. Which as said, can't be that much given what we've seen of her damage.
    * Sasuke is a whole different story. Anyway, considering Kakashi never straight off pulled it out in battle except for the second Zabuza match, that really doesn't hurt my claim. The rest of the times, like with Orochimaru, he didn't use it. Anyway, that doesn't change the fact that it's a double-edge blade for him. And no, which doesn't change that the same can be said about other situations, such as the aforementioned Sannin fight. I never made the claim that they went all out against Sasuke, I merely disagreed that they went "easier" against him then another challenge. You just asked what I expected given his condition against the Sannins. I factored those in previously, as they were techniques he didn't need his arms to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So she couldn't heal from everything, that should've been obvious ages ago. I'm really confused about why it took this arc to realise that. I like Tsunade, and I've supported her this entire time, and I didn't believe that. But he isn't. In the Minato thread you portrayed her as having upper middle tier speed. And once again, it is about specific feats, particularly against Madara, that you used to support your claim, yet those feats here weren't simply stated to be insufficient, but you suggested that they weren't even indicative of any sort of speed. Mine's closer to his state here, what do you want me to say, Kishi forgot? His battle against Sasuke is what we have, that's the only thing we can look at. I'm pretty sure we've seen Tsunade's punch against a shield of chakra, a pretty impressive one too, Susanoo. If she can put a crack in that, I don't see Naruto's one-tail cloak helping much. I just assumed from his position that he was in the air, but if he's lying down, how is that the same as Tsunade standing in the water? Do they break? I see one crack. And I'm not sure what Sasuke's katon shows. And that form is far beyond what he's capable of her, so what does it have to do with this? And I didn't see Sasuke having any problems with the chakra Naruto was pushing out, I can't imagine Tsunade would.
    * I'm not sure why when Creation Rebirth was stated to be the "ultimate regeneration technique". There was little reason before now to assume that the claim was not true.
    * Then as asked, where has he shown any speed feats outside of Hiraishin?
    * And the boys speed reached the likes of Lee and Haku, a four, top tier speed. Any sort of speed in this situation. Where have I spoke about Tsuande's speed outside of it's relation to the boys and them handling it? The only time was in response to Madara, a guy who was literally shown playing around with them.
    * Mine's have him going through all the states, and there's another point during the training where it happens again, not to mention the examples of his non-cloak usage. Point remains there's no reason to assume that he can't use clones, especially given we know how the mechanics work. At this point in time, when the Kyuubi's chakra wasn't trying to take him over, there's no reason it would have any effect through the clones except perhaps granting them one too.
    * Because that was an unique feat... Anyway, cracking it is quite different then actually getting through. Um, because they both will be on the water, and thus have nothing to prevent them from being launched under. All the mirrors have cracks in them and they fall apart moments later, minus one that gets directly broken. That the ice was tougher then normal ice. It's still the same attack, even if it's an advanced form. What it has to do is as mentioned, showing that the roar has considerable force behind it. How exactly is this and this not having trouble? That roar means open opportunities to land multiple blows on Tsunade without her being able to stop them.

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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    * That wasn't a repeated phrase and works synonymy with tired.
    * How is he not a regular person? Apart from perhaps factoring in CS (which wouldn't apply here because he didn't use it at that point), he is a regular person with no other sources of chakra apart from his own, which has never been declared far above average. So aside from the previously issue mentioned, what exactly is there that would support the idea that the two of them being low on chakra is not a reasonable comparison when there's no evidence of any major difference between their chakra amounts?
    * Against Orochimaru such was questionable, as I have pointed out. It's one situation that ties into her key ability, healing without seals, that would suggest that it's not exactly easy otherwise.
    * So you consider Sasuke to have a massive amount of chakra, yet want to argue that he wouldn't outlast Tsunade despite there only being a slight difference between Part One and Part Two? And Jiraiya's problem had nothing to do with the amount of chakra, but controlling said chakra, which is why neither of the techniques were as they should have been.
    * After breaking the seal, Hiruko, and dealing with the Sandaime Kazekage, Sakura had reached her limit. That's four punches and a healing. Against Sasori himself, that may or may not have been one, given that Sasori was in control. There wasn't anything beyond that, aside from her last healing.
    * What are you talking about? Like I said, it's just like Tsunade showed except without the extra marks around the diamond.
    * Um, yeah, how is that not "them giving her chakra to facilitate her healing" as I have said? And again, where's the evidence of Sakura healing "far greater numbers and in a matter of moments"?
    * Again, the speech came after she was healed, making that moot. And that still would have been the case had she not used the seal. Her actions were the one that escalated events like they did, Orochimaru and Jiraiya rushed to match her, not the other way around.
    * Slashed in a non-vital area...
    * Um, no. The only sensor that has been stated to have such an ability was Karin and Mito/Naruto sort-of.
    * No they aren't. They both boil down to the assumption about Orochimaru depending on another. And what? The entire reason he sent them after Sasuke was to get his arms back, and it was only because they didn't make it back that he had to settle for another host. Going after Sasuke tied directly into getting his arms back, therefore being according to you, something he would have personally needed to do.
    Yes, you used 'wear out' immediately after criticising my choice of 'worn out', and as you just pointed out, they work synonymously. Sasuke is an Uchiha, impressive even amongst their ranks, and wields the CS; it's not like me to praise Sasuke, but he isn't regular by any stretch. You choose to question it because it doesn't quite fit with your claim. Massive isn't what I said, but he does have considerably more than most, and this is Part 2 Sasuke, we're dealing with Part 1 Sasuke. Why wouldn't her punch against Sasori count, it was a punch using her power, and the manga explicitly shows her destroying another of Sasori's 100 puppets, so one more assuming that surrounded by a punch of puppets she threw just one punch; that adds up to 6, and she healed while there was a blade in her, she failed, but she was healing. So the count stands at 6 punches, one successful healing, and one failed attempt at healing, which is more than what you suggested Tsunade would be capable of without her seal, so yes, my claim was accurate. To me, those things look different, maybe Kishi was just lazy, who knows, but that the seal could appear in different forms or different extents, suggests that she didn't have to have Tsunade's original seal appearance to utilise her own. What you suggested was that Sakura contributed only a small fraction of the chakra cost and Katsuyu handled the rest, that's not what the manga, or your link, showed. Yes, Katsuyu is the one whose body is performing the task, but it's Sakura and Tsunade who pay for it. And I've already linked to the chapter where we can see Katsuyu split up, large numbers of shinobi being aided, and shinobi commenting on the rapid fix-up. I'm pretty sure she spoke before her healing, a few times. Does that slash not cause damage, blood loss, pain; I'm not sure what's your point. Nope, Tobirama has shown said ability, and he's been qualified as a sensor, Ao another sensor, has also showed comparable abilities. They don't, just because they share similarities doesn't mean they're the same thing. The first talked about my supposed justification of why Oro hadn't shown an ability to share chakra before, something I'd never touched on. Obviously he didn't need to do it personally, Sasuke left the village with the Sound Four. With Tsunade, he had to physically be there for her to heal him, and he was necessary to convince her in the first place; that is him being necessary.

