DGM Chapter 214 Discussion

[non-chan]

That's actually a really good point, but I wonder why Allen hasn't lost any of his memory? Also, there was an advertisment in volume 23 preluding Apocryphos's appearance? Where?

Allen's dark skin returned to normal when Apocryphos was trying to "help" him, so maybe it affected Nea, not Allen, right?
We could see Apo-san here, at the final page of volume 23

[tgirl]

I've pretty much replied everything, except for this one, via PM so we stay on course with DGM. Take your time on getting back to me, Kaitou!!

I still find it weird that young Japanese boys are voiced by women in anime. Kobayashi-san still did a great job with Allen though, with providing shadow!Nea's creepier voice as a bonus. Damn, I wished the DGM anime continued so I can hear her voice a bratty Red, Allen screaming after being Crown Clown'd and Nea speaking. *A*

Really? Hmm.... Women voices are used so they don't have to worry about puberty. The only rare occurrence, I know of, for a boy to be voiced by an actual young boy would be in Spirited Away.

I don't watch the DGM anime, but I did keep repeating the 14th's song on Youtube just so I could hear what it would sound like. She definitely does a good job with Allen's voice as well as the singing voice. Yeah, it would've been great to hear how bratty Red sounded like, eh? And also, to hear Nea's voice..... :< Well, I always imagined Nea's voice, when he was talking to a tied up Allen, to be using Allen's voice for some reason.

About Nea's weird reaction toward Allen's appearance although they have met each other (chapter 198), I think the Apocryphos has something to do with it (couldn't he rewrite one's memory). And there is Apocryphos in volume 24 advertisement (at the end of volume 23), he may make his appearance soon enough (Nea has touch his precious Allen anyway)

Actually, now that you posted it, that volume ad is definitely just for Volume 24. The big white kanji literally says, "in the next volume". It's not foreshadowing whatever happens beyond 24, but of course, we'll see the Apo guy in the near future. ^__^ Just not that picture of him.

Never really thought of the Apo guy being a source of Allen's skin change, but that's possible. However, it's also important to note, as you said, that he can change/remove people's memories.

[relory]

"Uncle is where that strangely colored smoke is coming from"
"Weirdness runs in the family~"

Is it just me or could this "strangely colored" smoke be some sort of magic?
Could it be that Nea's family practiced magic/sorcery?
From the short memory, Nea and his mom seem to be of the more.. spiritual kind. Nea "talking" to the wind, his mama greeting the tree.. they seem to enjoy nature, at least? xD

I may be over-analysing again, but still... It's "almost" canon (alas, only in the fandom) that Cross Marian learned his sorcery after following the 14th, if not from the 14th. And big sorcery-families(Epstain, Chang) seems to be a running thing in DGM

.... I don't know what importance this really has, but it's still interesting to me

[capricorn]

I was actually thinking that originally the strangely colored smoke came from a destroyed akuma but you're reasonning seems plausible as well. Judging from their appearance (like their black hair, just sayin ) and the two quotes you mentioned, Nea's family strike me as a family of gypsies (or related to gypses). So it would make sense for them to practice sorcery. Gypsies are also very spiritual and so your example of their mother greeting the tree was also very useful but another possibility could be that a past relative of theirs had been buried at that location. This would still support our claim though as highly spiritual people always pay homage to the dead. I guess now another missing link to support this is which country they reside in http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Gypsy

[relory]

Interesting points!!

I didn't even consider a possible akuma-attack! That's def also a possibility, though I still lean more on sorcery
But your post reminded me of something.. *rereads older chapters* Remember Kanda's memories of his past self's death from chapter 191? Doesn't the wheat and grass look eerily familiar to the scenery in ch 213-214...? I honestly think it's a just a creeeeepy coincidence, buuut we never know... if it isn't then my mind is blown away once again xD

[tgirl]

I was actually thinking that originally the strangely colored smoke came from a destroyed akuma but you're reasonning seems plausible as well. Judging from their appearance (like their black hair, just sayin ) and the two quotes you mentioned, Nea's family strike me as a family of gypsies (or related to gypses). So it would make sense for them to practice sorcery. Gypsies are also very spiritual and so your example of their mother greeting the tree was also very useful but another possibility could be that a past relative of theirs had been buried at that location. This would still support our claim though as highly spiritual people always pay homage to the dead. I guess now another missing link to support this is which country they reside in http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Gypsy

Usually, people with black hair are associated with gypsies/Roma in Europe. Gypsies are associated with "witchcraft" and "thievery". You made a good point. I also thought the word "gypsy" when I saw everyone's hair. However, gypsies are always on the move. In DGM, these black hair people are living in a mansion and seem to live a sort of rich lifestyle. The only thing that could tie them to gypsies is the nature aspect. Real-life gypsies do not have a true home to call their own. (Heh, the Full Metal Alchemist movie actually touched on this subject.)

