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Thread: Gaara vs. Sasuke

  1. #46
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
    I'm not saying that Kimimaro will pierce Sasuke's sword, I'm saying that Kimimaro's piercing ability at least rivales with a Chidori-like attack.
    And I'm saying you're basing that on assumption. There's absolutely nothing to imply that it's Chidori-like in destructive force just because they are both piercing attacks. For one, Chidori still stuns and burns targets because it's actual lightning. That bone is just extra hard. It has no super enhanced cutting ability, it's just incredibly hard.

    Quote Quote:
    As for Gaara not being capable to block Sasuke, don't forget that the Sasuke that pierced his defence had a whole lot running to increase his piercing and destructive power, a Chidori from a short distance do not have the same piercing capacity imho.
    Not only that, but seeing as Sasuke already owned him with an attack like that, Gaara would likely flee instead of being a sitting duck.
    In part 1 he simply greatly underestimate Sasuke
    It's not the power I'm referring to when I say he can't block it. It's the fact that you're referring to his dome defense when stating blocking it. Gaara is immobile during this attack and if escaping the dome was as easy as you're making it out to be he wouldn't have bothered with spike defenses protruding from the dome to keep the enemy away. The more dense and compacted the dome is, the longer it'll take to get out of it. And if he DOES drop the defense to leap out and leave a clone behind, then he's weakening the sand so he can escape, making it even easier to plow through.


    Quote Quote:
    He still fired 4 Dragons, even if it was a single B rank.
    Not one dragon, 4.
    Which is different from firing 1 dragon
    Oh no you don't. You claimed he wasted a colossal amount of chakra, so much he could only do it with the aid of Orochimaru's chakra AND CS2. Using 1 B rank jutsu does NOT cost the same as 4 consecutive B rank jutsu. I never said he fired 1 dragon. I said he fired one B rank jutsu.

    Quote Quote:
    Even the time that requires for the ligthing to appear and then to form is likely enough for Gaara to set up his defence.
    And you forget that Kirin requires at least 1 to 3 minutes to form, plenty of time, for Gaara, to do what he wants. And despite Sasuke having more chakra, the Goryakyuu would still dent his reserves a good bit, and he would have to strenghten it and likely use more than once the jutsu, since he doesn't have his CS2 anymore.
    Did you forget that CS2 greatly enhances the strenght of the user?
    hebi Sasuke had CS2 + Oro's powers, and he still required, after the Goryakyuu the aid of an entire forest burned by Amaterasu.
    The increased stamina pays in a decreased strenght
    Sasuke doens't have to use multiple Gouryuuka. On the contrarty, he can rely on Amaterasu the same way he did with Itachi, except he can cast his own Amaterasu. As for Gaara having time to make that sand defense, you're STILL assuming he knows a giant lightning bolt is being amassed above when Itachi didn't until Sasuke started mouthing off. But let's assume you're right: Sasuke sits there and watches Gaara try to hold a mountain above him and just... waits. We'll see how long he keeps it up before Sasuke drops Kirin. Sasuke has no obligation to drop the jutsu until he's good and ready, and Gaara will simply tire himself out trying to hold that much sand above him in anticipation of an attack he can't see coming thanks to holding a veritable island above his head.

    Quote Quote:
    This isn't Gaara using attack when exhausted, this is Gaara using his sand to fly and stay afloat despite being nearly depleted.
    Nearly depleted he moved a village worth of sand out of the way.
    Completely depleted, he easily floated and moved in air Lee and himself against Kimimaro.

    As for the summon, the hawk wasn't that big, true, but it wasn't overly small either.
    He wasn't nearly depleted when he protected Suna. He didn't start getting exhausted until after he protected the village. And when he was nearly depleted against Kimimaro his sand was slowly floating to the ground, and he couldn't defend from Kimimaro's final attack.

    And my point about the summon is that Gaara has to STEADILY pour chakra into making himself fly, where as Sasuke simply wastes chakra once. Aslong as they stay in the air Gaara is constantly pouring chakra into his movements, attacks, and defenses. It costs nothing to ride on the hawk. Aslong as Sasuke stays on the move his chakra isn't being diminished while Gaara's is. And for the cost of that hawk, it's no bigger than a C-rank Goukakkyu. If the chakra cost is similar at all then Sasuke's not running dry any time soon.


    Quote Quote:
    Oonoki did not control the jutsu, he used the same jutsu on himself and the other two.
    The other two were way slower since they were slower to begin with.
    How can you prove this? He may not have been controlling their movements, but he likely was responsible for them staying in mid air buy using his own constant chakra drain as fuel.

    Quote Quote:
    Giant, enormous targets, the both of them
    So? You asked who he hit, I showed you. And if you're trying to imply that it's not accurate, or never hit anyone he was trying to hit, that goes both ways: the ONLY person to EVER dodge a Chidori Eisou was a ninja who could friggin' sense the attack (Kabuto) and a ninja that was already out of range and steadily fleeing (Deidara). Downplaying Eisou's feats means nothing when the only times it failed was in a highly situational... situation.


    Quote Quote:
    it was a wasteland, not a desert.
    It was a desert. It just had certain areas with more sand than others: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/546/8

    Even if that were true that it wasn't a desert Gaara already mixed a portion of his sand in the ground since he was fighting his father:

    Quote Quote:
    All that it was around was rock, not sand.
    As for all the hard work, it still remains the fact that Susano'o is weak on the base and that Gaara can easily move and control sand to sneak up to Sasuke below him and catch him despite Susano'o. Even if he doesn't pull him out, he can use the Desert Coffin from within Susano'o to squeeze the life out of Sasuke.
    And depending on the sand quantity even the summon wouldn't be enough imho since, as you said, it wasn't that big.
    No. No way in hell a Sand Coffin's getting inside of Susanoo. It's simply not enough room and he'll have to try to force the sand through the Susanoo to get enough in there to crush him. The most he could hope for is a damaged foot, and since Sasuke can fly before that happens, everything's fine.

    Quote Quote:
    Still you can say rightly that, even if trapped, Sasuke can likely launch an Amaterasu arrow at Gaara.
    That way the fastest one would win, and the slowest would die
    The speed at which his arrows launch is stressed to be insane. I don't have any problem believing he can fire one shot before the sand can get a good grip on him, especially since Gaara doesn't have someone there posing a distraction like he had with Madara. This leads me to believe 9 out of 10 times, the faster one will be Sasuke. What no one's acknowledging is that with all the battlefield sized attacks Gaara has in his employ, it only takes one direct hit of considerable power to out him down. Sasuke doesn't need to directly compete in a strength contest when all he needs is 1 opening. ONE. And with the abiilty to paralyze or confuse with Genjutsu in addition to attacks that hit in the blink of an eye, his chances get better and better.

    Quote Quote:
    When Sasuke did it, Gaara was a sitting duck.
    Just recently ( relatively ), Dodai did it against the Third Raikage.
    Again, situational. If they're on the ground the chances are good, but if they're flying (which they will be, as Gaara want's NO part of a close encounter with Sasuke), then that becomes infinitely trickier. Dodai wasn't caught in a paralysis Genjutsu when that happened either, was he?

