Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

[M3J]

@M3J
I seriously disagree.

Nagato destroyed Konoha.

Kakashi only fought two Paths and still died, moot point.

okay. Manga can speak for itself.

Itachi was not seeking to destroy Konoha. He even prevented Tobi from taking action while Nagato was taking Tobi's orders, even though Itachi was as well indirectly. Nagato still screwed up many times when he invaded Konoha and when he fought Naruto, he even lost a body to a damn kid.

He only died to save Chouji, otherwise he'd have lived. Kakashi never had an upperhand against Itachi, but he was even with the two bodies until the last Shinra Tensei. Itachi did better than Nagato against Kakashi. Itachi also remains the only person to have owned Naruto every time they met, and the only one to have taken down Orochimaru.

Nagato's only accomplishment was killing Jiraiya, which he failed to do on his first go. And it took surprise and six bodies to do so.

Once again, feats mean nothing. It's about matchups. Sasuke can have killed 5 kage at once, but he'd be a bad match for Lee, who'd be so fast Sasuke couldn't keep up.

I'm sorry your logic is very bad. Nagato destroyed Konoha, Itachi killed the Uchiha clan with help which is an amazing feat just not as good destroying the entire Leaf Village.

The logic isn't bad at all. Nagato had help with destroying Konoha. He had six bodies and Konan. Itachi only had himself and Tobi. Nagato expended a lot of power, but from the looks of it, Itachi didn't.

I believe so, I prefer facts.

and facts state that Itachi and Kisame are likely to beat the Sannin based on what they've shown.

You need to use facts that can't be denied or shown to be contrary. Itachi could have been lying to protect Jiraiya while Kisame believed Jiraiya's hype and Itachi. It doesn't look like they have fought, but it can be feasible that Kisame heard insane stories about Jiraiya and believed it.

No, no, no. Your interpretation of a character's abilties and how he could us them does not equate to factual evidence as we have never seen the two characters properly fight. Your argument is based on speculation, mine, as much as you don't want to admit it, is based on fact. Fact you don't agree with, but fact nonetheless.

Your argument is not based on fact whatsoever, it's based on two statements made that can be easily proven otherwise. My interpretation of a character's abilities and how it's used is based on the manga. Itachi in almost every fight has started out with genjutsu. Only Sasuke and Kurenai were able to break out of the genjutsu while Orochimaru was immobilized, Deidara didn't even notice he was in a genjutsu until the end, Naruto got caught and couldn't break out, and Kakashi got messed up.

ALmost every character except for Sakura, Chiyo, and Naruto in Part II has looked at Itachi in the eyes. They were put in genjutsu. Jiraiya did the same, and if Itachi was serious, he'd have put Jiraiya in a genjutsu as well. Same happened to Orochimaru, so we can surmise Orochimaru would be taken out by ITachi using genjutsu and then speedblitzing to chop his head off with a kunai.

No, you put Jiraiya in a Genjutsu, assuming this would automatically happen in a fight since he had done it to other characters. You assume Jiraiya would be the same.

When did Tsunade punch Kisame?

Why wouldn't Jiraiya be the same? What makes him different from at least 4 other characters we have seen fight Itachi? Only characters that haven't fallen to Itachi's genjutsu in a fight were Sakura, Asuma, and Chiyo, and that's because Itachi wasn't focusing on them or was concerned about them. Even if JIraiya tries kage bunshin, he'd need to not look at Itachi's eyes or finger otherwise he's in a genjutsu. The kage bunshin can be taken out as well.

She never did, but Kisame was able to take two or three extremely strong attacks and still move. He survived a known one-shot hit, even.

Itachi and Kisame never fought Jiraiya again. I don't need anymore proof it's all in the manga. Whether you accept it or not is your issue, sure Itachi has badass MS moves which seemingly don't have many knowable counters, Kisame knew this however and yet still supported Itachi's claims, why would he do that If Itachi was lying?



But of course.

Yes you do need proof. Itachi and Kisame never came across Jiraiya, they had no need to. I actually have proof that both can beat Jiraiya and the other two Sannin. I also have proof Itachi was lying or at the least, didn't mean what he said about losing to Jiraiya or tying at best. Jiraiya has no counter for any of Itachi's MS, with possible exception of bunshins.

Kisame believed in Jiraiya's hype? Kisame thought Itachi knew better and thus believed him? Kisame changed his mind after they were running though.

How does Jiraiya even have counter for something he doesn't know, though? He never knew about Amaterasu, probably doesn't know about Tsukuyomi, and wouldn't know about Susano'o. Orochimaru might, Tsunade should if we're counting current chapter. Rather, she should know Susano'o.



