Claymore 126 Discussion

[Nixl]

You are correct Saph, I am operating under the assumption that pure/old blood equals stronger, when that is not necessarily true at all (in real life or in the story). That being said, the reason I tend to think that pure DoDs may turn out stronger is that I believe the story follows a line of progression in which the enemies/villains generally get stronger. We started the story with yoma then ABs, which we then met the Abysmal Ones that were endangered by Abysmal Feeders. For the moment, I am not going to talk about Priscilla/Teresa, because they have been bouncing around in terms of powerlevels for a while. Essentially, our established enemies are eventually replaced by a foe that is even stronger. If that is true, which it does not need to be, then I expect the DoDs to follow the trend of making our main characters feel like insects.

Overall, I would believe that the DoDs are generally stronger, but with exceptions such as Priscilla, Teresa, Claire, and perhaps any claymore that exists in a partially awakened state. It remains to be seen and I am kind of excited for it right now.

As for Rubel, I am not sure what his angle was with Priscilla. I thought maybe she was a wild card like Claire that he threw into the mix.

edit: For the moment, I feel that whatever the organization is doing to create hybrids that it is imperfect compared to the DoDs. That is pure speculation on my part, but it just seems that the DoDs have had far more time to experiment than the organizaion.

So many questions, so few concrete answers

[haegar]

As for Rubel, I am not sure what his angle was with Priscilla. I thought maybe she was a wild card like Claire that he threw into the mix.

I don't think he had much options. Once she was awakened she was out of his reach, he couldn't possibly find a way to destroy her anymore, all that was left to him to do was try and burry any record of her survival.

edit: on what SaphG1 posted on genetics and hybrids having the potential to surpass the original:

the fact that Prissy's (hybrid) arm could power up the #1s and stop Raki's infection would corobate that theory if you see her as the most highly advanced hybrid...

[Nixl]

I don't think he had much options. Once she was awakened she was out of his reach, he couldn't possibly find a way to destroy her anymore, all that was left to him to do was try and burry any record of her survival.

But why would Rubel destroy her though? She was a potential threat to the organization. Wouldn't it be best to keep that as a factor in the organizations destruction? I thought Rubel wanted the creations of the organization to destroy it.

It definitely came back to bite him in the ass due to the arm implanted in Raki, but I did not feel that he saw Priscilla any differently than AOs, merely pawns in a much greater game. Priscilla was powerful, but Claire's half awakening was potentially far more dangerous than any AB, because it was the entire point of the experiment to begin with.

edit: It would be interesting if Rubel told Miria the purpose of the organization as a reaction towards her half awakening to get rid of her. However, I would assume that would require that Rubel and perhaps even the DoDs possessed knowledge of half awakening to begin with. Otherwise, how would he be able to know what to watch for to begin with.

So many more questions lol.

[haegar]

I would think that out of Rubel's perspective her potential as a threat to his group should she fall into Dae's hands would far outweigh her usefulness as a weapon?

edit: wait with the reply a moment I'm not done yet, sry XD

going with SaphG1's reasoning here, both half-awakend hybrids and highly powered warriors such as Teresa or Prissy are "succesfull experiment steps" for the ORG. I think we readers might be slightly biased in favor of the ghost's and half awakening - well, judging only by my own subjective feelings here: I always expected half-awakends, or at least clare among them, to eventually surpass Prissy. Due to that, I might likewise tend to see the half-awakening as the greater progress for the ORG even though they don't know about it themselves. But by and large Prissy is as much a success as half-awakening, Dae jizzing his pants about Prissy's arm is testament to that XD

And I think it doesn't hurt to take into acount the question which developments Rubel was "capable" to influence and which not - due to the half-awakends still being ranked warriors at the time he could still put his spin on things with them - with Prissy he could not as she was absent from the ranks and on a powerlevel he couldn't possibly contend with. He did try to kill the ghosts via six-arm - I say had he had the chance he would have done the same to Prissy at the time should he have realized her potential. He should have known she was #1 grade, and a good one at that, but it is doubtful he could gauge her true potential beforehand, by all we know Teresa was the first to recognize the true extent of Prissy's powers.