On the strange one hand analogy, all the Noahs have black hair and are always on the move in terms of reincarnating... o__o Most people, the humans, do not like the Noah and label them as pure evil. In real life, a lot of Europeans do not like the Roma and label them with an instant black paintbrush. (Even the "Hunchback of Notre Dame" movie/book doesn't really do much help to these people, who lack a country and could probably care less of having no country...)

On another analogy, circus people are always traveling in order to entertain people. Unlike the Roma, these people work in stunts and some magic tricks. People like the circus, and the circus people love doing what they do. All the circus people come from different backgrounds and countries in order to form a good team. Most circus people are paitned with a pure white paintbrush. (Now, with the animal related circuses, they are stained with lots of conspiracy.)

Food for thought. I have no idea what to do with these two differences and tie them back to DGM....

Interesting points!!

I didn't even consider a possible akuma-attack! That's def also a possibility, though I still lean more on sorcery
But your post reminded me of something.. *rereads older chapters* Remember Kanda's memories of his past self's death from chapter 191? Doesn't the wheat and grass look eerily familiar to the scenery in ch 213-214...? I honestly think it's a just a creeeeepy coincidence, buuut we never know... if it isn't then my mind is blown away once again xD

I never really connected the dots like that, but that is an eerie coincidence. Thanks for bringing that up.

As you said, that scene takes place in:

1) A wheat field.
Going further...
2) There's an explosion on the right hand side.
3) After that, a smoke will come out from that explosion, which will be seen as "strange" to just about anyone nearby.
3) This happened in an unspecified amount of years ago.
4) My brain just went..... "What ARE the chances that Hoshino connects Kanda's past life to the 14th's existence?"
5) That just ties Allen and Kanda's relationship even further through previous lives if a portion of Kaitou and my theories come true.
6) That'll be epic if that really happened. *foam foam*
7) That means Kanda will SERIOUSLY have to access his past life's memory just to remember if he was fighting a Noah before his death. Or, he came across a Noah battle with his dearly beloved. One piece of the puzzle that probably even the Bookman don't know about. (Or maybe yeah.... ... Er... Nevermind then if they were "silent witnesses" to this attack.)
8) Flowers/lotus in Kanda's flashback. Wind in Nea's. This nature thing has to mean something, huh?

It would make sense for Nea's family to be a group of magic/sorcery bloodline, because that allows him to conjure up several different spells such as converting Akuma (- or I see it as breaking the Akuma from the Earl's control). And it's not Noah-only spells that Nea seems to know of, otherwise, Cross wouldn't know some of them.

I think we're onto something three weeks into the month. Everyone here is cranking out some good theory food.

[non-chan]

I knda thought the same thing too when reading chapter 213, but since Kanda died 30 years ago and Nea died before that, it's clearly the strange smoke wasn't the smoke from Kanda's memory.
If my words are so confusing, please take a look at the timeline chart below (I'm sorry that my English is horrible)

[lanablack]

I think Kanda's past life died 30 years BEFORE he woke up as 2nd exorcist? That would mean Kanda's past self died 39 years ago, before Neah killed the Noahs. But I don't think Kanda have something to do with the 14th. Hoshino hersself already said she won't write about Kanda's past anymore. And I think we have a perfect ending for Kanda's past, bring it up again is not necessary and also it will be too cruel for Kanda ...

[non-chan]

^Uhmmm...I took that from this line

*His original (real) body was killed in action about 30 years ago (JC22 current volume

As far as I understand this, it said his death was 30 years until things in JC22 occured.
Focussing on Kanda's past again is not a really good idea (but knowing Hoshino, we will never know) but I think a brief appearance is nice. Young!Cross will get involved in this arc anyway so it would be weird with no Black Order or its previous member reference.

[relory]

As you said, that scene takes place in:

1) A wheat field.
Going further...
2) There's an explosion on the right hand side.
3) After that, a smoke will come out from that explosion, which will be seen as "strange" to just about anyone nearby.
3) This happened in an unspecified amount of years ago.

