It's Like the God in Me Saw the Devil in You

[Ancy]

random post is random


Bearyy, I'll dedicate this song to yoooouu

[Adorien]

Bears rule, I guess.

[scav]

But I'm not talking about how themes are being handled or conveyed in comparing Naruto and One Piece, I'm simply stating what the themes are.

Outside of FI, where we were hit repeatedly over the head with it, what themes in One Piece have been handled with complexity really? I don't see it honestly.

In Naruto - vengeance, abandonment, characters as pariahs. Those aren't themes generally explored in OP.

The result doesn't mean Naruto is more enjoyable, ultimately it comes down to how compelling the story is. Naruto has had many stumbles in that regard.

actually this comparison is wrong lol. One piece have many adults and complex theme. Rebellions and civil war (alabasta), slavery(Arlong), racism (tenryuubito ), corrupted government and the list goes on. And Oda doesn't make half assed things. The background stories are consistent and solid in One piece, things did not happens just because one wanted an eye or stuff like that. Generally shounen's plot lack depth and there is always plot holes or things just doesn't make sense. however i consider the crocodile saga as one of the most in-depth saga in a shounen. Everything have a beginning, an end, an explanation and a purpose. The way crocodile managed to make his organisation, how he managed to bring chaos to the country while making them think he's a savior, how he set the government vs rebels and his real purpose. All of this brilliantly mixed with comedy and great battles. Yeah that's what make One piece the best Shounen. It's not simple and i have yet to see a manga with so many mysteries like One piece. And you know all of them have an answer planned in advance by Oda, nothing is out of place. The simplest things are the story about vengeance (sasuke) and world domination: no mysteries and just linear.

[Kaiten]

Naruto is not a complex manga, it's a long metaphor for puberty. Naruto's "adult" themes are slightly melodramatic plot devices used to reinforce and establish the main theme. The Kyuubi represents "the monster within" that is adolescence, a power that needs to be tamed and controlled before Naruto can become an adult. This is a relatively common plot device in manga, Inuyasha's inner demon and Ichigo's inner hollow held similar symbolism. The Uchiha massacre (it did not become genocide until much later) was a melodramatic plot device used to make Sasuke an outsider in his own town, and to give his anger a source. The adult themes implicit in a massacre of that scale have never been explored. The consequences were entirely internal, Sasuke the only character traumatized. Were this explored in a truly complex, adult manner a massacre of that scale and speed would have cast a pall over all of Konoha. Even before it shifted from a massacre to genocide it would be a black cloud of violence that haunted the community. The Kyuubi left Naruto as an outcast, but not a pariah. At the beginning of the manga Naruto was a typical 12 or 13 year old child, a little different from the other kids, who has trouble fitting in. Through hard work, candor, honesty, and a little gumption he makes friends and becomes an integral part of the community. Despite the massacre, at the start of the series Sasuke has little trouble fitting in. He is the top of his class, popular with girls, and surrounded by friends. But like many 12 or 13 year old's he does not feel like he fits in, his internal demons gradually become more obsessions, and he turns he rejects people who accept him. In real life he would get a funny haircut and wear a trench coat. In the manga he flees the city to seek the source of his resentment. A pariah can not be self made, he rejected society, they did not reject him. His actions have forced them to renounce him. At no time have themes of abandonment been explored. Naruto may have lost his parents, by making friends he has found a place he fits in. Sasuke rejected his friends, choosing to be alone. Those are not metaphors for abandonment, they are metaphors for the importance of friends and fitting in. That is not to say Naruto's themes are bad, but they are not as adult or complex as fans like to make them out to be. Naruto fails in being overly melodramatic, using extremely gruesome symbolism for the teen experience. The consequences of such gruesome events have hardly been explored.

---------- Post added at 12:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 PM ----------

The lesson is simple and uncomplex: friendship and a positive attitude can overcome adversity while anger gets you nothing but misery. In no way does Naruto depict any of the real contradictions or difficulties that confront teens as they grow up.