man I gotta say, yesterday I was on the verge of desperation, but by today I have to say I haven't enjoyed speculating about a chapter this much in ages

[SaphG1]

@ Nixl

That is only if we follow the standard shounen concept which i think Yagi has broken several times already. Past Claymores have been shown to be more powerful then future ones. Priscella has yet to be surpassed in sheer power even by the new enemies that appeared. Heck I think Riful face rolling Audrey and Rachael who kept saying "This is the power of progress" was a giant satire middle finger to that idea.

I think that if the dragon-kin tribe does become enemies they won't be dangerous solely because they completely overpower everything, it wouldn't make sense in a manga like Claymore, though it certainly would fit perfectly into trash manga like code breaker (picking on codebreaker for awhile now^^). They'll be harder opponents for other reasons like, their numbers, there stable battle power and their different tactic's and fighting methods. If they are stable in power that makes them more dangerous in fact, because there won't be any 'weak' ones, you either find a way to surpass them all or you surpass none of them. I would hope a fight between Claymores and DoD"s will be much more like a war where both sides can be hurt and killed rather then a one sided "I'm immune to everything you do because my power level is 1000 points higher". We've gotten enough of that over the years.

[Shiek927]

But why would Rubel destroy her though? She was a potential threat to the organization. Wouldn't it be best to keep that as a factor in the organizations destruction? I thought Rubel wanted the creations of the organization to destroy it.

It definitely came back to bite him in the ass due to the arm implanted in Raki, but I did not feel that he saw Priscilla any differently than AOs, merely pawns in a much greater game. Priscilla was powerful, but Claire's half awakening was potentially far more dangerous than any AB, because it was the entire point of the experiment to begin with.

edit: It would be interesting if Rubel told Miria the purpose of the organization as a reaction towards her half awakening to get rid of her. However, I would assume that would require that Rubel and perhaps even the DoDs possessed knowledge of half awakening to begin with. Otherwise, how would he be able to know what to watch for to begin with.

So many more questions lol.

I can definitely agree with that -- Rubel has always had his eyes squarely on Claire, whilst Dae seems fixated on Priscilla....it's an interesting duality when you think about it - probably was intentional.

Lots of questions indeed, but that's the fun of it...biggest debate(s) I've seen on this website thus far.

Awesome post Saph, alot of stuff that made sense, especially the bit that Haeger quoted - Rubel indeed, could become his very own threat, considering how much information he is aware of...he could very well create a faction all his own.

That is only if we follow the standard shounen concept which i think Yagi has broken several times already. Past Claymores have been shown to be more powerful then future ones. Priscella has yet to be surpassed in sheer power even by the new enemies that appeared. Heck I think Riful face rolling Audrey and Rachael who kept saying "This is the power of progress" was a giant satire middle finger to that idea.

Broken, yet arguably coming back more and more...

The conventional ideas of progress is ones that many people could easily agree with....the Abyssals losing their feeling of omnipotence (and Priscilla isn't far off)....things are not as clear-cut as they used to be.

While I don't agree too much with the idea of the "super super" like Nixl said (), where the DoDs are vastly stronger then even Prissy...I can completely agree if somebody said that the dynamics of power-leveling have become more conventional and now anybody can become stronger if they'd just believe in themselves.

Some people may say that's natural and part of the progress of the story, for good or for bad -- it's up to you I guess to take it a certain way

[Nixl]

@ Nixl

That is only if we follow the standard shounen concept which i think Yagi has broken several times already. Past Claymores have been shown to be more powerful then future ones. Priscella has yet to be surpassed in sheer power even by the new enemies that appeared. Heck I think Riful face rolling Audrey and Rachael who kept saying "This is the power of progress" was a giant satire middle finger to that idea.

