DGM Chapter 214 Discussion

[tgirl]

dialogue between allen and the earl : http://www.mangareader.net/210-41035...apter-189.html

Yeah, and? That's the very conflicting thing we find between that 14th and this 14th. That 14th was aware of that event, and Allen was able to catch wind a bit of it as well. The current 14th sounds like he doesn't know anything. Its just confusing. Then, there's the 14th in the piano room. Hopefully, everything does clear up in the end. ^_^

The Chinese scanlation group did not explicitly say that their scans can't be used. However, I once asked a Chinese scanlation group to use their scans and I got rejected, so probably the answer is no. I really hope this doesn't continue.

Hmm... And yeah, hopefully it doesn't (/ doesn't become a trend). The only way for that to happen though is to let the Chinese scanlation group know (or see if they know about it). Then, see if they can take action against whoever used their scans.

Nea and Allen could be a special case of the Noah/human relationship since exceptions kind of always exist in fiction and there's how Allen's the protagonist etc. When Nea takes over Allen, his skin doesn't turn gray, but that's probably because Nea hasn't awakened fully or something.

Right. They definitely are an exception. And yeah, that's what I've been saying. I don't think Nea has totally awakened either. He definitely seems "incomplete". We need more chapters with this current "14th" just to see what kind of actions he does and how much he "remembers". What I find interesting is that when Tim thinks of the 14th in gray skin, his face is hidden. Normally, you'd expect Tim's memory to be very good, but his memory of the 14th is the equivalent of when the Earl thinks of him.

That Tumblr theory doesn't make sense now that I think of it. I was just too shocked when I first saw it. If it was really Nea all along, that's a huge mask he'd be wearing and it would be weird if he did wear a mask of Mana. No problem! I just like throwing out theories and discussing them. In fact TVTropes has a speculation subpage of the DGM article called Wild Mass Guessing where all the theories, whether serious, crack or even crossover are listed.

It would be weird enough to picture the 14th wearing a mask on top of a mask for a very very long time. (Which can only be done with a very talented character in a certain shoujo manga, who suffers from an internal darkness of his own past.) ^_____^

Hah? They do? Wow... I had this impression that TVTropes was just full of different small articles and discussions, but I never would imagine they had a guessing page too. O___o I'm going to check that out later after this. (Thanks again.)

Edit: Wow.. The WMG page is crazy. The Earl is related to Santa Claus? Cross is Clow Reed? Sixty-five? Hahahahaha... This is a very fascinating half-crack priceless theory page. Some people have the wildest ideas here that I can't stop laughing. (Probably die of it before reaching the end.) I could read this on a long trip and never be bored.

In PH, everyone is crazy. There's a image on Tumblr listing everyone on the sliding scale of craziness although it's like 7 chapters ago. I bet Jack is now up there with Lacie at the top of the the scale now.

I can't label every single character as crazy crazy, but yeah, PH is filed with a lot of characters who are on the verge of meltdowns and psychotic memory recollections. ^^; I agree with the bottom portion of the chart as to who's pretty sane. With the current chapter, I can't really see Vincent as "insane" anymore. He had a very legit reason to cutting up those numerous stuffed animal bunnies as a stress reliever. O__o (And it would never hit us as to why he's been doing it until the latest revelation. Mochizuki-sensei = clever!!)

Tripeace seems a bit cliche to me but Nana is sure an interesting protagonist. Also, I like the third law thing. I checked for Chinese scanaltions and it's hopeless at 7 chapters LOL. I guess I'd buy Japanese/Chinese tankoubons at Kinokuniya if I want though.

It is cliche, hence why I said the story isn't great. I should've added in that it's not too original, but yeah. Nana makes things a bit interesting along with the third law. I'm not sure if this manga is worth a purchase though. The final volume didn't seem to have a good reception on Amazon.co.jp so that made me worried a bit that everything was rushed in the end (-----> no surprise though). We don't even know what's in the final volume. (I think the English scanlations have gone up to the 6th volume? Meanwhile, yeah, the Chinese scanlations didn't go too far. >D)

IDK how people keep up with the big 3. I'm only following KHR! and Nurarihyon no Mago in SJ. Ah, I bought a Monthly Asuka before for a DNAngel phone strap, otherwise furoku don't really attract me. In the end I kept the cover and recycled the magazine because of the space issue.

Yeah, I don't know how it's possible with the big 3. I read/followed Inu-Yasha from beginning to the end, and that's how I learned how boring or annoying certain shounen manga can be. So, when seeing the chapter amount for the big 3, I can easily go "forget it!!") For manga to last so long with certain filler arcs and long drawn out ridiculous battles (that span eons), I just can't imagine following another shounen manga like that. Thankfully, there are other shounens that either shorten the formula or actually have a plot to care about other than the main characters trying to be stronger.

I read the first chapter of KHR when it first came out, and I wasn't really too sure about it. However, I did find the baby face mafia guy to be cute. ^^; When Nurarihyon came out, I enjoyed it and read it for a good set of chapters. Then, I lost interest somewhere right a climatic point in the story. I'll probably have to pick it up again one day.

This fanfiction (Allen gives up, Nea tries to get Allen back and speaks with Red instead) is the influence behind me thinking that Red is a separate personality from Allen. Allen is made up of a broken Red with many patches of Mana. As the series progresses, this Allen breaks a little, so the bits of Mana disintegrate, breaking the mask.

I see. I did take a look at the story.

It really made Red his own character. Most of all, the existence of this Red instantly reminded me of Lavi's predicament. Remember back in Road's dream world, there was the "past name" of Lavi and the current Lavi? In the end though, Lavi was able to put himself together acknowledging that all the other names/identities he assumed were all a part of him. So, going through the fic, it reminded me of Lavi's interaction with his own self. But then, that's turning the fic into what I think of Red and Allen as being the same person. "Allen" was a name that Red inherited. Mana's death allowed Allen to inherit a bit of his personality (mask).

Nea is Allen's Enemy Within, yet his intentions are unknown until further reveals. If the 'keep on walking' said by Nea inspires Allen, this means that Allen only exists because of Nea. Similarly, Nea cannot exist without Allen as Allen is a vessel for Nea. Nea and Allen have a symbiotic relationship, one cannot exist without the other. They can either help or harm each other and this will be really intriuging to see.

I really wonder how much about Allen does Nea know and whether Allen knows more about Nea through the dream sequences...

