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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Seriously? Eh... okay. Anyway, it was a finishing blow against a downed opponent, and Raikage had no idea about Kagutsuchi until he was in mid-drop. It's not like he "powered up" for a stronger leg drop or something. Likewise, he was trying to stomp through a Susanoo that was already damaged. Durability feats aside, you don't just say "Oh man, that was strong." You say "Oh, that's strong, but THIS and THIS and THIS is why."Originally Posted by Uchiha_Hunter
In other words, you're not gonna show me Gaara blocking a C3 with an island of sand and claim he'll do it to Sasuke in a battle where there's not already that amount of sand readily available. You're also not gonna show him blocking attacks from two opponents not paying attention to him and claim it was his awesome speed that is the reason they couldn't react to it. Lastly, he caught Edo Tensei kages that were programmed to react to attacks after they're made. In, once again, a damn desert.
React to Raikage? See, this is what I meant. Raikage hopped into the air and dropped down. Gaara snuck his sand in between a ninja who couldn't POSSIBLY avoid it because he had no control over his movements. Why is this supposed to be impressive? It's not like he was reacting to his shunshin, or that he was moving as fast as he was when he was blitzing Taka.Quote:
As for him dodging his sand, you neglect to acknowledge he wasn't even looking at it. No Sharingan perceptive abilities. No shunshin. It simply wasn't fast enough.
No, it definately mattered as Kankuro admits that the fact he had to resort to sand armor (which is a constant chakra drain) meant he simply couldn't deal with the speed. And even if it didn't matter, this is Sasuke, not Lee. He has raiton charged weaponry to make the sand armor a non-issue as long as he turns up the speed to begin with. I only brought up Lee because you claimed Gaara could keep up with Lee when he was unweighted, which was 100% super-wrong. Once again, the sand ISN'T slow. It's just not Sasuke-fast.Quote:
Also, Deidara reacted to Sasuke, sure. He didn't outpace him though, and Sasuke could only attack from one direction. He managed to barely escape once, and the second time he only got away thanks to his bomb blowing him a safe distance away. Here we go again with feats being diminished because they were extremely conditional.
Someone did. Uchiha_Blood or Impossibility, I forget, but they claimed a continuous assault of sand could potentially grind it away. As for chakra drain, if the fight goes to the sky we have to remember it only costs Sasuke a small amount for the hawk, and after that he doesn't have to resort to strong chakra attacks... simply evasion until he gets a chance to cast Genjutsu. Gaara on the other hand has to maintain flight with his chakra, maintain defense with his chakra, maintain offense aswell with his chakra, and potentially expend greater amounts to move faster/bring more sand from the ground far below. Gaara definately has more stamina than Sasuke, but he's not maintaining mountain sized sand constructs or jetting around without it taking a toll after a while. All Sasuke has to worry about is his hawk's endurance.Quote:
No, I know what force the arrows possess (which is definately enough to get through that sand). I was referring to his basic Enton fireballs he used against him in that link. It wasn't Amaterasu, it was him useing the flames floating above him to fire out small Enton bursts at him multiple times. Since he could push his sand back some with an immaterial attack, something that's condenced with shape manipulation (that can punch directly through concrete and mokuton, mind you) can definately plow through that sand. The simple fact that they cast embers onto whatever's pierced simply adds to the lethal nature of them. All Sasuke needs is a sleeve; a pantsleg... his big-ass gourd. A glancing blow can be the difference between life and death for Gaara.Quote:
From a ninja who couldn't attack with raiton charged weaponry or enton. For the second (third?) time, I'm not saying he's gonna use his speed to kick him around like Lee did. I'm saying he's gonna use that speed to plant a raiton charged sword inside of his temporal lobe. You can't possibly think that armor's gonna help just because it kept his head on his shoulders against Lee. Seconldy, no. It was the speed that was a problem, or else he wouldn't have needed the armor. Lee turned up the speed. Gaara tried to stop him with his sand. It failed. So he armored himself so that his lack of speed wouldn't be an issue, since his opponent had no attacks strong enough to do any real damage to him.Quote:
Something that can not be said about Sasuke.
I'm aware, but since he can't do that now, I don't see the point in bringing it up. You know how I feel about Naruto and his part 1 feats, so you know I couldn't care less what Gaara did thanks to Shukaku's aid.Quote:
That's the problem. Sasuke wasn't trying to cut him up nicely, he was trying to put him down. And that couldn't happen thanks to Shukaku. The ability to survive multiple hits from a damn A rank jutsu is most certainly something great. Yes, his stamina's still pretty damn good. But you have to own up to him:Quote:
1: Catching those Kage only because they were Edo Tensei designed to DO NOTHING until attacked, making sneak attacks especially effective.
2: Beating his father in what wasn't even a fight (what'd he make? 3 sand formations? Then he talked. And cried. And right after trying to seal all the Kage away, they busted out and the fight was over. No catching Raikage, no catching Niidaime. They just busted out and commensed raping fodder. I guess Gaara used that time to catch a second wind...)
3: His stamina wasn't exactly fine while fighting Niidaime Mizukage:http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/556 Beginning of the actual fight and he's panting. Yeah.
