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Thread: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

  1. #271
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    My point was that you then used the same term I had, and then defended it as synonymous, which obviously begs the question of what was the purpose of the initial criticism. Why would I provide evidence to disprove an erroneous question; the manga presenting it is more than enough. The standards for the cost of a technique and chakra reserves are different. The punch was thrown using Sakura's chakra, so it counts, and obviously it wasn't her limit if she was able to do so much more. On Katsuyu's healing, I'd advise you refer to the databook or the manga; the words used are channeling, and remote healing. The user channels their healing chakra to Katsuyu's derived parts, and those parts transfer said chakra to target. We've been told the link is maintained through the seal. I'm pretty sure Tsunade's showed greater use of the seal during the Invasion of Pain and the entire war. so I'm not sure what I'd be required to justify. Once again, Sakura suggested it, and Katsuyu and Shizune confirmed, whether or not you think its consistent doesn't change that. Deciding to talk rather than heal would suggest that it wasn't as problematic as you suggested. More blood loss and damage to the body after already sustaining a serious injury does make the situation worse. He was also able to sense Madara's chakra, and identify Karin's. And Ao was able to pick out Edos from Zetsu during the war with his sensing abilities. I'm not even sure why we're talking about Oro anymore, and I'm not sure I can be convinced to car enough after being misrepresented.
    * Using a difference tense is not using the same word. And the "initial criticism" was merely on what I considered the fitting word to be.
    * Except the manga doesn’t present it as such, which is the point.
    * Again, if you are claiming that summoning a boss cost a lot of chakra and that Sasuke could do so with only a fraction of his chakra, then you’re claiming he has a massive amount. And not really. The cost of a technique has always been spoken about in relations to how much it would cost an average person, with unique expectations called out for being unique.
    *The punch would have only used chakra upon release, and if Sasori separated himself, there would have been no release and thus no chakra usage. And not only were we told she was at her limits, but she was in terrible conditions afterward.
    * And where is it mentioned that the one sending Katsuya chakra is using the technique? The manga makes it quite clear that Katsuya is doing the healing, and is merely using their chakra to enhance it, thus the reason it was capable of still doing so even when Tsunade was nearly out of chakra.
    * No, Tsunade hasn’t. That best feat she has was protecting everyone, with literally cost her everything and involved people still being injured. And she has done basically nothing impressive with Katsuya this entire war. You have to justify the idea that Sakura was not only capable of using her seal without releasing it to heal and power up, but to do so in a way that she could apparently heal far more people then Tsunade without being drained of chakra, all done with chakra that was only stored up for three years as oppose to Tsunade being completely drained after using chakra stored over a equal and previously longer time.
    * And once again, the context implies gaining the seal, not the activation. The very fact that later on we see her and Tsunade activating it supports this, as there would be no reason for her to activate it if it was already activated.
    * She didn’t “decide to talk rather than heal”, she spoke as she healed. And if it wasn’t so problematic, then Shizune wouldn’t have been in such an uproar about it.
    * But there was barely any blood lost and damage.
    * When did he sense Madara? And that doesn’t mean anything, as it’s completely possible he simply judged by the difference in chakra amounts, especially given that the Zetsu’s chakra was undetectable from the regular ninjas, thus the whole reason they needed Naruto’s help .
    * You are the one who brought up giving others chakra as a common ability, which completely shoots down the idea that Tsunade would be able to outlast the boys if such was the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Finding databooks take time, time I'm not particularly interested in using. If you wish to check, you can look it up. And those things don't change reality. Yes, he did, but Kabuto has shown his abilities, and how they can compare to those of higher ranks. The only battles the Sound Four have are a battle where they outnumbered two weakened Special Genin, leading to a tough win, and losses to genin. That track record doesn't suggest anything close to being better than Jounin.
    * This site has all three of the databooks, along with the fan books, all collected together in one spot. I’ve read the databooks, and seen nothing of the sort. The reality is that there has been no difference shown between them. All we have seen is that they are comparable. Nowhere in the manga as it been shown Jounins doing something and Special Jounins incapable of doing.
