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Thread: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

  1. #31
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Jyten's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Rin should counter almost everything Fuji has. Zan should be impenetrable by Fuji. Fuu should finish the point and give him the winner. I dunno how that isn't enough :/
    I really only see Rin good against Fuji for 5th counter. It doesn't really help him against the other two. As he can do those moves with out any spin from the opponent (might be anime filler though, my memory isn't good on this one).

    Like Hohogaeshi if it hits he loses. Zan might counter this. Downside is we don't know what zan is other than a defensive move. Same with Hakyruu. I think Fuji can return Fuu. I think it's reasonable to mimic a person that just beat Fuji.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    I was talking about Nationals! Shiraishi. I have no doubt that right now he'd return it cleanly.
    True and we saw that at the end of SPoT, however Niou had no information about a new counter. That's something hard to predict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Plot.
    I'm a huge Ryoma hater, but even I recognize his ability. Plus, it's cannon. You can't really fight against it no matter how much you want to.
    Dang, starting to get too old for manga and anime....


  2. #32
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Rin should counter almost everything Fuji has. Zan should be impenetrable by Fuji. Fuu should finish the point and give him the winner. I dunno how that isn't enough :/
    Wtf? Why would Fuji lose out to Fuu Rin Ka Zan?
    I would like to see how Rin the Drop shot/Lob would defeat Hakuryuu lmao.
    Please, tell me how Zan beats Hakuryuu too. Sanada needs to either leap up to smash down Hakuryuu like Niou!Tezuka and Niou!Shiraishi did or he's lost the point.
    Sanada will effortlessly catch Hakuryuu and smash it down, but Zan isn't a smash.

    Tell me how Fuu, a move with immense Topspin will take winners against Fuji?
    Fuu is far from unstoppable. Nationals!Tezuka showed us this. He shat on Fuu.
    And that was before he brought out TZ.
    It wasn't due to Hyakku Ren either since shots that are too fast for you to handle can't be hit back by Hyakku Ren unless you can reach it yourself as proven by Ryoma VS Yukimura.

  3. #33
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Rin isn't just a "lob or drop" shot, it nullifies the spin the ball has (something that Fuji needs to hit properly like half or more of his counters).

    Zan isn't a smash, no, it's way more than that. It's like Marui's WC but even better, cause a simple lob can't brake it.

    Fuu isn't just "inmense top spin", is an almost invisible swing. And no, not invisible like Chitose's Kamikakushi, invisible because it's damn fast (so CE shouldn't work here). Tezuka shat on the move because he IS in Sanada's level and both of them always had around the same stats, something that I doubt Fuji had.

  4. #34
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Jyten's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Rin isn't just a "lob or drop" shot, it nullifies the spin the ball has (something that Fuji needs to hit properly like half or more of his counters).
    Yeah, but I don't think Fuji's counters need any spin to work anymore? Plus Rin doesn't mean he can return those moves automatically. He might? But Rin just hurts the current spin on the ball. Means nothing if you don't connect. And I don't think Rin gives him a free pass for this one.

    Also, I think Fuji could be on Sanada's level at this time minus rai/ka. So, Fuu, Rin and Zan shouldn't completely over power him.
    Dang, starting to get too old for manga and anime....


  5. #35
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    ...we're talking about Nationals time brah >_>

    Why would Shiraishi and Niou return every counter Fuji has but Sanada wouldn't?

  6. #36
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Jyten's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    ...we're talking about Nationals time brah >_>

    Why would Shiraishi and Niou return every counter Fuji has but Sanada wouldn't?
    I'm not saying he can't return the counters. I just think it'd be close minus Rai/Ka. Niou also has his pride as a trickster, I'm not sure he'd want to imitate someone badly. Not being able to do ka, a move Sanada spams in other matches is kinda bad.

    Also, of course we're talking about nationals. Where as non tnk Ryoma would stomp Fuji. Assuming he could copy Ryoma. He may not be able to.
    Dang, starting to get too old for manga and anime....