[sakura-aneki]

hoolllyyy shit Kaiten! And here I thought scav's comment was too long and didn't read O.O wow

[baboysai]

But, because of how Naruto is all simple (as its original plot intention used to be), Naruto as a character ranked as one of my favorites. And right now, for the good of all that was in its original intent, I still think that Naruto is one of the best shounen characters to root for. In the most shounen way possible. He's a kid trying to prove himself to the world, to be accepted- to overcompensate for his being a freak of nature. To be "like everybody else", he has to be "greater than everybody else" - and I love that irony in his character, and his pure determination and spirit, and his innocence.

Despite that, I still dropped the manga for everything else. If it were only about Naruto, I'd continue to read it, I guess. But Kubo (I meant Kishi ) just couldn't keep his story straight, IMO. :/

[M3J]

Naruto was far more complex than One Piece at the time, though. OP mostly had typical shounen action - good guy goes on adventure, meets people, and wins them by beating the bad guy. One Piece took it a step further and STILL gives its main characters their own fights that are important to their growth. Naruto did the same, but in Part II Kishi dropped this and focused more on Naruto and Sasuke.

Although the whole teen thing wasn't explored in depth, at least Kishi tried with the whole "GIRLS LURVE SASUKE" thing, and Naruto crushin on Sakura, and Hinata loving Naruto. It's kind of hard to focus on the whole teen thing when the culture basically forces you to grow up, like it did to Kakashi, Itachi, and Minato. You go out on missions when you're 7-12, and by the age of 21, you have probably killed someone. Was there really anyone in the manga disturbed by seeing blood or death? Sakura didn't really feel react when kakashi saved her by inserting a kunai in the heads of the two shinobi that were attacking her.

yeah, I'll admit Kishi didn't go as in depth as he should have on a lot of stuff, and that he missed the ball, but the manga is still ongoing. There's still a chance of seeing stuff like what the Uchiha Massacre did to Konoha. Plus, naruto had some element of racism, though not really related to race. The way kekkei genkai users were hunted, the way Uchiha were segregated and eventually wiped out.... It's somewhat similar to what Nazi did to their enemies, but Uchiha actually had respect by majority of the village and were treated well.

What kind of theme did OP have up until Alabasta arc? Arlong Park arc is the only time I recall some kind of theme, which was racism. Apart from that, it was typical shounen stuff, like Naruto, with the whole not giving up thing and fightin for friends. There really wasn't as much gray or ponderous area as Naruto, as mentioned before.


I have noticed that OP has gotten more adult-oriented while Naruto went the less adult-route as the chapters passed. OP went from humor to introducing racism and showing the death of one of the most popular characters and one of the most popular pirates while Naruto went from blood and death to a lone hero trying to save everything and good guys being revived. At the tiem though, I believe Naruto had more complex plot and potential than One Piece, although One Piece has a much bigger world than Naruto to be explored.

---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

In my opinion, Naruto in Part I was a far more complex character than Luffy. Luffy desired to make and protect his friends and become the king of pirates while Naruto wanted to be accepted, become a hokage, and protect his friends and prove that hard work triumphed above all.

[matzik1212]

What are these text walls . It just hit my head

Okay so here goes my opinion as well . I actually can't bear to choose between Naruto and One Piece . These 2 mangas are definitely ranked 1st in my list . It's true that the stories weren't always great and there were times when one was better than the other but still no one can deny that both Oda and Kishi are amazing mangaka . They are people just like us and they also make mistakes . Also the choices they make , it's obvious that you can't be always happy with everything but i'm sure when these 2 mangas will be over you guys will be crying the same as me and with the passing of time you'll learn to appreciate this stories just like now you appreciate DBZ for example . 'Cause i'm sure that at that time when DBZ was an ongoing manga there were many who didn't like some parts but now everyone looks back with nostalgia .