I think that if the dragon-kin tribe does become enemies they won't be dangerous solely because they completely overpower everything, it wouldn't make sense in a manga like Claymore, though it certainly would fit perfectly into trash manga like code breaker (picking on codebreaker for awhile now^^). They'll be harder opponents for other reasons like, their numbers, there stable battle power and their different tactic's and fighting methods. If they are stable in power that makes them more dangerous in fact, because there won't be any 'weak' ones, you either find a way to surpass them all or you surpass none of them. I would hope a fight between Claymores ans DoD"s will be much more like a war where both sides can be hurt and killed rather then a one sided "I'm immune to everything you do because my power level is 1000 points higher". We've gotten enough of that over the years.

When I was thinking the progression, I mainly applying it to villains/antagonists. Protagonists can be be all over the map, but center stage villains thus far have always been replaced by something even greater (yoma-->old yoma--> ABs--->Abysmal Ones---Feeders---> Destroyer--> Priscilla). That is an imperfect depiction, but generally that is what I have observed in claymore thus far for the "villains." Again, it is an imperfect definition, especially when you throw Ophelia and the Organization into the mix, but certain threats seem to follow a linear progression of power. I can only assume that DoDs will be the top of the food chain.

Also, I agree with you, I would want the fight to be less one sided and more of an even fight. However, at least for the introduction of the DoDs, I am betting Yagi is probably going to make them powerful and dangerous to a ridiculous extent and then retreat back to show them in a near equal footing with the protagonists. That is what I am expecting for the moment.

I would think that out of Rubel's perspective her potential as a threat to his group should she fall into Dae's hands would far outweigh her usefulness as a weapon?

edit: wait with the reply a moment I'm not done yet, sry XD

going with SaphG1's reasoning here, both half-awakend hybrids and highly powered warriors such as Teresa or Prissy are "succesfull experiment steps" for the ORG. I think we readers might be slightly biased in favor of the ghost's and half awakening - well, judging only by my own subjective feelings here: I always expected half-awakends, or at least clare among them, to eventually surpass Prissy. Due to that, I might likewise tend to see the half-awakening as the greater progress for the ORG even though they don't know about it themselves. But by and large Prissy is as much a success as half-awakening, Dae jizzing his pants about Prissy's arm is testament to that XD

And I think it doesn't hurt to take into acount the question which developments Rubel was "capable" to influence and which not - due to the half-awakends still being ranked warriors at the time he could still put his spin on things with them - with Prissy he could not as she was absent from the ranks and on a powerlevel he couldn't possibly contend with. He did try to kill the ghosts via six-arm - I say had he had the chance he would have done the same to Prissy at the time should he have realized her potential. He should have known she was #1 grade, and a good one at that, but it is doubtful he could gauge her true potential beforehand, by all we know Teresa was the first to recognize the true extent of Prissy's powers.

man I gotta say, yesterday I was on the verge of desperation, but by today I have to say I haven't enjoyed speculating about a chapter this much in ages

My issue with the idea of Rubel wanting to prevent the organization from using her flesh is that why would he let the organization do the same thing with Teresa and Claire? One could argue that in that situation Rubel had more control over that situation that any other. In that moment, Rubel did more than influence, he had control over what to tell the organization about the fight or even Claire's wishes. Teresa was extremely powerful, yet Rubel seemed indifferent to that aspect compared to watching Claire go after revenge. Essentially, why worry about Priscilla's flesh and not Teresa's? They were both trouble.

Furthermore, I remember it being declared that implanting the flesh of a powerful warrior into another was considered a failure(MiB comments on Claire after she went missing). Therefore, why would he have to worry about the Mibs doing the same with Priscilla's flesh?

Rubel could not have known that Dae was going to go all Macgyver with the arm and a few dead #1s.

[Shiek927]

Also, I agree with you, I would want the fight to be less one sided and more of an even fight. However, at least for the introduction of the DoDs, I am betting Yagi is probably going to make them powerful and dangerous to a ridiculous extent and then retreat back to show them in a near equal footing with the protagonists. That is what I am expecting for the moment.

