Naruto + Hinata = sage reborn?

[GyoMasta]

What analytical debate? Is stating facts now egocentric?

You posted a thread about Naruto and Hinata having a child which would be a mixing of the body and eyes of the Sage of the Six Paths. The Sage being reborn through them is in your thread title. You base this on a rumor that Kishimoto wrote 8 years ago in the manga and never was confirmed or addressed again. And that your belief the byakugan is closer to the rinnegan than the sharingan. I just stated facts written in the manga that don't support this. The story as it is written doesn't support this. It has nothing to do with how I feel. Outside of I should have written "I feel" the Hyuuga are minor secondary characters rather than stating that as a fact. But do you want to challenge that as inaccurate?

Don't get snippy because someone challenges what you wrote. You won't last long with that attitude.


There was no analysis taking place. I just repeated what he said.


Kurenai's eyes are red. Does that mean she has the sharingan? Gaara has red hair. Does that mean he is an Uzumaki?

"I think they look closer to the byakugan than the sharingan" is just your opinion. Not something you can base a real theory on. You need more than that.


This is your conjecture. Not Kishimoto's. Kishimoto said there were two sons. One was the Senju ancestor. And the other the Uchiha ancestor. The Hyuuga were not mentioned. When Kishimoto bothers to explain what connection the Hyuuga have to the Uchiha, then I will listen. Otherwise you are just whistling into the wind.

Your purported facts are but misinterpretations of Kishi's writing, taking what Tobi said to be truth.

Firstly, Tobi's recount of the entire situation was suspect from the start. He was obviously biased and/or manipulating information to control Sasuke. Did you read what he said of the Kyuubi's attack on the village? He said it was a freak natural disaster when it has clearly been shown he was the one who brought it in. He also called himself Madara when he wasn't.

Secondly, what do you mean 'rumour Kishi has never confirmed'? The fact that he included it in the manga to begin with is basis enough for speculation on what he had and has planned.

You don't even see the uncertainty of the whole speculation issue do you? My first post had the conjecture statement ending with a question mark. It was open for discussion.

Don't get snippy in here because you have insecurities in your life. We're here to debate manga, not shoot speculations down with specious 'facts'.

As above, you repeated what Tobi said. A person I just showed to have been lying on various occasions to get his way.

I agree. Looking closer to the byakugan than the sharingan is a tiny observation.

That's why I did not base my theory on it.

I wrote heaps of text, and you focus on that one paragraph instead?

You don't really know how to peruse do you?

Firstly, Kishi did not say it through reliable sources, e.g. Kakashi. Kishi had Tobi say it. From the view of someone trying to claim Uchiha superiority, I'd say he'd focus terribly much on painting the ancestor as the 'Uchiha daddy'. As above, Tobi has been shown to be untruthful as well. His motives and character are suspect.

Secondly, it also does not exclude the possibility of other descendants being under the ancestor. You don't quite understand the meaning of ancestor do you? You can call any single person above you in the family tree "Jessie Ancestor" when looking from your point of view. So your great grandfather only descended into the one true Jessie?

Thirdly, we were always discussing from the writer's viewpoint, analysing what could have happened. I myself pointed out above that there is a very strong possibility that Kishi might never revisit his own rumour, which could have been ill-planned writing in lieu of a retcon. We were always discussing as people reading a manga, analysing Kishi's next moves.

How can you claim certainty of his motives? "When Kishimoto bothers to explain...". So you're saying we can't analyse and extrapolate based on what Kishi has done so far, and must sit back in our chairs and keep quiet until Kishi does something? Why have a manga forum then? This was a conjecture thread to begin with, where the original hypothesis was shown to be laced with uncertainty (ending in a question mark). You come in here and start screaming "you can't draw your own radical conclusions of Kishi's plans until Kishi actually says it explicitly!". What?

We're all just supposed to cross our eyes and await spoonfeeding? We can't try to piece evidences together to form a possible situation, one of many that could one day eventually be proven true/false?

This is the most tenuous argument in your entire episode of tomfoolery thus far and screams of a person who has lost faith in analysis and extrapolation. In any case, I digress, back to the topic please.