    * The point is that you bring up their lost to a genin means nothing when that’s not unique at all. And we have two difference sources telling us that fighting the Sound Four would require high ranking opponents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm pretty sure it's logical to assume that someone that is exhausted isn't going to be as fast as they'd be in peak condition. You say it goes against what was shown, and I say otherwise. I'm pretty sure Sakura has been qualified as more skilled than Kiba, and I've no idea what this 'everything else' is that you're referring to. Did I say speed wasn't a factor, even once? You've a habit of suggesting something from my end, and just running with it, when it just isn't the case. Where did I speak 'about them being unable to avoid her blows', please. And you're qualifying Kabuto as easily avoiding her blows, based on what? We haven't been shown any such thing. And the suggestion about the stamina required for such techniques is based on Kakashi's characterisation of it during Sasuke's first usage, and Sasuke's subsequent usage in the context of battles. Stuck to an arm, and what Tsunade isn't going to attempt to move it, or they're just going to hold it there and hope they don't take too much damage themselves. And we've seen the damage from explosive tags; Sakura used one on herself, got up, and kept fighting.
    * Ee has fought for quite some time, and there hasn’t been any mention of him being slowed down. He’s still being treated as being as fast as normal. Naruto, Kakashi, and Gai too has all been fighting for a long time, to the point of exhaustion, and there has been no mention of them being slowed down. Itachi fought a long battle with Sasuke, and the only reason he got slower was specifically attributed to Tsukuyomi’s drawback. There was no sign of Sasuke slowing down after his “exhausting” fight with Danzo, he was still able to match Kakashi and later on Naruto in speed.
    * Where was that at then, if you please. “Everything else” is all their other abilities, such as strength and speed, fighting ability. Even going by the databook, the only areas besides smarts that Sakura was better in were handsigns and genjutsu, the latter something she didn’t even use.
    * You suggested Kakashi’s comment was about more than speed, despite the only thing Haku showed before that point was speed. Kakashi didn’t see any of his other abilities, so how could his comment about skills not have been mainly about speed?
    * You claim she would be able to hit them, and that’s highly unlikely as far as we have been shown. How was this, and this not easily avoiding her blows?
    * Kakashi's comment was that Sasuke shouldn't have been able to use the technique in the first place, which doesn't mean anything when he was capable of using a much larger version several years earlier.
    * Her attempting to move it means she's not playing attention to the boys... And Sakura didn't take a direct hit and was still knocked down. That works out perfectly for the boys gaining an opening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Because the boys aren't Orochimaru, obviously. I just pointed out that the plans that were successful in the past worked under specific circumstances. Are you being particularly dense on purpose, or do you seriously just now know. After Tsunade's strike, Oro and Kabuto turn away from her and run in the other direction, it's right there.
    * Orochimaru takes damage like any other person, making that a moot point.
    * And again, why could it (them interacting a plan without needing to speak of it) not be replicated here? Exactly what would prevent them from doing that in this situation.
    * And she follows them, with them all moving in the same direction. She was right behind them when they began to run away from her…

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If there are two people, Naruto and Temari, and Naruto's on top, how on earth is Temari in the middle? Seriously? Who's below her to put her in the middle? Are you reading what you're posting? Do you just not understand the meaning of the word average? So what's your point? And yet, it isn't. I think you need to sit down and work on your logical flow.
    * Because the bottom is zero, the worst. I understand the meaning of average fine. Average means neither the best (which is Naruto) nor the worst ( which would be the bottom of the scale). Now how exactly is Temari supposed to be at the bottom when she starts out at the top until Naruto comes along and moves her down to the middle? It’s basic mathematics.
    * Um, that his Lightning Cloak was the source of his great defensiveness. I said that already.
    * There’s nothing wrong with my logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    No, they don't. And the Hiraishin example is even worse. My example was admittedly tenuous, this one is just random. I'm pretty sure you aren't any closer to making your point. Really, you're giving Tsunade the benefit of the doubt. If that were the case, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Once again, what does the user being able to react have to do with the target being able to react. you've jumped onto something else entirely, something I agree with, but isn't actually relevant. She did block, she just blocked in the wrong place. And is it necessary for me too point out again that she was injured and on her knees. How about this, if Tsunade has some of her muscles torn up, is on her knees, and Sasuke tricks into protecting the wrong part of her body, he can hit her. If he's reacting, he noticed. Once again, if you want to consider the motion of moving toward an opponent and throwing a single punch as several moves, go for it, but I won't. However, this absolute nonsense about that taking 30 seconds isn't even debatable. The average human could cover a couple yards in a couple seconds, there isn't anyway that you're going to successfully argue that what Sasuke was seeing took 30 seconds. Out of the many claims I've disagreed with, this absolutely has to be the most ridiculous. And how did you come to the conclusion that Kabuto's speed was their baseline because that is what I'm having a difficult time getting to. If she takes down one of them in the process, I'm sure she wouldn't mind. And according to you, she could just summon a mini Katsuyu, and she could heal it up without Tsunade needing to use her seal.