It's very eerie indeed! D8 ... And I just had to add one more :

4) Pre-Kanda is then crushed by a scary If-Allen-and-Mana-and-Earl-Merged-and-Became-An-AKUMA...
Perhaps it's a vague clue that Kanda's past is connected with Allen's/14th's... or maybe it's just a creeeeeeepy coincidence. I.. still think so.




But the thing is, with Hoshino, we never know! As we do know, she's known to be leaving more and/or less subtle "hints", for instance - BEHOLD MY AMAZING MANGA-SOURCES cough-nerd-cough::

• Allen wearing the "Crown Clown" back in chapter 3. EDIT: Waaait a minute.. isn't that the same pattern as in my next example? O.o And there's a black butterfly..? ....TYKI?? O_o *faints* I should go to sleep now, haha..
• Tyki leaning against a broken wall with the same pattern as the one on Allen's "chair"... on the cover of chapter 43!! that's about 6 years ago.. O_O
• Alma smiling similarly to "that woman" (aaah, I remember that discussion, I have to admit I was one of those who were like "naaaah, that's probably a coincidence.." )
• Road and Tyki wearing the mysterious Crest that is seen in the musical score.. and on Mana's jacket (Hey - maybe it's the Noah's clothing brand? The Earl isn't just limited to hat-making, he's also the designer behind the well-dressed Noah family!

So, my point is.... that one should never completely dismiss any theory in this manga, because we never know what Hoshino has in store for us? And we never know just how much she has thought this through.. I personally think she's not always completely honest in her interviews, whenever she answers something like "oh, it doesn't mean anything, I just thought it looked cool/cute" or "I randomly made it up yesterday". She just seems like the type to be embarassed by her own ideas ... okay, now I'm random again

I think we're onto something three weeks into the month. Everyone here is cranking out some good theory food.

Yes!! It's great to have an ongoing discussion! ^^ Makes the days go by just a little faster~

[lanablack]

Allen wearing the "Crown Clown" back in chapter 3. EDIT: Waaait a minute.. isn't that the same pattern as in my next example? O.o And there's a black butterfly..? ....TYKI?? O_o *faints* I should go to sleep now, haha..
Tyki leaning against a broken wall with the same pattern as the one on Allen's "chair"... on the cover of chapter 43!! that's about 6 years ago.. O_O

I think the patterns & butterfly can just be her favorite or style or something, coz it's just chapter's covers, yes it can be her hint, but it's hardly important & i don't think we can use it to prove anything

Same with this

Alma smiling similarly to "that woman" (aaah, I remember that discussion, I have to admit I was one of those who were like "naaaah, that's probably a coincidence.." )

I think it's just her drawing style at that time that makes they look similar (I still have to check Alma Arc again to make sure ...), coz that person's smile at first is totally different . I remember she said somewhere that the thing she secretly make Alma & that person similar is their sidelocks ... (or sth like that, cant really remember)

Road and Tyki wearing the mysterious Crest that is seen in the musical score.. and on Mana's jacket (Hey - maybe it's the Noah's clothing brand? The Earl isn't just limited to hat-making, he's also the designer behind the well-dressed Noah family!

But THIS, this is definitely an important hint!! I can't believe I never pay attention to that symbol. On Mana's jacket & the musical score, yes, it's kinda obvious, but never on Road & Tyki's clothes!! (Especially on Tyki's shoes!!!!)

I personally think she's not always completely honest in her interviews, whenever she answers something like "oh, it doesn't mean anything, I just thought it looked cool/cute" or "I randomly made it up yesterday".

I think she may say this to hide her idea, but if she said no but then still do it, that will be ... a lie? I don't think an author should do that ... I cant explain my thought clear on this one T_T

[capricorn]

I've got one. Look for the sigil of the ram with the star on its head herehttp://www.mangareader.net/210-15209...apter-118.html and herehttp://www.mangareader.net/210-38147...apter-188.html

I think the Alma smiling was exactly like "that woman/person" on purpose even the first time I read it ,to me it felt like Hoshino was giving an obvious hint because referring back to that specific chapter you even see where Alma and "that woman" share the same exact pose and even their facial structures match.

The symbols on Tyki and Road's shoes, I had noticed the first time but not the one on Mana's jacket (good catch by the way). I've always just assumed it was the Kamelot family coat of arms or something..... now that you showed me mana however I'm no longer so sure.

The symbolic foreshadowing to the crown clown was also a good one. You can see that the hand with the skull is for the akuma and the other with the cross for humanity. Chapter 3 you say... wow that's amazing because that's long before Allen even made such a resolve, in fact back in the day he was mostly just about the akuma.