    Quote Quote:
    As for the movement, it depends on the line of vision, the dome is laced with Chakra, so all Sasuke would see would be chakra. And again, he didn't notice Deidara's clay clone in plain sight
    I'm talking about natural, human eyesight. If you hit the dome with a giant Susanoo fist, since the whole dome is crushed, there's no way you won't see the guy sneak out. And if you're both flying and you hit the dome with an arrow, when he jumps out there's no where to go but down, so he WILL be seen if he just drops. If he flies away from the dome however, he has to pull off some of the sand with him, which is also easy to see.

    With Deidara it was different because he didn't leave the bird. He stayed inside of it while the clone was up on top. If Gaara's floating in a sand dome and he's hit with a Susanoo arrow, there's no place to go but outside of the dome.

    Quote Quote:
    Faster does not equal more resilient, and again it blocked, like, half of the matagamas.
    Still you're right, there is a possibility that, even if Gaara can divert its course, he can still be hit. It remains to be seen though.
    Again, you're being generous. We saw practically a dozen magatama and some of them hit the golem first. Then Gaara's sand appeared above the golem. There's no telling how reselient it was because it wasn't blocking on it's own.

  2. #47
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    @Uchiha_Blood

    You are not understanding what "focused" Amaterasu means. Focused Amaterasu is when you stare at a target for an extended period of time. It has an increasing dps effect because that how fire works and that Amaterasu creates more flames along the way. The longer you're in it, the higher the heat and incinerating power. You can think of the first glace like a lit match. It's not that hot and you can even snuff it out with your fingers. Like a second later though, its like a 100 lit matches, then 1000, and etc. You wouldn't even be able to approach it because of the heat. Amaterasu creates flames at a very fast rate like when Itachi created enough to blow a hole through Jiraiya's fire toad summon which is fire resistant, and when Sasuke completely covered Bee in seconds and created that Amaterasu wall against Kabuto. The Samurai only got tagged lightly as Sasuke stopped Amaterasu immediately to follow Ee's movements. If Sasuke had focused on him for even a second, he would have been completely covered by the flames and burned to ashes like Danzou or that fire toad meat wall.

    Susanoo also does not have a weak spot at the legs. It actually acts very much like a cloak that completely covers the user. Madara falls into and gets completely covered by Mei's Lava yet it did not seep into Susanoo. Heck, Madara stands right on top of the lava like its nothing.

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  4. #48
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I believe most of us are confused by Kishi's inconsistency, let me explain:
    we saw various degree of Amaterasu, hell a focused Amaterasu couldn't burn much of Nagato, only part of his arm, despite Itachi explaining basically Koto Amatsukami ( and he did a lot of talking ).
    Same for Sasuke and the Samurai.

    Simply put, Kishi adaptes it as the occasion goes
    This is what I mean by "not focused" though. He looked at Nagato, Nagato was set aflame, and then Itachi looked away and began conversing with Bee and Naruto, while Amaterasu burned. Similar to the flames burning the forest slowly, rather than quickly.

    The only examples I can think of off the top of my head of the user continuing to look at what they're attacking are the frog's belly and Danzou. Although, maybe it's easier to explain by looking at the Hachibi or Sasuke getting hit with it. If the user can weaken the flames as necessary, it makes sense that they can strengthen the flames as well. It also explains how Amaterasu burned through the belly of a toad that breathes fire, and how Karin's back somehow survived longer than Danzou's body, lol.

    Basically, the generic property of Amaterasu seems to that the flames won't die until they've destroyed their target. By focusing with the MS, one can either get rid of the flames or make them burn hotter, if that makes sense.
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

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  6. #49
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Because the Chidori that pierced Gaara's defence was a Chidori charged with a lot of running, which definitely increases the Chidori's power and piercing abilities.

    As for the Goryuuka, we saw that Katons are mostly ineffective against Gaara's sand, and even if it got through a wall, don't forget that Gaara's sand is different from normal sand.
    For the arrow, I meant like the Mokuton did, deviate its course. Since moving sand does not required handseals, it can be done if the sand is resilient enough, which is debatable
    Sasuke showed he doesn't need much distances to pierce with Chidori, as he was able to get through Ee's Lightning Cloak at a pretty short range. Sasuke stated that a Katon "of that level" was the issue, and the Goryuuka is much stronger then the Goukakyuu. Gaara's sand is like regular sand, just enhanced with chakra and blood to be faster and stronger. Danzo's Mokuton didn't really divert the arrow more then it did push him to the side. Besides, we saw that enough speed can get around even his personal sand and by all accounts the arrows are plenty fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    In part 1 Kimimaro was faster and more skilled than Sasuke, that much is obvious.
    And Kimimaro's strongest piercing attack couldn't touch Gaara, neither all of his attacks until the CS2, to say.
    As for the MS spam, what Sasuke spams is Susano'o, he is conservative with Amaterasu since he uses it 1, 2 times at most
    Perhaps compared to Part 1 Sasuke, but the current Sasuke? Anyway, Kimimaro spent most of that battle fighting at a distances, using his Finger Bullets, which didn't appear incredibly fast. It wasn't until he activated CS2 that he actually went in close. And to block his strongest piercing attack, Gaara didn't just defend with his sand, but also had to draw upon the strongest materials in the ground, since Kimimaro had no trouble rushing through his regular sand defense. That's not exactly something Gaara can pull out to block Sasuke's attack, not at the speed Sasuke moves. And MS techniques are MS techniques. They all cost the same high cost and the only difference is that Susanoo also affects Sasuke painfully through his body. If he can use Susanoo multiple times before with just MS, he can do the same with Amaterasu in it's place with EMS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I really would like proof, I provided 2 examples in which a concentrated Amaterasu didn't do anything
    Already explained by others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Remember against Danzou?
    Before Amaterasu he was fine and dandy, when he used it he got all sweaty and tired, and Tobi too commented on it. Amaterasu is costly, 2 Amaterasu depleted most of Itachi's chakra, which isn't saying much, I know, but still it means that it is requires a ton of chakra
    Sasuke wasn't effected just because of Amaterasu, but because he used it while also using the skeletal Susanoo for a while. Tobi mentioned that it was the combination that did it. Against Ee, he had no trouble shooting off Amaterasu with just the Susanoo riblet's active. And Itachi went on after using two Amaterasus to activate Susanoo twice, one for quite a while, before finishing things off with one last seal in Sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    No, follow the panels, the Amaterasu is focused since it was directed to A, only when it hit the samurai Sasuke diverted his attention
    Yes, and once Sasuke diverted his attention, he was no longer focusing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Kakashi was fooled by Zabuza's, Itachi by Kakashi's. And yes, Sasuke didn't know that the Itachi on the cave was a crow bushin.
    And no, since both uses materials to form a bushin it is likely to assume that they work in a similar way, since for Deidara the medium is clay, while for Gaara is sand. We saw against Niidaime that the Sand Bushin works the same way, since he mistaked it for Oonoki
    Thought you were referring to the ones used when Itachi can to Konoha. Against Kakashi, the mist was hiding the real Zabuza and against Itachi, Kakashi had hid himself with a Doton. The point being, a clone is only trouble if the user is hidden away. Gaara has no way to hide himself while the clone is out. And all clones are made from materials, that doesn't mean they all work in the same way. Deidara's clone was capable of using his techniques, while we never seen any of Gaara's clones use a technique. And while Deidara's clones can take a hit and keep together, Gaara's clones are destroyed with one good blow. Neither of those two are like Water clones, which are weaker then the user and Wood clones, which can gather information and merge back into the user to give them said info.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Hide inside a dome?
    And Sasuke still would've seen through the bushin if he was able to, since his vision was pretty clear
    But a dome wouldn't work in the same way, since it would be obvious. There wasn't anything obvious about the bird since Deidara had already shown he uses such objects for flight beforehand. A randomly created dome would be much more questionable then a bird created for flight, since there wouldn't really be any other reason for Gaara to create a dome outside defense. Sasuke did see the clone, but with no other sign of Deidara on the field, he had no reason to assume it wasn't the real Deidara.

