Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

[vanyar]

Itachi can disagree all he wants... that doesn't make it any more believable when everything else we've actually seen tells a different story.

It's not believable because you don't want to accept it. What we have seen ability wise is subjective, we don't know how they would be used against each other. Itachi and Kisame when it comes to this discussion are excellent sources, why refute them?

If Itachi told you he's a two headed ogre with purple skin and blonde pigtails, would you take that as a 100% fact too? Even though your eyes are telling you something else?

The issue is though you see a deception, I don't. He had no reason to lie, even then why would Kisame agree with him?

If thats so then have fun with that... I'll prefer to use logic and make myself a picture and form an opinion by taking into account everything else that happened, because words can be deceiving, actions not.

That doesn't sound like fact though. It sounds like your forming a subjective view based on your own opinion of each others abilities.

[Rikudou King]

Itachi was clearly lying. I don't see how that can be doubted when he literally has the means to instantly one shot anyone using his Totsuka Blade. That's not even factoring in Susanoo itself, the defensive power of the Yata Mirror, or Amaterasu. Seriously, Jiraiya has no way to counter what Itachi could throw at him and this isn't even taking into account his intelligence and genjutsu ability. Kisame too with what he showed should be able to handle anything Jiraiya threw at him.

As for the battle at hand, Itachi creates a clone and both of them charge Tsunade and Orochimaru while Kisame goes after Jiraiya. When he gets the opening, Itachi uses a paralyzing genjutsu on the two Sannins and then strikes them down before they can react. He then joins the fight with Jiraiya and does likewise. Or Itachi activates his MS, launches three Amaterasus at each Sannin and then sits back as they burn. Anyone who manages to survive can be deal with by Kisame.

[chilibun]

Evidence or opinion?

Itachi's Susanoo tanked a Kirin. Sasuke's riblet Susanoo tanked mulltiple attacks from Raikage, who has the strength to cut off Hachibi's horn. ET Madara's Susanoo tanked Naruto's chou rasengan. Susanoo is damn durable and Itachi has Yata's mirror. I have plenty of reasons to believe it can tank anything Jiraiya can throw at it.

Itachi's Tsukuyomi instantly crippled Kakashi, who has an anti-genjutsu weapon, the sharingan. He has also put both Orochimaru and Kurenai, who are both better genjutsu users than Jiraiya, under a genjutsu with ease. I have no reason to think Jiraiya can do better than those 3.

Itachi's Amaterasu creates flames near instantaneously at the eye's focus. It is said to be unavoidable by multiple high level ninjas. Sasuke and Bee, who are both exceptionally fast could not dodge it. RS Naruto couldn't even react to it, when Itachi torched Nagato's dog. He just stood there dumbfounded. Only Raikage, at max speed has shown to be able to avoid it. Jiraiya is not as fast a Ee, RS Naruto, or Sasuke and Bee for that matter. Again, I have reason to think Jiraiya has the ability to counter it.

So, yes. The manga has given me every reason to believe Itachi is more powerful than Jiraiya, but it is only my opinion. If you think Jiraiya can hit harder than Kirin, the Raikage, Naruto's chou rasengan; can better escape genjutsu than Kakashi, Oro, and Kurenai; and move as fast as max speed Ee, then I'm not even going to try and convince you otherwise. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Impossibility]

It is reasonable, yes, I agree. It might be a symptom, it might not be. Since it is unknown, there is no basis to provide free stamina and thus free chakra, imo. We can address the known symptoms and move on.

During Itachi's fight against Sasuke commented on the Itachi's slowed reflexes. Itachi's death itself can be used as an indicator of his decreased stamina. Not everything requires an explicit statement of fact from the manga for us to come to logical conclusions when necessary.

[jdw]

Even if we don't require a statement of fact for every logical conclusion, where do we draw the line? Do we say the sickness harmed all of his datebook stats and give him a boost across the board?

Let's say we agree that Itachi's sickness harmed his stamina, for the sake of this discussion, a pretty important question has to then be answered:

• Did the sickness harm Itachi's lowly 2.5 stamina, making it worse, or did the sickness reduce his stamina to 2.5 from a greater number?

Let's hear you on this.

[M3J]

Well Itachi pretty much stated himself that Jiraiya was too tough for him. Itachi and Kisame pretty much fled when Jiraiya confronted them.

