My respond to Goral's:
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We do not know whether "I believe I would be able to deal about 50% damage to her [Riful] and then die" means she would do this as an AB or Claymore. We do not know whether she could fight in an awakened state at that time. In fact it's doubtful because:
a) Beth wasn't present here so it's implied she would be fighting Riful in her human form.
b) MiB said later something like "Thank God we've completed Alicia in time".
This order is not random. If #1 is true than #2 means that only just before 11 ABs attacked Alicia could fight as an Awakened Being and all the training before was to get access to 100% of her power. Unless you have a better interpretation.
Ok I get what you trying to say but many things says the opposite:
1- Beth wasn't important at that time to be present to fight her (she could've been there but her appearance would ruin her appearance after the War of the North as twins thing) because Alicia was just estimating Riful's powers not to fight her with the high probability of losing her which would be devastating to the Organization.
2- When they said that she was completed they meant it IMO that she finished the 30% improvement so the blades were doubled! Not that she couldn't awaken and go back and if so how would they know about the blades??
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We do not know what does "we will be raising your power and speed step by step from now on" mean. For some reason MiB didn't say "you will awaken and de-awaken a couple of times" or anything like that. It might be for example that she was gradually learning how to fight in a youki released state, closer and closer to the awakening. Or maybe MiB were awakening her step by step (firstly only one finger, one hand, all limbs, etc.) so she could steadily control more of her awakened body. Someone might say then: "but they didn't know about partial awakening". We don't know that, we don't know which parts of Rubel's information were true, maybe organization knows about it. Or maybe they wouldn't think that what Alicia managed to do with Beth's help Claymores could do by themselves. Also it might have sth to do with soul link, maybe better compatibility (soul resonance) => increased strain on the body + increased power. Not to mention that if Alicia was increasing her speed and strength as a Claymore MiB could suspect it was possible for normal Claymores too.
I suppose here you just mentioned what I want to say "they don't know about Partial Awakening" because Rubel's personality is like this (I know this because I use this to get out of troubles): He never lies but never tells the whole truth! So whatever he said is actually true 100% but not the whole truth there is more ,but nothing of that affects what he said about that part or anything he said before and if you want a proof to that part of his personality is what he said to Miria which was a small part of the truth but still true! So here I suppose what they meant is increasing her powers as a Claymore (in her human form).
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"Raising power and speed by 30% step by step" could mean that "we will increase speed first, then strength". Also, legs are built from many muscles, tendons, etc. so first they would increase this and later that. Besides, awakening legs adds to speed AND overall power. We don't know if they were referring to awakened Alicia or not, if they were referring to Alicia in her Claymore form... Step by step could mean they would gradually let her use more and more of her awakened powers (either by partially awakening or some other way). And soul-link could have sth to do with it. Clare was exhausted after awakening only her left arm, not only mentally but also physically. Going by that line of thought the strain on Alicia's body if she used more of her youma powers would be far greater than that as long as she would not be completely awakened. How come full awakening could become more stressful on her body? She would have the same form and the same abilities, there would be no bulging of veins, no sudden growth of fangs and drooling as it is during the process of going over the limit.
The first part is the same as before but here I can add this.. Alicia did have strains and Beth even more. This was mentioned by Rubel when he was chating with Galatea about them so I don't think the strains were the main topic they were talking about here but still this is a strong point as it is important to stabilize her.
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Another problem arises if what you're saying would turn out to be true. It would mean that Alicia suddenly became strong enough to defeat Riful even though a while earlier she could do to her 50% of damage at best. It would mean that she was relatively weak at the start, not even Rafaela's level and after the training she would surpass underestimated, MiB version of Teresa which IMO is doubtful. Alicia was the strongest warrior in the annals according to MiB. It wouldn't make sense for them to say that her awakened form was the strongest since Riful, Isley and Luciella would be of about her strength. And it would be obvious that comparing AB to a Claymore would be pointless. So it means that even at the time Alicia compared her power to Riful's Alicia had the best stats any warrior ever had (that they knew of). And how do I know that Alicia must have been of at least Rafaela's level? It was stated by Rubel 2 times that Rafaela was equally strong to Claymore Luciella and Rafaela didn't deny it (it's also consistent with Alicia and Beth). We also know she was all A warrior (thanks to databooks). And Luciella was about as strong as Isley. So to be of Abyssals level Alicia would have at least as good stats as Rafaela, otherwise she would surely lose to someone even slightly stronger, just like Luciella lost to Isley. All abyssals were of comparable strength, it was a deadlock. And since Luciella was of about the same strength as Riful than as Claymores they must have had comparable stats.
Well your logic isn't far away from the truth I believe she simply got N1 because of her importance doesn't mean she was N1 she was the strongest at that time maybe they included her AB form in the ranking that would definitely make her the strongest if you think about it in this way so when she got stronger as a Claymore she got stronger as an AB and this doesn't contrast with anything in the manga! The AOs ranking is definitely as you mentioned Isley apparently had the upper hand against Luciella but I believe Riful is stronger because Isley didn't attack her even though he had a better army so for him to do nothing means that he isn't stronger than her and this I believe ends all the talk about there powers (but like it will ever end).
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If Alicia could improve her speed and power by 30% then it's obvious there would be some that could improve even more. So where would be the limit here? That creates a chance for Yuma to become an abyssal since there's no clear maximum. That's one of the reasons I prefer the "it doesn't matter when you awaken" theory.