Yeah, I can see that happening....it's the same with the Abyssals, or pretty much any big enemy we've seen -once the initial awe wears off, they are slowly knocked off their lofty position little by little until it's realized that their is nothing all that special about them, and they are no where near as godly as they first came off as.

In that sense, it's important to remember that it's the character that is important and not the power-level, unlike other series where it's the other way around.

[haegar]

just a brief question, why are we already so set on the DODs fighting the remaining Claymores? Yes, granted, Rubel made it no secret that he would rather have any succesfull experiment dead and out of the way, the destruction of the island lab nonwithstanding - but it would make for such an interesting plot if the Ghost's were to try to get along with them somehow?!?


edit: great positive thing just occured to me:

Claymore manga has concluded !

meaning:

IF THERE EVER WAS ONE, NOW'S THE TIME FOR ANIME v2 !!!!

[Nixl]

just a brief question, why are we already so set on the DODs fighting the remaining Claymores? Yes, granted, Rubel made it no secret that he would rather have any succesfull experiment dead and out of the way, the destruction of the island lab nonwithstanding - but it would make for such an interesting plot if the Ghost's were to try to get along with them somehow?!?

I thought about that, but ultimately I think they would side with the org's nations.

My logic is that if Yagi intends to make the DoDs a threat unlike any ever seen in the manga to date and a force that Rubel would call master, I speculate that the DoDs will annihilate anything that gets in their way if not just annihilate things for the hell of it. For their introduction, I do think Yagi will make the DoDs so terrible that it makes the organization look partially justified. Granted, like many antagonists in Claymore, I think the threat will be watered down or humanized, but for that beginning they will be assholes.

A lot of things can happen if Yagi pushes forward with it.

I also wonder what Raki's role will be in it. Yagi used Raki as a convenient method to introduce the concept of Yoma, Claymores, and awakening. He also used Raki has a means for the readers to keep tabs on Priscilla. I am wondering if he will also be Yagi's means in some way to explain the DoDs.

[Shiek927]

I'm not, not one bit -- this is all interesting talk; certainly the biggest talk on the DoDs in ages....but I'm still holding out on the manga progressing without any change to the title, or their being any new change...

Will we get Chapter 127 next month? Or will it be Chapter 1 of a totally different manga? Will the story merely be renamed, or is their a totally new story being created from scratch, that continues the plot?

Hard to say, but I'm hoping for the most conservative approach - no new manga, no new title, not even the Dragons...I'm hoping that plot-element remains ominously in the background as it has till now...only when Claymore is truly over, would I be totally satisfied and not mind if the Ghosts go to the Island or whatever or get involved in new stuff....because by that point, it will feel and already be, like a totally new story anyway.

[haegar]

If we are talking about a sequel I rather see it taking place on the mainland than on the island. It would make sense to go with a change of scenery as well. It might be in the DOD faction's favor if it became never even known they were involved in the island lab's failure via Rubel. If they show up there, the mainland ORG faction would wonder how come they knew in the first place. Then there is the question if they even can afford to send troops over, they might be unable to split their forces ...

As reasons for the ghosts venturing to the mainland I see either the desire to learn about how to get Clare out of the blob if that ain't possible to them, or the mentioned desire to learn more about their origins - of course once on the mainland I wouldn't dare to venture a guess as to how they hook up, though I would favor a sitting between two chairs: to the org, they are enemies as they rebelled, and the ghosts wouldnt want to side with the org due to the methods they used on them on the island. on the other hand, while the ghosts might have reasons and motivation to get along with the DODs, the DODs likely would see them as a threat simply for what they are - it would be left to see if that is a gap that could be bridged ...

[SaphG1]

When I was thinking the progression, I mainly applying it to villains/antagonists. Protagonists can be be all over the map, but center stage villains thus far have always been replaced by something even greater (yoma-->old yoma--> ABs--->Abysmal Ones---Feeders---> Destroyer--> Priscilla). That is an imperfect depiction, but generally that is what I have observed in claymore thus far for the "villains." Again, it is an imperfect definition, especially when you throw Ophelia and the Organization into the mix, but certain threats seem to follow a linear progression of power. I can only assume that DoDs will be the top of the food chain.