Yep. This will be intriguing to see, indeed. One cannot live without the other.

And now that you worded that last phrase that way, if Nea sees Allen's life through Tim's memories and Allen sees Nea's life through that dream/memories, then that pretty much gives them everything they need to know about each other. (I probably won't easily be satisfied with this kind of outcome because it seems so simple. It doesn't feel like it will bond both of them together. There has to be catch to all this.)

Yet, we still don't know the whole scenario here. I feel like the gray color skin represented Allen until it started to fade away, and we were left with the 14th with normal skin color. That would mean that Allen's conscience was the one having that "dream/memory" and reacted to it like he was Nea. ....

[Mysterious_Kaitou]

Maybe everyone's memories of Nea/14th are purposely censored for some reason. It could be the Apo guy or after Nea's death, any memories of him are thus faded out.

Uh... maskception because of the mask in a mask etc.? Which character in the shoujo manga is that? I'm curious. Ah, TVTropes is awesome. Do check out the fanfic recommendation section too. TVTropes is a huge (awesome) waste of time, seeing that I have many fandoms and I like to read the trope pages too...

For KHR!, the first 60-70+ chapters are complete crack but good to read for character development. Reborn is always that badass though. Afterwards, it gets awesome. The plot can be a bit repetitive with how it's just fight, lose, get upgrade, villian of previous arc helps, win, have some peaceful times, rinse and repeat. However it's not the case for the current arc when I'm crying because no matter whether Tsuna wins or not, Reborn will suffer. I uh, read it for the bishounen and the plot. I especially love the time travel arc although it took 100+ chapters. Also, everyone's hotter ten years later *A*

As for Nuramago, I just really love the art and ship night!Rikuo/day!Rikuo hopelessly. Which chapter/arc you stopped at? The Tokyo invasion arc which starts around Chapter 140+ is epic win or maybe I'm just biased to day!Rikuo.

*sighs at Lavi* He's one of my favourite characters and I'd love to know more about him, but he seems to be Put On A Bus and his screentime is pathetic. Such a pity, especially when he's a Bookman and all. I really need to bother reading the Reverse novels properly instead of the summaries some day.

It seems like Allen and Nea have a mental connection? But I'm confused. In Chapter 198, Nea seems to be aware of what's happening around Allen so he can go: I'LL BE THE NEXT MILLENIUM EARL. Then in 214, Nea is disoriented and doesn't know what's happening much. Maybe this time, Allen collapsed and there's that dream?

That's interesting... so it was Allen who was dreaming, but in the dream he was Nea. Allen could be wondering whether he was Allen or he was Nea and Nea took this opportunity to take over. Nea is awake and Allen could be still dreaming. It's kind of like Zhuang Zi's butterfly dream, there are differences between two things, but then in dreams, one can be the other so differences are not absolute. Anyway, the main point is that dreams are really important (but that's kind of obvious). That really made my head spin.

[tgirl]

Maybe everyone's memories of Nea/14th are purposely censored for some reason. It could be the Apo guy or after Nea's death, any memories of him are thus faded out.

Hmm.... Maybe, a select group of people if this was possible? That would explain the memory damage that the Noah experienced from whatever the 14th has done to them. But then, the Bookman would still be the one who was there long enough to keep record of it all... (Same goes for the guy with the Will of the 14th.)

Uh... maskception because of the mask in a mask etc.? Which character in the shoujo manga is that? I'm curious. Ah, TVTropes is awesome. Do check out the fanfic recommendation section too. TVTropes is a huge (awesome) waste of time, seeing that I have many fandoms and I like to read the trope pages too...

Maskception!! Hahah... That's genius! Mask in a mask in a mask, and my head hurts now. You could probably add to that to the TVTrope crack theory page. As for the shoujo manga, it's a character in "Skip Beat!". If you're familiar with this manga, then, you can probably skip this spoiler.

Ren Tsurugara (stage name) - 1/4 Japanese and mostly American son of a famous half-Japanese/American actor, who had a good personality until he ended up on the wrong path. Because of what he's done, he moved to Japan, dyed his hair, changed his personality and assumed a new name. On top of that, his identity in Japan is as a famous actor. Soooo, he literally has to put on a mask on top of a mask just to cover up who he really is. The thing is, the "real" him has that darkness that he gained when he went on the wrong path. However, there's also the "good" parts of who he was prior to that darkness that needs to be freed. ......... It's complicated!! X__X

I'll definitely check out other parts of TVTropes just to fill in my daily dose of laughter. ^__^ (I will have to avoid the Kingdom Hearts section in fear of spoilers, but other places should be safe.)

For KHR!, the first 60-70+ chapters are complete crack but good to read for character development. Reborn is always that badass though. Afterwards, it gets awesome. The plot can be a bit repetitive with how it's just fight, lose, get upgrade, villian of previous arc helps, win, have some peaceful times, rinse and repeat. However it's not the case for the current arc when I'm crying because no matter whether Tsuna wins or not, Reborn will suffer. I uh, read it for the bishounen and the plot. I especially love the time travel arc although it took 100+ chapters. Also, everyone's hotter ten years later *A*

Yeah, that's what I was afraid KHR would fall into. Usually, when a shounen manga gets to that point, I skip most of the fight scenes. ^^; But thanks for explaining it out to me. I know there are more serious parts in KHR. I'll probably check more of it one day when I really have nothing else to follow.

As for Nuramago, I just really love the art and ship night!Rikuo/day!Rikuo hopelessly. Which chapter/arc you stopped at? The Tokyo invasion arc which starts around Chapter 140+ is epic win or maybe I'm just biased to day!Rikuo.

Yeah, the night and day Rikuos are interesting in their dual, or singular, existences. (I sometimes wonder if there was something more to the youkai form of Rikuo...) ^_^ I think I left off during their great battle between the evil youkai and the good ones. Rikuo's classmaters were involved in that too. (Maybe because I found something to read during that point in time is probably another reason why I didn't go back to Nurarihyon.)

*sighs at Lavi* He's one of my favourite characters and I'd love to know more about him, but he seems to be Put On A Bus and his screentime is pathetic. Such a pity, especially when he's a Bookman and all. I really need to bother reading the Reverse novels properly instead of the summaries some day.

Yeah, Lavi is kind of "left there" at the 3 months ago part with senior Bookman. ;__; I'm sure we'll see them again soon. I always wanted to kidnap Bookman Sr. for myself and make him spill all that he knows.