  7. #50
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    @Uchiha_Blood


    Quote Quote:
    You clearly missed the fact that Gaara's sand isn't simple sand, but special sand mixed with Gaara's chakra.
    Not shameful, since it was explained early in part 1 ( or 2 I guess, I don't remember if it was explained in the Rock Lee vs Gaara fight or against Deidara, or maybe against Sasuke? ).
    Since it is chakra mixed with Sand, it is reasonable to believe that War Arc Gaara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Part 1 Gaara in terms of sand
    I know how his sand works(even said in that post that its chakra with sand). Now what you need to prove is that War Arc Gaara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Part 1 Gaara in terms of sand. Using ">>>>>" is not evidence. You are welcomed to find 1 line where he states his sand has increased in durability or whatever.

    Quote Quote:
    Any of Raikage blows are Taijutsu with added momentum, yet they do a shit load of damage.
    And no, he brings down his leg, see the lines, and the impact?

    And no, the Raiton armour is not a simple shield.
    Do I have to link you the countless times Raikage used the Raiton Armour to attack with his Nintaijutsu?
    The sand is covering his leg and ass. Gaara stoped his attack before it was actualy released. He was up in the air way above Sasuke when the sand "jumped in", it was before Raikage actualy swinged his lag down, something that he would do when he would be close enough to Sasuke to actualy hit him. Raikage jumped with his leg armed and then before he got close to Sasuke to really swing down the sand stoped him. Nobody would punch you 3 meters before you face.

    Also his Raiton Armour is a shield. It can be fashioned into a cutting move but its a shield. Him hitting you with it is not going to cut your head off or apply any piercing/cutting force if he does not create an attack of that type.
    Quote Quote:
    Against the Samurai warrior it was a focused Amaterasu my friend.
    Focused Amaterasu aimed at Raikage and hitting the samurai.
    So here, proof.
    Unless you can bring me a clear statement in which Sasuke, Itachi, Tobi or Madara says that Amaterasu burns differently then I will pull a move out of your book on Yondaime's debating and saying that unless it is proven and states otherwise it is false.
    That is not focused Amaterasu. Sasuke moved his eye after Raikage.... Focused Amaterasu is when you focus you eye on the target to burn it down. I also got the evidence as i stated some 10 times in this topic alone going from when people just get Amaterasu on them to instances when X actualy is focusing his eye on the target and the diference in damage done.

    Quote Quote:
    Seem like a pretty easy thing to do, since he upped it up in an istant, despite being bound
    That is a construct. Its irrelevant. That is so dense it can't move (or at least he never showed to move creap like that in sand form. He eneeded to compact the sand and minerals to get that, sand flying about can't have that.
    Also the speed he can do that at was never showed. We don't know the time he needed to prep it. He could have had the minerals ready to go in the ground before the actualy swing.

    Quote Quote:
    1-It is Raikiri, not Chidori, and it is an hyperbole
    2-Sharpest point of a spear. What a spear does? It pierces. And it was ultra-powered bone by a CS2
    3-Kimimaro pierced the chakra-infused katanas of the samurai, in base mode, not the other way around.
    4-And Orochimaru was infatuated by Kimimaro saying that it was the body he desired the most, so A praising Chidori doesn't mean a thing.
    Oro didn't kept Sasuke around because he was all that talented, it was only because he needed a Sharingan. Sasuke remarks it too when confronting him, saying that he went for the "weaker Uchiha"
    I know they where refering to Raikiri but its close to the same thing. Also no, the Katanas chiped the bones. Orochimaru statemant does not mean a bone has better piercing power. Its irrelevant why Oro kept him around. Now you can go ahead and post the super piercing feats of his bones that would but them up with Chidori/Raikage. For 1 Choidori was able to go trough Naruto's 1 tails shield.

    Quote Quote:
    Considering it blocked his leg, in which it streamed lighting chakra then yes, I believe that it has some sort of piercing power, given the element.
    Do you believe Lariat to be a piercing move? Then why did it cave in Sasuke's chest, or cut Kisame's head?
    The shield does not cut if Raikage does not make some cutting shape form out of his raiton armour. Lariat has blunt force probably i don't know but its irrelevant anyway.
    Quote Quote:
    It simply proves that your convinction that Chidori>all is unfounded by manga feats
    And where have i said Chidori>all? Stop posting BS. I said Chidori > Bone.... Some nonsense you keep posting and making stuff up that i never stated.

    Quote Quote:
    Again, with manga proof and not your convinction, we saw that Gaara's sand could withstand Amaterasu.
    It burning fire doesn't mean nothing, since fire neved did a thing to Gaara's sand.
    But of course focused Amaterasu is stronger, after all that Samurai got cremated in an instant.
    Oh wait...
    Comparing not burning trough Karin's back to burning trough fireproof material and solid wall close to instantly. Great logic there bub.

    Quote Quote:
    He fired 4 of those Dragon things to set it up, then got a lot of time of talking, then Zetsu got a lot of time of thinking, then again, good bit of talking, then he drops it.

    Seems to me a pretty good deal of time, not 10 seconds.
    But of course, continue to believe it
    It was 1 right after another(so no real time gap). Also look at the sky right before they are shoot and after. It goes from clear sky to heavy clouds in seconds and them some more seconds later it starts to rain. How long do you think he had to chat? Try reading it, i bet you can do that in less then 20 seconds. Also the 10 seconds it was to the point heavy clouds where up, not the rain. Again try to read it, i bet you can do it in 10 seconds.
    10 secs to top middle panel here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/390/14

    All in all he can shoot 1 down in some 30 seconds.
    Quote Quote:
    Not proven by anything, neither he used it, so it is, as you say, irrilevant
    huh? So he was waving at them? It was the same hand gesture as he used when he shoot the Kirin down on Itachi. Its obvious. He can shoot 1 like that, what i can't prove is how powerfull it will be.

    Quote Quote:
    Kirin isn't an EMS jutsu.
    Not only that, but one can know what it does by using common sense, I mean you see a giant thunder, then you see Sasuke using a raiton thing to take control of it. I doubt it requires all those smarts to figure things out lol.
    Since Gaara managed to defend from Madara's meteor, I don't doubt he can withstand Kirin. Unless you believe that a giant meteor << Kirin
    Itachi only noticed it when Sasuke pointed it out. The meteor does not strike down faster then you can blink.Just read here how fast it can strike:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/391/6
    You actualy belive Gaara can form any defence? Its imposible.
    Madara's meteor was also effected by Tsukisage.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, because Amaterasu is so hot to burn those who are close to it.
    I guess Sasuke and Itachi are immune to it, since they stand around it pretty close without breaking a sweat.
    And again, Gaara's sand withstood Amaterasu flames no problem
    I already told you, they can increase its power be focusing...