    Quote Quote:
    * Except first off, you never showed that your assumption about Special Jounins were true, only providing nothing more then your own opinion of their worth. The manga itself shows differently, just as it shows that the Sound Four were enough of a threat to warrant the efforts of Jounins. That they were unable to finish off and lost to unique genin in no way disproves anything given there are numerous examples during Part One of more skilled ninjas losing to such. That only shows how unique their opponents were. And the difference between them an Sakura is that people who just fought Sakura didn't attempt to send a team of jounins against her nor was she praised and relied upon by one of the strongest villains in the series.
    The databook agrees, and the general points of the manga; so it isn't just my opinion. The only basis you have is that Oro relied on them, ok. Oro just needs to choose his subordinates better because every single one of them lost to genin.

    Quote Quote:
    * Except the difference is you have nothing to support the idea that Tsunade got slower or was capable of being faster then showed, as is the case with Sasuke.
    * Deidara "dealt" with it by fighting at a distances, the whole reason he switched to his C2 technique.
    * Speed is a factor in skills...
    * If you are "aware", then why do you continue to argue against the claim that two people with at least the same speed would not be capable of the same?
    * Um, again, speed is a factor in them.
    * When have I ignored them? I have acknowledged it multiple times and have used the fact that the boys have similar speed to Kabuto as the proof that at the very least they would be capable of landing hits and avoiding blows against Tsunade, just like Kabuto did.
    * Wasting a little chakra to ensure Tsunade loses an arm to an explosive note or get's some major damage from the Rasengan is clearly a small price to pay.
    Logic isn't enough? So he dealt with it. Speed is one factor amongst many; Sakura is more skilled than Kiba, that doesn't mean she's faster than him. Skills aren't equivalent to speed. I was unaware that I was arguing against such a thing at any point, maybe you should check that. Yes, and I've never claimed that they would be unable to land hits or avoid blows, I just claimed that they wouldn't be able to blitz her and she would be able to land hits and avoid some of their attacks. A little chakra, Sasuke has a few of those katons in him. And how is Tsunade going to lose an arm to an explosive tag, you just throw these things in randomly for the heck of it, don't you?

    Quote Quote:
    * Which we have seen, and know the boys would be capable of handling.
    * And how does that change the original point, that the boys would be capable of creating and enacting plans right in front of her without giving her a clue?
    * But as we've seen, more often then not, Naruto will act more competent then normal.
    * How could they flee in the opposite direction when they were all originally going in the same direction and therefore she was directly in the path of said opposite direction?
    We know that? By 'we' I assume you're referencing yourself because I'm certain most people remain entirely unconvinced. I just qualified that the example you sued had very specific circumstances that were certainly not going to be replicated here. I'm honestly trying to figure out what you're saying here. What would stop them from running in the opposite direction, the manga does show them fleeing in the other direction, away from Tsunade. I seriously have no idea what you're trying to claim.

    Quote Quote:
    * If the second isn't average, then what would they be? They clearly wouldn't be below or above average compared to "the best", they would be in the middle, therefore average.
    * The point was that the Sandaime Raikage's defensive ability was from his cloak, not his body, otherwise you would have to claim that Temari's technique was more lethal then it, the FRS, and a Bijuu Blast.
    * I was not aware of that.
    Second, inferior. How can she be in the middle? I'm sure if you stopped for a second and thought about this you'd realise what you're saying doesn't make sense. If these two are the only one's being measured, Temari is below average. Let's think about it in terms of numbers, say Naruto is 100 and Temari is 50, the average is 75, Naruto is above the average and she is below. The only way Temari could be average is if Naruto had the same level, or more individuals were added for consideration. To be in the middle, you're central between two points. If there are only two points, how can one be in the middle. Seriously, just stop, breathe, and process on this one, because I'm certain you know better. The manga made explicit claims about his durability while the others attacked, the comments make that clear. And for the record, that claim wouldn't be necessary. And as I've said, this goes back to Tsunade's healing feats, and has gone so far beyond it at this point.

    Quote Quote:
    * Um, perhaps in the fact that the one and two merely denote the level of the Cursed Seal...
    * After the Forest of Death, Sasuke had no problem drawing upon and using CS1 as he wanted.
    * Which is all fine and well, but if the counterattack poses no danger, then it's no better then not doing anything. As the boys have similar speed to Kabuto, that means they would be in the same position to do as he did.
    * And my point is that there isn't gonna be any time to "act appropriately". The manga has shown that the problem with the Chidori, the user not being able to react to their opponent, is solved with the Sharingan. It was a key plot point. There isn't anything in the series that supports the belief that Sasuke's Chidori is something that can be avoided easily.
    * Um, right here.
    * Aside from the noticing her get up claim, that's exactly what I've been saying.
    * Turn to the side, begin running in that direction, begin pulling arm back for punch, and extend punch: how is that not several moves?
    * No, I have been assuming they are similar in speed, although Sasuke's max speed allowing him to be faster. The entire reason I have been talking about and using Kabuto is because of that, the fact that he's their baseline. She's worn out because of her own actions, which as I have argued, will happen here just the same if not faster.
    * Unless Naruto hits her from the air downward, she'll go flying away no matter where he lands his hit. And she can't strike back after being hit unless her seal is open. The damage from the Rasengan isn't something even a tank could endure lightly, and Tsunade's not a tank without her seal.
    * Again, right here.
    * Not in stopping the boys or their attack.
    Three and four can denote the number of tails, that doesn't mean that each tail has the same effect. I don't get your point. And I've disagreed with your claim about the CS1 from the beginning, and I haven't seen anything that supports it. No, it doesn't, it's as though you have the inability to consider circumstances when it comes to Tsunade, you seem keen enough on qualifying Sasuke, but otherwise, it's just irrelevant. That's for the user, that doesn't say anything about the target being unable to react. Itachi picked him up and threw him around with casual ease in the middle of his chidori. Wait, you're going with Tsunade injured on her knees and tricked into protecting her neck? Yeah, that's definitely indicative of what you're suggesting, seriously? The noticing part changes the scenario entirely, so? So moving forward and swinging one punch is several moves? We obviously have very different definitions. Because throwing a punch, seems like one move to me. And I'm assuming you aren't going to bother to claim that that takes 30 seconds to a minute. And you've come to that conclusion about Kabuto's speed being their baseline how? And why wouldn't she be able to respond? And what if she uses her seal, maybe she has a pocket Katsuyu, apparently they can just heal you up without any problems? Yes, they can continue with their attack, but it's unlikely to succeed.

    Quote Quote:
    He handled it, and he smiled, admittedly that might just be Oro's face, but he handled it nevertheless. And Rasengan is based off of it, but it isn't the same. We've seen the many differences between the two.