I'm with Jessie on that one. Kishi used Kakashi with suggest that there was a rumor about the Uchiha having its origin in Hyuuga during the Chuunin Exam. But taht was long ago. While we have a whole set of chapters implicitly and explicitly linking UCHiha with Rikudou while (implicitly) taking Hyuuga/Byakugan out of the equation.

You said you found Byakugan superior to the Sharingan and closer to the Rinnigan and that a combiantion of it with Naruto's Uzumaki/Senju blood would give birth to something closer to Rikudou's Kekkei Genkai than anything we've seen so foar from other with Rinnegan/Sharingan powers. The problem is taht Sharingan is coloser in abilities to Rinnegan than the Byakugan is.

Byakugan is just a see/er (a hugely good one though)
while both Sharingan (I'll call Sharingan the conventional up to the EMS) and Rinnegan are see-ers and do-ers.

Harsh simplification but also harsh truth.

-Sharingan seems to get its copying/reproducing abilities from the Rinnegan's ability to generate anykind of ninja jutsu/abilities (in katon, suiton, raiton, doton, fuuton, onmyou(yin+yang))

-Both Sharingan (S) and Rinnegan (R) can see through the principle generating a jutsu simply by looking at it (the Byakugan (B) can also dothat I think)

-Both S and R can reach within someone's Inner soul realm

-Both S&R can control others

-Both can Uchiha and the Rikudou Elder are renown for the outstanding chakra (just look at 16 y-o Sasuke and the chakra he emits than compare with 17 y-o Neji... says it all. Also look at 13 y-o Itachi who was able to use MS and Tsukuyomi without falling on ground while 29 went to bed for a week when using Kamui)

-Both S&R can "summon" spiritual-linked creatures than can affect spirits/souls and seal them and being (Enma, Susano'o, Gedo Mazo)

-The doujutsu and spiritual energy of the Uchiha, inherited from the Sage, enables them to resiste and repel any unsharingan-based genjutsu and have genjutsu more powerful than others.

-Both S&R can generate Ninjutsu techniques(Amaterasu, Susano'o, Kamui, Shinra Tensei, Gedo Rinne Jutsu, while Byakugan can't do any such thing.

-The sipirtual, doujutsu and control abilities of the Uchiha eye is further linked to Rinnegan when we see Sasuke litarally taking control over another dimension that Orochimaru created ("Against these eyes of mine, all of your jutsus... are useless"),
the way Uchiha can enter someone's mind, the way both Rikudou-able ninja and Uchiha can control bijuu. Sasuke didn't even acquired the Mangekyou that he could already repel Kyuubi's chakra inside Naruto.
Things Byakugan obviously can't do. Since it's just a see-er not a do-er.

-Note the similarities between MS: Susano'o Sacred treasures and Rikudou's 5 treasures.

-The Izanagi ability (although Uchiha's isn't as good as Rikudou's)

-Madara combined Hashirama's DNA with his and what happened? Rinnegan.



-The fact that Orochimaru and Kabuto's genetic research directly linked Sharingan with Rinnegan, not Byakugan. And considering Orochimaru's knowledge and genetic material ressources, if Hyuuga were as or closer related to Rikudou than are Uchiha, he would have turned his attention towards one of them instead of Sasuke and Itachi. It would have been easier... "and the result would better" than with an Uchiha. Wouldn't it?

Tobi used one of the best ways to tell a lie: he included verifiable truth in it. But the manga speaks volume about the genuine blood bond between Uchiha, Rikudou and Senju, while Hyuuga is left aside. Tsunade didn't seem to doubt the story Kakashi told her about the whole Itachi, Uchiha/Senju and 4th World War Affairs and reasons, ans she is a Senju/Uzumaki. She must know her history and thus the link between her clans and the Uchiha and Rikudou, she must have had clan archives or elders to testify such a thing.

Nothing is said about Hyuuga/Uchiha/Rikudou so far, just a rumour of years ago.