  7. #37
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Also, now that I think about it, Niou has enough tech to compensate his lack of power, so he should be able to hit Ka too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jyten View Post
    Not being able to do ka, a move Sanada spams in other matches is kinda bad.
    His pride didn't stop him to copy Tezuka without even being able to hit his best shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jyten View Post
    Also, of course we're talking about nationals. Where as non tnk Ryoma would stomp Fuji. Assuming he could copy Ryoma. He may not be able to.
    What I meant was, that I doubt that Nationals! Fuji doesn't need spin to hit his counters perfectly.

  8. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    On Illusion, it could be that he need preparation time. Think of his match against Yagyuu, he didn't use Illusion back then for whatever reason. In his match against Fuji, 1st stringer 15-16, and G10, he KNOWS he's going to play in all of those match. He might prepare only Tezuka and Shiraishi in National match.

    This doesn't really explain why he can illusion into twin, though.

    Maybe I'll just go with Fuji can just used closed eyes again and beat him in rally as long as long as he didn't use court ball, as closed eye Fuji>>>>>>>>>>>>Niou in rally. So there's just no more point in that match once Fuji beat his court ball as well.

    This is all National, of course.

    ---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Also, now that I think about it, Niou has enough tech to compensate his lack of power, so he should be able to hit Ka too...
    The most powerful shot from Niou is Kabaji smash. I think Ka move is more powerful than that, so it's not a certainty.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  9. #39
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    The most powerful shot from Niou is Kabaji smash. I think Ka move is more powerful than that, so it's not a certainty.
    Ka as a move is more powerful yes, but that's irrelevant. The fact that the move is stronger =/= the user should be stronger. Echizen copied Ka. Kirihara almost hit it but his grip (not every muscle he had) wasn't strong enough. So, as I said, " Niou has enough tech to compensate his lack of power".

    ---------- Post added October 19, 2013 at 12:00 AM ---------- Previous post was October 18, 2013 at 11:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Think of his match against Yagyuu, he didn't use Illusion back then for whatever reason.
    I'll say it 100 times but no one will agree with me. Illusion doesn't work with Yagyuu as he can see through it (that's why Niou's other tricks didn't work). I believe Yanagi should be able to do the same.

    Even if Niou needed preparation, they played for like 14 points, those are more than 3 games, the exact same number that Niou used to "collect data" against Fuji. Would he really need more than that to collect his BEST FRIEND'S data?

  10. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Ka as a move is more powerful yes, but that's irrelevant. The fact that the move is stronger =/= the user should be stronger. Echizen copied Ka. Kirihara almost hit it but his grip (not every muscle he had) wasn't strong enough. So, as I said, " Niou has enough tech to compensate his lack of power".
    Niou could spend all of his tech to replicate Kabaji hitting the ball already. The answer is simply you don't know. Echizen and Kirihara copy it with Muga. Illusion is another tech. They could be different condition. There's too many mystery with Illusion to be sure of anything with it.

    The most powerful shot that Niou is confirm hit right now is Kabaji normal hit. And Ka is a more powerful move than that. So it should require more technique to pull off.

    Oh, and that's actually pre-mountain training Niou that confirm to hit that. National! Niou should be weaker.

    Actually, let's forget that for a bit. I don't like assuming things that much anyways. As shown here, Niou can't even replicate Shiraishi 3.5 power back then.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...is/c364/8.html

    Shiraishi smash, if 100% replicate cannot be contain without the evolved triple counter.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...s/c315/11.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    I'll say it 100 times but no one will agree with me. Illusion doesn't work with Yagyuu as he can see through it (that's why Niou's other tricks didn't work). I believe Yanagi should be able to do the same.

    Even if Niou needed preparation, they played for like 14 points, those are more than 3 games, the exact same number that Niou used to "collect data" against Fuji. Would he really need more than that to collect his BEST FRIEND'S data?
    Niou doesn't even know that Yagyuu saw though his trick until the end of the tiebreak. Niou move allow the ball to be hit as it is shown. It's not like Yume move from Yamato. Otherwise, closed eyes should break Illusion itself from the very moment it's used.