    * What difference do they have then? And how is the Hiraishin example bad?
    * So me merely claiming that the boys only win against Tsunade when she’s incapable of doing anything after she gets hit with the effects of her seal, as oppose to claiming they easily kill her with their techniques or abilities, is not giving her the benefit of a doubt ?
    * Because the user is reacting to events that will happen, not what is happening, meaning their opponent’s reaction is already known and accounted for.
    * She blocked what he told her to block, not where the attack was heading. And the fact that she was incapable of changing where she blocked despite having a clear view of Kabuto coming straight at her fully shoots down the idea that she would be able to block or counter Sasuke coming straight at her, especially when Sasuke would be easily able to change where his attack is going to hit. But that means nothing, since as you yourself has mentioned, that didn’t stop her from hitting Kabuto moments before, so said injuries clearly had no affect on her ability to fight back.
    * Um, no, those are two different things. Him reacting to something being wrong is far different then him noticing her get up and come at him like you said.
    * How is it not several moves when we are shown several versions of Naruto making several different actions at the same time? Aside from the fact that you seem to have missed the part where Naruto wasn't simply running the entire time (he had fallen and had to get up), there's also the fact that Sasuke saw not only what Naruto was doing, but what he was going to do before that, that clearly increases the "average" time.
    * Um, the databook, as mentioned earlier. I brought that up the last time you asked.
    * And by that point, she'll have lost as the other simply has to wait her out. Said healing would be slow, and by all accounts wouldn't solve the main problem of her being out of chakra, which has been the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And it doesn't change the point that he handled it. Same process, obviously different results. One obvious difference would be that the Bijuudama is a ranged attack while Rasengan isn't. Another obvious difference would be the manner these attacks cause damage. They're different, I don't even know why you'd feel the need to debate it.
    * By not being directly hit by it, which was where the danger was at. Him stopping that from happening by using some barriers doesn't negate the previous point.
    * Considering the cloak can be extended, range is still there. As for the damage, both are literal explosions upon hit. But they aren't different, that was literally a key point in the manga. Naruto literally used it as an actual Bijuu Blast in his complete cloak to counter the Bijuu Blasts of the other Bijuus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So 'with me claiming that if Tsunade summoned Katsuya then Naruto would summon Gamabunta and you disagreeing with that' doesn't suggest that I ignored Gamabunta as a factor in the battle? The manga does show a delay, even you've pointed it out, you might've disagreed with the extent of the delay and the significance of it, but even you've admitted it. This another bad habit of yours, rather than pointing out qualifiers or actual dilemmas with an even the manga has showed, you just claim it's flawed. As though that holds some meaning. And I don't claim anything more than a few seconds, but a few seconds in the context of a battle between shinobi is a lot. He can't be expected to avoid an attack that he isn't expecting, particularly when he's attacked the moment he's summoned. Add that to the cloud of smoke that accompanies summons, and Gama's face could be melting before he even sees Katsuyu. Away from the battle. Because he'd already been utilising said chakra, so it might be easier to draw upon it again so soon after. Yes, the mechanics didn't change, but because he had more chakra and better control, the clones were stronger and capable of lasting for longer. I've no clue what you're going on with now, but the record shows you brought up a thousand clones and rasengans, and I simply responded to it.
    * Given that I already pointed out that your claim was that Naruto couldn't get the Kyuubi's chakra when he wanted it...
    * And given that the two other examples have no delay of Naruto getting the Kyuubi's chakra after asking for it, how is this example not flawed as claim? I have been explaining exactly why it's flawed the majority of this two, using all the other examples to support said claim.
    * Not at all, especially when up against someone neither faster or possessing a range means of attack, not to mention the various means that Naruto has to buy a second or two, like his clones or one of Sasuke's distractions.
    * Aside from him being summoned meaning he should be expecting something, the only way that could work is if Katsuya launched the attack before Gamabunta was actually summoned and it can't do that because it won't know when such is done. Because as already shown, once Gamabunta is on the field, it won't have much trouble avoiding or countering the attack.
    * They were made in the middle of Ee's shunshin, in between us being shown Ee starting and then ending his attack.
    * That doesn't fit with anything the manga has told us. Naruto is always drawing upon the Kyuubi's chakra, thus the reason his control is screwed up, so by that reasoning there's nothing preventing Naruto from drawing it out at will whenever he wishes.
    * Again, when was it ever shown that less chakra meant weaker clones? Naruto's fight with Gaara and Neji, and Sarutobi's fight with Orochimaru would all show differently.