It seems like Allen and Nea have a mental connection? But I'm confused. In Chapter 198, Nea seems to be aware of what's happening around Allen so he can go: I'LL BE THE NEXT MILLENIUM EARL. Then in 214, Nea is disoriented and doesn't know what's happening much. Maybe this time, Allen collapsed and there's that dream?

Yeah, that's what's confusing about all of this. That's why I split that 14th as a different 14th from the one we see now. *scratches head* Is the Noah 14th, as you once said somewhere in your previous posts, different from Nea in a sense? Is Nea = Allen and the 14th = 14th as one random theory would wonder? Is Allen dreaming of Nea's memories or are they actually his own memories? Can we just love (or scream at) Hoshino for making us run around in circles wondering just how many masks, memories or personalities Allen has?

That's interesting... so it was Allen who was dreaming, but in the dream he was Nea. Allen could be wondering whether he was Allen or he was Nea and Nea took this opportunity to take over. Nea is awake and Allen could be still dreaming. It's kind of like Zhuang Zi's butterfly dream, there are differences between two things, but then in dreams, one can be the other so differences are not absolute. Anyway, the main point is that dreams are really important (but that's kind of obvious). That really made my head spin.

Or did the Noah awake within Allen, and Allen/Nea is still dreaming? I find this both a little bit of a paradox and fascinating at the same time. (Since Tyki's Noah was different from Tyki just having control on both his human and Noah identities.) I get what you mean by the dream thing. There is no absolute answer to all of this. And my head is spinning too, but the mind craves for more truth of the situation. It doesn't even help that I'm watching Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood where that deals with the splitting of the soul from the body and super humans being created from a single stone filled with human souls.

(You know, I think we really should contribute our theories to that massive theory wall thread on TvTropes just for the record. No one's using Nea's real spelling of his name in that section so it's good to promote it....)

[Mysterious_Kaitou]

Even if memories are damaged, records and wills stay the same... but the author will not reveal too much stuff either way. In this case, only a few people are not being affected. Otherwise when Nea truly awakens, the memories will come back clearly?

TVTropes hides spoilers by default so the KH pages should be safe. Which game have you catched up with? I don't really think that there's Dream Drop Distance spoilers seeing that the English version is not even out yet.

Actually I read KHR! for the Tsuna fights because I'm too biased to him and then the explanation chapters. The plot behind every arc is interesting though, from rival boss families to time travelling to save everyone etc. The ridiculousness of it all just attracts me I suppose.

I always wonder to what extent night!Rikuo and day!Rikuo are the same or different. It's kind of frustrating that they don't have much interaction, seeng that they only spoke to each other like 2 times in the series out of 200+ chapters. Every time it happens, I spazz so much though. Ah, then there isn't that much to catch up for Nuramago for you then. It can get a bit boring at times but Shiibashi-sensei's art is always amazing.

Oh well, at least Lavi isn't like Leo from PH who is bleeding to death on the ground for IDK how many chapters. Even Bookman doesn't know everything because Hoshino-sensei does. FLASHBACK ARC PLEASE.

Then besides maskception, there's personalityception. Masks are not personalities because one can have masks and no split personalities. I think the difference between the mask and the split personality is the awareness level of consciousness? I can't comment any more due to my head spinning and it doesn't help that the weather's really warm. LET'S SCREAM AND GIVE ALL OUR LOVE TO HOSHINO-SENSEI.

Oh, FMA is really mindfucking in terms of the experiments but nothing screams mindfuck as much as split personalities. I'm sad that it's over though, I miss Edward so much as I like him as much as Allen (maybe because they are so similar).

I should go compile a list on all the speculations and theories I have about Nea and Allen's relationship so that we can refer to it when the truth is revealed. I don't post or have an account on TVTropes though. I always lurk too much in fandoms, like how I only post in DGM forums whenever there's an exciting chapter (meaning that Nea takes over LOL) ;_;

[abyozuu]

allen and nea reminds me prince/dark prince from the prince of persia the two throne

[capricorn]

In literature (specifically in drama) the image of the mask is used symbolically to represent deception. One of the things I noticed with many d gray man characters (specifically: Allen, Cross, Link, Lenalee, Kanda and most of all Lavi) is that they tend to try to conceal their true personalities and feelings behind an act of falsehood which is convenient to them. I also believe the image of the clown can be used simularly. I'll explain:

Allen: perhaps the most obvious case because more than just concealing his true personality behind that of Mana's, he honestly doesn't even know what his true self is. And as explained by Tyki in chapter 205 this is really the thing that causes Allen so much conflict within this series.

Cross : I believe chapter 206 shows his case well enough. Him and Kanda somewhat share a simularity in this category because they both tend to conceal the softer side of there personality behind a hardened cortex of sorts.

Link and Lavi: These two are in similar positions characterized by the issue of Duty vs Humanity. In this series both Link and Lavi have jobs/ responsibilities that require them to set aside basic human emotions and attachments in order to carry through with their tasks effectively despite whatever circumstance.

Lenalee: little miss rainbows and sunshine...... I think not.. One of the reasons I like Lenalee so much is because she impresses me as a very realistic character. Lenalee often presents herself as the image of kindnesss and charity, but in reality Lenalee has said herself that despite the fact that she has the responsibility of trying to save humanity, she would sacrifice the entire world if it meant to save her family and friends alone.

There are other characters too like the Earl for example. But I,m too lazy to get into that.

*On a side note. I think i'm one of the few people that doesn't see Allen and Edward being that simular in personality. Perhaps they have simular assets and experiences attached to them, like the fact that they both tried to resurrect parents from the dead or that they are both cheaters (LOL) and have great street smarts but there are some major differences as well. An example of which can be seen when we look at what their goals or purposes are in their respective series. What drove Edward was his need for the philosopher's stones in order to restore his brother,s body. What drives Allen is his promise he made to Mana, personal pity for the soles of akuma, the need to save humans as well, and pretty much whatever the hell else he can find to keep himself busy. The thing with Edward is that his goals are not as abstract and grand in scale whilst Allen's are. I think the biggest contrast however comes when we look at them psychologically, which can be best seen in terms of how they both dealt with the reality of their parents' deaths. Edward has a highly scientific mind so to deal with the trauma he experienced as a child he would cling to the scientific knowledge that he has to avoid going mad. Allen on the other hand has a more idealistic way of thinking so he had no efffective means to escape the trauma of his childhood. That's why he used Mana's personality as almost a means to protect what sanity he has left. So yes, what i'm really saying is that Allen strikes me as crazy/ schizophrenic LOL.