    Quote Quote:
    * Wouldn't have it when he wanted it, which is how this all began, with me claiming that if Tsunade summoned Katsuya then Naruto would summon Gamabunta and you disagreeing with that.
    * Um, no. I'm not ignoring it. I'm "ignoring" the part you claim it began at, by disagreeing that it doesn't make any sense given the other examples and Naruto drawing upon the chakra again after doing that.
    * Except that process was merely to learn about the Kyuubi and set up the exchange, something that is no longer required after that point.
    * Then please explain exactly what your concept of it is. And Gamabunta has some pretty good reflexes, enough to fight with Manda who had no trouble avoiding the acid spray without such a warning.
    * Uh? There are comments between when Ee starts the shunshin and when he arrives by Sasuke. And you addressed Naruto asking for more, which isn't the issue being brought up anymore. The issue here is that Naruto asked for it and got it in a single page.
    * Which is moot since as mentioned, Naruto's main fighting style was taijutsu. The only possible use of chakra they have is the Rasengan, and that's not something that would need repeated use. Naruto himself got exhausted taking in all their experience of a whole day? of training. The fact that the clones were capable of training at least an entire day disproves the idea of them getting easily exhausted with more of them out.
    * ... You said I said that the thousand clones would be using the Rasengan, which is not what was said. The only instants I used the word thousand was the number of clones Naruto was capable of making. I specifically only mentioned a hundred and then technically five hundred using the Rasengan.
    Is that what I disagreed with? I'm absolutely certain I've claimed there was likely to be a delay that would allow Tsunade to take the advantage. I didn't say he couldn't get Gamabunta. So, no. The fact that we even discussed Gama and Katsuyu's abilities would make it clear that I didn't disregard Bunta. The other examples, two, one that would seem to counter your claim and the other under circumstance that I've qualified over and over. That might be the case, but it was a part of the process. A moment is a second, maybe two, in the context of battle. Yes, he fought Manda, but he was expecting an attack. If Katsuyu is already out before he's summoned, she has the initiative. A moment is more than enough for Katsuyu to spray acid. Those comments happened away from the battle after A had avoided Amaterasu. And to me it makes a difference, he'd already accessed the chakra at that point. That's Part 2 Naruto. Once again, you admit to bringing up the thousand clones and then using Rasengan with said clones, I simply repeated that.

    Quote Quote:
    * Um, yeah, so? The trap was in front of him, in Sasuke's direction, as the kunais came towards him. And as shown, there was quite some distances from where Kakashi was and where the trees were behind Sasuke.
    * Not instantly, meaning that they could still get one last attack in or provide the distraction the real Naruto and Sasuke need. Which as said, can't be that much given what we've seen of her damage.
    * Sasuke is a whole different story. Anyway, considering Kakashi never straight off pulled it out in battle except for the second Zabuza match, that really doesn't hurt my claim. The rest of the times, like with Orochimaru, he didn't use it. Anyway, that doesn't change the fact that it's a double-edge blade for him. And no, which doesn't change that the same can be said about other situations, such as the aforementioned Sannin fight. I never made the claim that they went all out against Sasuke, I merely disagreed that they went "easier" against him then another challenge. You just asked what I expected given his condition against the Sannins. I factored those in previously, as they were techniques he didn't need his arms to use.
    Seriously? Your link shows the bushes for the trap, there's a panel just for it. And from what we've seen it'd take a lot less damage to take out a clone. I imagine he is. But, he pulled it out. Yes, it has its costs, but it's benefits outweigh those. Yes, Oro didn't show his best against the Sannin, but that doesn't change that he was tougher than against Sasuke. They did go easier. Yes, I did, that was to make the point that Oro couldn't have been expected to do more on the purely ninjutsu front when he wasn't exactly in a position to do as such at the time, and it also highlighted that Oro's performance against the Sannin was more impressive than against Sasuke, and that was without his arms, so he obviously wasn't trying against Sasuke.

    Quote Quote:
    * I'm not sure why when Creation Rebirth was stated to be the "ultimate regeneration technique". There was little reason before now to assume that the claim was not true.
    * Then as asked, where has he shown any speed feats outside of Hiraishin?
    * And the boys speed reached the likes of Lee and Haku, a four, top tier speed. Any sort of speed in this situation. Where have I spoke about Tsuande's speed outside of it's relation to the boys and them handling it? The only time was in response to Madara, a guy who was literally shown playing around with them.
    * Mine's have him going through all the states, and there's another point during the training where it happens again, not to mention the examples of his non-cloak usage. Point remains there's no reason to assume that he can't use clones, especially given we know how the mechanics work. At this point in time, when the Kyuubi's chakra wasn't trying to take him over, there's no reason it would have any effect through the clones except perhaps granting them one too.
    * Because that was an unique feat... Anyway, cracking it is quite different then actually getting through. Um, because they both will be on the water, and thus have nothing to prevent them from being launched under. All the mirrors have cracks in them and they fall apart moments later, minus one that gets directly broken. That the ice was tougher then normal ice. It's still the same attack, even if it's an advanced form. What it has to do is as mentioned, showing that the roar has considerable force behind it. How exactly is this and this not having trouble? That roar means open opportunities to land multiple blows on Tsunade without her being able to stop them.
    Being the ultimate regeneration technique just means it's the best, it doesn't mean you should assume that the user is immortal. Against Madara, failed miserably, but it was a speed feat, and we do have Tobirama's comments, although even I'd admit that I think Tobirama might've oversold him. Yet, we've seen it have that effect, why, I don't know, but it did. It might just be that later on in his training he had greater control over the chakra, or his body had adjusted to it, I don't know. Maybe Kishi just forgot. So if she was able to crack what is arguable the strongest chakra shield we've seen, why would she have any problem with one-tailed Naruto's? Her chakra, the same thing keeping her on top of the water? It was tougher than normal ice, that was pretty obvious. An advanced form, you mean with tons more chakra behind it? That's like using an example of one of Naruto's bijuu-mode oodama rasengans as an example of regular old rasengan's ability. That's just Sasuke getting thrown around, I was talking about the chakra pressure you referenced with Haku. If the roar throws her under water or away from him, how is he landing multiple blows?
    Last edited by Impossibility; March 24, 2014 at 09:29 PM.