    Quote Quote:
    Already proven that it required 4 dragon fireballs + Amaterasu flames.
    Again we don't know how far the flamethrower goes or how heating material a Susano'o arrow provides, since it is plenty different from an entire forest burning with Amaterasu flames
    Yes it was 4. The point is the sky before that was close to clear. After he used that it whent to heavy clouds in some 10 seconds and then some other 10-20 seconds to heavy rain. I have no idea how much Amaterasu burning crep helped but it should not be to much as the change in the sky was direcly corelated with those fireballs.

    Quote Quote:
    From below, Susano'o weak point.
    And Gaara can make the sand travel underground
    From below Gaara grabed Susano so he can't move. Then Tsuk made his sand ligther and it somehow entered Susano from the front and grabed Madara:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/560/12
    You can see it here coming from Gaara and going inside from the front. I have no bloody idea how light sand can enter Susano. Then you can see him here pop right trough it:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/560/13

    Also that translation does not make much sense considering Gaara whent trough the front with his sand. I really don't get wtf was that about.

    1 thing is for sure, Gaara needs that light sand to do this. So what happend there is not relevant as he can't reproduce it under his own power. He himself stated that now that he has this can do that.

    Quote Quote:
    Yet he can't distinguish a clay bushin made of chakra from Deidara.
    How come?
    Probably the same as SC jutsus. it reproduces the user. Chakra underground would be clear. I have no idea why you would compare a clone to chakra.
    Last edited by xXan; April 13, 2012 at 03:06 AM.

  8. #51
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    @ Ninjabot

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    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood
    I know how his sand works(even said in that post that its chakra with sand). Now what you need to prove is that War Arc Gaara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Part 1 Gaara in terms of sand. Using ">>>>>" is not evidence. You are welcomed to find 1 line where he states his sand has increased in durability or whatever.
    It survived a Meteor, Jokey Boy, Enton Amaterasu and the like.
    If you believe that a Gaara which sand was easily swatted away by Gai was as powerful, be my guest and continue to believe so

    Quote Quote:
    The sand is covering his leg and ass. Gaara stoped his attack before it was actualy released. He was up in the air way above Sasuke when the sand "jumped in", it was before Raikage actualy swinged his lag down, something that he would do when he would be close enough to Sasuke to actualy hit him. Raikage jumped with his leg armed and then before he got close to Sasuke to really swing down the sand stoped him. Nobody would punch you 3 meters before you face.
    Don't forget that Sasuke pulled Kagutsuchi, so Raikage had to go through it.
    Makes sense that he was swinging the leg down, otherwise he would've risked to be blocked by the Enton Shield

    Quote Quote:
    Also his Raiton Armour is a shield. It can be fashioned into a cutting move but its a shield. Him hitting you with it is not going to cut your head off or apply any piercing/cutting force if he does not create an attack of that type.
    So, for you, he doesn't use the Raiton properties for all of his attacks, despite having the possibility to do so, and having showed to do so.
    Alas, we are going off-topic

    Quote Quote:
    That is a construct. Its irrelevant. That is so dense it can't move (or at least he never showed to move creap like that in sand form. He eneeded to compact the sand and minerals to get that, sand flying about can't have that.
    Also the speed he can do that at was never showed. We don't know the time he needed to prep it. He could have had the minerals ready to go in the ground before the actualy swing.
    He summoned it pretty quickly, so the speed was good.
    As for the minerals already on the ground, unless Sasuke in the first seconds goes apeshit on his and unleashes all his arsenal on poor Gaara, then he has all the time in the world to set it up

    Quote Quote:
    I know they where refering to Raikiri but its close to the same thing. Also no, the Katanas chiped the bones. Orochimaru statemant does not mean a bone has better piercing power. Its irrelevant why Oro kept him around. Now you can go ahead and post the super piercing feats of his bones that would but them up with Chidori/Raikage. For 1 Choidori was able to go trough Naruto's 1 tails shield.
    No, Chidori is a A rank while Raikiri is a S rank.
    Remember the Rasengan vs Fuuton:Rasengan? Kakashi's hand was wasted when they impacted, so no, they are not close.
    As for oro's statements, it holds the same weight as the Raikage one.
    The Chidori that got through Naruto was a CS2 fueled Chidori, which is way stronger than a normal Chidori. Like Kimi's spear was say stronger than his normal bone that pierced a samurai's katana with chakra streaming on it

    Quote Quote:
    And where have i said Chidori>all? Stop posting BS. I said Chidori > Bone.... Some nonsense you keep posting and making stuff up that i never stated.
    You are basically implying that Chidori's piercing abilities can't be countered by anything.

    Quote Quote:
    Comparing not burning trough Karin's back to burning trough fireproof material and solid wall close to instantly. Great logic there bub.
    Blame Kishimoto not me for pointing out his flaws lol

    Quote Quote:
    It was 1 right after another(so no real time gap). Also look at the sky right before they are shoot and after. It goes from clear sky to heavy clouds in seconds and them some more seconds later it starts to rain. How long do you think he had to chat? Try reading it, i bet you can do that in less then 20 seconds. Also the 10 seconds it was to the point heavy clouds where up, not the rain. Again try to read it, i bet you can do it in 10 seconds.
    10 secs to top middle panel here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/390/14

    All in all he can shoot 1 down in some 30 seconds.
    I agree to disagree, evidently we have different concept of time

    Quote Quote:
    huh? So he was waving at them? It was the same hand gesture as he used when he shoot the Kirin down on Itachi. Its obvious. He can shoot 1 like that, what i can't prove is how powerfull it will be.
    As you like to say, it is not stated nor proven nor showed, so it is not provable, and it is not relevant.
    You are a hypocrite if in a topic you scream " Yondaime never proved it !!!11!!one!!" and then you pull a 180° in this topic


    Quote Quote:
    Itachi only noticed it when Sasuke pointed it out. The meteor does not strike down faster then you can blink.Just read here how fast it can strike:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/391/6
    You actualy belive Gaara can form any defence? Its imposible.
    Madara's meteor was also effected by Tsukisage.
    If it isn't already prepped, yes. If it is already prepped, no, as I said when I commented on Scenario 2.
    And Madara's meteor was affected, yes, but Madara dropped a second one on top of it, so actually Oonoki made it worse, and yet Gaara still survived it intact

    Quote Quote:
    From below Gaara grabed Susano so he can't move. Then Tsuk made his sand ligther and it somehow entered Susano from the front and grabed Madara:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/560/12
    You can see it here coming from Gaara and going inside from the front. I have no bloody idea how light sand can enter Susano. Then you can see him here pop right trough it:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/560/13

    Also that translation does not make much sense considering Gaara whent trough the front with his sand. I really don't get wtf was that about.