[tgirl]

Even if memories are damaged, records and wills stay the same... but the author will not reveal too much stuff either way. In this case, only a few people are not being affected. Otherwise when Nea truly awakens, the memories will come back clearly?

Right. I don't expect much to be revealed either at this point in time. Just a little bit of the truth enough to get every single one of us salivating.

You made a good theory/point on that. I didn't think of everyone's memories being affected by Nea's "half-awakening" if that's what he's going through. Once all the memories come back, then everyone else (Noah-wise, at least) will remember his face completely.

Most of the Noah will probably all go: "Oh my gosh!! It really was Allen all this time!! Whhhaaa....!? How's that possible!?"
Road on the other hand will go, "Tee hee... Now you know why I keep hugging and kissing him." *grin*
Sheril: *weeps* "I demand a handsome reward for anyone who brings me the head of the 14th!! He stole my daughter twice!!"

TVTropes hides spoilers by default so the KH pages should be safe. Which game have you catched up with? I don't really think that there's Dream Drop Distance spoilers seeing that the English version is not even out yet.

I'm up to date with all of them, except for DDD (which is what I'm avoiding). Dream Drop Distance was released in Japan so there have been spoilers floating about in KH related forums. Not sure about TVTropes, but I'll take your word for it that they hide spoilers by default. ^^;

Actually I read KHR! for the Tsuna fights because I'm too biased to him and then the explanation chapters. The plot behind every arc is interesting though, from rival boss families to time travelling to save everyone etc. The ridiculousness of it all just attracts me I suppose.

I see. ^__^ Some time traveling involved, huh? That makes sense...

I always wonder to what extent night!Rikuo and day!Rikuo are the same or different. It's kind of frustrating that they don't have much interaction, seeng that they only spoke to each other like 2 times in the series out of 200+ chapters. Every time it happens, I spazz so much though. Ah, then there isn't that much to catch up for Nuramago for you then. It can get a bit boring at times but Shiibashi-sensei's art is always amazing.

I always felt that the night and day Rikuos merged a little? Like, day!Rikuo didn't remember what happened to him when he was little, but after transforming into his youkai self after such a long time, he remembered the past event. I always thought that was the case. It's just the youkai blood in Rikuo that may affect his personality a little, but he's still sort of the same person (asides from gaining super powers). But both parts of Rikuo spoke to each other, eh? Hmm.... It's quite a complex connection they have then. I definitely have a long way to catch up, but I don't mind. And yeah, I can imagine that I'll run into some boring parts. I did enjoy some of the "filler" stories though in the beginning arcs.

Oh well, at least Lavi isn't like Leo from PH who is bleeding to death on the ground for IDK how many chapters. Even Bookman doesn't know everything because Hoshino-sensei does. FLASHBACK ARC PLEASE.

Yeah.
That's totally true. Even the Bookmen do not know everything compared to the mangaka and her team. (That's kind of unfair. Haha...)

Then besides maskception, there's personalityception. Masks are not personalities because one can have masks and no split personalities. I think the difference between the mask and the split personality is the awareness level of consciousness? I can't comment any more due to my head spinning and it doesn't help that the weather's really warm. LET'S SCREAM AND GIVE ALL OUR LOVE TO HOSHINO-SENSEI.

Right. When a person wears a mask, it's to cover up intentionally a personality that's already there. So, the person is conscious about it all the time. A split personality can go both conscious and unconsciously depending on the situation (to me, at least).

*screams for Hoshino!!!!*

Oh, FMA is really mindfucking in terms of the experiments but nothing screams mindfuck as much as split personalities. I'm sad that it's over though, I miss Edward so much as I like him as much as Allen (maybe because they are so similar).

I don't find the FMA experimentation to be that mind-blowing, but I do find them to be pretty sad. A bunch of people's souls stuck in another person's body. (Kingdom Hearts' hearts within a body can probably match that...) As you said, FMA can't compare to the concept of split personalities (except for Brotherhood's Greed). I still think that what happened in Tsubasa: RC is to be one of the most induced headache stories I've ever read (even if it's not much of a surprise from CLAMP).

Just like capricorn, I also don't exactly find Allen and Edward to be that similar except for losing an arm and trying to bring back someone from the dead. The only time their hairstyles match was during the "Destruction of the Black Order" silly arc with the possessed spirit. ^_^

I should go compile a list on all the speculations and theories I have about Nea and Allen's relationship so that we can refer to it when the truth is revealed. I don't post or have an account on TVTropes though. I always lurk too much in fandoms, like how I only post in DGM forums whenever there's an exciting chapter (meaning that Nea takes over LOL) ;_;

Yay. ^o^

And I see. I feel an urge to create one.

That's why he used Mana's personality as almost a means to protect what sanity he has left. So yes, what i'm really saying is that Allen strikes me as crazy/ schizophrenic LOL.

You made a very nice detailed analysis about their masks and personalities. You're right that a lot of the characters are hiding their true faces during certain times.

Allen = crazy/schizo though? I can get the "using Mana's personality" as a means of protection, but to go as far as label it as a symptom of being crazy? O___o

[Mysterious_Kaitou]

That theory of people's memories being affected came from KH where everyone only remembered Sora as he awakens because of Namine's manipulating of his memories. I think the Noah are slowly getting their memories of Nea back and this chapter would cause more memories to come back. If Nea fully awakens, it's going to be epic with how everyone remembers everything about him because the Earl will rage so much or something.

Even the 3D TVTropes page marks its spoilers so if you highlight spoilers, it's uh, your problem if you get spoiled. I don't have a 3DS and I actually never played any of the KH games so I read spoilers to keep up and I don't mind spoilers... As for the character pages, it's marked by game and even re:coded spoilers are marked for general tropes.

KHR!'s time travelling lasted like 150+ chapters. I was lucky when I started reading KHR, only the final battle arc was left and but slightly sad when I started after the biggest reveal of the arc about someone's death ten years later.

I think day!Rikuo becomes more like night!Rikuo but maybe slightly as he becomes more badass to be able to fight against youkai even when he's in human form. They spoke to each other in chapter 40 and 192 IIRC. I also loved the filler parts in the beginning until I missed the Kiyo squad so much later on and I'm glad to see them in the Tokyo invasion arc, especially when Kiyotsugu also helped Rikuo too.