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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, you used 'wear out' immediately after criticising my choice of 'worn out', and as you just pointed out, they work synonymously. Sasuke is an Uchiha, impressive even amongst their ranks, and wields the CS; it's not like me to praise Sasuke, but he isn't regular by any stretch. You choose to question it because it doesn't quite fit with your claim. Massive isn't what I said, but he does have considerably more than most, and this is Part 2 Sasuke, we're dealing with Part 1 Sasuke. Why wouldn't her punch against Sasori count, it was a punch using her power, and the manga explicitly shows her destroying another of Sasori's 100 puppets, so one more assuming that surrounded by a punch of puppets she threw just one punch; that adds up to 6, and she healed while there was a blade in her, she failed, but she was healing. So the count stands at 6 punches, one successful healing, and one failed attempt at healing, which is more than what you suggested Tsunade would be capable of without her seal, so yes, my claim was accurate. To me, those things look different, maybe Kishi was just lazy, who knows, but that the seal could appear in different forms or different extents, suggests that she didn't have to have Tsunade's original seal appearance to utilise her own. What you suggested was that Sakura contributed only a small fraction of the chakra cost and Katsuyu handled the rest, that's not what the manga, or your link, showed. Yes, Katsuyu is the one whose body is performing the task, but it's Sakura and Tsunade who pay for it. And I've already linked to the chapter where we can see Katsuyu split up, large numbers of shinobi being aided, and shinobi commenting on the rapid fix-up. I'm pretty sure she spoke before her healing, a few times. Does that slash not cause damage, blood loss, pain; I'm not sure what's your point. Nope, Tobirama has shown said ability, and he's been qualified as a sensor, Ao another sensor, has also showed comparable abilities. They don't, just because they share similarities doesn't mean they're the same thing. The first talked about my supposed justification of why Oro hadn't shown an ability to share chakra before, something I'd never touched on. Obviously he didn't need to do it personally, Sasuke left the village with the Sound Four. With Tsunade, he had to physically be there for her to heal him, and he was necessary to convince her in the first place; that is him being necessary.
    * I criticized it because it wasn't what I said or meant, and then went on to explain the difference.
    * He is regular in this comparison. The only thing that would have made a difference when talking about his chakra amounts is CS and that's only if he had been using it at the time, which he wasn't.
    * And you have yet to provide any evidence as to why it isn't questionable.
    * I asked if what you were saying was that the amount of chakra Sasuke had was so much that summoning a boss summon, which you commented takes a lot of chakra, was only a faction of that amount, which you responded to as it was what you were saying. If he has so much chakra that even a faction of it is "alot of chakra", then he has a massive amount. And as I mentioned, there's only a slight difference between Part One and Part Two Sasuke (.5).
    * I said it may or may not have been one, given that it appears that it was Sasori who broke the pieces apart. And like I pointed out, Sakura had reached her limit before that with fur punches and a healing. The fact that she pushed herself beyond that doesn't change that.
    * There is, as already mentioned, only a slight difference. And it would make no sense for such a thing not to be mentioned or remarked upon. Every comment about it has been a comparison to Tsunade's seal, and we know the specific mechanics involving the Byakugou seal.
    * No, what I'm suggesting is that the amount that Sakura contributed didn't "heal a huge number of ninjas in a matter of minutes". I provided the link to show that even though Katsuya was barely getting anything from Tsunade, it was still capable of using it's remote healing enough to keep her and the other Kages alive for quite some time. Tsunade and Sakura may "contribute" to it, but the idea that they pay for the whole thing clearly isn't the case, else it wouldn't be "Katsuya's" remote healing. We had a few ninjas commenting on their strength returning and one ninja getting a small cut healed. That doesn't equal healing a great number in a matter of moments, otherwise they still wouldn't be being healed afterwards. That's not even how it would work. Let's say that Sakura was using some brand new version of the seal that didn't involve it changing appearance or anything. That means that she stored so much chakra in just three years that she was capable of employing numerous costly punches and healing and still have more then enough left over to maintain the seal's appearance, something Tsunade wasn't and isn't capable of doing. Now considering you called me out for even unintentionally implying Sakura had more chakra, I'm quite interested to hear the justification for this belief.
    * She spoke two sentences, which is not a speech.
    * That being slashed, in a non-vital area, didn't add anything more to being stabbed in the back. She was in no greater serious danger, especially given that we were already told how her breast size was a benefit to protecting that area.
    * The only time that Tobirama did such a thing was with Orochimaru, which doesn't really count given that Orochimaru was pumping the chakra into him. Outside of that, Tobirama never sensed any difference in chakra. He could felt the movement and make a guess, but nothing about their chakra. And Aoi could only tell the difference between chakra upon using his Byakugan.
    * I have spoken before about that, the fact that Orochimaru didn't show it before or every after despite it being such an important ability. But he did, which is the entire point. He was at his very limit and it specifically because they were talking so long that Kimimaro was sent. If it as you said, then he should have went himself, given that he was as mentioned, at his limit and had to change right away, which eventually resulted in him taking an unsuitable body. He was in an even tougher spot then with Tsunade, as he was actually close to dying at this point, whereas he had time and other options when he was dealing with Tsunade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The databook agrees, and the general points of the manga; so it isn't just my opinion. The only basis you have is that Oro relied on them, ok. Oro just needs to choose his subordinates better because every single one of them lost to genin.
    Where in the databook? As for the manga, I pointed out several examples that show differently (them being referred to as jounin, them being sent against jounin-level opponents, etc). And the fact that the ninjas who fought them wanted to send a team of jounin after them. Um, Kabuto also lost to a genin, and he was giving Tsunade a run for her money. Hell, Sarutobi "lost" against a genin too. None of that really changes the overall point, considering that the Konoha Nine were made out to be unique for genins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Logic isn't enough? So he dealt with it. Speed is one factor amongst many; Sakura is more skilled than Kiba, that doesn't mean she's faster than him. Skills aren't equivalent to speed. I was unaware that I was arguing against such a thing at any point, maybe you should check that. Yes, and I've never claimed that they would be unable to land hits or avoid blows, I just claimed that they wouldn't be able to blitz her and she would be able to land hits and avoid some of their attacks. A little chakra, Sasuke has a few of those katons in him. And how is Tsunade going to lose an arm to an explosive tag, you just throw these things in randomly for the heck of it, don't you?
    * Logic is what says otherwise. We were given no mention of Tsunade being faster then that, or of her losing speed. But more importantly, if such was the case for her, then the same would have been true of Kabuto, meaning no actual difference between them.
    * Speed is one of the most important, and considered key most of the time. Sakura's not more skilled then Kiba, except with medical ninjutsu which Kiba doesn't even use and booksmarts. Everything else Kiba has the edge in. So this example doesn't even work. Regardless, the point is that all Kakashi saw of Haku when he made his comment was his speed, and Zabuza specifically praised Haku's speed. To think that his speed wasn't a factor in their comments about his skills makes no sense.
    * I've been claiming, since the beginning, that Sasuke and Naruto would be capable of doing well against Tsunade because Kabuto did so. I have mentioned them having similar speed multiple times and used that as a factor in their favor. I'm not sure why you are unaware of this, exactly why did you think I kept on using Kabuto and talking about his performance?
    * You have spoke about them being unable to avoid her blows, which goes against what was shown, with Kabuto easily avoiding any damaging blows when he was focus and landing his attacks with far more ease then her. In this scenario, we have that double with even more tricks available then a simple feint. As far as we have been shown, the boys would be capable of pushing Tsunade into using her seal relatively quickly, and from that point it's merely a waiting game.
    * Where has it been shown in the manga that the Katons that Sasuke use are costly? The only one that comes close to that is the Great Fireball, and Sasuke was capable of producing a large amount of flames years before he even became a genin. And an explosive tag can be stuck to the target, or simply thrown near on a kunai hidden within the flames. Heck, it could be stabbed into the arm that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    We know that? By 'we' I assume you're referencing yourself because I'm certain most people remain entirely unconvinced. I just qualified that the example you sued had very specific circumstances that were certainly not going to be replicated here. I'm honestly trying to figure out what you're saying here. What would stop them from running in the opposite direction, the manga does show them fleeing in the other direction, away from Tsunade. I seriously have no idea what you're trying to claim.
    * Most people? If Tsunade was incapable of doing any real damage to Orochimaru either of the times she actually hit him, then why would it be any different with the boys?
    * Why could it not be replicated here? What is it about this situation that would prevent the boys from coming up with a plan and pulling it off without needing to speak or given any indication that there's a plan in play?
    * It does not seem that complicated to me. If they are running in one direction and Tsuande is following behind them, how exactly are they going to go in the opposite direction, towards Tsunade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Second, inferior. How can she be in the middle? I'm sure if you stopped for a second and thought about this you'd realise what you're saying doesn't make sense. If these two are the only one's being measured, Temari is below average. Let's think about it in terms of numbers, say Naruto is 100 and Temari is 50, the average is 75, Naruto is above the average and she is below. The only way Temari could be average is if Naruto had the same level, or more individuals were added for consideration. To be in the middle, you're central between two points. If there are only two points, how can one be in the middle. Seriously, just stop, breathe, and process on this one, because I'm certain you know better. The manga made explicit claims about his durability while the others attacked, the comments make that clear. And for the record, that claim wouldn't be necessary. And as I've said, this goes back to Tsunade's healing feats, and has gone so far beyond it at this point.