It's a no brainer, Sannin take this no problem.

When they were running away, Kisame said Itachi could have taken on Jiraiya. Itachi never refuted this fact, but he said to wait and that he needed to rest. This means Itachi was secretly protecting Konoha, and he considered Jiraiya challenging enough to not go against him without full power despite Kisame with him.

By your logic, if Tenten says she can beat Pain, that means you think she can and that it's true. Just by herself against six bodies with six different powers and no limitation that Pain had against Naruto. She knows her own skills, and she's heard about Pain's skills, no doubt. If she still thinks she can win, then she'll win.

Jiraiya has shown nothing that can beat Itachi. No speed feats out of Sage Mode, no destructive attacks, no genjutsu ability. His only hope is Swamp of the Underworld, which can be absorbed by Kisame.

it wasnt only itachi who praised jiraiya . kisame also agreed to what itachi said using his own evaluation , if it was just a lie to save konoha , kisame wouldnt buy it

and for gods sake , jiraiya is the only person we saw sealing amaterasu , how is it -having no counter- ? orochimaru can switch bodies and tsunade can regenerate infinitely

and itachi CAN NOT spam those techs . 1 tsukiyomi and 1 amaterasu was his limit ,later on he used them both together with susanoo and he died

itachi has his limits but the sannins are all spam types

But then Kisame said Itachi could beat Jiraiya. Kisame asked why they needed to retreat.

Itachi Amaterasu's Jiraiya. Jiraiya is busy sealing the Amaterasu away while in pain. Then he feels something in his stomach. Surprise, Sword of Totsuka! Jiraiya can't seal Amaterasu when it's on him, and even if he can, that leaves him open.

He used one Tsukuyomi, two Amaterasu at the least, the second one chasing Sasuke, and Susano'o twice that he was able to keep up for at least a minute. He also used one or two katon jutsu. Itachi has enough chakra to take on the Sannin, especially since he can one-shot with his Tsukuyomi.

No one but Sasuke has a counter to Tsukuyomi. Only Orochimaru has a counter to Amaterasu if he gets hit. Only Jiraiya can counter Susano'o with his Swamp of the Underworld, which Kisame can counter with Samehada.

During Itachi's fight against Sasuke commented on the Itachi's slowed reflexes. Itachi's death itself can be used as an indicator of his decreased stamina. Not everything requires an explicit statement of fact from the manga for us to come to logical conclusions when necessary.

Slowed reflexes can come from being nearly blind, as he couldn't really see the shuriken. Itachi used more chakra and showed less exhaustion in his fight against Sasuke than he did in his fight against Kakashi and running away from Jiraiya.

I don't think Itachi should get increased stamina.

[jdw]

Not only Sasuke has a counter to Tsukuyomi. Killer Bee has a counter to Tsukuyomi.

As Jiraiya in in sage mode, there is a possibility that he can be aided by Ma and/or Pa. Not foolproof, but he has two partners attached to him.

[ninjabot]

I actually never give Itachi any greater speed or stamina when the thread creator says "Healthy Itachi", because we've no way to guage whether a healthy Itachi is considerably stronger and faster... or just by a hair's length. And yet it doesn't change my opinion at all. We've seen entirely too much to think Jiraiya has a realistic chance of winning against either ninja in a one on one fight (how'd I know this was gonna turn into a Jiraiya vs. Itachi fight instead of a Sannin vs. Itachi and Kisame fight?) outside of what has gradually been revealed to be a blatant lie.

Jiraiya isn't good enough to defeat Itachi. Likely isn't good enough to defeat Kisame, and most certainly isn't good enough to beat both of them at the same time. If Orochimaru wasn't so easily handled and Tsunade so... "meh", I could probably give the Sannin better chances. Unfortunately, we've seen how easily Itachi can deal with Oro, how much of a non-threat Tsunade is against anyone with any real movement speed and anti-healing attacks (Amaterasu, Totsuka). I can't see them winning.

On another note, I just realized that if Kisame was so enclined, he could completely negate Tsunade's Souzou Saisei with Daikoudan. It's a ninjutsu that pumps chakra through her body at alarming rates right? The giant water shark should simply swallow her and grow.

[M3J]

Not only Sasuke has a counter to Tsukuyomi. Killer Bee has a counter to Tsukuyomi.