Okay that's about it

[xi0]

actually this comparison is wrong lol. One piece have many adults and complex theme. Rebellions and civil war (alabasta), slavery(Arlong), racism (tenryuubito ), corrupted government and the list goes on. And Oda doesn't make half assed things. The background stories are consistent and solid in One piece, things did not happens just because one wanted an eye or stuff like that. Generally shounen's plot lack depth and there is always plot holes or things just doesn't make sense. however i consider the crocodile saga as one of the most in-depth saga in a shounen. Everything have a beginning, an end, an explanation and a purpose. The way crocodile managed to make his organisation, how he managed to bring chaos to the country while making them think he's a savior, how he set the government vs rebels and his real purpose. All of this brilliantly mixed with comedy and great battles. Yeah that's what make One piece the best Shounen. It's not simple and i have yet to see a manga with so many mysteries like One piece. And you know all of them have an answer planned in advance by Oda, nothing is out of place. The simplest things are the story about vengeance (sasuke) and world domination: no mysteries and just linear.

When did anyone say One Piece wasn't a complex manga? When did anyone say Oda half-assed things? This is about it's THEMES. A ongoing series near 700 chapters that isn't a gag series and isn't episodic has to have some level of complexity. The world is too large to say otherwise.

Rebellion has been an ongoing theme for One Piece since it started. Slavery was glanced upon in Arlong Park and Racism was slightly explored in Shabondy but only after they reached the New World. Whitebeard's War was fantastical and was typical One Piece EXCEPT for the kicker at the end, the deaths of characters. This conveyed what the New World was going to be, something darker. Fishman Island expanded greatly upon what was briefly shown in Shabondy. There's no doubt since then the themes have been more adult and complex. I'm not talking about the plot not being complex or the characters not being complex, I'm talking about themes.

To say something happened in Naruto because someone just wanted an eye. That's rudimentary and bashy to be honest. And from what I remember you don't read Naruto anymore and haven't for a while. I was comparing Naruto and One Piece's themes, not trying to sing one's praises over the other. One Piece is a better manga. I completely agree with One Piece being more nuanced and Oda being a better and more clever storyteller than Kishi.

Naruto is not a complex manga, it's a long metaphor for puberty. Naruto's "adult" themes are slightly melodramatic plot devices used to reinforce and establish the main theme. The Kyuubi represents "the monster within" that is adolescence, a power that needs to be tamed and controlled before Naruto can become an adult. This is a relatively common plot device in manga, Inuyasha's inner demon and Ichigo's inner hollow held similar symbolism. The Uchiha massacre (it did not become genocide until much later) was a melodramatic plot device used to make Sasuke an outsider in his own town, and to give his anger a source. The adult themes implicit in a massacre of that scale have never been explored. The consequences were entirely internal, Sasuke the only character traumatized. Were this explored in a truly complex, adult manner a massacre of that scale and speed would have cast a pall over all of Konoha. Even before it shifted from a massacre to genocide it would be a black cloud of violence that haunted the community. The Kyuubi left Naruto as an outcast, but not a pariah. At the beginning of the manga Naruto was a typical 12 or 13 year old child, a little different from the other kids, who has trouble fitting in. Through hard work, candor, honesty, and a little gumption he makes friends and becomes an integral part of the community. Despite the massacre, at the start of the series Sasuke has little trouble fitting in. He is the top of his class, popular with girls, and surrounded by friends. But like many 12 or 13 year old's he does not feel like he fits in, his internal demons gradually become more obsessions, and he turns he rejects people who accept him. In real life he would get a funny haircut and wear a trench coat. In the manga he flees the city to seek the source of his resentment. A pariah can not be self made, he rejected society, they did not reject him. His actions have forced them to renounce him. At no time have themes of abandonment been explored. Naruto may have lost his parents, by making friends he has found a place he fits in. Sasuke rejected his friends, choosing to be alone. Those are not metaphors for abandonment, they are metaphors for the importance of friends and fitting in. That is not to say Naruto's themes are bad, but they are not as adult or complex as fans like to make them out to be. Naruto fails in being overly melodramatic, using extremely gruesome symbolism for the teen experience. The consequences of such gruesome events have hardly been explored.