    * No, what you're saying doesn't make sense. Temari was suppose to be the best, with only Naruto above. If Naruto takes the top spot, that simply puts Temari in the middle, not the best but not the worst either. Average. For your reasoning to work, it would mean that Naruto is average, in order to have Temari below average, and that makes no sense given that he's suppose to be the BEST, which would clearly mean he's above average. If 100 is the peak, then 0 would be the bottom, making 50 the middle.
    * Yes, the comments were clearly all shown while he had his lightning cloak up. In addition, the only thing the manga has shown weak against wind is lightning, which ties back into it being the cloak. The one time that he didn't have the cloak up, there was no such durability shown.
    * That claim is basically what is being stated here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Three and four can denote the number of tails, that doesn't mean that each tail has the same effect. I don't get your point. And I've disagreed with your claim about the CS1 from the beginning, and I haven't seen anything that supports it. No, it doesn't, it's as though you have the inability to consider circumstances when it comes to Tsunade, you seem keen enough on qualifying Sasuke, but otherwise, it's just irrelevant. That's for the user, that doesn't say anything about the target being unable to react. Itachi picked him up and threw him around with casual ease in the middle of his chidori. Wait, you're going with Tsunade injured on her knees and tricked into protecting her neck? Yeah, that's definitely indicative of what you're suggesting, seriously? The noticing part changes the scenario entirely, so? So moving forward and swinging one punch is several moves? We obviously have very different definitions. Because throwing a punch, seems like one move to me. And I'm assuming you aren't going to bother to claim that that takes 30 seconds to a minute. And you've come to that conclusion about Kabuto's speed being their baseline how? And why wouldn't she be able to respond? And what if she uses her seal, maybe she has a pocket Katsuyu, apparently they can just heal you up without any problems? Yes, they can continue with their attack, but it's unlikely to succeed.
    * Um, but they do have the same effect. When have we ever been shown the number of tails having any different effect? All the tails display is the amount of chakra being drawn out and the closeness to the complete materialization. How about this, it's like the situation with Hiraishin and Hiraishin stage two.
    * The time with Gaara, and the time with the Sound Four both showed Sasuke using his CS1 when he wanted it.
    * Then what use would such an attack be? I have considered circumstances, but between what we've seen of the speed and of the damage, I'm not seeing any reason to presume more then what was shown. I have done the same thing for Sasuke and Naruto, not presuming that their Chidori/Rasengan will make for a TKO when used. I think I'm doing pretty good giving Tsunade the benefit of a doubt that she'll lose by chakra lost instead of being killed.
    * The addition of the Sharingan solved the problem of the user not being able to react, meaning that thanks to the prediction ability, they are able to modify their movement to land the hit. Itachi was both faster and had a Sharingan too, which negated his advantage as already mentioned.
    * You have tried to claim that despite his speed, Sasuke running up to Tsunade with the Chidori would be easy for her to see and react to. I now have given a link showing showing Kabuto running up to Tsunade with her unable to block or dodge, despite her being capable of both of those. The only injury she had was the removal of her super strength, she could still move and attack, as you have continuous mentioned elsewhere. So if she was just able to throw out a counterattack before, which you have claimed she'll do here too, then there's no excuse for her not to be able to block or dodge something moments later.
    * So there's nothing suggesting he "noticed her getting up". We have him reacting to danger. That doesn't mean he stood there and watched her get up.
    * He is literally seeing what Naruto is doing step by step, seeing each and every step Naruto takes to get to him and the movement involved in actually forming said punch. And the time was based on how long it would take to run a couple of yards. I would say 30 seconds is a good number.
    * Um, I have always spoke about it being the baseline, thus the reason I employed the databooks. Every time I spoke about the speed that Sasuke used against Gaara, I referred to it as his max.
    * How would she respond upon being hit with the Rasengan? At the very least, she would be forced backwards. There hasn't been a single character that simply took a Rasengan or it's variations without being pushed back. And if she uses her seal, she's now on a time limit and they merely have to wait her out. That was the original premise to how the boys win in case you forgot, them making her use her seal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    He handled it, and he smiled, admittedly that might just be Oro's face, but he handled it nevertheless. And Rasengan is based off of it, but it isn't the same. We've seen the many differences between the two.
    He handled it by blocking it, which doesn't change the point of it being so dangerous that a direct hit would kill him. But the Rasengan used with the cloak is the same, literally the same process as stated by Kirabi and ratio. The only difference between the Rasengan and Bijuu Blast is the chakra, and that's no longer the case when used with the cloak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Is that what I disagreed with? I'm absolutely certain I've claimed there was likely to be a delay that would allow Tsunade to take the advantage. I didn't say he couldn't get Gamabunta. So, no. The fact that we even discussed Gama and Katsuyu's abilities would make it clear that I didn't disregard Bunta. The other examples, two, one that would seem to counter your claim and the other under circumstance that I've qualified over and over. That might be the case, but it was a part of the process. A moment is a second, maybe two, in the context of battle. Yes, he fought Manda, but he was expecting an attack. If Katsuyu is already out before he's summoned, she has the initiative. A moment is more than enough for Katsuyu to spray acid. Those comments happened away from the battle after A had avoided Amaterasu. And to me it makes a difference, he'd already accessed the chakra at that point. That's Part 2 Naruto. Once again, you admit to bringing up the thousand clones and then using Rasengan with said clones, I simply repeated that.
    * And again, "when he wanted it". I never said you disregarded Gamabunta. You spoke of a delay, and the manga shows there would be no delay.
    * It doesn't counter anything because it's clearly flawed. There's isn't any reason Naruto would have to make two attempts at getting the Kyuubi's chakra. And since Naruto doesn't have to go through that process again, it doesn't matter. Heck, not to mention that there was clearly a difference in time, otherwise Naruto would have hit the ground before.
    * Good, and now, what frame of time do you see that would suggest that the examples I have used have taken longer then a few seconds?
    * Right, because being summoned wouldn't kind of suggest that he's likely going to a fight. Not to mention, already pointed out it could be avoided without warning.
    * Those comments are right during the battle, in the middle of Ee's shunshin, which we know is instantaneous.
    * What? He already accessed the chakra by drawing it out, without having to ask by the way, so how does that make it any better for your argument?
    * The mechanics of the clones would still be the same. Fact remains that there isn't any example in the series showing more clones equaling weaker clones.
    * ... Now I know you're just messing with me, since the issue was the claim of a thousand clones using Rasengans and that's obviously wasn't even implied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Seriously? Your link shows the bushes for the trap, there's a panel just for it. And from what we've seen it'd take a lot less damage to take out a clone. I imagine he is. But, he pulled it out. Yes, it has its costs, but it's benefits outweigh those. Yes, Oro didn't show his best against the Sannin, but that doesn't change that he was tougher than against Sasuke. They did go easier. Yes, I did, that was to make the point that Oro couldn't have been expected to do more on the purely ninjutsu front when he wasn't exactly in a position to do as such at the time, and it also highlighted that Oro's performance against the Sannin was more impressive than against Sasuke, and that was without his arms, so he obviously wasn't trying against Sasuke.
    * Huh? I don't understand what you're trying to argue. The whole point is that there was a pretty wide clearing between Kakashi and where the trap could have been set.
    * When have we seen that? We've seen clones take quite a beating, and damage to the point of bleeding.
    * Unlike Kakashi, Sasuke's usage of the Sharingan doesn't cost him any real amount of chakra, meaning he can use it whenever he wants without a problem. Which as said, doesn't hurt my claim. The benefits don't outweigh the cost, at least not before he gained MS. How was he tougher? As mentioned, he used more in the Forest of Death then he did against the Sannins. Given Orochimaru used both ninjutsu and genjutsu against Sasuke, whereas the only thing he used against the Sannins and not Sasuke was his sword, not seeing how they had it harder. Except, according to the logic you used before, he should have had no trouble using his ninjutsus when all he had to do was do it through Kabuto. And how was it more impressive? The summon battle? That was more of Manda then Orochimaru.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Being the ultimate regeneration technique just means it's the best, it doesn't mean you should assume that the user is immortal. Against Madara, failed miserably, but it was a speed feat, and we do have Tobirama's comments, although even I'd admit that I think Tobirama might've oversold him. Yet, we've seen it have that effect, why, I don't know, but it did. It might just be that later on in his training he had greater control over the chakra, or his body had adjusted to it, I don't know. Maybe Kishi just forgot. So if she was able to crack what is arguable the strongest chakra shield we've seen, why would she have any problem with one-tailed Naruto's? Her chakra, the same thing keeping her on top of the water? It was tougher than normal ice, that was pretty obvious. An advanced form, you mean with tons more chakra behind it? That's like using an example of one of Naruto's bijuu-mode oodama rasengans as an example of regular old rasengan's ability. That's just Sasuke getting thrown around, I was talking about the chakra pressure you referenced with Haku. If the roar throws her under water or away from him, how is he landing multiple blows?
    * Why not, when it involves regeneration? I mean, can you name a fictional character who had regeneration and wasn't basically immortal?
    * Against Madara? You mean this? We see the kunai thrown right in front of Madara beforehand, meaning that Hiraishin. And I'm pretty sure Tobirama only praised Minato's Hiraishin.
    * He neither had any opportunity to gain greater control and he already would have been adjusted to it by that point.
    * Because as mentioned, cracking doesn't mean getting though and cracking Naruto's shield neither affects him or ruins his defense, as he can simply repair it with more chakra. Um, Sasuke was using chakra to stand on the water too, so what? The ice could withstand fire, but got broken by Naruto's shout. And what would the difference be? More power, which I already acknowledged. Aside from that difference, what else is there that makes using it as an example to show something not valid? That chakra pressure was what forced Sasuke underwater. Um, like he did with Sasuke... Not to mention that Sasuke could also use that as an opening for his own attacks.