A mask has no consciousness while a split personality has consciousness. When both personalities are conscious when a split personality is conscious, a battle in the mind would take place. Those battles are the most exciting, but heart to heart chats are nice too. Which is why I love selfcest/split personality pairings.

Greed/Ling was one of my most favourite FMA ships too. KH and PH rank on top of my mindfucking series list. When I said that Allen and Edward are similar, it's just their situation and how they had to go through a lot. I know that their personalities are rather different with the biggest difference as how Edward is much more short-tempered than Allen.

@ capricorn: That was a really detailed analysis of the masks, I like how you included the other characters too.

Allen is defintiely not schizo. Don't mind me, but I do study a bit of psychology, so I know that schizophrenia means that the person cannot differentiate reality and fantasy. It's not the case for Allen although the dreams are kind of creepy and realistic in this series. As for the crazy part, Allen at most probably suffers from post traumatic stress disorder (for that while after Mana's death) and a bit of dissociative identity disorder (casting aside Red, patching himself with Mana and now there's Nea) but that's probably more of Nea than himself. I think Allen is not crazy as of now but I wonder how much he can go on without breaking/snapping. ;_;

[tgirl]

That theory of people's memories being affected came from KH where everyone only remembered Sora as he awakens because of Namine's manipulating of his memories. I think the Noah are slowly getting their memories of Nea back and this chapter would cause more memories to come back. If Nea fully awakens, it's going to be epic with how everyone remembers everything about him because the Earl will rage so much or something.

Ah, you took that from KH. Hm.. Applying what happened in KH2 to this isn't such a bad idea... Yeah... O__o I can picture the Earl going into madness once he remembers, out of everyone. (And I wonder if the Sheril and Road --- "father" and "daughter" relationship will even stay the same when that happens?)

Even the 3D TVTropes page marks its spoilers so if you highlight spoilers, it's uh, your problem if you get spoiled. I don't have a 3DS and I actually never played any of the KH games so I read spoilers to keep up and I don't mind spoilers... As for the character pages, it's marked by game and even re:coded spoilers are marked for general tropes.

Well, I paid a visit to the TVTropes' KH theory section earlier today (well, my yesterday now), and I just couldn't make myself scroll all the way beyond the beginning section. ;____; I forgot that some people do "respond" to these theories sometimes with the right answers without any spoiler tags. I just didn't feel like taking any chances when I saw Axel's human name in the question. It seems those theories spread towards the future.

I'm a bit impressed that you seem to be following the series well without playing any of the games as I rarely come across people like you. I know that people, in your situation, do exist though. You seem to understand KH much better than some of the people, who only played some of the games, and then, complain that they don't understand the story at all. ^___^ *thumbs up* By the way, I suggest visiting here if you feel that you haven't gotten the entire story down pat. Do not rely on the Wikis because those aren't too reliable. Tip: If you ever do try out the series in your lifetime, play in the order of release order. Not the timeline order. Reason: gameplay system

(I have pretty much played all of the localized KH games, except for re:coded. I don't really play too many video games, but KH is one series where I know I have enough time to play with because I just simply take my time on it.)

And to tie KH back to DGM, KH takes an interesting approach to the whole memory, heart and body thing. KH doesn't rely on reincarnation, but it still has its share of characters with memory problems. (BbS spoiler => leads into DDD a little, but from a long time ago)

Terra with Master Xehanort's heart Ven's heart inside of Sora. There was even a slight mistranslated quote awhile back during DDD's development along the lines of "what if your feelings/emotions are not really your own?" (towards Sora).

KHR!'s time travelling lasted like 150+ chapters. I was lucky when I started reading KHR, only the final battle arc was left and but slightly sad when I started after the biggest reveal of the arc about someone's death ten years later.

O___o Wow.. 150+ chapters of time traveling!? There had to be a lot of fighting involved in that one. ^^;

I think day!Rikuo becomes more like night!Rikuo but maybe slightly as he becomes more badass to be able to fight against youkai even when he's in human form. They spoke to each other in chapter 40 and 192 IIRC. I also loved the filler parts in the beginning until I missed the Kiyo squad so much later on and I'm glad to see them in the Tokyo invasion arc, especially when Kiyotsugu also helped Rikuo too.

Hmm... So, a bit of night!Rikuo is influencing his day counterpart, huh? Reminds me a little bit of Dark and Daisuke's relationship even more. That's good that day!Rikuo is getting stronger. If day and night!Rikuo ever do merge in some way, the evil youkai will be facing a super enemy for sure.

A mask has no consciousness while a split personality has consciousness. When both personalities are conscious when a split personality is conscious, a battle in the mind would take place. Those battles are the most exciting, but heart to heart chats are nice too. Which is why I love selfcest/split personality pairings.

^__^ Yep yep. Same here. Really love it when two personalities come face to face, and accept one another or just simply chat. I also like it when the memory is involved, like someone is remembering their original personality as a part of their past. I find those kinds of things exciting too. Because then, the person will either end up being traumatized, upset, crazy, sadistic or become stronger (/improved).

(I'm expecting Allen to go the "strong" route somewhere between personality and memory lane...)

Greed/Ling was one of my most favourite FMA ships too. KH and PH rank on top of my mindfucking series list. When I said that Allen and Edward are similar, it's just their situation and how they had to go through a lot. I know that their personalities are rather different with the biggest difference as how Edward is much more short-tempered than Allen.

I find this Greed/Ling dynamic to be interesting. I'm only somewhere in the 30 some episode range so looking forward to seeing how Greed develops because of Ling. ^__^

Hahaha... Edward is DEFINITELY more short-tempered than Allen. Probably more-so in Brotherhood than in the original FMA anime series. I only watched several episodes of the first version FMA awhile back when it use to air on TV. So, I couldn't follow it entirely. It just didn't really suck me in compared to Brotherhood where you have more humor and light hearted situations that break up the seriousness. Since it follows the manga, that pretty much explains why I can't stop watching Brotherhood compared to whenever I think of the first FMA version. (I also understood Brotherhood more than the first version.)

