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Thread: Techniques Discussion

  1. #106
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Techniques Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    I was thinking about this the other day. Niou's Ilussion really lets him synchro with anyone? I mean, yeah, he can become a Mutsu (to synchro with another Mutsu), Kikumaru (to synchro with Oishi), and probably any other player in a synchro pair... but what about non synchro pairs?

    In his match with Atobe, that synchro probably only worked cause Atobe is an arrogant jerk... would that work with Kaidoh for example? Maybe we overestimated his doubles skills...
    In the match with Atobe, he pass the requirement of "being in great peril" because the pair were losing when the syncho trigger off. It is unknown if he can pull it off always or not.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  2. #107
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    Re: Techniques Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    I was thinking about this the other day. Niou's Ilussion really lets him synchro with anyone? I mean, yeah, he can become a Mutsu (to synchro with another Mutsu), Kikumaru (to synchro with Oishi), and probably any other player in a synchro pair... but what about non synchro pairs?

    In his match with Atobe, that synchro probably only worked cause Atobe is an arrogant jerk... would that work with Kaidoh for example? Maybe we overestimated his doubles skills...
    Hmmm...
    I think Niou can Synchro with anybody at the moment.
    I think it only happened at the moment Ochi and Mouri were going to finish off Atobe/Niou because for Niou to grow and strengthen his Illusion ability he needs to be on the brink of getting crushed.
    Like almost every MSer.
    Nearly all MSers on the brink of getting completely shat on tend to grow.
    Examples of players who were getting shat on and then came back as beasts:
    Echizen Ryoma VS Yukimura Seiichi Momoshiro/Kenya VS Hara/Taira
    Sanada Genichiro VS Yukimura Seiichi
    Atobe Keigo VS Irie Kanata
    Kaidoh/Inui VS Kirihara/Yanagi
    Kirihara VS Krauser
    Fuji. S VS Shiraishi
    Fuji. S VS Niou

    I could go on.
    Well that is my theory at least.
    I think Niou is indeed the best Doubles player in the series and can perform Synchro with anybody.

  3. #108
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    Re: Techniques Discussion

    I'd think Niou can synchronize with anyone by just illusioning as that guy because the basis of synchro is that both guys know each other like the back of your hand. Well by definition you also know yourself like the back of your hand. The only reason he wouldn't synchronize is if he is significantly weaker/stronger than his partner, in this case the synchro wouldn't be meaningful. Let's say Tezuka at nationals team up with Niou and they're playing 2 Sanadas. The real Tezuka could come up with a plan like he'll use Phantom to draw out a Rin, then Niou smashes the ball, and then they swap roles (to reduce damage from Phantom), and when they have 4 games they each do 4 ZSS on their serve to win. However at this point Niou will point out he can't use ZSS at this point and probably can't sustain Phantom nearly as long as the real Tezuka, so this strategy wouldn't work. Now Tezuka can lower his level to match that of Niou, but if you're fighting against 2 Sanadas then 2XNiou level characters obviously is just going to get steamrolled so not much point to do that either.

    Niou didn't synchronize with Atobe early on, and I'm guessing it's because it takes time for him to figure out how to illusion all of Atobe's abilities correctly. He didn't start out as an illusion against Fuji either, and he told Sanada to be quiet because he's gathering info, so there's presumably some gathering intel phase before he can perfect his illusions. Of course he can illusion as a weak version of Atobe and synchro, but that wouldn't be any good against their competition.

  4. #109
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    Re: Techniques Discussion

    How do people think syncho interact with people who are bad at doubles, like Echizen?

    And how does it intereact with aura, such as PoP?
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  5. #110
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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 118 and 119 Discussion/Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Dunno Kaoz, Saiki has only been countered with Closed Eyes, right? It should still be pretty awesome (for, at least, the 11/20 HSers). The regular Muga or Hyaku Ren would do wonders against Tohno or Date I guess.
    I think Saiki can be countered when you have high enough mental actually. Like there's definitely some way to break it given that both Tachibana and Tezuka have done so even if we don't know what it is exactly. As for Hyakuren, I think it also depends a bit on your actual power stat (although I don't have much in terms of evidence for this); since Niou only has a base power of 2, I don't think he'd be able to use it effectively against Date for example.
    Last edited by Kaoz; February 15, 2014 at 01:11 AM.

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  7. #111
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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 118 and 119 Discussion/Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    I think Saiki can be countered when you have high enough mental actually. Like there's definitely some way to break it given that both Tachibana and Tezuka have done so even if we don't know what it is exactly.
    Agreed.
    I think it can be understood that Saiki can be broken if the opponents stats are able to exceed your own?
    Example, we can assume Tachibana had just 1 base stat point higher than Chitose did back at Nationals since it is very reasonable they improved at the same rate at the camp.
    Also, if the opponent has a Mental stat exceeding 5, its likely that the move isn't so effective? This is just a theory though.

    @Hardy, we also saw Saiki broken by Sanada's In btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    As for Hyakuren, I think it also depends a bit on your actual power stat (although I don't have much in terms of evidence for this); since Niou only has a base power of 2, I don't think he'd be able to use it effectively against Date for example.
    This is a good point. Sanada's power exceeds Tezuka's, with counter moves like Fuu/Ka/Rin/Rai/Zan which can all give boosts independent to stats.

    However Hyakku Ren for Niou worked on Fuji cause Fuji isn't a particularly physically strong player. Same reason as to why Tezuka could do it to Kite and Yamato.
    It works on opponents who have a lower power than them, or don't have a Special move that allows them to compete with Hyakku Ren.
    But I believe as long as the opponent as a Tech stat above 5 it seems that Hyakku Ren loses its relevance.