  14. #269
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    * I criticized it because it wasn't what I said or meant, and then went on to explain the difference.
    * He is regular in this comparison. The only thing that would have made a difference when talking about his chakra amounts is CS and that's only if he had been using it at the time, which he wasn't.
    * And you have yet to provide any evidence as to why it isn't questionable.
    * I asked if what you were saying was that the amount of chakra Sasuke had was so much that summoning a boss summon, which you commented takes a lot of chakra, was only a faction of that amount, which you responded to as it was what you were saying. If he has so much chakra that even a faction of it is "alot of chakra", then he has a massive amount. And as I mentioned, there's only a slight difference between Part One and Part Two Sasuke (.5).
    * I said it may or may not have been one, given that it appears that it was Sasori who broke the pieces apart. And like I pointed out, Sakura had reached her limit before that with fur punches and a healing. The fact that she pushed herself beyond that doesn't change that.
    * There is, as already mentioned, only a slight difference. And it would make no sense for such a thing not to be mentioned or remarked upon. Every comment about it has been a comparison to Tsunade's seal, and we know the specific mechanics involving the Byakugou seal.
    * No, what I'm suggesting is that the amount that Sakura contributed didn't "heal a huge number of ninjas in a matter of minutes". I provided the link to show that even though Katsuya was barely getting anything from Tsunade, it was still capable of using it's remote healing enough to keep her and the other Kages alive for quite some time. Tsunade and Sakura may "contribute" to it, but the idea that they pay for the whole thing clearly isn't the case, else it wouldn't be "Katsuya's" remote healing. We had a few ninjas commenting on their strength returning and one ninja getting a small cut healed. That doesn't equal healing a great number in a matter of moments, otherwise they still wouldn't be being healed afterwards. That's not even how it would work. Let's say that Sakura was using some brand new version of the seal that didn't involve it changing appearance or anything. That means that she stored so much chakra in just three years that she was capable of employing numerous costly punches and healing and still have more then enough left over to maintain the seal's appearance, something Tsunade wasn't and isn't capable of doing. Now considering you called me out for even unintentionally implying Sakura had more chakra, I'm quite interested to hear the justification for this belief.
    * She spoke two sentences, which is not a speech.
    * That being slashed, in a non-vital area, didn't add anything more to being stabbed in the back. She was in no greater serious danger, especially given that we were already told how her breast size was a benefit to protecting that area.
    * The only time that Tobirama did such a thing was with Orochimaru, which doesn't really count given that Orochimaru was pumping the chakra into him. Outside of that, Tobirama never sensed any difference in chakra. He could felt the movement and make a guess, but nothing about their chakra. And Aoi could only tell the difference between chakra upon using his Byakugan.
    * I have spoken before about that, the fact that Orochimaru didn't show it before or every after despite it being such an important ability. But he did, which is the entire point. He was at his very limit and it specifically because they were talking so long that Kimimaro was sent. If it as you said, then he should have went himself, given that he was as mentioned, at his limit and had to change right away, which eventually resulted in him taking an unsuitable body. He was in an even tougher spot then with Tsunade, as he was actually close to dying at this point, whereas he had time and other options when he was dealing with Tsunade.
    My point was that you then used the same term I had, and then defended it as synonymous, which obviously begs the question of what was the purpose of the initial criticism. Why would I provide evidence to disprove an erroneous question; the manga presenting it is more than enough. The standards for the cost of a technique and chakra reserves are different. The punch was thrown using Sakura's chakra, so it counts, and obviously it wasn't her limit if she was able to do so much more. On Katsuyu's healing, I'd advise you refer to the databook or the manga; the words used are channeling, and remote healing. The user channels their healing chakra to Katsuyu's derived parts, and those parts transfer said chakra to target. We've been told the link is maintained through the seal. I'm pretty sure Tsunade's showed greater use of the seal during the Invasion of Pain and the entire war. so I'm not sure what I'd be required to justify. Once again, Sakura suggested it, and Katsuyu and Shizune confirmed, whether or not you think its consistent doesn't change that. Deciding to talk rather than heal would suggest that it wasn't as problematic as you suggested. More blood loss and damage to the body after already sustaining a serious injury does make the situation worse. He was also able to sense Madara's chakra, and identify Karin's. And Ao was able to pick out Edos from Zetsu during the war with his sensing abilities. I'm not even sure why we're talking about Oro anymore, and I'm not sure I can be convinced to car enough after being misrepresented.