    And if he can replicate the move without preparation, why wouldn't he do it? Tezuka Zone alone can beat Yagyuu. Tezuka Phantom in a 7 point tiebreaker is auto win. Yagyuu doesn't have to believe it's not Tezuka. He just can't fight Tezuka move, even if Niou is the one using it.

    Since when is it say that Sanada is Niou best friend? They are on the same team, so they are friend, I'll give you that. But best friend?

    Also, you say they play for 3 games, but how many were Niou winning? Niou 14 points that he gather data against Fuji was all that he got dominated and wasn't really even trying to win the point. Why would those 14 points be even to 14 points before? Those 14 points from the beginning are 100% meant to gather data. He wasn't trying to go for anything else. And actually, I count 12. Where is the other 2 point comes from?

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...s/c363/11.html

    The answer is 4 points. He got 4 points in Shiraishi form to change to Sanada. If Niou is trying after he lose to Fuji closed eyes in the beginning, it would be 2 full game. But any less, and that's the amount of time that he already used into preparation to change into Shiraishi and not change into Sanada.
    Last edited by -Ken-; October 18, 2013 at 11:19 PM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  11. #41
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Fuu is far from unstoppable. Nationals!Tezuka showed us this. He shat on Fuu.
    And that was before he brought out TZ.
    It wasn't.
    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27243...apter-346.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27243...apter-346.html

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    This doesn't really explain why he can illusion into twin, though.
    The Illusion may just have improved since the beginning of the camp.

  12. #42
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Philia's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Niou took 5 games in a flash using Illusion. . In my opinion Niou Lost because he didn't want to use Hyakuren or Phantom since it puts too much burden in the body. That probably means he couldn't use moves like Rai as it also cause damage to the user. So, he became Shiraishi. But it wasn't enough to beat Fuji. He should've use Hyakuren & Zone to finish off the last game.

  13. #43
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Niou could spend all of his tech to replicate Kabaji hitting the ball already. The answer is simply you don't know. Echizen and Kirihara copy it with Muga. Illusion is another tech. They could be different condition. There's too many mystery with Illusion to be sure of anything with it.

    The most powerful shot that Niou is confirm hit right now is Kabaji normal hit. And Ka is a more powerful move than that. So it should require more technique to pull off.

    Oh, and that's actually pre-mountain training Niou that confirm to hit that. National! Niou should be weaker.
    How is hitting another person's Drive the same thing than hitting a special shot, that's what I'm trying to say.

    We know that Ryoma and Sanada (and I'm talking about them in Muga state) don't have enough tech to hit TZ. Niou does. We know that Ryoma has around the same power of Kirihara (or lower), Kirihara couldn't hit Ka (because his grip wasn't strong enough) but Echizen did, that shows us that Echizen (even lacking power) was able to hit it. Niou SHOULD be able to hit Ka as he more tech than Echizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Niou doesn't even know that Yagyuu saw though his trick until the end of the tiebreak. Niou move allow the ball to be hit as it is shown. It's not like Yume move from Yamato. Otherwise, closed eyes should break Illusion itself from the very moment it's used.
    I don't understand, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    And if he can replicate the move without preparation, why wouldn't he do it? Tezuka Zone alone can beat Yagyuu. Tezuka Phantom in a 7 point tiebreaker is auto win. Yagyuu doesn't have to believe it's not Tezuka. He just can't fight Tezuka move, even if Niou is the one using it.

    Since when is it say that Sanada is Niou best friend? They are on the same team, so they are friend, I'll give you that. But best friend?
    That's a good one. You think that Niou didn't play at his 100% in the tie-break match?

    I'm saying that Yagyuu is Niou's best friend, or at least they've been playing doubles for years and know each other perfectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Also, you say they play for 3 games, but how many were Niou winning? Niou 14 points that he gather data against Fuji was all that he got dominated and wasn't really even trying to win the point. Why would those 14 points be even to 14 points before? Those 14 points from the beginning are 100% meant to gather data. He wasn't trying to go for anything else. And actually, I count 12. Where is the other 2 point comes from?
    I know 3 games are 12 points >_>

    I don't know what's your point though. He should gather more data if he actually tried to win some points (considering that the opponent wouldn't have to do much to score), otw the data would suck.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    The answer is 4 points. He got 4 points in Shiraishi form to change to Sanada. If Niou is trying after he lose to Fuji closed eyes in the beginning, it would be 2 full game. But any less, and that's the amount of time that he already used into preparation to change into Shiraishi and not change into Sanada.
    Sorry, I don't undestand ya :/

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I don't like assuming things that much anyways.
    "Most of the thing I post is probably assumption"

    lol

  14. #44
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    How is hitting another person's Drive the same thing than hitting a special shot, that's what I'm trying to say.