Notice also that Danzo didn't try to combine Hyuuga and Hashirama's DNA but Uchiha and Senju Hashirama's DNAs. Why not Hyuuga, if it better or linked too? Notice that Tobi didn't put Byakugan anywhere in the list of proficiency for reading the Secret Tablet (which Uchiha inherited, a big thing too). Kabuto could have had make one of his Edo Tensei bring that Hyuuga they've captured (Tokuma or something) and use him for his experiment like he could use the Zetsu Tobi promised him to have and like the thing he did with Yamato, to create a Rikudou Kekkei Genkai replica for himself of himself, but didn't. But surely if he could have spotted Sasuke with them (the Edo Tensei shinobi) he would have tried to capture him for his Uchiha body and to achieve Rinnegan or something with the Hashirama DNA sample. If Hyuuga were that close to Rikudou compared to Uchiha, that is.

And Uchiha are more powerful that Hyuuga, this thing is clearly said. They and Senju were, by far, the co-most skilled and powerful shinobi clans of the Endless War Era(because they had Rikudou's superior blood and their ancestors received the best teaching/training compared to others) and Uchiha kept being called Konoha's Strongest Clan. The one time Hyuuga was called the strongest was only by Hiashi, AFTER the Uchiha were gone, i.e. 2nd becomes 1st when former-1st leaves.

And Tobi knows and says more about Uchiha/Senju/Rikudou than does Kakashi and his claims about the links between Uchiha and Hyuuga. Both he and Itachi should have mentioned Byakugan/Hyuuga in there story about the secrets of the Mangekyou and Rikudou Sennin.

Kishi might well hav left the Hyuuga thing behind and/or changed things. Mokuton was defined as Hijutsu/Hiden in the 1st/2nd databook, but afterward it became Kekkei Genkai in Part 2 (Shippuden). Things such as these change with the rpogression of the story, it would seem.

[hyper_megaman]

I'm with Jessie on that one. Kishi used Kakashi with suggest that there was a rumor about the Uchiha having its origin in Hyuuga during the Chuunin Exam. But taht was long ago. While we have a whole set of chapters implicitly and explicitly linking UCHiha with Rikudou while (implicitly) taking Hyuuga/Byakugan out of the equation.

You said you found Byakugan superior to the Sharingan and closer to the Rinnigan and that a combiantion of it with Naruto's Uzumaki/Senju blood would give birth to something closer to Rikudou's Kekkei Genkai than anything we've seen so foar from other with Rinnegan/Sharingan powers. The problem is taht Sharingan is coloser in abilities to Rinnegan than the Byakugan is.

Byakugan is just a see/er (a hugely good one though)
while both Sharingan (I'll call Sharingan the conventional up to the EMS) and Rinnegan are see-ers and do-ers.

Harsh simplification but also harsh truth.

-Sharingan seems to get its copying/reproducing abilities from the Rinnegan's ability to generate anykind of ninja jutsu/abilities (in katon, suiton, raiton, doton, fuuton, onmyou(yin+yang))

-Both Sharingan (S) and Rinnegan (R) can see through the principle genrating a jutsu simply by looking at it (the Byakugan (B) can also dothat I think)

-Both S and R can reach within someone's Inner soul realm

-Both S&R can control others

-Both can Uchiha and the Rikudou Elder are renown for the outstanding chakra (just look at 16 y-o Sasuke and the chakra he emits than compare with 17 y-p Neji... says it all. Also look at 13 y-o Itachi who was able to use MS and Tsukuyomi without falling on ground while 29 went to bed for a week when using Kamui)

-Both S&R can "summon" spiritual-linked creatures than can affect spirits/souls and seal them and being (Enma, Susano'o, Gedo Mazo)

-The doujutsu and spiritual energy of the Uchiha, inherited from the Sage, enables them to resiste and repel any unsharingan-based genjutsu and have genjutsu more powerful than others.

-Both S&R can generate Ninjutsu techniques(Amaterasu, Susano'o, Kamui, Shinra Tensei, Gedo Rinne Jutsu, while Byakugan can't any such thing.