    1 thing is for sure, Gaara needs that light sand to do this. So what happend there is not relevant as he can't reproduce it under his own power. He himself stated that now that he has this can do that.
    It might to pull him out of Susano'o fast enough, the sand at Madara's feet wasn't lighted by Oonoki.
    Gaara grabbing Sasuke's feet and crushing them, or making the sand crawl on top of him can happen. Sasuke can counter it, but this is another story

    Quote Quote:
    Probably the same as SC jutsus. it reproduces the user. Chakra underground would be clear. I have no idea why you would compare a clone to chakra.
    You do know Bushins are made of chakra, right?
    And lol, now every jutsu is a kage bushin?
    The only jutsus that have Kage Bushins property are the ones that have Kage Bushin in the name, so:
    normal Kage Bushin and Mokuton Kage Bushins.
    Others are normal bushins

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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    @Uchiha_Blood

    Creating more flames directly increases the heat and incinerating power of Amaterasu. That is the point. Sasuke will be able to burn a through Gaara's sand ball by focusing on it. Even if it does not burn through it, the ball will be completely consumed in flames in seconds and will simply bake Gaara inside of it. It is similar to how Ee had to cut off his arm even though the Amaterasu flames didn't directly make contact with his skin. The heat is damaging or has already damaged his arm enough where he needed to remove it in the middle of a battle.

    As for Susanoo, I've already shown that Madara has no problem standing directly on top of molting Lava. Susanoo can cover its user completely when willed to. The sand Gaara used to grab Madara was likely already inside Susanoo when it was formed or that Madara left his base open because he didn't think he needed it. But the point is Susanoo CAN completely cover its user. Sasuke knows about Gaara's abilities and he is not going to make the same mistakes Madara made. Susanoo is almost like a Green Lantern ring. Its protection and form is completely up to the will of its user, but of course the energy/chakra construct is limited to the Susanoo body.

    I still have no idea why you think Gaara can defend himself from Kirin if he is not already protected inside his sand. Gaara can't even move his sand fast enough to catch people like Lee and Jokey Boy. How is he going to move it fast enough to block lightning.
    Last edited by chilibun; April 13, 2012 at 10:39 AM.

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  11. #53
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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    On this note, I would say that Mokuton wood is just wood, so how can wood divert something like that?
    Gaara's sand isn't normal sand, like Mokuton wood isn't normal wood.

    And again, if a C rank couldn't do damage to the weakest Gaara to date ( since the sand was pretty immune from fire ), it is unbelievable that a stronger B rank would do damage to a much stronger Gaara that stopped even Amaterasu's flames.
    It didn't. If you look at the before and after, you can see that it was Danzo who moved, not the arrow. The tree he created pushed him out of the way. It was a Gaara being powered by Shukaku. Anyway, unlike the Enton, we've seen that the Goryuuka can burst through solid matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    it was to show that the Gaara that was pierced by Chidori wasn't the same than the Gaara that stopped Kimi.
    And he pulled out that shield pretty fast, and nothing prevents him to collect minerals underground while fighting.

    As for MS jutsus, I will not go there since we can discuss this infinitely and not reach a conclusion, better drop it lol
    The point is that Gaara to create a specialize shield to block, due to his own sand defesne not being enough. And being able to pull it out fast doesn't mean much against a guy who can run circles around him. Unless Sasuke only preforms forward charges, that shield isn't gonna help much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    If they are flying, yes.
    If they are on the ground, Gaara can hide underground. As for Gaara's Bushins, remember when Niidaime pierced the bushin's throat? The same happened than when Deidara's clone was hit, the illusion remained until the user wanted to, and then revert to being made of the element.
    They seem pretty similar to me
    Gaara can't hide underground, he doesn't possess such an ability. Gaara's clones transform whenever they are hit, regardless of the type of blow, while Deidara's clones transform when he wants them to, as shown against Onoki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Sharingan sees chakra, so unless paired against a Kage Bushin it would be able to tell those apart.
    As in, if the Sharingan could. Seems like it can't distinguish from clones
    Not really, given that as far as we've seen all the various clones have the same working as a Shadow Clone, what with being capable of acting upon their own and using their owner's techniques. Now it could probably tell the difference if they were standing together, as Sasuke showed when Itachi made one during their battle, which is why the user always hides while using them.

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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood

    Creating more flames directly increases the heat and incinerating power of Amaterasu. That is the point. Sasuke will be able to burn a through Gaara's sand ball by focusing on it. Even if it does not burn through it, the ball will be completely consumed in flames in seconds and will simply bake Gaara inside of it. It is similar to how Ee had to cut off his arm even though the Amaterasu flames didn't directly make contact with his skin. The heat is damaging or has already damaged his arm enough where he needed to remove it in the middle of a battle.

    As for Susanoo, I've already shown that Madara has no problem standing directly on top of molting Lava. Susanoo can cover its user completely when willed to. The sand Gaara used to grab Madara was likely already inside Susanoo when it was formed or that Madara left his base open because he didn't think he needed it. But the point is Susanoo CAN completely cover its user. Sasuke knows about Gaara's abilities and he is not going to make the same mistakes Madara made. Susanoo is almost like a Green Lantern ring. Its protection and form is completely up to the will of its user, but of course the energy/chakra construct is limited to the Susanoo body.

    I still have no idea why you think Gaara can defend himself from Kirin if he is not already protected inside his sand. Gaara can't even move his sand fast enough to catch people like Lee and Jokey Boy. How is he going to move it fast enough to block lightning.
    We agree to disagree, imho a more focused Susano'o means only a wider area covered, thus more things to burn. The burning ability remains the same for the flames, yet of course it would be melt faster since it covers all the ball of sand.
    But then again Gaara already showed he can dive underground, and sand already showed that it can resist Amaterasu's flames, so he would survive it, and maybe nail Sasuke with a sneak attack from below.

    Regarding Susano'o, it clearly depends on where the Uchiha stands, it form from the ground ( and not from below it ) so naturally it is weak from attacks from below, as, again, Madara demonstrated.
    But since Sasuke needs to stand on something to fight, this becomes a non-issue. Susano'o can cover the feets, but only if under the user feets there is nothing or something the user doesn't want to.
    Considering the sand would've already enclosed Sasuke's feets, even if Susano'o would cut the flow of sand it would be useless.

    He can defend if Kirin needs to be prepped, since it is in no way or shape instantaneous.
    If it is already prepped of course he can't catch it, I said it countless times

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It didn't. If you look at the before and after, you can see that it was Danzo who moved, not the arrow. The tree he created pushed him out of the way. It was a Gaara being powered by Shukaku. Anyway, unlike the Enton, we've seen that the Goryuuka can burst through solid matter.
    Still doesn't change the fact that the sand used was the same, and that same sand showed to be able to withstand way more heavy attacks than the Goryuuka

    Quote Quote:
    The point is that Gaara to create a specialize shield to block, due to his own sand defesne not being enough. And being able to pull it out fast doesn't mean much against a guy who can run circles around him. Unless Sasuke only preforms forward charges, that shield isn't gonna help much.
    Gaara was showed to be able to react to pretty much anyone, except Jokey Boy, whose speed was outstanding.
    It was a jutsu from one of the strongest kages which most likely ended Muu, which was a sensor and pretty fast himself, so that is understandable. Others he could react to, and even Jokey Boy thanks to the gold sand, so no, I doubt Sasuke can run circles around him since his speed was all but forgotten and wasted in light of Susano'o, sadly.