    Quote Quote:
    Where in the databook? As for the manga, I pointed out several examples that show differently (them being referred to as jounin, them being sent against jounin-level opponents, etc). And the fact that the ninjas who fought them wanted to send a team of jounin after them. Um, Kabuto also lost to a genin, and he was giving Tsunade a run for her money. Hell, Sarutobi "lost" against a genin too. None of that really changes the overall point, considering that the Konoha Nine were made out to be unique for genins.
    Finding databooks take time, time I'm not particularly interested in using. If you wish to check, you can look it up. And those things don't change reality. Yes, he did, but Kabuto has shown his abilities, and how they can compare to those of higher ranks. The only battles the Sound Four have are a battle where they outnumbered two weakened Special Genin, leading to a tough win, and losses to genin. That track record doesn't suggest anything close to being better than Jounin.

    Quote Quote:
    * Logic is what says otherwise. We were given no mention of Tsunade being faster then that, or of her losing speed. But more importantly, if such was the case for her, then the same would have been true of Kabuto, meaning no actual difference between them.
    * Speed is one of the most important, and considered key most of the time. Sakura's not more skilled then Kiba, except with medical ninjutsu which Kiba doesn't even use and booksmarts. Everything else Kiba has the edge in. So this example doesn't even work. Regardless, the point is that all Kakashi saw of Haku when he made his comment was his speed, and Zabuza specifically praised Haku's speed. To think that his speed wasn't a factor in their comments about his skills makes no sense.
    * I've been claiming, since the beginning, that Sasuke and Naruto would be capable of doing well against Tsunade because Kabuto did so. I have mentioned them having similar speed multiple times and used that as a factor in their favor. I'm not sure why you are unaware of this, exactly why did you think I kept on using Kabuto and talking about his performance?
    * You have spoke about them being unable to avoid her blows, which goes against what was shown, with Kabuto easily avoiding any damaging blows when he was focus and landing his attacks with far more ease then her. In this scenario, we have that double with even more tricks available then a simple feint. As far as we have been shown, the boys would be capable of pushing Tsunade into using her seal relatively quickly, and from that point it's merely a waiting game.
    * Where has it been shown in the manga that the Katons that Sasuke use are costly? The only one that comes close to that is the Great Fireball, and Sasuke was capable of producing a large amount of flames years before he even became a genin. And an explosive tag can be stuck to the target, or simply thrown near on a kunai hidden within the flames. Heck, it could be stabbed into the arm that way.
    I'm pretty sure it's logical to assume that someone that is exhausted isn't going to be as fast as they'd be in peak condition. You say it goes against what was shown, and I say otherwise. I'm pretty sure Sakura has been qualified as more skilled than Kiba, and I've no idea what this 'everything else' is that you're referring to. Did I say speed wasn't a factor, even once? You've a habit of suggesting something from my end, and just running with it, when it just isn't the case. Where did I speak 'about them being unable to avoid her blows', please. And you're qualifying Kabuto as easily avoiding her blows, based on what? We haven't been shown any such thing. And the suggestion about the stamina required for such techniques is based on Kakashi's characterisation of it during Sasuke's first usage, and Sasuke's subsequent usage in the context of battles. Stuck to an arm, and what Tsunade isn't going to attempt to move it, or they're just going to hold it there and hope they don't take too much damage themselves. And we've seen the damage from explosive tags; Sakura used one on herself, got up, and kept fighting.

    Quote Quote:
    * Most people? If Tsunade was incapable of doing any real damage to Orochimaru either of the times she actually hit him, then why would it be any different with the boys?
    * Why could it not be replicated here? What is it about this situation that would prevent the boys from coming up with a plan and pulling it off without needing to speak or given any indication that there's a plan in play?
    * It does not seem that complicated to me. If they are running in one direction and Tsuande is following behind them, how exactly are they going to go in the opposite direction, towards Tsunade?
    Because the boys aren't Orochimaru, obviously. I just pointed out that the plans that were successful in the past worked under specific circumstances. Are you being particularly dense on purpose, or do you seriously just now know. After Tsunade's strike, Oro and Kabuto turn away from her and run in the other direction, it's right there.

    Quote Quote:
    * No, what you're saying doesn't make sense. Temari was suppose to be the best, with only Naruto above. If Naruto takes the top spot, that simply puts Temari in the middle, not the best but not the worst either. Average. For your reasoning to work, it would mean that Naruto is average, in order to have Temari below average, and that makes no sense given that he's suppose to be the BEST, which would clearly mean he's above average. If 100 is the peak, then 0 would be the bottom, making 50 the middle.
    * Yes, the comments were clearly all shown while he had his lightning cloak up. In addition, the only thing the manga has shown weak against wind is lightning, which ties back into it being the cloak. The one time that he didn't have the cloak up, there was no such durability shown.
    * That claim is basically what is being stated here.
    If there are two people, Naruto and Temari, and Naruto's on top, how on earth is Temari in the middle? Seriously? Who's below her to put her in the middle? Are you reading what you're posting? Do you just not understand the meaning of the word average? So what's your point? And yet, it isn't. I think you need to sit down and work on your logical flow.

    Quote Quote:
    * Um, but they do have the same effect. When have we ever been shown the number of tails having any different effect? All the tails display is the amount of chakra being drawn out and the closeness to the complete materialization. How about this, it's like the situation with Hiraishin and Hiraishin stage two.
    * The time with Gaara, and the time with the Sound Four both showed Sasuke using his CS1 when he wanted it.
    * Then what use would such an attack be? I have considered circumstances, but between what we've seen of the speed and of the damage, I'm not seeing any reason to presume more then what was shown. I have done the same thing for Sasuke and Naruto, not presuming that their Chidori/Rasengan will make for a TKO when used. I think I'm doing pretty good giving Tsunade the benefit of a doubt that she'll lose by chakra lost instead of being killed.
    * The addition of the Sharingan solved the problem of the user not being able to react, meaning that thanks to the prediction ability, they are able to modify their movement to land the hit. Itachi was both faster and had a Sharingan too, which negated his advantage as already mentioned.
    * You have tried to claim that despite his speed, Sasuke running up to Tsunade with the Chidori would be easy for her to see and react to. I now have given a link showing showing Kabuto running up to Tsunade with her unable to block or dodge, despite her being capable of both of those. The only injury she had was the removal of her super strength, she could still move and attack, as you have continuous mentioned elsewhere. So if she was just able to throw out a counterattack before, which you have claimed she'll do here too, then there's no excuse for her not to be able to block or dodge something moments later.
    * So there's nothing suggesting he "noticed her getting up". We have him reacting to danger. That doesn't mean he stood there and watched her get up.
    * He is literally seeing what Naruto is doing step by step, seeing each and every step Naruto takes to get to him and the movement involved in actually forming said punch. And the time was based on how long it would take to run a couple of yards. I would say 30 seconds is a good number.
    * Um, I have always spoke about it being the baseline, thus the reason I employed the databooks. Every time I spoke about the speed that Sasuke used against Gaara, I referred to it as his max.
    * How would she respond upon being hit with the Rasengan? At the very least, she would be forced backwards. There hasn't been a single character that simply took a Rasengan or it's variations without being pushed back. And if she uses her seal, she's now on a time limit and they merely have to wait her out. That was the original premise to how the boys win in case you forgot, them making her use her seal.
    No, they don't. And the Hiraishin example is even worse. My example was admittedly tenuous, this one is just random. I'm pretty sure you aren't any closer to making your point. Really, you're giving Tsunade the benefit of the doubt. If that were the case, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Once again, what does the user being able to react have to do with the target being able to react. you've jumped onto something else entirely, something I agree with, but isn't actually relevant. She did block, she just blocked in the wrong place. And is it necessary for me too point out again that she was injured and on her knees. How about this, if Tsunade has some of her muscles torn up, is on her knees, and Sasuke tricks into protecting the wrong part of her body, he can hit her. If he's reacting, he noticed. Once again, if you want to consider the motion of moving toward an opponent and throwing a single punch as several moves, go for it, but I won't. However, this absolute nonsense about that taking 30 seconds isn't even debatable. The average human could cover a couple yards in a couple seconds, there isn't anyway that you're going to successfully argue that what Sasuke was seeing took 30 seconds. Out of the many claims I've disagreed with, this absolutely has to be the most ridiculous. And how did you come to the conclusion that Kabuto's speed was their baseline because that is what I'm having a difficult time getting to. If she takes down one of them in the process, I'm sure she wouldn't mind. And according to you, she could just summon a mini Katsuyu, and she could heal it up without Tsunade needing to use her seal.