Provide proof that Jiraiya can beat itachi OR Kisame. Without the same old Toad Mouth Bind. if Itachi didn't have genjutsu prowess or MS, I could see the Sannin winning, but Itachi's just too good a matchup against the Sannin. At least with Kisame.

[jaymizzo]

Nagato's only accomplishment was killing Jiraiya, which he failed to do on his first go. And it took surprise and six bodies to do so.

Oh no no no no.... Nagato has much more accomplishments than that. He literally leveled Konoha with little effort and could have murderstomped Naruto from the get go and returned with plenty of chakra left to nuke two more villages.

Even with his powers on cool down and holding back he still manhandled Naruto and even had time to tell him a little story.

Though technically not Nagato, he was able to completely roflstomp RM Naruto and Bee with again, little effort. And if Nagato had pulled all those bodies from the get go and gone all out on Jiraiya, oh god... it wouldnt have been pretty for the sage.

I do agree that Match ups do count though.

P.S. Nagato didnt have any help whatsoever, those bodies are part of his jutsu. Konan didnt do much more than bicker in his ear. He could have literally nuked Konoha out of existence. I mean... Konoha would just be a memory

[Rikudou King]

No, against Sasuke he used Tsukuyomi once, and was fatigued, Amaterasu twice, and his eye turned blind. Susano'o is spammable because it uses the life force, and not that much chakra apparently, but other Ms jutsus are expensive.
Still that part of the manga does not make sense, first Itachi and Kisame said that they couldn't handle Jiraiya, then Kisame, while fleeing, says that Itachi could've handled him alone.

Itachi used Tsukuyomi twice, the first to explain Madara's past and he was only fatigued because Sasuke broke it. While he used two Amaterasu, he was able to use it for five different attacks. As we have seen with Sasuke, using multiple MS attacks may be costly but not so much that they are limited to only a few.

[insid3rkill3r]

In his fight against Sasuke,,, he didnt get fatigue after the use of Tsukuyomi... he felt the side effects of Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi, thats vastly different.

He used, as far as MS techniques goes ;

Tsukuyomi
Amaterasu
Amaterasu
Sealed Amaterasu's flames
Summoned Susano which tanked Kirin
Summoned Susano afterwards
Sealed an Amaterasu into Sasuke to protect him from Tobi

Susano just like any other MS technique should cost a lot of chakra, it's just that on top of that, it puts a hell of a pain on the body the longer you use it.


Like it was said, MS techniques are said to cost a lot of chakra, but going with that, The Uchiha are praised for having a significient amount of chakra and especially a strong one, being able to use something like 5-7 of them on top of other jutsus is not a small amount, it's quite a lot of firepower considering that these jutsu can 1 shot high rated opponents.

---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 PM ----------

The entirety of the Naruto manga for vanyar:

Naruto manga begins:

http://www.mangareader.net/93-149-9/...apter-144.html

Nauto manga ends.

Congratulations on having completed reading the manga! You've surpassed us all!

I loled

[Uchiha_Blood]

Itachi used Tsukuyomi twice, the first to explain Madara's past and he was only fatigued because Sasuke broke it. While he used two Amaterasu, he was able to use it for five different attacks. As we have seen with Sasuke, using multiple MS attacks may be costly but not so much that they are limited to only a few.

true, but we saw that dr Snakes against Danzou used Amaterasu once and was panting, Tsukuyomi is a non-issue because his Tsukuyomi is a weak one, so it likely doesn't cost that much chakra.
There is also the issue of blindness, since, with MS, the more the jutsus are used, the more heavy the backlash is after

[zimbardo]

Tsukuyomi is a non-issue because his Tsukuyomi is a weak one, so it likely doesn't cost that much chakra.

Or - Because he is bad at Tsukuyomi, and therefore all he can manage is a weak one, his chakra usage is more than is required for the technique. Therefore it could just as likely be a very costly technique for Sasuke.
That said, he is better at Ametarasu - so perhaps, following the same line of thought, this could be less costly.

[Rikudou King]

true, but we saw that dr Snakes against Danzou used Amaterasu once and was panting, Tsukuyomi is a non-issue because his Tsukuyomi is a weak one, so it likely doesn't cost that much chakra.
There is also the issue of blindness, since, with MS, the more the jutsus are used, the more heavy the backlash is after

That was due to him using Susanoo beforehand for a while, as Tobi mentioned. We saw against Ee that he could shoot Amaterasu without panting or needing rest. And his Tsukuyomi isn't weak.