As Jiraiya in in sage mode, there is a possibility that he can be aided by Ma and/or Pa. Not foolproof, but he has two partners attached to him.

Killerbee has a bijuu, he doesn't count. Plus, it's Sasuke's Tsukuyomi, not Itachi's. Pretty sure one second or three wouldn't be enough for Ma, Pa, or Killerbee to help their partner break out. That's all Itachi needed to weaken Kakashi severely, though I'm sure with Jiraiya, it won't be an one-shot thing.




Orochimaru's main problem with Itachi's genjutsu was that it made it harder to break out. With support, I'm sure Orochimaru should be able to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. We saw him slowly moving his arms until Itachi decided to cut his hand off. Without Jiraiya or Tsunade though, Orochimaru's dead since Itachi or Kisame can kill him.

[Oathencrantz]

What the... How can Samehada absorb Swamp of the Underworld? All of a sudden it can swallow up a lake of mud?

Anyway, I've seen everything of Itachi from part 1 to part 2 of the manga and compared it to Jiraiya's body of work, and nothing suggests to me that they're not on the same level. Saying Itachi has never been 100% or he never tries is pointless, we've still seen everything he can do. We've most definitely seen him try versus Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai as he was not above killing or allowing them to be killed. Let's just thank Gai for the save.

None of The Sannin have immobile legs like Nagato, so Itachi's not going to have an easy time one-shotting ANY of them with the Sword of Totsuka; especially with the amount of bodies, summons and ninjutsu flying around simultaneously.

"Genjutsu at that level has no effect on me..."

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v16/c141/14.html

This implies to me that genjutsu of a certain level will have an effect on Itachi and it's possible the Frog Song is of such a caliber. The Sharingan isn't just some free ticket out of genjutsu as Kotoamatsukami has proved.

---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 PM ----------

Say if Itachi does indeed defeat Jiriaya, he's going to be worn out to such an extent that he'll be easy pickings for Orochimaru.

[M3J]

It can absorb the chakra, no?


Since people like taking characters' words for it, why not take Kakashi's word that Itachi wasn't even using half of his power? He could have easily Amaterasu'd Asuma, Kurenai, and/or Kakashi if he wanted. Itachi was basically standing still, using two or three jutsu. How was he even trying? And, no one has shown the strength to match Kisame's. Orochimaru and Jiraiya's ninjutsu can be absorbed by Samehada or Great Shark Missile - only Tsunade has a chance, and even then her punches may not be enough to really take out Kisame.

I highly doubt Itachi will be that worn out against Jiraiya. Even if he was, he still has Kisame to back him up against Orochimaru. If need be, Itachi can just do a genjutsu on Orochimaru and immobilize him for a while while he recovers or so Kisame can attack Orochimaru.

Frog Song apparently needs time for preparation. If Itachi or Kisame hears the song, either of them can try to stop Ma and Pa.

[Oathencrantz]

It can absorb the chakra, no?

Yes, but how would that affect the bog that's already been produced?

[M3J]

Take away the ability to sink?

[chilibun]

Yes, but how would that affect the bog that's already been produced?

All products of ninjutsu are theoretically produced by chakra, so the chrakra that transformed the swamp will be eaten reverting it back to regular land or the swamp would be transfromed into chakra and then eaten. Regardless of how logical it is or is not, Samehada and Nagato has been shown to absorb ninjustsu manipulated chakra, so that's just how it is.

Not only Sasuke has a counter to Tsukuyomi. Killer Bee has a counter to Tsukuyomi.

As Jiraiya in in sage mode, there is a possibility that he can be aided by Ma and/or Pa. Not foolproof, but he has two partners attached to him.

Sasuke is an exceptional genjutsu user and has an anti-genjuts weapon, the sharingan. Jiraiya don't have those advantages. Bee got caught in the genjutsu resulting in him faceplanting into the ground. Hachibee only moments later broke him out of it. Itachi's Tsukuyomi is superior to Sasuke's in that it controls the perception of time. So even if Jiraiya's frog buddies broke him out of Tsukuyomi, he still would have felt the the full extent of the genjutsu, causing extreme mental fatigue. Kakashi got knocked into a coma for weeks (or months, I forgot).

[Oathencrantz]

Would it? Maybe, maybe not. At least not instantaneously. But say it does for the sake of no argument, it can still trap and stall Susnao'o for valuable moments as I mentioned earlier on in the thread.