    Quote Quote:
    He handled it by blocking it, which doesn't change the point of it being so dangerous that a direct hit would kill him. But the Rasengan used with the cloak is the same, literally the same process as stated by Kirabi and ratio. The only difference between the Rasengan and Bijuu Blast is the chakra, and that's no longer the case when used with the cloak.
    And it doesn't change the point that he handled it. Same process, obviously different results. One obvious difference would be that the Bijuudama is a ranged attack while Rasengan isn't. Another obvious difference would be the manner these attacks cause damage. They're different, I don't even know why you'd feel the need to debate it.

    Quote Quote:
    * And again, "when he wanted it". I never said you disregarded Gamabunta. You spoke of a delay, and the manga shows there would be no delay.
    * It doesn't counter anything because it's clearly flawed. There's isn't any reason Naruto would have to make two attempts at getting the Kyuubi's chakra. And since Naruto doesn't have to go through that process again, it doesn't matter. Heck, not to mention that there was clearly a difference in time, otherwise Naruto would have hit the ground before.
    * Good, and now, what frame of time do you see that would suggest that the examples I have used have taken longer then a few seconds?
    * Right, because being summoned wouldn't kind of suggest that he's likely going to a fight. Not to mention, already pointed out it could be avoided without warning.
    * Those comments are right during the battle, in the middle of Ee's shunshin, which we know is instantaneous.
    * What? He already accessed the chakra by drawing it out, without having to ask by the way, so how does that make it any better for your argument?
    * The mechanics of the clones would still be the same. Fact remains that there isn't any example in the series showing more clones equaling weaker clones.
    * ... Now I know you're just messing with me, since the issue was the claim of a thousand clones using Rasengans and that's obviously wasn't even implied.
    So 'with me claiming that if Tsunade summoned Katsuya then Naruto would summon Gamabunta and you disagreeing with that' doesn't suggest that I ignored Gamabunta as a factor in the battle? The manga does show a delay, even you've pointed it out, you might've disagreed with the extent of the delay and the significance of it, but even you've admitted it. This another bad habit of yours, rather than pointing out qualifiers or actual dilemmas with an even the manga has showed, you just claim it's flawed. As though that holds some meaning. And I don't claim anything more than a few seconds, but a few seconds in the context of a battle between shinobi is a lot. He can't be expected to avoid an attack that he isn't expecting, particularly when he's attacked the moment he's summoned. Add that to the cloud of smoke that accompanies summons, and Gama's face could be melting before he even sees Katsuyu. Away from the battle. Because he'd already been utilising said chakra, so it might be easier to draw upon it again so soon after. Yes, the mechanics didn't change, but because he had more chakra and better control, the clones were stronger and capable of lasting for longer. I've no clue what you're going on with now, but the record shows you brought up a thousand clones and rasengans, and I simply responded to it.

    Quote Quote:
    * Huh? I don't understand what you're trying to argue. The whole point is that there was a pretty wide clearing between Kakashi and where the trap could have been set.
    * When have we seen that? We've seen clones take quite a beating, and damage to the point of bleeding.
    * Unlike Kakashi, Sasuke's usage of the Sharingan doesn't cost him any real amount of chakra, meaning he can use it whenever he wants without a problem. Which as said, doesn't hurt my claim. The benefits don't outweigh the cost, at least not before he gained MS. How was he tougher? As mentioned, he used more in the Forest of Death then he did against the Sannins. Given Orochimaru used both ninjutsu and genjutsu against Sasuke, whereas the only thing he used against the Sannins and not Sasuke was his sword, not seeing how they had it harder. Except, according to the logic you used before, he should have had no trouble using his ninjutsus when all he had to do was do it through Kabuto. And how was it more impressive? The summon battle? That was more of Manda then Orochimaru.
    You don't. You said bushes weren't involved, I pointed to the bushes, and there's a panel right before the trap is released that steers in on the bushes. And those clones went poof, they just held on for a second or two more, that's it. The damage was sufficient to destroy the clones. If generic taijutsu from Sasuke can take down clones, there isn't any reason to suggest that Tsunade, with her own natural strength, wouldn't be able to do the same. You're saying the benefits' don't outweigh the costs, yet it was his go-to for serious situations, Obviously, the user thought differently. Oro threw in a boss summon there, some serious taijutsu, and a legendary blade, with some actual intent to kill. Kabuto was otherwise preoccupied, it isn't as though Kabuto fits into his pocket. And I said that he could transfer to Kabuto to perform techniques, but that would also be limited to the techniques that Kabuto himself was capable of. Manda does count toward Oro's performance, it is his summon.

    Quote Quote:
    * Why not, when it involves regeneration? I mean, can you name a fictional character who had regeneration and wasn't basically immortal?
    * Against Madara? You mean this? We see the kunai thrown right in front of Madara beforehand, meaning that Hiraishin. And I'm pretty sure Tobirama only praised Minato's Hiraishin.
    * He neither had any opportunity to gain greater control and he already would have been adjusted to it by that point.
    * Because as mentioned, cracking doesn't mean getting though and cracking Naruto's shield neither affects him or ruins his defense, as he can simply repair it with more chakra. Um, Sasuke was using chakra to stand on the water too, so what? The ice could withstand fire, but got broken by Naruto's shout. And what would the difference be? More power, which I already acknowledged. Aside from that difference, what else is there that makes using it as an example to show something not valid? That chakra pressure was what forced Sasuke underwater. Um, like he did with Sasuke... Not to mention that Sasuke could also use that as an opening for his own attacks.
    Really? In Naruto alone, Gaara, Naruto, Sakon & Ukon showed regenerative capabilities in Part 1, and I don't know that any of them were thought to be immortal. I meant the attack itself, once again, it failed miserably. Tobirama praised Minato upon their arrival to the battlefield, that wasn't Hiraishin. Why wouldn't he have had the opportunity to gain greater control? There was time between those events. Cracking against Susanoo does mean quite a bit, and if it cracked a Susanoo, it would be expected to break through an inferior chakra coating. I get that it's fire resistant, but that's just it, it shows fire resistance, it's not as though we could make an actual sort of comparison in power considering the different forms of attack. Yes, a lot more power, obviously the results are going to be a lot different. It would be like using a sage mode oodama Rasengan to show the ability of Part 1 Naruto's Rasengan, fundamentally comparable, but at the same time really, really different. When I reference 'chakra pressure' I was talking specifically about the Haku example, where he commented on the pressure coming from Naruto was overwhelming. And unless Sasuke has some serious underwater combat skills, which I'm going to say I seriously doubt, I can't imagine Tsunade would be worried if she's underwater.

  15. #270
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    wow this is still going? Judging by the size of even 1 post I have to conclude that you guys needed a few days for all the posts you did here

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