    Quote Quote:
    Gaara can't hide underground, he doesn't possess such an ability. Gaara's clones transform whenever they are hit, regardless of the type of blow, while Deidara's clones transform when he wants them to, as shown against Onoki.
    See here? No sand whatsoever behind Lee.
    See here? Surprise buttsex Gaara appears behind Lee enclosed in sand
    Further shown here

    As for the clone, it depends always on the injury, light ones are tankable, yet true, Deidara's ones are more durable, apparently.
    Doesn't change the fact that those aren't kage clones, but clones using materials

    Quote Quote:
    Not really, given that as far as we've seen all the various clones have the same working as a Shadow Clone, what with being capable of acting upon their own and using their owner's techniques. Now it could probably tell the difference if they were standing together, as Sasuke showed when Itachi made one during their battle, which is why the user always hides while using them.
    No no no.
    Kage Bushins are one of a kind type of clones ( well, not after the Mokutons ) as Neji showed:
    they have the same chakra network and the same chakra quantity of the original, since it divides it in equal parts. Since they are made of materials, the Sharingan theorically should tell them apart, yet almost never showed to.
    Yet what you say makes some sense, but still Gaara leaving a clone behind would simply mean that Sasuke would waste an attack on it, which, depending from the magnitude, could be a disaster for him.

    And this makes you think:
    if sharingan wielders such as Itachi, Kakashi and Sasuke can't tell clones apart unless they are standing together ( which unless you are Naruto isn't that great of a strategy ) just how superior is Madara's Sharingan if he could distinguish Mokutons clones ( which are exact copies of the original down to the cellular level )?

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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Still doesn't change the fact that the sand used was the same, and that same sand showed to be able to withstand way more heavy attacks than the Goryuuka
    A strong enough physical force has been shown fully capable of getting through Gaara's sand. Heck, we've seen a powerful punch and kick break through. The Goryuuka should more then measure up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Gaara was showed to be able to react to pretty much anyone, except Jokey Boy, whose speed was outstanding.
    It was a jutsu from one of the strongest kages which most likely ended Muu, which was a sensor and pretty fast himself, so that is understandable. Others he could react to, and even Jokey Boy thanks to the gold sand, so no, I doubt Sasuke can run circles around him since his speed was all but forgotten and wasted in light of Susano'o, sadly.
    Gaara has always had a hard time reacting to people with above average speed, and Sasuke's speed is near the top tier. Sasuke's speed hasn't been forgotten. We've seen him make use of is speed against Ee, Danzo, and even against Kabuto. In fact, his current showing as shown him combining his speed with his Susanoo usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    See here? No sand whatsoever behind Lee.
    See here? Surprise buttsex Gaara appears behind Lee enclosed in sand
    Further shown here

    As for the clone, it depends always on the injury, light ones are tankable, yet true, Deidara's ones are more durable, apparently.
    Doesn't change the fact that those aren't kage clones, but clones using materials
    The sand would have been further back then out perspective. Gaara's clones have been taken out by a mere palm thrust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    No no no.
    Kage Bushins are one of a kind type of clones ( well, not after the Mokutons ) as Neji showed:
    they have the same chakra network and the same chakra quantity of the original, since it divides it in equal parts. Since they are made of materials, the Sharingan theorically should tell them apart, yet almost never showed to.
    Yet what you say makes some sense, but still Gaara leaving a clone behind would simply mean that Sasuke would waste an attack on it, which, depending from the magnitude, could be a disaster for him.

    And this makes you think:
    if sharingan wielders such as Itachi, Kakashi and Sasuke can't tell clones apart unless they are standing together ( which unless you are Naruto isn't that great of a strategy ) just how superior is Madara's Sharingan if he could distinguish Mokutons clones ( which are exact copies of the original down to the cellular level )?
    No they aren't. Neji stated how Shadow Clones were different from the regular clone technique, but the other variations all also possess the ability to use chakra and act on their own, meaning they to have a whole working chakra network. Outside from measuring how much chakra they have, there shouldn't be any notable differences.

    Either EMS granted him greater sight or he simply recognized the differences in the amount of chakra they had.

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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    I agree that you all aren't giving Gaara's sand the credit it deserves at this point in the manga. There's no way we can compare his Part 1 sand (which Gai blocked, and was barely able to block Kimimaro's spear attack) to his Part 2 sand, which stopped Deidara's #18, helped block Madara's meteor, blocked both Kagu-Tsuchi and Raikage's Guillotine Drop, etc. Even speedwise, considering how quickly his sand got between Raikage/Sasuke, or even when it got between those two Alliance members who were getting into it, I highly doubt that the sand is the same speed as it was in Part 1. Gaara got better. Even Lee notes in Part 1 that between the fight with him and the fight with Kimimaro, his attacks and such had gotten stronger. Hell, Gaara's dad thought that he was using the Shukaku due to how much sand was being manipulated. Gaara is freaking OP. Sensing abilities, high-class defense, high-class offense, decent analytical abilities, incredible durability IMO for someone who hadn't even been hit until Lee got to him, decent reaction times, etc. As expected of a Kage, even though he really only has one ability, like he said to Kimimaro "But with sand, I can do anything."

    At the same time, Uchiha_Blood, I think you're being obstinate on the Amaterasu point. Whether it's the focusing making the existing flames hotter or the focusing adding more flames (which...you know...still makes it hotter), the point is that focusing Amaterasu makes it more potent. I still don't think that a focused Amaterasu would burst through Gaara's sand though. Sasuke's best bet is diverting some of Gaara's attention (and thus defense) so that he can land a decisive blow, whether it's through the Susanoo arrow, Enton Matagama, Amaterasu, or Kirin.


    Also, regarding Gaara's reaction times against fast opponents: the only time he literally couldn't react to Lee was when Lee had opened 3+ gates and was bouncing him around like a pinball...even Kakashi was shocked at Lee's speed at that point. Sasuke's speed wasn't a problem once he was able to reveal his identity as a Jinchuuriki, and it was Kimimaro's durability/power that caused problems moreso than his speed. Note that despite him being able to hang with Lee speedwise, Gaara had no problem catching him.
    Last edited by UchihaHunter; April 17, 2012 at 07:49 AM.
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Focused Amaterasu is when you stare at a target for an extended period of time. It has an increasing dps effect...
    According to my calculations not even focused Amaterasu can out-dps's a full hair spec'd Sannin who's cycling Lions Mane and Toad Mouth Bind, while keeping Swamp of the Underworld active. If the Sannin is wearing Yeti-Fur Pauldron with hair enhancement bonus, then the dps difference becomes even more obvious, but those are hard to get. Uchiha Characters can only come close to such dps values if they have raid support from Windelement users, because their attacks increase the damage over time effect of all Amaterasu stacks on the target.

    The problem is during the encounter Gaara is going to refresh his sand shield 4 times (once every 25% hp), which also clears any active debuff effects, and that also includes Amaterasu stacks. Gaara has approximately 75.000 HP and 50% damage resistance... so Amaterasu will do only very little damage unless stacked for maximum effect, which in turn requires 4 or more Uchiha Characters with the highest skill level of their bloodline limit unlocked, which in turn means they are lacking those skillpoints in other areas.