4: There's no telling how much heavy lifting he did with the meteor since Oonoki was already slowing it down.
You don't believe that by any degree. At all. Hell, you can't. Not with knowledge of Sasuke's repertoire. You simply can't.Quote:
The thing is, everyone expects Gaara to keep sand formations on the field the size of that one tsunami, or the C3 blocking island. Gaara's proven in his most recent fights that it's not that simple. Whether from the chakra drain (he was nearly spent after blocking C3) or the difficulty (throwing a mountain at opponents that can hide with Genjutsu or Bunshin is only setting yourself up to be fooled into getting set up for a sticky situation). The reason it's so easy to accept a win for Sasuke is that he literally needs one opening. One, and the fight's over. Whether it's a paralyzing Genjutsu, a glancing Enton, or a Chidori Eisou that pierces through a sand defense before expanding into dozens of perforating raiton blades (incase he misses the initial stab). Where as hitting Sasuke doesn't result in an auto loss thanks to the attack Gaara has already admitted to being incapable of destroying: Susanoo.Quote:
He's hit with a burst of sand? Susanoo. Being held to the ground? Susanoo, or summoning to go into the sky. Hell, even if he's rushing in to blitz Gaara and he's afraid he's gonna bring sand up too quickly to close the distance for a melee strike, swatting him with a Susanoo hand (made in the blink of an eye mind you) makes sure his attack isn't wasted, and starts up his defense incase Gaara mounts a counter offensive.
He can make more sand. The point regarding him blocking the attacks was that the sand was fast. Regardless of whether they noticed him or not, that doesn't negate how quickly the sand got there. Neither Naruto nor Sasuke saw Kakashi coming when he intercepted their clash on the roof, that doesn't suddenly make him not fast. Gaara didn't expect Gai to pop in and block his sand attack from killing Lee...that doesn't make Gai's speed getting there slow. Kisame didn't know Gai was coming when he was attacking Kakashi, again, Gai's intercepting speed isn't slow because Kisame didn't know it was coming. Aaaand, those Edo Tensei kages caused a lot of trouble, IIRC. You're going to tell me that Gaara's father wasn't going all out? He even told Gaara that he was going to have to show him that he surpassed him.Quote:
Again, it's because he was that far away and got his sand in between those attacks. Did you see the distance between the two of them?Quote:
Are you kidding me? Itachi dodged an attack from Bee from behind, while sparring with Naruto. That doesn't mean that Bee's not fast, we've seen how fast Bee is, and we've seen how good he is in CQC. Also, if Madara wasn't looking at it, meaning he didn't see it, then why did he dodge?Quote:
Lol, so Sasuke gets the drop on Deidara while Deidara's talking to Tobi, and that's not a conditional blitz, but when Deidara reacts to and dodges Sasuke face-to-face, that's conditional? You're better than this, sir.Quote:
Sasuke himself noted Gaara's "absolute defense" If Danzou could use a random Mokuton growth to escape a Susanoo arrow, I'm unable to believe that Gaara, with all we know his sand can do, would be unable to defend against an arrow. Like I said later, if it was a serial attack, then Sasuke would certainly land a decisive blow, but barring that, I don't see it happening. Not to mention that if Sasuke actually does use Enton on Gaara, and Gaara defends with the sand, at that point Gaara is now able to toss Enton at Sasuke until the sand is burned away.Quote:
Then we have completely different estimations of both Sasuke's CQC speed and Gaara's sand's speed/defensive capabilities.Quote:
Nah. Again, if it was the speed, then Gaara wouldn't have told him to "hurry up and come" when he was beginning the Omote Renge. The speed surprised him, but the speed wasn't going to be enough to defeat him. Actually, Gai acknowledges this fact himself when he watches Sasuke fight Gaara. Even when Sasuke damaged Gaara, it was the power of Chidori rather than his Lee-level speed that resulted in actual damage.Quote:
Because you were making this point about speed that was irrelevant.Quote:
Sorta semantics here, but 1. Regenerative ability != durability. Outside of the initial Chidori, I don't think Sasuke got to Gaara's real body. It was more the Shukaku extensions.Quote:
At the time that he caught them, Gaara had already been attacking...so they had already been attempting to dodge, yet he still got them.Quote:
Lolz, he captures and seals 1 former Kage, almost seals 2 others immediately afterward, and later actually succeeds in sealing 1 of the others, but I guess we shouldn't be impressed? As opposed to attempting to capture a jinchuuriki and being fooled by a replacement? Come on, at this point you're deliberately downgrading what Gaara accomplished. He completely outclassed his father and sealed the Niidame Mizukage, while protecting fodder and even saving Oonoki. As far as catching a second wind, he was busy helping Oonoki fight against and then seal Muu.Quote:
Of course at that point he had already participated in fighting against 3 Kages, sealing 2 of them.Quote:
Yea, and then a second meteor landed on top of the first one.Quote:
Actually...I can. Again, if Gaara actually catches him (as in the real him) with the sand, he doesn't have a body durable enough to survive a Desert Coffin or Desert Funeral.Quote:
We already know that Gaara can use Sand Bunshins well, can hide well, and had enough stamina to fight with multiple Kages, and then Madara, dealing with an otherworldly technique in the process. I agree that Sasuke can win with an opening, but we also know that Gaara is able to bring that sand up damn quickly, and that he can switch positions, etc. fairly well. As far as your point with the sand, we already know that he can create more sand, and create more sand quickly. In Part 1 vs. Kimimaro, they were fighting in a grassy field. He made an abundance of sand pretty quickly when it was necessary. I'm not worried about Gaara being able to create enough sand to defend himself.Quote:
Like I said, Gaara's best bet is to prolong the fight as long as possible, hoping that the costs of Sasuke's techniques catch up to him. I'm on the fence because we've seen Gaara be able to fight for quite a while, dealing with high-level techniques, and he has the ability to use clones and such to avoid taking major damage. I'm leaning toward Sasuke, but Gaara gives trouble to nearly anyone.Quote:
I'm not really stressing the strength of the attack. It's the speed I'm referring to. I don't get how you can compare the speed you usually see Raikage performing, to that leg drop and think they're similar. I'll never understand it.Originally Posted by UchihaHunter
Ofcourse he can make more sand... in some time. Whether it happens before he eats a Chidori is the question. And for blocking that leg drop it actually does negate it since you can't accurately show me when Gaara started the attack. To accurately guage how fast he placed the sand in between them we'd need to know the origin point. And while it wouldn't make Gai's speed seem slow just because he came in out of nowhere, Gai has other ways of proving it was amazing speed. Starting with the fact that he was a friggin' after image when he got over there.Quote:
At this point it doesn't even matter, since it's not like the attack was outrunning Raikage or Sasuke. What I need to see is his sand moving atleast at Sasuke-level speed (which hasn't happened/won't happen).Quote:
The thing is you're not making an argument for how fast Bee is, you're making one for how fast Gaara's sand is. I need to see why it can be treated non-chalauntly by Madara and just casually hopped over. Not to mention Itachi is one of the fastest ninja in the manga and Bee was using no chakra shroud so his attacks were no problem. As for how Madara dodged without looking: it's sand. I imagine when it moves it sounds like you're pouring sugar into a bowl. He sensed it's approach whether it be from sound or some other means.Quote:
And I respect you too much to think that you'd resort to deliberately misinterpreting the scenario to suit your argument. So I'm just gonna maintain that stance and just assume it was an accident, then clarify:Quote:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/357/7 Deidara looking directly at Sasuke.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/357/8 Sasuke blitzing the guy looking directly at him.
In no point of that initial scuffle was Deidara not watching Sasuke coming for him and even with a bead on him AND at a considerable distance he still overwhelms him with his speed. Not conditional. Not based on surprise other than the surprise that Sasuke is that damn fast.
He also noted that Susanoo was superior than it. Just sayin'. As for the Mokuton growth, I'd need confirmation that Gaara's sand is more durable than the Mokuton that blocked his arrow. Even if it blocks it it's gonna pierce through by a considerable amount before stopping. And if it's an Enton arrow then the resulting flames will do the job that the arrow couldn't do. As for using Enton against Sasuke, it's viable... until Sasuke simply turns the flames off. But if the sand isn't touching him, the flames coating the sand probably won't either.Quote:
Most certainly. I've seen Gaara's sand fail far too many times to catch it's targets, and I've seen Gaara slammed multiple times at close range by opponents that are faster than him or have ways to get past his sand. Lee outran his sand and kicked him around (put a Chidori on his hand and Gaara would be dead). Kimimaro ran through it and bumrushed him. Could've cut him down when he did. Jouki Boy had to be pre-empted by clones what... twice? He might have even been struck once or twice. I'm perfectly comfortable with claiming Sasuke will do the same multiple people have done already. Blitz him. Except his offensive options means he doesn't have to do it over and over the way Lee needed to. Get in once. Once, and it's over.Quote:
Nope. Gaara wanted Lee to try his speed against his armor. He had just been thrashed trying to use his regular sand and, as per Kankuro's admittance, he put his armor on because he was in trouble. He beckoned Lee to come because he expected to be able to take all his blows. Not to mention he couldn't make a clone to escape until Lee felt a sharp pain and paused for a second (as per Kakashi's claim). The speed was simply too much.Quote:
As for what Gai says about Sasuke, that's kinda my entire point: combine Lee-level speed (that shits on Gaara's sand) with Sasuke-level offensive power (Chidori, Chidori Eisou, Chidorigatana) and you have a dead Gaara.
..and I don't see a real point to cover everything else again. You already lean toward Sasuke. I'm just trying to get you past the idea that his sand is of any speed that Sasuke can't deal with.
Oh, one more point: you said that grabbing Sasuke once with the sand would be the end of him. That's simply not true. When Naruto was grabbed by Gaara's sand, what did he do? Break out by summoning Gamabunta and pushing the sand away. Sasuke can simply activate Susanoo which would push away the surrounding sand before he's crushed. I was waiting for you to catch that one.