Both Sasuke and Itachi have used their MS half a dozen times in battle before even risking blindness, so Itachi would be able to use his MS with no trouble in this battle before risking blindness.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Or - Because he is bad at Tsukuyomi, and therefore all he can manage is a weak one, his chakra usage is more than is required for the technique. Therefore it could just as likely be a very costly technique for Sasuke.
That said, he is better at Ametarasu - so perhaps, following the same line of thought, this could be less costly.

You know, it makes a lot of sense, since, except the first time ( or the time with Shi, if it was likely a MS Genjutsu ) Sasuke used Tsukuyomi without an issue.
Against Danzou he did twice, and the second time didn't even cover his eye.
Yes, I can actually see something like that

---------- Post added at 08:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:21 AM ----------

And his Tsukuyomi isn't weak.

Not only his Tsukuyomi is weak, it is a weak Genjutsu. Not a weak Tsukuyomi, a weak Genjutsu.

[Rikudou King]

Not only his Tsukuyomi is weak, it is a weak Genjutsu. Not a weak Tsukuyomi, a weak Genjutsu.

It is Tsukuyomi. There would be no other reason to compare it to Itachi's Tsukuyomi and then comment on the lack of time manipulation if they were using two completely different techniques.

[Uchiha_Blood]

It is Tsukuyomi. There would be no other reason to compare it to Itachi's Tsukuyomi and then comment on the lack of time manipulation if they were using two completely different techniques.

But Danzou commented on the lack of control, not Tobi

Still, better return in-topic, would the recent developement in which Sage Mode returns to be a powerful Mode be able to turn the tables for the Sannins?
If it will be proved to be superior to Genjutsu, then imho yes, if not Itachi still solos Jiraiya

[insid3rkill3r]

Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is weak compared to Itachi's ... but it's still Tsukuyomi, likely the strongest visual genjutsu out there.

Danzo even congratulated Sasuke on being able to trap him into a genjutsu when he still had Izanagi active... meaning this was not an easy feat to accomplish but quite the opposit.

---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

But Danzou commented on the lack of control, not Tobi

Still, better return in-topic, would the recent developement in which Sage Mode returns to be a powerful Mode be able to turn the tables for the Sannins?
If it will be proved to be superior to Genjutsu, then imho yes, if not Itachi still solos Jiraiya

I dont see why it would change anything here... as we saw what Jiraiya can do in sage mode... it wont bring anything new to what we saw from him.

And Orochimaru couldnt achieve sage mode, which is why he went and tried to grasp a part of its power by creating the cursed seal.

If you're talking about the part of being able to be one with nature, from what we are seeing this is purely connected to the dragon sage mode as Jiraiya clearly didnt have sensing abilities when he fought against Pain... otherwise he wouldnt have gotten hit by Asura path.

[jdw]

I dont see why it would change anything here... as we saw what Jiraiya can do in sage mode... it wont bring anything new to what we saw from him.

And Orochimaru couldnt achieve sage mode, which is why he went and tried to grasp a part of its power by creating the cursed seal.

If you're talking about the part of being able to be one with nature, from what we are seeing this is purely connected to the dragon sage mode as Jiraiya clearly didnt have sensing abilities when he fought against Pain... otherwise he wouldnt have gotten hit by Asura path.

Toad Sage mode does provide sensing abilities and permits the user to become one with Nature. Jiraiya, however, was not a perfect Sage like Naruto, so that might explain some things. Naruto, a Toad Sage, is my proof.

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood

Itachi used:
1 Tsukuyomi
3x Amaterasu, 1 of them is stoping Amaterasu and that counts as 1 use of it, Sasuke needed to make an effort with his MS to cast that.
2 usses of Susano, 1 got blasted into oblivion by Kirin.
1x of IMPLANTING Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye.

That would be 7 usses of MS Jutsus. Susano also gives you insane pain to use it. So YES, he used 7 MS jutsus, now how you consider there chakra costs and what not is another thing. Now consider this was a close to death, in insane pain and spitting blood, half blind Itachi and imagine what he could do at 100%.

Its a blasted lie.

[Uchiha_Blood]

@Uchiha_Blood

Itachi used:
1 Tsukuyomi
3x Amaterasu, 1 of them is stoping Amaterasu and that counts as 1 use of it, Sasuke needed to make an effort with his MS to cast that.
2 usses of Susano, 1 got blasted into oblivion by Kirin.
1x of IMPLANTING Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye.

That would be 7 usses of MS Jutsus. Susano also gives you insane pain to use it. So YES, he used 7 MS jutsus, now how you consider there chakra costs and what not is another thing. Now consider this was a close to death, in insane pain and spitting blood, half blind Itachi and imagine what he could do at 100%.