As for KH and PH being both absolute mind boggling series, yep yep. That's why I enjoy them so very much. They both even end in "Hearts" in their names. What I like most about them is that, they can both be pretty unpredictable which is a breather in this world where predictably can be pretty easy to come by in stories. (Especially in Hollywood... Ugh..) And then, when it draws to a close, everything gets explained and you go, "oooooooh... I seeee..." So, despite being mind-wrecks of a series, they still make sense in the end.

However, the award for a crazy mind-wreck story that remains mind-wrecked in the end for me, will always go to Tsubasa:RC. You just can't make it more than it is. It makes sense, but at the same time, it just HURTS your brain. =.=; And you keep asking CLAMP in your head, "whyyy!?"

Not that I'm expecting Hoshino to go the CLAMP way with Allen. That's a bit too cruel... Maybe something close to CLAMP's Gate 7, where it seems the gentle-natured main character, in that one, is possibly the

reincarnation of Nobunaga or someone very powerful? In that case, I bet his personality is going to be different too in the end... O___o

[Mysterious_Kaitou]

Eh, Axel's human name was revealed in KH: 358/Days during a conversation between Axel and Saix? That uh, shouldn't really be a spoiler. But it's likely that spoilers are not all marked since some people forget. For example, my definition of a spoiler is probably the past five chapters of a manga and for games, it's when the Japanese version comes out. I used to spoil many people on things (especially Harry Potter but I don't go SNAPE KILLED DUMBLEDORE though) but I try to be as careful as possible nowadays. For KH, I know 3D spoilers to the extent of knowing who's the final boss and what happens in the secret ending because I'm impatient plus I like Japanese voices better (Irino Miyu and Miyano Mamoru~)

Maybe I have a talent for understanding mindfucking plots? Pfft. Also, thanks for introducing me to that tumblr! I'll read it to understand KH even more if I have the time. I'll never get to try the KH games at all due to lack of consoles. I only got an Xbox Kinect last Christmas and all I played is FFXIII. Other than that, I can run Desmume (a DS emulator) on my laptop. I tried playing KH:358/2 Days but got stuck when stalking Pete. I never tried re:coded yet although I played other games such as The World Ends With You (because of KH:3D), Pokemon BW (got stuck at Elite 4) and World Destruction/Sands of Destruction.

Oh my, with that 'are you sure your feelings/emotions are your own?' thing, it sure goes back to DGM again because of the identity crisis thing. I think KH is the most confusing in terms of personalities which lead to memories and emotions but luckily it's simplified slightly with how the personalities are very distinct.

That's a lot of fighting in KHR!'s time travel arc. Seeing that everyone's future selves have to be introduced and found plus everyone goes to the future separately, and the future's a really dangerous place, there are lots of training and then battles. There's a mindblowing trial, weapon upgrades and also flashbacks along with a battle game played before the actual final battle. The time travel creates lots of paradoxes but it still makes sense.

Hmm, I'd say that day!Rikuo has became more courageous and accepts night!Rikuo as part of himself as the story progresses. The two of them have talents in different areas, with day!Rikuo strategising and probably manipulating others and night!Rikuo executing the plans. day!Rikuo and night!Rikuo do merge when it's almost dawn as shown in few battles but this form is still not strong enough for some enemies.

That reminds me that the Sora/Roxas battle is my most favourite Battle In The Center Of The Mind (YOU MAKE A GOOD OTHER). They also meet in KH:3D and yay because they are my OTP. Another favourite split personality meeting of mine is Switch as the amnesiac main character, Kai has a violent split personality whose only purpose was to protect the weaker Kai from memories related to his parents' murders.

It was really touching when Kai accepts his split personality's memories to properly protect the people he treasures, but breaking himself in the process

That reminds me that I think that Nea would be like both an antagonistic and protective split personality if I defined him as a type of split personality. I noticed that Nea doesn't seem to hate Allen nor really intentionally sabotaging Allen so that has to mean something? Anyway Allen will definitely get stronger, seeing that there are so many cases of Break The Cutie in DGM and he hasn't broken despite so many things that happened.

Greed/Ling gets really interesting in the last few episodes and that's all I'm saying. It gets rather sad but everything else is more significant so it can be missed. I never watched the FMA anime because I can't stand listening to Kugimiya Rie as Alphonse and I'm too attached to Arakawa-sensei's art I suppose.

Sometimes I wonder where does the 'Hearts' in Pandora Hearts comes from. I think it's most probably the memories of everyone? IDEK. Foreshadowings/Chekov's Guns are my most favourite trope ever. The best example ever is Harry Potter in which many reveals can go back to really minor details in earlier instalments. PH and DGM does that best for animanga. Can't comment much for Hollywood but I have to agree with some of the movies I watched :/

TRC gets that award for mindfuck because I can't even understand it although I understand KH perfectly. I saw this on a PH forum before: PH = HP + TRC + Alice In Wonderland.

Is Gate 7 nice? I read the first few chapters and dropped it because it didn't seem too interesting to me... so should I pick it up again?

[tgirl]

Eh, Axel's human name was revealed in KH: 358/Days during a conversation between Axel and Saix? That uh, shouldn't really be a spoiler. But it's likely that spoilers are not all marked since some people forget. For example, my definition of a spoiler is probably the past five chapters of a manga and for games, it's when the Japanese version comes out. I used to spoil many people on things (especially Harry Potter but I don't go SNAPE KILLED DUMBLEDORE though) but I try to be as careful as possible nowadays. For KH, I know 3D spoilers to the extent of knowing who's the final boss and what happens in the secret ending because I'm impatient plus I like Japanese voices better (Irino Miyu and Miyano Mamoru~)

That's the point. Not everyone hides their spoilers. It's not Axel's name that I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of all DDD related spoilers. So, anything that even involves him in DDD, it might be posted there on TVTropes without a warning. ^__^ Hence why I'm not taking any chances. I tried looking at the theories section that are confirmed not to be true, but my will just didn't have it in me to go through all of them.

You spoiled yourself with DDD info. I should stay away from you. (j/k)

I like both English and Japanese voices. The Japanese Disney voices are a pain to hear in my ears though (except for Donald). They're a bit bearable in the Disney Tokyo parks, but that doesn't say much. ^_^

Maybe I have a talent for understanding mindfucking plots? Pfft. Also, thanks for introducing me to that tumblr! I'll read it to understand KH even more if I have the time. I'll never get to try the KH games at all due to lack of consoles. I only got an Xbox Kinect last Christmas and all I played is FFXIII. Other than that, I can run Desmume (a DS emulator) on my laptop. I tried playing KH:358/2 Days but got stuck when stalking Pete. I never tried re:coded yet although I played other games such as The World Ends With You (because of KH:3D), Pokemon BW (got stuck at Elite 4) and World Destruction/Sands of Destruction.