    * Really? Even though the issue was the claim about a thousand clones using the Rasengan, and the records specifically showing that was not said, you have no clue? Whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You don't. You said bushes weren't involved, I pointed to the bushes, and there's a panel right before the trap is released that steers in on the bushes. And those clones went poof, they just held on for a second or two more, that's it. The damage was sufficient to destroy the clones. If generic taijutsu from Sasuke can take down clones, there isn't any reason to suggest that Tsunade, with her own natural strength, wouldn't be able to do the same. You're saying the benefits' don't outweigh the costs, yet it was his go-to for serious situations, Obviously, the user thought differently. Oro threw in a boss summon there, some serious taijutsu, and a legendary blade, with some actual intent to kill. Kabuto was otherwise preoccupied, it isn't as though Kabuto fits into his pocket. And I said that he could transfer to Kabuto to perform techniques, but that would also be limited to the techniques that Kabuto himself was capable of. Manda does count toward Oro's performance, it is his summon.
    * You spoke of the bushes behind Kakashi, and I pointed out that the trap didn't come from that direction, the kunais came at him from the front, Sasuke's direction, where there were quite a distances between Kakashi and the nearest trees and bushes.
    * Those clones held on for a little more then that, enough time to fool Neji, and to hold and seal the Edo Hokages. Aside from the fact that Sasuke's taijutsu isn't generic, it's the same style as Lee, there are reasons, such as the fact that even with her strength, she barely did any damage to Orochimaru and no damage to Kabuto.
    * But it wasn't, as I pointed out. He didn't try to use it against Orochimaru, which was the far most serious situation. And he only used it against Itachi because he believed it would help against being caught in a genjutsu, as oppose to going up against two S-rank ninjas. And in the Forest of Death, he used his wind ninjutsu, showed killing intent, and a giant summonings. Kabuto wasn't preoccupied with anything and where was this apparent limitation shown at? So what you are now saying is that Kabuto was fully capable of summoning Manda as I said before? And Manda himself counts, not his actions that he took on his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Really? In Naruto alone, Gaara, Naruto, Sakon & Ukon showed regenerative capabilities in Part 1, and I don't know that any of them were thought to be immortal. I meant the attack itself, once again, it failed miserably. Tobirama praised Minato upon their arrival to the battlefield, that wasn't Hiraishin. Why wouldn't he have had the opportunity to gain greater control? There was time between those events. Cracking against Susanoo does mean quite a bit, and if it cracked a Susanoo, it would be expected to break through an inferior chakra coating. I get that it's fire resistant, but that's just it, it shows fire resistance, it's not as though we could make an actual sort of comparison in power considering the different forms of attack. Yes, a lot more power, obviously the results are going to be a lot different. It would be like using a sage mode oodama Rasengan to show the ability of Part 1 Naruto's Rasengan, fundamentally comparable, but at the same time really, really different. When I reference 'chakra pressure' I was talking specifically about the Haku example, where he commented on the pressure coming from Naruto was overwhelming. And unless Sasuke has some serious underwater combat skills, which I'm going to say I seriously doubt, I can't imagine Tsunade would be worried if she's underwater.
    * Naruto was seen as such, Gaara didn't show any regenerative abilities, and Sakon/Ukon relied upon the other to heal. How about Kimimaro, who came back from several killer attacks and only died due to sickness.
    * Creating a Rasengan isn't a speed feat, and quite sure it was Hiraishin.
    * Because after the events with Orochimaru, Naruto decided not to use the Kyuubi's chakra anymore. He didn't decide to try again to control it til after the events at the summit.
    * No it wouldn't, since getting through the cloak would be quiet different then getting through a solid defence. The current arc has shown us how durable the cloak is, and we've seen how durable pure chakra is with Neji. Except we can because we know the power behind Sasuke's fireball. Which doesn't change the original point, that the shout has physical force behind it, since I both it and a weaker example along with the stronger one to show as such. Aside from Sasuke having an electric attack, which would be quite useful against someone in water, she'll eventually have to come up and there's no way that she can adequately defend and claim out of the water at the same time.

  2. #272
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke and Naruto vs. Tsunade

    @Rikudou King

    I started reading, and then realised that I couldn't be bothered to care enough to respond at this point; the discussion has devolved that much. I'm soundly of the opinion that when you've gone for an extended period where more of the conversation has to do with other characters, spanning the gambit from Oro to Sakura to Temari to the Sandaime Raikage, basic mathematical concepts, parsing language, and I said/You said, rather than the individuals in the match-up, it's probably a lost cause. We pretty much disagree on everything. I think Tsunade wins, you think otherwise. Moving on...

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