Its a blasted lie.

Dunno what you're addressing, but I'll try to respond.

If Itachi, at 100%, would've wanted to forfet his eyes then yes, he could've done the same he did against Sasuke
And we don't know if Susano'o uses chakra, the users always commented on the toll it has on one's body, not one's chakra. And when sealing Amaterasu is stated to be a MS jutsu? For all intent and purpose, it is a fuuinjutsu.
And stopping Amaterasu isn't an Amaterasu usage, it seems to "only" affect the eyes in some way. Keep in mind that the more is MS spammage, the more blindness he got, to the point where Sasuke turned almost blind in a day
And using Susano'o in an istant isn't a MS jutsu per se, I doubt the toll would be that heavy, he received great damage from Kirin, not the instant-summoning of Susano'o. We saw with Sasuke that summoning Susano'o for brief periods of time it is not taxating, so he used arguably 5 MS jutsu, and he was on death door.
Why do you think he is spamming MS only now that he is an Edo? Because he has, for all intent and purpose, an EMS, since his body and likely his eyes can't deteriorate

even Sasuke didn't spam MS jutsus except for Susano'o

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood

Dunno what you're addressing, but I'll try to respond.

Then read you last post before this(addresed to me)...

If Itachi, at 100%, would've wanted to forfet his eyes then yes, he could've done the same he did against Sasuke

This does not mean anything. The lie was about his inability to keep fighting and not his fear of going blind. There is no indication in his words that he is running away because he needs to protect his eyes.

And we don't know if Susano'o uses chakra, the users always commented on the toll it has on one's body, not one's chakra.

First off the toll on his body would be from chakra exhaustion or stamina exhaustion. Susano puts an OBVIOUS and CLEAR strain on the eyes... Itachi was not running because he was empty on chakra.
About the chakra cost:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/466/8
Karin states it then here when he get's more chakra he busts out:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/466/11
Not what he states that are "replenshed".

And when sealing Amaterasu is stated to be a MS jutsu? For all intent and purpose, it is a fuuinjutsu.

It is fuuinjutsu but it is also a MS jutsu in the form of Amaterasu sealed inside. Itachi would need to cast it himself. Just look at the eyes Sasuke is using when he is casting that:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/397/2
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/397/3
Its Itachi's MS eye...
What exacly do you think Itachi sealed there? Popcorn?

And stopping Amaterasu isn't an Amaterasu usage, it seems to "only" affect the eyes in some way. Keep in mind that the more is MS spammage, the more blindness he got, to the point where Sasuke turned almost blind in a day

It is a MS jutsu that has everything to do with Amaterasu. If it costs as much i got no idea.
It looks just as bad as casting Amaterasu, look at his eyes:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/415/6
He is in pain and dizzy after:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/415/7
Another use and he is again in pain:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/415/10

So we have direct evidence that it does put a good amounth of strain on the eye.

And using Susano'o in an istant isn't a MS jutsu per se, I doubt the toll would be that heavy

Of course it is. After his fight with Danzou when he tried to force his eyes (after Tobi told him to rest) to force Susano up he whent almost completly blind.
For Susano you need to have awaken both eyes (tsuk and Ama) and use both of your eyes.

Also yes its a CLEAR and the most potent MS jutsu they have. This needs to be cast with both eyes compared to the other 2.

he received great damage from Kirin, not the instant-summoning of Susano'o. We saw with Sasuke that summoning Susano'o for brief periods of time it is not taxating,

Sasuke NEVER got Susano blasted to pieces and then Summoned it again. Susano is in a sense solidified chakra... If that chakra is lost then the user needs to provide it again, its not created out of magic. As i showed you in the link above Sasuke failed to form the advanced version because he was missing chakra. Also to summon it you need to activate your eyes for it.

so he used arguably 5 MS jutsu, and he was on death door.

No, that is 7 and he was there because he was SICK and almost completly blind. He was spitting blood because he was close to death from the beggining.

Why do you think he is spamming MS only now that he is an Edo? Because he has, for all intent and purpose, an EMS, since his body and likely his eyes can't deteriorate

Preserving his eyes is all good and nice but stating he can't fighting no more and he needs to rest is completly another thing. You don't see him there stating they need to run because he needs to protect his eyes now do you?

even Sasuke didn't spam MS jutsus except for Susano'o

He spammed it when he started to know how to do so. Just count the numbers of Amaterasu and Amaterasu manipulation usages in his fight with Raikage.