-The sipirtual, doujutsu and control abilities of the Uchiha eye is further linked to Rinnegan when we see Sasuke litarally taking control over another dimension that Orochimaru created ("Against these eyes of mine, all of your jutsus... are useless"),
the way Uchiha can enter someone's mind, the way both can Rikudou-able ninja and Uchiha can control bijuu. Sasuke didn't even acquired the Mangekyou that he could alreeady repel Kyuubi's chakra inside Naruto.
Things Byakugan obviously can't do. Since it's just a see-er not a do-er.

-Note the similarities between MS: Susano'o Sacred treasures and Rikudou's 5 treasures.

-The Izanagi ability (although Uchiha's isn't as good as Rikudou's)

-Madara combined Hashirama's DNA with his and what happened? Rinnegan.



-The fact that Orochimaru and Kabuto's genetic research directly linked Sharingan with Rinnegan, not Byakugan. And considerign Orochimaru's knowledge and genetic material ressources, if Hyuuga were as or closer related to Rikudou than are Uchiha, he would have turned his attention towars one of them instead of Sasuke and Itachi. It would have been easier... "and the result would betetr" than with an Uchiha. Wouldn't it?

Tobi used one of teh best way to tell a lie: he included verifiable truth in it. But the manga speaks volume about the genuine blood bond between Uchiha, Rikudou and Senju, while Hyuuga is left aside. Tsunade didn't seem to doubt the story Kakashi told her about the whole Itachi, Uchiha/Senju and 4th World War Affairs and reasons, ans she is a Senju/Uzumaki. She must know her history and thus the likn bewtween her clans and the Uchiha and Rikudou, she must have had clan archives or elders to testify such a thing.

Nothing is said about Hyuuga/Uchiha/Rikudou so far, just a rumour of years ago.

Notice also that Danzo didn't try to combine Hyuuga and Hashirama's DNA but Uchiha and Senju Hashirama'S DNAs. Why not hyuuga, if it better or linked too? Notice that Tobi didn't put Byakugan anywhere in the list of proficiency for reading the Secret Tablet (which Uchiha inherited, a big thing too). Kabuto could have had make of of his Edo Tensei bring that Hyuuga they've captured (Tokuma or something) and use him for his experiment like he could use the Zetsu Tobi promised him to have and like the thing he did with Yamato, to create a Rikudou Kekkei Genkai replica for himself of himself, but didn't. But surely if he could have spot Sasuke with them he would have tried to capture him for his Uchiha body and to achieve Rinnegan or something with the Hashirama DNA sample. If Hyuuga were that close to Rikudou compared to Uchiha, that is.

And Uchiha are more powerful that Hyuuga, this thing is clearly said. They and Senju were, by far, the co-most skilled and powerful shinobi clans of the Endless War Era(because they had Rikudou's superior blood and their ancestors received the ebst teaching/training compared to others) and Uchiha kept being called Konoha's Strongest Clan. The one time Hyuuga was called the strongest was only by Hiashi, AFTER the Uchiha were gone, i.e. 2nd becomes 1st when former-1st leaves.

And Tobi knows and says more about Uchiha/Senju/Rikudou than does Kakashi and his claims about the links between Uchiha and Hyuuga. Both he and Itachi should have mentioned Byakugan/Hyuuga in there story about the secrets of the Mangekyou and Rikudou Sennin.

Kishi might well hav left the Hyuuga thing behind and/or changed thigns. Mokuton was defined as Hijutsu/Hiden in the 1st/2nd databook, but afterward it became Kekkei Genkai in Part 2 (Shippuden). Things such as these change with the rpogression of the story, it would seem.

I agree with most of what you said regarding this being a possible retcon, it definitely is a very strong possibility isn't it. Kishi isn't exactly rock solid with his continuity.

In any case that is still what some of us here hopes he will revisit.

---------- Post added March 22, 2012 at 05:20 AM ---------- Previous post was March 19, 2012 at 11:26 AM ----------

Now that Karin has been shown to be an uzumaki, karin+sasuke is another possible combination for the eyes and body of the sage to recombine.

Karin + sasuke vs naruto + hinata?

[Uchiha_Blood]

Now that Karin has been shown to be an uzumaki, karin+sasuke is another possible combination for the eyes and body of the sage to recombine.