    Imho its not worth it... just go with Sannins and your raid will be much more successful overall.

    I hope this helps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    He was once a very charismatic, kind, special and inspiring person. LnDRash was a premium brand, now this brand is called LnDTRash!

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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    According to my calculations not even focused Amaterasu can out-dps's a full hair spec'd Sannin who's cycling Lions Mane and Toad Mouth Bind, while keeping Swamp of the Underworld active. If the Sannin is wearing Yeti-Fur Pauldron with hair enhancement bonus, then the dps difference becomes even more obvious, but those are hard to get. Uchiha Characters can only come close to such dps values if they have raid support from Windelement users, because their attacks increase the damage over time effect of all Amaterasu stacks on the target.

    The problem is during the encounter Gaara is going to refresh his sand shield 4 times (once every 25% hp), which also clears any active debuff effects, and that also includes Amaterasu stacks. Gaara has approximately 75.000 HP and 50% damage resistance... so Amaterasu will do only very little damage unless stacked for maximum effect, which in turn requires 4 or more Uchiha Characters with the highest skill level of their bloodline limit unlocked, which in turn means they are lacking those skillpoints in other areas.

    Imho its not worth it... just go with Sannins and your raid will be much more successful overall.

    I hope this helps.
    Hahahahahaha, as a League of Legends player, I understand this as a joke, but just to make sure I'm clear here, Gaara's sand shits on any defense that Jiraiya can muster, IMO.
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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by UchihaHunter
    I agree that you all aren't giving Gaara's sand the credit it deserves at this point in the manga. There's no way we can compare his Part 1 sand (which Gai blocked, and was barely able to block Kimimaro's spear attack) to his Part 2 sand, which stopped Deidara's #18, helped block Madara's meteor, blocked both Kagu-Tsuchi and Raikage's Guillotine Drop, etc.
    Actually we most certainly can. Gaara has different "stages" of sand. His gourd sand (faster than his other sand formations), and his sand combined with surrounding sand (again, slower, but more sand thus it's capable of more powerful attacks). The C3 was blocked with surrounding sand, thus it could defend against the C3. Were Gaara not blessed with enough sand, that feat would've been impossible. Raikage's leg drop was just a drop, not a melee strike combined with propulsion from bijuu-level chakra or shunshin, so it wasn't hitting half as hard as it could. If he were running full speed and performing a punch he would've plowed through that sand like it were nothing. And it's feat of blocking ANY Enton at all is only thanks to the fact that once it's surface is burned to nothingness, more sand can be pushed in it's place. For every feat his sand has produced there's a convenient condition attached to it.


    Quote Quote:
    Even speedwise, considering how quickly his sand got between Raikage/Sasuke, or even when it got between those two Alliance members who were getting into it, I highly doubt that the sand is the same speed as it was in Part 1. Gaara got better.
    Ofcourse he got better. But how much? http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/560/3

    His sand has gotten SO fast infact, that someone can dodge it without even looking at it! Talk about improvement, lmao. All jokes aside... come on. There's been feats of speed with his sand, but nothing that can't be explained away with prior prep. Gaara didn't have to mix sand to make the desert he used to block C3. Sasuke and Raikage weren't paying attention to him and were both in situations where dodging was impossible. And against Lee, he simply couldn't keep up once the weights were off. No Gates. No Suiken. Just slow sand failing to keep up with a faster ninja. Two of those things are from part 2, so ignore the first one if you'd like. But you still have to acknowledge the other two.

    Quote Quote:
    Even Lee notes in Part 1 that between the fight with him and the fight with Kimimaro, his attacks and such had gotten stronger. Hell, Gaara's dad thought that he was using the Shukaku due to how much sand was being manipulated. Gaara is freaking OP. Sensing abilities, high-class defense, high-class offense, decent analytical abilities, incredible durability IMO for someone who hadn't even been hit until Lee got to him, decent reaction times, etc. As expected of a Kage, even though he really only has one ability, like he said to Kimimaro "But with sand, I can do anything."
    Except he can't. Regardless of all the advancements in his fighting style he's still essentially a sitting duck against anyone that's faster than an average Jounin. I think people are getting confused by the largescale nature of his sand formations and not paying attention to the actual destructive force of his attacks, or the speed and evasive nature of Sasuke. And if we're bringing up what people have said in regards to Gaara's sand/strength :http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/560/13

    "If it's the same as Sasuke, external attacks won't work on him."

    Nobody knows his weaknesses greater than he does. Gaara acknowledges his inability to put a dent in Susanoo. Expecting him to do anything to a Susanoo wielding opponent without his sand being made lighter so it can move faster doesn't work. And before someone claims that Madara's Susanoo>Sasuke's, I'll point out that Madara has yet to use a fully-armed Susanoo. Sasuke has. Meaning his Susanoo has a stronger defense than the one Madara has shown. In conclusion, yes he's stronger. But not "do any damage to Susanoo" stronger.

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    At the same time, Uchiha_Blood, I think you're being obstinate on the Amaterasu point. Whether it's the focusing making the existing flames hotter or the focusing adding more flames (which...you know...still makes it hotter), the point is that focusing Amaterasu makes it more potent. I still don't think that a focused Amaterasu would burst through Gaara's sand though. Sasuke's best bet is diverting some of Gaara's attention (and thus defense) so that he can land a decisive blow, whether it's through the Susanoo arrow, Enton Matagama, Amaterasu, or Kirin.
    If a regular Enton was strong enough to push part of his sand formation back, why wouldn't a focused one do better? http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/464/12 I'll agree with you, if only because I can't prove my claim... but that's a valid point. And since his Enton Arrows pack enough concussive force to crack straight through his sand defenses unless he collects several feet worth of sand directly in front of himself.

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    Also, regarding Gaara's reaction times against fast opponents: the only time he literally couldn't react to Lee was when Lee had opened 3+ gates and was bouncing him around like a pinball...even Kakashi was shocked at Lee's speed at that point. Sasuke's speed wasn't a problem once he was able to reveal his identity as a Jinchuuriki, and it was Kimimaro's durability/power that caused problems moreso than his speed. Note that despite him being able to hang with Lee speedwise, Gaara had no problem catching him.
    Nope: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/083/3

    As for Sasuke being too much for base Gaara, Gaara's no longer a Jinchuuriki so... yeah. No regenerative properties. No godly stamina. Bringing up an advantage he doesn't have anymore doesn't mean a whole lot. And let's not forget he used his sand armor against Sasuke, and what Kankuro claims that means:http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/083/10

    As for durability, Susanoo covers that in spades since it not only makes (by Gaara's admittance) external attacks completely useless... but it gives Sasuke new offensive options.