[tgirl]

^Uhmmm...I took that from this line

As far as I understand this, it said his death was 30 years until things in JC22 occured.
Focussing on Kanda's past again is not a really good idea (but knowing Hoshino, we will never know) but I think a brief appearance is nice. Young!Cross will get involved in this arc anyway so it would be weird with no Black Order or its previous member reference.

Hmm.. So "about 30 years" sounds more like an estimation to me, but that's about right. Thanks for the timeline.

After further examining the picture of Kanda's previous life and the smoke, there are actually two smoke plumes. Not one. Furthermore, Kanda's past incident took place in what looks like the spring season. Nea's memory involves what looks like autumn since that tree has no leaves. So that kind of rules out any coincidence, except for the wheatfield, between Kanda's previous life's death and Nea's family home. However, the abundant usage of the wheatfield imagery is gnawing on my mind! O__O Hoshino is officially obsessed with fields and smoke.

It's very eerie indeed! D8 ... And I just had to add one more :

4) Pre-Kanda is then crushed by a scary If-Allen-and-Mana-and-Earl-Merged-and-Became-An-AKUMA...
Perhaps it's a vague clue that Kanda's past is connected with Allen's/14th's... or maybe it's just a creeeeeeepy coincidence. I.. still think so.

Allen merged with Mana and the Earl =...an Akuma!? I wouldn't be too sure what to make of that. Well, with Allen being part of Akuma, there goes the story of DGM?

After what I stated above in response to non, I do think of it as a possible vague clue because Kanda's past was "alive" during the 14th's time. Even if their deaths are several years apart. Wait.... There should be some kind of connection. Kanda "was" an exorcist prior to his death, after all. We could probably even see Kanda's past takes a semi-cameo appearance into bumping into Nea. Hoshino officially concluded Kanda's past, but I took that as that she won't touch on his backstory ever again. However, she never stated that she'll bring up any form of the past with Kanda's past self in it since the interviewer never popped the question (or thought that far ahead).

That would still kind of connect Allen with Kanda in some sense.

All these wheatfield appearances are driving me insane. It can't be helped because now I can't see the (US car insurance) GEICO commercials with that gecko doing a Gladiator parody walking through a wheatfield the same. Would it be a coincidence that she placed the mansion in the middle of a wheatfield, of all places that are out of sight, instead of some hidden magical forest with talking animals? Well, I don't know! It would be a little disappointing if all these wheatfield appearances mean nothing in the end and they are all just coincidences.

Freaky though? Yes!

But the thing is, with Hoshino, we never know! As we do know, she's known to be leaving more and/or less subtle "hints", for instance - BEHOLD MY AMAZING MANGA-SOURCES cough-nerd-cough::

• Allen wearing the "Crown Clown" back in chapter 3. EDIT: Waaait a minute.. isn't that the same pattern as in my next example? O.o And there's a black butterfly..? ....TYKI?? O_o *faints* I should go to sleep now, haha..
• Tyki leaning against a broken wall with the same pattern as the one on Allen's "chair"... on the cover of chapter 43!! that's about 6 years ago.. O_O
• Alma smiling similarly to "that woman" (aaah, I remember that discussion, I have to admit I was one of those who were like "naaaah, that's probably a coincidence.." )
• Road and Tyki wearing the mysterious Crest that is seen in the musical score.. and on Mana's jacket (Hey - maybe it's the Noah's clothing brand? The Earl isn't just limited to hat-making, he's also the designer behind the well-dressed Noah family!

Yes, we would never know what's really in her mind. Her mind works like it's lost in the middle of a wheatfield... Noooo!! I gotta stop thinking about it! >__< MUST STooopp...

And those are an excellent set of observations. Some of them, I'll definitely check them out.

Not sure if Chapter 3 is considered a total foreshadowing as it was only the third chapter, but I wouldn't be surprised if she looked at it for inspiration for Crown Clown.
I'm still waiting for a relevance with the splash chapter of Allen with that long awesome staff and his hair is super long.... Doubt that would go anywhere though. He just looked cool/mythical/ancient.... ^^;

As for Alma and that "smile", that was beautiful foreshadowing as some people did start to wonder if Alma actually carried her soul or not. (Other than the fact that"alma" means "soul" so Alma definitely had to contain a soul of someone important.)

So, my point is.... that one should never completely dismiss any theory in this manga, because we never know what Hoshino has in store for us?