So you're saying Naruto is a melodramatic series? I just want to get it right

Again, I'm only talking about themes here. I'm not making value judgments on execution of story, development of characters, or exploration of themes. You seem to be insistent on breaking down the manga and saying why it sucks, my original point had nothing to do with whether it sucked or not.

So Naruto was an outcast, but not a pariah? They're the same thing.

The Uchiha massacre was internalized and effected only Sasuke because it was covered up with the scapegoating of Itachi. He was/is a criminal after all. No one in the current generation had any idea about the truth behind it aside from Sasuke. Will that change and be explored? That's up to Kishi, but I would think since it's Sasuke's motivation something will have to be made of it. Itachi, Sasuke, and the Village Elders were the only people who knew the truth until Tobi spilled the beans to Naruto/Kakashi/Yamato and it was revealed Kabuto knew the truth as well. Itachi blackmailed Danzo and the Elders to keep the truth from coming out. Kakashi and Itachi STILL say the truth must remain a secret. You're criticizing the story for something that you haven't allowed to happen yet. To expect an exploration of mass murder in WSJ is a bit too much as it is, but that's beside the point. It was shown to give explanation to Sasuke's character from his perspective. It was a hidden mission, who else is supposed to know about it aside from higher ups? Maybe it could/did cast a pall over Konoha, but that was never shown in depth. Because of that it appears to be muddied up a bit, but they do live in a Shinobi Village. Is it Sasuke-centric? Yes. Should it be? Of course. Could it have been expanded upon? Probably and if I had to bet, it will be at some point.

Because Naruto made friends abandonment was never a theme? Do you even remember what the beginning of the manga was like for Naruto? His childhood? Sasuke made HIMSELF an outcast yes, but he was abandoned by his brother quite obviously. So much of Sasuke is misguided, but that doesn't change the fact that the dude has clear and obvious abandonment issues. Not only in being abandoned, but being the one who abandons. He abandoned Konoha and he abandoned Team 7. Those who were closest to him have been dealing with his abandoning for years now. How has this NEVER been explored? Sasuke abandoned his friends because he was abandoned by the person closest to him. Importance of friends and fitting in? Sure, but abandonment is a part of that.

Naruto isn't FMA with it's themes no. It's not going to compete with it there. I still think it's themes tend to be more adult and complex than One Piece. That's it. It has nothing to do with which series is better or well executed or how well Oda/Kishi does at exploring said themes or conveying a message.. I feel like we're running in circles here...

[benelori]

The simplest things are the story about vengeance (sasuke) and world domination: no mysteries and just linear.

And you know this because you still follow the manga right?

---------- Post added at 04:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 AM ----------

Yeah, Hodi was a pretty mediocre villain. Pretty uninspiring...

I sort of got the sense that it was done on purpose...

[xi0]

On purpose? You mean in the sense that he wasn't supposed to overshadow the arc as a whole? I guess I can buy that, but it doesn't change the fact that he was dull.

---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

And you know this because you still follow the manga right?

I have no problem with his opinions on One Piece, no one would disagree if they were a fan. But yeah, read something before you criticize it

*cough*manhwasucks*cough

[benelori]

On purpose? You mean in the sense that he wasn't supposed to overshadow the arc as a whole? I guess I can buy that, but it doesn't change the fact that he was dull.

Well yeah he was dull...I felt that what he represented was the real villain, not the character himself...and it felt like that from the very beginning...

---------- Post added at 04:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 AM ----------

*cough*manhwasucks*cough

[M3J]

You can't compare OP or Naruto with FMA. While FMA is not my favorite, its quality is very high. That's like comparing McDonald's to Founding Farmers'.

I have no idea what Kishi's doing, but it's obvious that his storytelling has changed from Part I.

I have noticed that many people praise Part I Naruto, but early OP has been said to not be as good. Part II Naruto however has been criticized while later OP has been said to really improve.

[Farfalla]

So many walls of text D:
I'll have to use this:

[baboysai]

I would have to disagree with Milly saying OP was not as good in the beginning. I found OP to be quite consistent. I found it very entertaining and bad-ass right from the very beginning.