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    Re: Gaara vs. Sasuke

    Don't really have the time to go at this entire thing, but a few responses

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Actually we most certainly can. Gaara has different "stages" of sand. His gourd sand (faster than his other sand formations), and his sand combined with surrounding sand (again, slower, but more sand thus it's capable of more powerful attacks). The C3 was blocked with surrounding sand, thus it could defend against the C3. Were Gaara not blessed with enough sand, that feat would've been impossible. Raikage's leg drop was just a drop, not a melee strike combined with propulsion from bijuu-level chakra or shunshin, so it wasn't hitting half as hard as it could. If he were running full speed and performing a punch he would've plowed through that sand like it were nothing. And it's feat of blocking ANY Enton at all is only thanks to the fact that once it's surface is burned to nothingness, more sand can be pushed in it's place. For every feat his sand has produced there's a convenient condition attached to it.
    What you're saying makes little sense. Raikage was going for a finishing blow, and Sasuke was attempting to counterstrike. You cannot diminish that feat, regardless of it not being Raikage's most powerful attack. I'm not going to sit here and diminish the defensive abilities of an incomplete Susanoo, which blocked a finisher in the Liger Bomb, solely because it was a power bomb rather than a full-speed strike. Gaara's sand has a multitude of durability feats, whether you want to accept it or not. Lee fought against Gaara when all he had at his disposal was the gourd sand. So if his sand got better between the fight with Lee and the fight with Kimimaro, am I supposed to believe the sand didn't get any better in 2 years? Deidara, who was able to dodge Sasuke's CQC strike, couldn't avoid Gaara's sand. Three former Kages were caught by his sand at the same time. It defended against the explosions of Jokey Boy, etc.

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    Ofcourse he got better. But how much? http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/560/3

    His sand has gotten SO fast infact, that someone can dodge it without even looking at it! Talk about improvement, lmao. All jokes aside... come on. There's been feats of speed with his sand, but nothing that can't be explained away with prior prep. Gaara didn't have to mix sand to make the desert he used to block C3.
    Oh. So...someone who could react to Raikage isn't fast? I didn't realize that. I also didn't realize that not being able to catch Madara after having to fight against his father, a former Kage, as well as the former Mizukage, was a negative feat as well, but meh. Raikage himself notes that Madara was able to react to his speed, I'm not ashamed by him being able to dodge anything.

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    Sasuke and Raikage weren't paying attention to him and were both in situations where dodging was impossible. And against Lee, he simply couldn't keep up once the weights were off. No Gates. No Suiken. Just slow sand failing to keep up with a faster ninja. Two of those things are from part 2, so ignore the first one if you'd like. But you still have to acknowledge the other two.
    Against Lee, it didn't matter when the weights were off because he couldn't apply any effective damage without opening the gates. If all Lee had done was taken off the weights, there was no way he would have beaten Gaara, period.

    In Part 2, he captured Deidara, who was able to react to Sasuke, who definitely got faster during the timeskip. It reacted multiple times to explosions set off at point-blank range...the sand is fast. You're talking about acknowledging something when you won't even acknowledge that his sand in Part 1 caught someone who was dodging 1000 Kyuubi-powered Naruto clones and was able to fight off against a (admittedly impaired) Lee. Part 1 Sasuke wasn't able to deal with Kyuubi-infused Naruto until he got the 3rd tomoe on his Sharingan...the sand is legit.

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    Except he can't. Regardless of all the advancements in his fighting style he's still essentially a sitting duck against anyone that's faster than an average Jounin. I think people are getting confused by the largescale nature of his sand formations and not paying attention to the actual destructive force of his attacks, or the speed and evasive nature of Sasuke. And if we're bringing up what people have said in regards to Gaara's sand/strength :http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/560/13

    "If it's the same as Sasuke, external attacks won't work on him."

    Nobody knows his weaknesses greater than he does. Gaara acknowledges his inability to put a dent in Susanoo. Expecting him to do anything to a Susanoo wielding opponent without his sand being made lighter so it can move faster doesn't work. And before someone claims that Madara's Susanoo>Sasuke's, I'll point out that Madara has yet to use a fully-armed Susanoo. Sasuke has. Meaning his Susanoo has a stronger defense than the one Madara has shown. In conclusion, yes he's stronger. But not "do any damage to Susanoo" stronger.
    I'm pretty sure no one has claimed the sand is going to overpower Susanoo. As the fight goes on and the costs of Sasuke's techniques both chakra-wise and pain-wise take hold (although we don't know if the pain completely disappeared due to EMS), the fight goes more in Gaara's favor. Like I said earlier, unless Sasuke takes out Gaara instantly, it's a fairly arduous journey. He can hide in the ground, create sand clones, has adequate defense to defend against a freaking meteor, Jokey Boy, Matagama, etc. More than Gaara outright defeating Sasuke, if Gaara were to win, it'd be a battle of attrition.

    Quote Quote:
    If a regular Enton was strong enough to push part of his sand formation back, why wouldn't a focused one do better? http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/464/12 I'll agree with you, if only because I can't prove my claim... but that's a valid point. And since his Enton Arrows pack enough concussive force to crack straight through his sand defenses unless he collects several feet worth of sand directly in front of himself.
    What force you think the arrows have is completely subjective at this point. If an exhausted Gaara was able to help block a meteor, I think he'll be alright against the Enton arrows. If I see Sasuke able to pull some sort of Licht Regen (that Ishida tech) from Bleach with his Susanoo arrows, then I'll concede that Gaara won't be able to defend against such an assault. As of now, I've seen nothing that would prevent him from defending against it. And again, remember that as the fight goes on, Gaara will be able to create more sand to use for defense and offense (although he'll be using it much more for defense with Susanoo out)

    And a couple of pages later we saw the damage that resulted from that, right? Despite Lee surprising him early on with his speed, Gaara was able to escape the Omote Renge. It was the power of Lee's moves more than the speed that was an issue for Gaara.

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    As for Sasuke being too much for base Gaara, Gaara's no longer a Jinchuuriki so... yeah.
    My point here was that once he was able to partially transform without revealing his identity, he was actually faster than Sasuke. Sasuke noted that without the Sharingan, he wouldn't have been able to deal with his speed, IIRC. But moving on...

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    No regenerative properties. No godly stamina. Bringing up an advantage he doesn't have anymore doesn't mean a whole lot. And let's not forget he used his sand armor against Sasuke, and what Kankuro claims that means:http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/083/10
    Regenerative properties were never that great to begin with, Sasuke was cutting him up fairly nicely with the Chidori's. The stamina point is pretty irrelevant, considering we saw him face off against his father, using large-scale techniques, as well as capturing the former Raikage/Mizukage, and then fighting against the Mizukage in an extended fight, AND THEN fighting against Madara, even protecting against freaking meteors, all before Tsunade showed up to heal him. Gaara's stamina is still pretty damn good.

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    As for durability, Susanoo covers that in spades since it not only makes (by Gaara's admittance) external attacks completely useless... but it gives Sasuke new offensive options.
    The point with Kimimaro was that speed wasn't an issue. Sasuke's actual body isn't anywhere close to Kimimaro's. If he gets caught by the sand, it's pretty much over.

    For Sasuke, the fight is something he wants to end as quickly as possible. For Gaara, it's much more of a waiting game. Right now I'm leaning toward Sasuke, but even that is just because he's shown on so many occasions to be able to create and take advantage of distractions to land blows. Gaara has a magnificent defense, but it'd be really hard to defend against Amaterasu, Enton Matagama, Chidori variants, etc. all at once, although, Gaara probably could hide and cause Sasuke to waste some of his techniques. This is of course contingent on Gaara surviving the initial Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Susanoo attack, whatever Sasuke chooses to do first.
    Last edited by UchihaHunter; April 17, 2012 at 11:30 PM.
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

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