She just seems like the type to be embarassed by her own ideas ... okay, now I'm random again

Yep. Completely agree with this. Even if they sound as loony as the Earl being Santa Claus! Any theory would do, but maybe not as crack sounding as the Earl = Santa.

Hm... Really? I think she' just playing it a little safe. Plus, her editor makes some of the calls on how the manga should be presented. i.e. In the last Reverse novel, the editor didn't want everything to be spoiled, which is on an event that hasn't even taken place yet in the manga in the land of flashbacks. (Unless, Hoshino intends to tie Nea's past to Allen's....)

It's ok. Random rambling is healthy for this thread.

I even thought of an event worth remembering:

Road wants Allen to remember that he's "Allen". I wonder if this is symbolic foreshadowing in any way other than to simply make him remember that he shouldn't let Kanda's memories overtake him? Which is rather ironic about how the Noah memory works.....

Yes!! It's great to have an ongoing discussion! ^^ Makes the days go by just a little faster~

Yeah. Especially when the posts are very long, they do help make the days go by faster. ((Procrastinating on a message board. Whooo..))

[non-chan]

Everyone, is it just me or we are becoming more and more crazy? Well, as long as it keeps us from going berserk because of the waiting, nevermind

Nea's memory involves what looks like autumn since that tree has no leaves.

The tree could be dead already, and Nea's mother might be talking to someone's soul named Cornellia who was trapped/haunting/stucked/etc...whatever makes it be inside the tree

About the wheatfield, we have seen chibi!Lavi in one too! Coincidence every one? (Hoshino has already stated the Bookman story related to 14th's past)

And Alma...No one noticed our poor little Kanda's illusion began to surfaced ONLY whenever Alma was nearby? (except for the time Kanda got near Marie, when things were far from worst and due to Marie is an exorcist, his memory would be regain)

*screaming time*

"Unwanted" relationship between Cross and Nea, Cross being a womanizer and "I KNOW ALMOST EVERYTHING, including the 14th Noah's host would be someone named Allen who would some random day appear in front of 14th Noah's brother Mana!"guy, Lvellie's hater deep down inside, redhaired, etc etc OMG HE IS LAVI (a certain one said this before but I didn't believe at first)

[Bloomerwedgies]

Oh noes you guys, stawp it
No more Kanda drama *sob*
I love him, he's one of my faves, but his story already took more than a year's worth of chapters to suss out...I was really hoping everyone could move on (especially Kanda--he deserves to be free from the disturbing visions of his nightmarish past/s)(and so do we).

Everyone, is it just me or we are becoming more and more crazy? Well, as long as it keeps us from going berserk because of the waiting, nevermind


The tree could be dead already, and Nea's mother might be talking to someone's soul named Cornellia who was trapped/haunting/stucked/etc...whatever makes it be inside the tree

About the wheatfield, we have seen chibi!Lavi in one too! Coincidence every one? (Hoshino has already stated the Bookman story related to 14th's past)


*screaming time*

"Unwanted" relationship between Cross and Nea, Cross being a womanizer and "I KNOW ALMOST EVERYTHING, including the 14th Noah's host would be someone named Allen who would some random day appear in front of 14th Noah's brother Mana!"guy, Lvellie's hater deep down inside, redhaired, etc etc OMG HE IS LAVI (a certain one said this before but I didn't believe at first)

I, too, think the tree is just a dead tree. And a really creepy, beautifully drawn one, as well--did you spend half your extra month on that, Hoshino?? Jeesh!
LOL...I think Mom may just be like Anne of Green Gables...just going around the garden namin' all the plants.

Lavi is Cross...that would be too perfect but, hmm, not if you take Hoshino's oh-so-handy blood type reference into account (because serotyping was so in use in the late 19th century. haha Just like all the other crazy tech they have that's beyond the reach of even the wildest steampunk fantasy.) They can't be the same person if everybody's listed blood type is for real. And--another popular theory that pops up a lot--Lavi can't be Cross's kid, either. But Cross could be Lavi's. Just throwing that out there. Mwa-ha-ha--time travel solves everything!
Personally, I don't think they're related at all. I wonder if either of them are going to show up in this arc? Cross, maybe. It would make sense, but at the same time I kinda hope she focuses more heavily on Mana and Nea right now. I think she may leave Lavi's story until the very end. I think he may be one of the few characters to actually reach a ripe old age...somebody has to pass the story down through the bookman line, right?