Actually I'm not sure if the DoD's are going to be an in mass enemy, at least not in the way of a real war. I could see Rubel coming back with a group of his sides own researcher's and they're own take on 'warriors' in order to capture and collect The remnants of the organizations experiments. They might have a few of the full grown dragon-kin with them but i think it will come down to a warrior on warrior battle again, with the new enemies showing different degree's of strength and power. Perhaps they'll have some mysterious advantage that cannot be readily explained at the start but will later be understood as part of their shared biology. I definitely don't think it will be because they are right out more powerful.

I can't imagine any other reason for DoD's to become involved with Claymores. Their would be no point in fighting a war on two fronts at the same time by attacking a non aggressive enemy. Though them coming to island would show that the Organizations work does in fact surpass their own in the realms of biology, its very rare that anyone would have interest in inferior or dated research.

Again to example, if there average warriors lets say had the strength of a no.5 and there strongest only had power equal to a no.2 they might seem weaker but thier average strength would be waaaay beyond the average claymore strength without breaking the mold.

I would think that out of Rubel's perspective her potential as a threat to his group should she fall into Dae's hands would far outweigh her usefulness as a weapon?

Dae as far as i'm concerned is the big fish at the moment...we could only imagine what would have happened if he'd gotten ahold of Priscella

MiB agent: I've come to get a report on your progress with Priscella.
Dae: Oh that, yea done with that, I'm making Xenomorphs now, alien's was the sh%t.
Mib agent: What..?
Dae: Nevermind, anyway I've got Priscella handled.
Mib agent: How is that even possible? It's only been a week.
Dae: Strawberry Mentos, turns out that b*tch is mental for them.
Mib agent: You're...joking right?
Dae: ha ha ha ha...no...
Mib agent: okay...I'll go report...
Dae: Good, Now get out of my lab. After i'm done breaking the fourth wall I'm going to get to work on the IPad4, cause I'm Dae Bi*ch.

/fantasy

[Shiek927]

A lot of things can happen if Yagi pushes forward with it.

And yet, doesn't he already have enough on his plate?

I mean, for goodness sake....the whole Claire/Priscilla dynamic hasn't even been resolved yet, and I'd like to see that done yet before I see any Dragons...I'd like to see everything resolved, or at least, as much as possible...

I mean really -- I didn't like how I felt the story was accelerating during all of the fights in the recent past (Riful/Alicia/Eaters, Raciella, HellCats, Priscilla, AB Beth, Infected Dauf...)...it felt like too much was going on at once, and I missed the long-drawn out nature of the story...it felt like things nicely slowed down and I was happy to see the Miria arc focus was strong and didn't show a million things happening at once.

I feel though that it's gonna accelerate again if the DoDs are now brought to the forefront...their are just too many little things that need clearing up before more big things are introduced - whether big like, what on earth is this so-called Yoma Lab that the Ghosts went through, or something minor as the Ghosts all promising Miria a knuckle-sandwich.

That's my worry right now....Yagi isn't focusing on the big-picture anymore - or rather, maybe he is, too much...he's not focusing on the details anymore - he just wants to ship the Ghosts off somewhere, create these grand epic battles, and these big dramas....instead of just focusing on character development, interaction, and the little things that I honestly enjoy more.

As nice as the artwork was during all those recent battles, It made me feel like I was reading another typical action manga and I didn't like that...it felt like a line was crossed - I mean, rather then focus on Raki's talk with the Ghosts at long last...Ermita gets his head cut off, and we see more dragon-stuff.

You may argue that their is a sense of priorities...but it still feels iffy - Raki was tossed to side, and instead of we Miria holding a head up....

I don't know -- maybe I'm talking dumb, but I feel the focus has changed and I'm not too crazy about it.

[haegar]

Well and I feel it's just about to change back to what used to be the good old days - if things do sequel, that is