This indicates that how hard it is to improve as a claymore so the efforts that they have to make to just increase their powers by 30%.. But this improvement could be nothing if you put it this way:
From the time of when he said that they will improve her powers to the time when they said she was completed is a very short period and in that they managed to increase her powers by 30% which was enough to kill 11 ABs! So how much she improved in those 7 years in this theory is true??
But for the maximum part, I disagree with that logic because I see a maximum where everyone reaches (Even as humans because for example muscle indeed don’t increase in number under normal circumstances they become larger as you train them so how much you increase it you will reach one day to the maximum limits of us humans so why would Claymores be different?)
For the 7th point the points before respond to most of it but I like to add this: Galatea when she talked about the rival she didn’t just mention Alicia she added Beth so this can mean that Alicia+Beth’s yoki = an AO’s Yoki not only just Alicia.. But still both theories got holes especially here.
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Riful has met half-awakened Claymores for the first time so she couldn't have known they would become stronger ABs. She's not a reliable observer unless Yagi made a real blunder and gave her knowledge she couldn't have. In order to make a statement like that Riful would have to awaken someone, measure it's power, de-awaken it, train it and then measure it's powers again and compare the two which we know she didn't do. There still is no proof that it matters when you awaken and that you can become a stronger awakened, the only information we have is that you can become a stronger Claymore but that's precisely because of having more access to youma powers, not that it suddenly multiplies or increases in other way. But I wouldn't call Riful a liar or a fool just because she jumped to a conclusion like that. There might have been signs that suggested her that but there are also signs suggesting something different. That's why a debate like this might continue .
Well.. After a while of thinking about this we simply forgot our lack of knowledge in this subject compared to someone who has Yoki just like Riful and Clare and all of the warriors! They have it so they can relate to it in ways we would never understand specially that thing she said it wasn't just for Clare or Jean it was to all 3 of them; Galatea included. Now since she didn't go through what Clare and Jean have been through indicates this can be applied to all Claymores. So All Claymores can become stronger ABs if they train more as Claymore! Sometimes there are things meant to be felt inside and from inside not experimented and experienced and I believe this is one of them unless Yagi provide us with the proof as if the Twins get stronger (with time) and awaken again (They won't change in shape much but they will get stronger if the theory is true). Riful has knowledge we simply don't have because she has the key to the source of Yoki which is indeed in herself and in every Yoki-using being plus she is a genius actually because she gets everything from almost nothing so this wouldn't be any different.
If I made a typo please forgive me because I wrote this while I was watching my favorite show.. so you know..But I will respond to the rest soon so give me a chance to respond to the rest before you respond to this.
---------- Post added April 28, 2012 at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was April 27, 2012 at 11:43 PM ----------
Ok first for Gernot's translation: Surely I have got nothing to say about it but still it doesn't mean by training it doesn't increase the Yoki; it simply tells us that HA increases overall powers (just like Miria said in chapter 31 to Deneve after HA & Riful said about Clare). Still the idea of training for it to increase yoki is not denied by this and actually tells us what are the principles of HA not Yoki and the probability to increase it.
And for the example, I know Clare's yoki is low but it doesn't mean that her Yoki hasn't increased after 7 years plus Deneve and Helen wouldn't simply congratz each other for the Yoki increase because it would be stupid they simply could've guessed that it will increase but a major increase would be something they will notify us about but a normal increase they are expecting.
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As for Miria, she could do her mirage without (visibly) releasing more than 10% of her youki earlier[/Url] but only after the time-skip she learned to do it by not releasing it at all (releasing not using). But it was possible thanks to getting more access to her powers and being more compatible with youma material plus some basic strength increase not because her youki has increased. At least we can't tell it yet. This also explains why Claymores can lift a claymore as easily as earlier in a cloaked mode. They are using youki but internally and that's a huge difference. Training and HAs help Claymores to have access to it and use it internally and the master of it is Clare. She must have humongous youki inside her but she needs even more time than others to access it because of being 1/4th youma.
As for WC, Clare was using Irene's arm for that plus she's special (she HA the most times and is a prodigy as a successor of Teresa's power) so there is no problem here.
This I believe is the key to understand how Yoki functions in claymores and other Yoki-using creatures because understanding how it function is an important step to understand Yoki as a source of power and life(in the case of ZAOs) but still none of that tells us that Yoki can't be increased it simply tells us warriors not only have to increase Yoki to get stronger they can get better compatibility and better usage to get the same result if not better!
As for Clare, she is a special case being 1/4 and having Tersa inside are things that really makes her an unreliable source of knowledge but still she is a Claymore which in that matter is how we should treat her not as Teresa or another being and by understanding all theses cases she has but yet she still has a little Yoki but no matter who faced her none has lived to see her improvement except for Ophelia which she complimented her improvements but only mentioned speed and strength because at that time she didn't release any Yoki even when she used the Quick Sword she actually released all her yoki in her hand so to be able to sense that would require a good sensory warrior and Ophelia isn't that good (because she didn't get that Clare lived when she cut her from her Yoki, she got it because of Clare's misjudgement). But truly you make me remember Freezing a manga in which only some humans are capable of becoming the warriors that can stop and kill the Novas (just like yomas in Claymore) but the thing is each one of them have a limited amount of how much they can take in and how much compatibility to Stigmas. This means the one with more stigmas they have the stronger they are but sometimes there are some who have less but better compatibility which resulted in being stronger than those and this would be your logic in other words but still that doesn't mean Yoki/Stigmas can't be increased.
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Re: Claymore 126 Spoiler Thread
Re: Claymore 126 Spoiler Thread