Haha...
And you're welcome. Hope it does enlighten you with some things you didn't know before. They made sure to touch on most of the highlights for all of the games. (The DDD sections won't be ready until after DDD gets released in the West, of course.)

I see. Hm... >__< And sorry to hear that you got stuck while stalking Pete. I know exactly what mission you were on, thus, you haven't gone too far in the game. Wait, is it an emulation freeze or an actual "I can't beat this" stuck? If you're having problems of being caught by Pete, the trick to not being caught is to leave a wide open space between you and him. The edge of your beam has to contain his feet. That's it. By doing it that way, you have enough time to turn when you have to while being able to maintain the stalking beam on him. (Also, if you leave the beam off of him for a second, then it's ok. You won't be penalized.)

I would recommend you to avoid re:coded unless you like to play a KH game that's full of mixed gameplay mechanics. Story-wise, all you have to see is the ending and the secret movie in order to be caught up with everything. At least, you were able to play TWEWY.

Oh my, with that 'are you sure your feelings/emotions are your own?' thing, it sure goes back to DGM again because of the identity crisis thing. I think KH is the most confusing in terms of personalities which lead to memories and emotions but luckily it's simplified slightly with how the personalities are very distinct.

Yeah. It does go back to DGM. ^__^ Allen feels that his love is his own even if some of his "memories" are told to be not from him... , or, are they....?

And really? I don't really feel that confused with the KH personalities pre-DDD. Now, if you're referring to DDD, please don't say anything more! ;___; Ahhhhh...

That's a lot of fighting in KHR!'s time travel arc. Seeing that everyone's future selves have to be introduced and found plus everyone goes to the future separately, and the future's a really dangerous place, there are lots of training and then battles. There's a mindblowing trial, weapon upgrades and also flashbacks along with a battle game played before the actual final battle. The time travel creates lots of paradoxes but it still makes sense.

Well, as long as everything makes sense compared to FFXIII-2's time traveling outcome, then all is well. Paradoxes usually do leave some confusion so their endings either end up being good or bad in some stories. (Noting, I don't own any new gen console system. I followed XIII through livestreams. Same goes with XIII-2, and I'm not exactly sure what to think about both of them, except, XIII-2's ending is just cruel. I also never played a single FF game in my life.)

Hmm, I'd say that day!Rikuo has became more courageous and accepts night!Rikuo as part of himself as the story progresses. The two of them have talents in different areas, with day!Rikuo strategising and probably manipulating others and night!Rikuo executing the plans. day!Rikuo and night!Rikuo do merge when it's almost dawn as shown in few battles but this form is still not strong enough for some enemies.

Oh nice. Glad to see day!Rikuo becoming more developed. So, they do kind of "merge" during dawn? Interesting... Wonder what happens when it becomes longer?

[quote]That reminds me that the Sora/Roxas battle is my most favourite Battle In The Center Of The Mind (YOU MAKE A GOOD OTHER). They also meet in KH:3D and yay because they are my OTP. [quote]

Yeah, I liked that scene too in KH2. Apparently, Final Mix+ had the fuller version of their encounter with a battle. As for what you said after that, oh great. Thaaanks for telling me that they do "meet" in 3D. This better be the only thing. Even though, what you said doesn't sound too major, it's something I never knew would happen when you put it that way. ^^; (Agh.. And just when I thought my spoiler-free record for DDD could never be broken more than what I do know from the trailers. Hehe...)

Another favourite split personality meeting of mine is Switch as the amnesiac main character, Kai has a violent split personality whose only purpose was to protect the weaker Kai from memories related to his parents' murders.

It was really touching when Kai accepts his split personality's memories to properly protect the people he treasures, but breaking himself in the process

I think I almost read the first chapter of this manga, but I never got to reading more of this. I wonder why.... I know this manga caught my interest a few times, but probably because it involved undercover police work. I should put this on my reading list. ^_^ Thanks for the spoiler. Makes me want to read it now. (Or maybe I did read this before, but I forgot?)

That reminds me that I think that Nea would be like both an antagonistic and protective split personality if I defined him as a type of split personality. I noticed that Nea doesn't seem to hate Allen nor really intentionally sabotaging Allen so that has to mean something? Anyway Allen will definitely get stronger, seeing that there are so many cases of Break The Cutie in DGM and he hasn't broken despite so many things that happened.

Hm.. He could be. It's hard to say when we only just saw the 14th wake up like that. Need to see more of him in action. I have no doubt that Allen will get stronger from this point onward, either. Well, that's after we find out where exactly Allen's conscious went. ^;

Greed/Ling gets really interesting in the last few episodes and that's all I'm saying. It gets rather sad but everything else is more significant so it can be missed. I never watched the FMA anime because I can't stand listening to Kugimiya Rie as Alphonse and I'm too attached to Arakawa-sensei's art I suppose.

Ok. There's always a sad part attached to these things so I'm not that surprised. And I see... You have a seiyuu preference. Honestly, I never heard the Japanese FMA voices until Brotherhood so I can't comment on the Japanese Alphonse of the last FMA anime version. Kind of curious now...

Sometimes I wonder where does the 'Hearts' in Pandora Hearts comes from. I think it's most probably the memories of everyone? IDEK. Foreshadowings/Chekov's Guns are my most favourite trope ever. The best example ever is Harry Potter in which many reveals can go back to really minor details in earlier instalments. PH and DGM does that best for animanga. Can't comment much for Hollywood but I have to agree with some of the movies I watched :/

I always thought the "Hearts" came from Alice in Wonderland. The Queen of Hearts. All of PH was themed around that story. The "Hearts" could also relate to the chains who,

as we found out, are the ones who are the pillars that hold the world together.

Hence, I separate the "Hearts" of PH from the meaning of "hearts" in KH. ^__0

Yeah, it's good when stories do go back once they reveal how things are done. As for Hollywood, it's okay. As long as you kind of got the message from whatever you have seen. ^^;

TRC gets that award for mindfuck because I can't even understand it although I understand KH perfectly. I saw this on a PH forum before: PH = HP + TRC + Alice In Wonderland.

I suppose that kind of sums up PH.