Karin + sasuke vs naruto + hinata?

If Karin, after all this times and all the things that Sasuke did to her is still her fangirl, imho she loses the little worth she has up to this point by doing what Sakura couldn't, say "screw you to hell Sasuke!".

On topic, imho the Hyuugas can be related to the Uchihas like Uzumakis are related to Senjus, which would be basically what Kakashi said in part 1, only reversed.
Since the Rin'negan is the father of all Doujutsu, and the Sharingan is directly related to it, it makes sense that, along the way, an Uchiha could've went with another and formed another Doujutsu alltogether with each passing generations, like that swirly doujutsu of the son of Rikudou became the Sharingan

[xXan]

Man Naruto really needs to get laid... Really not relevant who she is :P But he better carefull if she is Sakura as if she squeezes he better be in Sage Mode or his little winky is getting squished.

Hinata on the other hand with her 360% view could help really help him out, i am sure he is VERY inexperienced. Hinata does look inocent but trust me those type of girls are really tricky...

Karin... Hmm that girl is somewhat like Kushina just more insane and she looks really experienced at ... err... you know. Naruto would probably bite her up

[hyper_megaman]

i'm thinking a dragonball-esque ending with the young goku descendant vs the young vegeta descendant at the end of the series

in this, we'll have 2 variants of rikudou-types, one from naruto/hinata, and the other from karin/sasuke, both blessed with ridiculous stamina and eye power since birth.

it's also possible their eye power will turn out different if supercharged with the uzumaki/senju naturally since their conception, who knows, it might just be what pushes the sharingan and possibly byakugan back into rinnegan (which could have been adaptations of the rinnegan from the shortage of stamina after rikudou's elder son failed to inherit it)

[Uchiha_Blood]

Man Naruto really needs to get laid... Really not relevant who she is :P But he better carefull if she is Sakura as if she squeezes he better be in Sage Mode or his little winky is getting squished.

Hinata on the other hand with her 360% view could help really help him out, i am sure he is VERY inexperienced. Hinata does look inocent but trust me those type of girls are really tricky...

Karin... Hmm that girl is somewhat like Kushina just more insane and she looks really experienced at ... err... you know. Naruto would probably bite her up

Imho there is a reason why the only one who was attracted to Naruto is a byakugan user, you know, the ones that could see through clothes add to that his unlimited stamina, and suddenly Hinata's obsession makes sense

[GyoMasta]

Imho there is a reason why the only one who was attracted to Naruto is a byakugan user, you know, the ones that could see through clothes add to that his unlimited stamina, and suddenly Hinata's obsession makes sense

Dude, i always thought the exact same thign, the same thing. She was always turning red because she was seeing through his clothes. 10 000 ryos on that!
the Byakugan trully is the one Kekeki Gennkai on which Jiraiya wouldn't have spitted on, that's for sure. Just imagine using it in the onsen!
(I'm getting out of subject, I think)

[kkck]

I guess it comes down to whether the hyuga have the same "power" as the uchiha. If it turns out their power is fundamentally the same as with the uchiha then there is no reason for which an union of the bloodlines would not potentially bring about another rikudo (unless the rikudo used his power to safeguard against that all those centuries ago). It really does not seem like the hyuga have the same power as the uchiha though.... perhaps a weaker incomplete version?

[hyper_megaman]

I guess it comes down to whether the hyuga have the same "power" as the uchiha. If it turns out their power is fundamentally the same as with the uchiha then there is no reason for which an union of the bloodlines would not potentially bring about another rikudo (unless the rikudo used his power to safeguard against that all those centuries ago). It really does not seem like the hyuga have the same power as the uchiha though.... perhaps a weaker incomplete version?

going on a faaar faaaaar conjecture here


i would think they specialise in different fields

the byakugan seems to be engrossed with yang chakra while the sharingan the yin

their clan cultures also seem to support this. the hyuuga's skills seem to revolev around health and defence, while the uchiha's seem to revolve around damage and destruction (with the sole exception of susanoo, which isn't even entirely defensive, and is used offensively half the time as well)

yang = energy and stamina, yin = form

the elder son never inherited his father's huge stamina (yang chakra) but did his yin chakra (this is what i inferred from the explanation), so if the hyuuga and uchiha are related to the elder son they would be comparatively weaker in yang than yin.