    Since with Tech above 5, a player should be able to simply hit back softer well placed shots so that Hyakku Ren's effect doesn't mean much.
    Hence why Niou didn't bother to bring out Hyakku Ren against Ochi/Mouri and why Ryoma needed to bring out Saiki against Yukimura.

    Long story short, Hyakku Ren being the first door, is definitely lower than the 2nd door then the same with Saiki Kanpatsu and Teni Muhou.
    Last edited by Kaoz; February 15, 2014 at 01:14 AM.

  8. #112
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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 118 and 119 Discussion/Predictions

    I never understood the logic in countering Hyakuren. I'm talking about hitting weak shots on porpuse.

    Ok, so, you HAVE to hit slow balls, not even with a spin, and the opponent can still hit the ball in the same way he did before getting into Hyakuren. Sure, you're avoiding the ¨powerful mirror¨ effect, but how can you win a point like that? You're not really countering it, you're just avoiding it.

    @Airgrimes, it's pretty clear that I brain farted when I said that Saiki had only 1 counter, lol.

  9. #113
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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 118 and 119 Discussion/Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    @Airgrimes, it's pretty clear that I brain farted when I said that Saiki had only 1 counter, lol.
    Lol, Indeed I just added that for the sake of those reading the discussion.
    You'll notice from the view count that many who don't have accounts read the Chptr Discussions thread on MH forums.
    I was reading the Chptr Discussion many months before I made an MH account for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Ok, so, you HAVE to hit slow balls, not even with a spin, and the opponent can still hit the ball in the same way he did before getting into Hyakuren. Sure, you're avoiding the ¨powerful mirror¨ effect, but how can you win a point like that? You're not really countering it, you're just avoiding it.
    It seems that Yukimura hit simply well placed shots that Ryoma couldn't get to.
    I think its not just soft shots but the fact that Hyakku Ren can drain stamina but if the opponent hits a shot far away from you, you can't use Hyakku Ren in the same way.
    This is proved by Tezuka VS Yamato.
    Tezuka had TPhantom & Hyakku Ren out at the same time but the score was 5-4.
    So it means Hyakku Ren doesn't work if the opponent hits a well placed shot away from you, and even if you get a touch it may not be enough of a touch to hit a Doubled Return properly.

    I'm not saying this is concrete, but this is what the series has depicted thus far imho

  10. #114
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    Re: Techniques Discussion

    This thread is dead but I guess this discussion goes here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    It seems that Yukimura hit simply well placed shots that Ryoma couldn't get to.
    I think its not just soft shots but the fact that Hyakku Ren can drain stamina but if the opponent hits a shot far away from you, you can't use Hyakku Ren in the same way.
    This is proved by Tezuka VS Yamato.
    Tezuka had TPhantom & Hyakku Ren out at the same time but the score was 5-4.
    So it means Hyakku Ren doesn't work if the opponent hits a well placed shot away from you, and even if you get a touch it may not be enough of a touch to hit a Doubled Return properly.

    I'm not saying this is concrete, but this is what the series has depicted thus far imho
    Nono, I think that's exactly the definition the series gave, well placed weak shots counter Hyakuren, I just never saw the logic behind it. It should be almost impossible to win a point, but your opponent has the same chances he had before going into Hyakuren. That prolly forces longer points (unless the weak shots are so bad that your opponent has literally free shots) and yeah, it might become a stamina battle. But wasn't Tezuka able to move his aura in order to counter that?

  11. #115
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    Re: Techniques Discussion

    Tezuka didn't use Hyakuren and Phantom at the same time against Yamato. And he never moved his Hyakuren from his left arm either. He got the lead without any special moves, then when Yamato used GUYU, Tezuka started using Phantom to counter that. At 4-4 Tezuka stopped using Phantom, saw through the illusion and started using Hyakuren.

    EDIT: Moved the other posts of this discussion over here.

    ---------- Post added at 07:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    So it means Hyakku Ren doesn't work if the opponent hits a well placed shot away from you, and even if you get a touch it may not be enough of a touch to hit a Doubled Return properly.
    This is definitely true and can be seen in Ryoma vs Yukimura as well. Ryoma is still using Hyakuren after starting to lose his senses, but it seems like the doubled return has vanished completely at that point.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...s/c375/11.html

    ---------- Post added February 18, 2014 at 08:03 AM ---------- Previous post was February 15, 2014 at 07:21 AM ----------

    Let's talk about GS and Kijin a bit, or more specifically them apparently giving an unmeasurable boost to the user. Why do you think that is?

    For GS, I feel that it's connected to the variable size of the aura. As we've seen in the last chapter, Tokugawa pulled out a much greater aura than what we had seen before. So if it's theoretically possible to pull out an infinite amount of the other dimensional power (which doesn't seem to be dependent on technique or anything?), that would mean the boost someone gets from it cannot be consistently determined.

    As for Kijin, its destructive force seems to depend on the power of the opponent's shot. Like against Kaji, it did some damage, but he didn't bleed as much as Byoudouin did when his GS was returned. And now when Tokugawa's more powerful GS got hit back, it blasted straight through a wall. So if Kijin's power relies on the opponent's power completely, it would again be impossible to consistently assign a boost to it.

    Thoughts, anyone?
    Last edited by Kaoz; February 15, 2014 at 01:16 AM.

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