    We know that Ryoma and Sanada (and I'm talking about them in Muga state) don't have enough tech to hit TZ. Niou does. We know that Ryoma has around the same power of Kirihara (or lower), Kirihara couldn't hit Ka (because his grip wasn't strong enough) but Echizen did, that shows us that Echizen (even lacking power) was able to hit it. Niou SHOULD be able to hit Ka as he more tech than Echizen.
    Niou doesn't have more tech than Echizen. What are you talking about? Their tech are both 5. And my point is that Niou back then fail to replicate 3.5 power of Shiraishi. If he can replicate it, the racquet SHOULD fly off Fuji hand. So if he can't replicate that much power, I don't see him hitting Ka back then. And Echizen have higher power than Niou. So combined power+tech of Echizen is higher. Echizen being able to do it doesn't mean that Niou can. Niou doesn't show to hit Samurai Drive when he's Echizen either. Just because Niou can do one move that Muga can't copy doesn't mean much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    That's a good one. You think that Niou didn't play at his 100% in the tie-break match?

    I'm saying that Yagyuu is Niou's best friend, or at least they've been playing doubles for years and know each other perfectly.
    Well, care to explain how Niou didn't can actually do those move and it's all illusion then? If Niou can clearly can used those, and we saw the match that show he didn't use it, try to deduct what happen there.

    Are you saying if Yagyuu can see through the Illusion, Niiou can't actually do the shot? That's strange, because some panel show Niou using the move of the one that he illusion. That might simply suggest Niou need preparation time to used it, which 7 point tiebreaker is simply not enough time at that time. Like Kaoz say, illusion can just improve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    I know 3 games are 12 points >_>

    I don't know what's your point though. He should gather more data if he actually tried to win some points (considering that the opponent wouldn't have to do much to score), otw the data would suck.
    So where did 14 point come from?

    Considering that the 3 game that he gather data against Fuji, Niou pretty much sucks pretty hard, I doubt that it is the case. I don't know about it making sense or not. It's simply what shown in the manga.

    [QUOTE=Hardy;3569430]Sorry, I don't undestand ya ://[QUOTE]

    If he used the data before to change into Shiraishi, there will only be 4 points left now to get the data needed to change into Sanada.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    "Most of the thing I post is probably assumption"

    lol
    Read what follows.
    Last edited by -Ken-; October 19, 2013 at 11:20 AM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  15. #45
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Jyten's Avatar
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    Re: Niou vs Fuji , national finals dissatifaction

    ...uh, why do we care about tech when it comes to performing ka? Sure Niou!Sanada can preform Ka, but with Niou's much lower strength stat than Sanada, it'll probably have the power of normal smash (probably still less than Momo's dunk). I don't see that doing squat to Kirin.

    Either way, I think it's more than reasonable to chose Shiraishi. It's pretty normal to lose to an opponent you just lost to.

    Some how I think Niou's illusion is very mental based. I think that he can perform nearly all techniques shown in PoT/SPoT. But to a computer they may not have the same power, speed, spin (think 90% vs 100%, very close but not the same). The remaining 10% is tricked or the illusion part to make you think your fighting against the same caliber of player/move.

    Hence why it may not work on Yagyuu. After all, when Echizen did zero-shiki drop shot for the first time he lowered his racket too much while doing it. Which according to Inui mean it wouldn't work again as the opponent would have more time to react. Niou's voice always lowered when he was tricking. Which may give Yagyuu the necessary time to react properly.

    I donno though Illusion is BS and I hate Niou about half as much as I hate Ryoma.
    Dang, starting to get too old for manga and anime....


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