the sharingan in this case would be practically more useful due to the huge yin reserves the uchiha have being used in conjunction with their yin specialist eyes, they get to push their eyes' capabilities to vast levels that are detrimental to their own health without the yang chakra supporting

byakugan on the other hand are similarly lacking in yang chakra, but have eyes that are focused on yang (they see energy points much clearer than sharingan, etc). admittedly though, this part is quite tenuous from what i've hypothesised so far.

so anyway, the abvoe is one of many possible scenarios of how the rinnegan depreciated into the byakugan and sharingan. the eyes may have evolved into lousier versions to limit their usage due to lack of stamina/yang chakra, and evolved differently.

put stamina back into the equation, they may easily all turn back into the rinnegan.

i know it's a flimsy theory, but it's just meant to be an illustration of a possible scenario

[Crazytype]

I have to agree though, its not impossible for the byagukan to still be lnked to the Sharingan. Remember, the story about the Sage of the six paths is considered a legend not only because of his godlike powers, but of the time which had passed. The Sage lived thousands of years ago. (we don't know much about timelines and how long Ninjutsu exists and which ninja village is the oldest, but it was far back anyway) Most of the Sages story is clouded in mystery and is not known anymore. It was Tobi/Madara telling the story. He lived during a time where Senju and Uchiha were the most powerful clans. He emphazises on Senju and Uchiha because it was his reality to fight Senju at that time. I'm not sure the clan records go as far back as the Sage of the six paths. If the Sharingan is a mutation I doubt Madara nor the clanleaders themselves would acknowledge it. And wasn't Madara founder of the Uchiha Clan? What happened before? We know Konoha has a relatively young history but don't know about the other ninja villages, but Madara isn't the direct descentant of the Sage for all we know. And the descentants of the Sage had to breed, mixing their blood with other clans. Before the Uchiha/Senju clan even existed. I doubt even Uchihas only marry and breed inside their clan (would be nasty.)There're to many things we still don't know to be sure, and it's left intentionally vague I think.

[hyper_megaman]

I have to agree though, its not impossible for the byagukan to still be lnked to the Sharingan. Remember, the story about the Sage of the six paths is considered a legend not only because of his godlike powers, but of the time which had passed. The Sage lived thousands of years ago. (we don't know much about timelines and how long Ninjutsu exists and which ninja village is the oldest, but it was far back anyway) Most of the Sages story is clouded in mystery and is not known anymore. It was Tobi/Madara telling the story. He lived during a time where Senju and Uchiha were the most powerful clans. He emphazises on Senju and Uchiha because it was his reality to fight Senju at that time. I'm not sure the clan records go as far back as the Sage of the six paths. If the Sharingan is a mutation I doubt Madara nor the clanleaders themselves would acknowledge it. And wasn't Madara founder of the Uchiha Clan? What happened before? We know Konoha has a relatively young history but don't know about the other ninja villages, but Madara isn't the direct descentant of the Sage for all we know. And the descentants of the Sage had to breed, mixing their blood with other clans. Before the Uchiha/Senju clan even existed. I doubt even Uchihas only marry and breed inside their clan (would be nasty.)There're to many things we still don't know to be sure, and it's left intentionally vague I think.

well said.

unfortunately my worry still stands. i just hope kishi hasn't forgotten all about it in his endeavours to make just the uchiha and senju (and uzumaki as an alternative) the only things that matter.

his continuity isn't very good. I just reread the first 150 chapters and hit a lot of 'huh?' points that don't make sense.

[Eprst]

Naruto +. Hinata = bunch of mutants with nine tails red skin and white eyes
But seriously I think Hinata will die in manga Zetsu recorded Narutos fight with Pain so Tobi will definitely use her to provoke Naruto, Tobi is a master to manipulate emotions so he knows about this minus of Naruto