In PH, you have Alice's memories scattered, magic being used for both good and bad, and the numerous Alice in Wonderland terminology.

At least, it doesn't end up with clones and their offspring, who are then cloned. @_@ That just makes my head hurt wondering who went first.

Is Gate 7 nice? I read the first few chapters and dropped it because it didn't seem too interesting to me... so should I pick it up again?

Gate 7 is a slow moving manga (since they do a lot of talking), but it's definitely within CLAMP's style so the plot does pick up a little. The English scanlation of it is very slow so I always look at the Chinese scanlations first just to see what's new. I'll just say that it's warming up to me a little. At first, I was just semi-into it, UNTIL, they started to introduce the fact that

everyone is a reincarnation of some past Japanese historical figure, which is kind of nuts, but then, that perfectly explains why everyone is in Kyoto. Kyoto is the historical city of Japan where everything started for it. Also, Hana's own past life is kind of "separated" from her own mind. She meets her when she goes to sleep. Their personalities seem to be close though.

Now, I start to question the main character's own personality because there's always this catch with the "friendly, easy-going, honest, goody-good" characters in manga. With CLAMP introducing him like that, while having some kind of unknown secret power, you know there's something brewing in their minds. Maybe, he'll suffer from multiple personalities too?

The only thing I hope for Gate-7 is for it to not end like Tsubasa (with the crazy cloning) and xxxHolic (with the ending that was super disappointing).

It's up to you if you want to continue reading the manga or not. As I said, the plot does pick up a little later on, but because this is CLAMP, you don't expect answers to be given to you on a silver plate so soon.

[Mysterious_Kaitou]

I'll be out all day tomorrow and going overseas with no internet from Monday to Wednesday so the next time I reply would be Thursday. >.<

Aww, 3D will be out soon in July and I can't wait to see everyone mindblown. You went to Tokyo Disneyland? So jelly. I never went to any Disneylands before...

I watched most of 358/2 Days on YT. I'll probably try those tips but again, I have not much time now. I don't really mind gameplay mechanics because I haven't gamed enough to be discerning enough. The only way I could actually finish TWEWY is because I have a tablet PC so I can use the stylus as a DS stylus.

Elaborating more on the 'are these feelings/emotions yours?', there's a discussion on how Sora is or is not himself due to Ventus.

Seeing that Ventus's heart was in Sora since Sora was four, Ventus has a lot of influence on the person Sora becomes unknowingly. There's how Sora goes: I'VE BECOME PART OF THEIR HEART, JUST AS THEY HAVE BECOME MINE. MY FRIENDS ARE MY POWER! which was originally Ventus's line. Then there's the entire issue with how Sora can use the Keyblade without going through the proper ceromony like Riku and Kairi. The voice in the beginning of KH speaking to Sora is also suspected to be Ventus.

Which leads to this question: When Ventus is properly saved, will Sora still be able to use the Keyblade, and more importantly, still be himself? I feel so sad at how Sora is also having existence issues along with everyone inside him, GDI.

Eh, I though 358/2 Days made the entire Sora/Roxas thing more complicated with Xion, then later BBS contributes to the party in Sora's heart with Ventus and Vanitas. Don't worry, I'm not spoiling 3D but 3D does answer questions about these people in Sora's hearts.

OMG FFXIII-2 endings, don't remind me. I SHALL PRETEND IT NEVER HAPPENED WITH HOPE/LIGHTNING AND SNOW/SERAH LIVING HAPPILY EVER AFTER. I see and I understand watching playthroughs because I did that for KH and ToS:KoR (despite loving the plot with the main character having a split personality and impersonating two dead people by appearance and name, I couldn't get past a minigame on my Wii emulator). What consoles do you own then?

Yeah, day!Rikuo and night!Rikuo merge as their blood mix somehow and he is most powerful in this form. I also love day!Rikuo's development, he even fought against youkai with nothing but a broken pipe with Tsurara in the other hand *A*

Oh crap, I really should be careful with spoilers although I thought Sora meeting Roxas was uh, kind of implied with the trailers showing Roxas and Xion. That moment is really touching and I shouldn't quote what they said in case of spoilers.

Switch only has 28/69 chapters scanlated. I have the scans of Chinese volumes of the rest so I can send it to you if you want it. I actually bought the English volume 13 ($20) because I loved the meeting of Kai and his split personality and Kinokuniya had no stock of the Chinese/Japanese version.

That was the same for Jack in the earlier chapters of PH but now it's revealed that he's evil. Nea is as interesting as Jack for sure. Currently Oz seems to be overpowered by Jack but I hope he gets better soon.

Shipping split personalities as OTP is suffering because split personalities are never meant to be. LKJHGFDSA. But listening to a seiyuu sing with him/herself with different personalities of a same character having a duet is the best thing ever. I love how night!Rikuo and day!Rikuo had two duets by Fukuyama-san.

I still find it weird that young Japanese boys are voiced by women in anime. Kobayashi-san still did a great job with Allen though, with providing shadow!Nea's creepier voice as a bonus. Damn, I wished the DGM anime continued so I can hear her voice a bratty Red, Allen screaming after being Crown Clown'd and Nea speaking. *A*

Pfft, I always had a crack theory that Oz was the son of his own clone for fun. I also had this theory for KHR! because Tsuna and his great great great grandfather Giotto are really similar.

Of course, Beware The Nice Ones and 'still water lies deep'. Main characters are bound to be somebody even if they are not significant at first. Just as long as that somebody is not the destroyer of the world. Thanks to you, I caught up with Gate 7 and I wonder why I dropped it. Everyone is so adorable (Yukimura becomes my new favourite because he looks like Leo from PH and his day job as a kindergarten teacher is hilarious) and at least I can enjoy this ride until the mindfuck comes.

[riki]

Moderator message by: riki

We're getting a bit off-topic. Making analogies to other manga/games/anime is fine, but please make sure that we're discussing about the chapter. Thank you!

[non-chan]

About Nea's weird reaction toward Allen's appearance although they have met each other (chapter 198), I think the Apocryphos has something to do with it (couldn't he rewrite one's memory). And there is Apocryphos in volume 24 advertisement (at the end of volume 23), he may make his appearance soon enough (Nea has touch his precious Allen anyway)

[capricorn]

That's actually a really good point, but I wonder why Allen hasn't lost any of his memory? Also, there was an advertisment in volume 23 preluding Apocryphos's appearance? Where?