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View Poll Results: Who will be the last one standing?

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  • Sage Naruto

    6 46.15%
  • Sage Kabuto

    6 46.15%
  • Sage Jiraiya

    1 7.69%
  • A double KO with the final two.

    0 0%
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Thread: Three Way Sage Battle

  1. #46
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    As been established, Shadow Clones aren't merely connected to other clones when it comes to dealing with Sage Mode, but the original user too. So if the number of clones can interfere with the gathering of natural energy by a clone, then the same should be true for the user gathering natural energy since the mechanics would be the same. If anything, it would make more sense, since the sudden halving of chakra done when creating a clone would be dangerous while the delicate balancing of energies is going on.
    But jiraiya is not gathering narutal energy, ma and pa are doing it for him. Ma and pa won't be affected by jiraiya making as many clones as he pleases and jiraiya clearly does not have to concentrate to receive natural energy from ma and pa as such a thing would actually not allow him to fight and altogether beat the purpose of fusing with ma and pa. The mechanics of jiraiya gathering natural energy are plainly not the same as with naruto. Even then, the scenario you propose involves that ma and pa are constantly giving jiraiya natural energy while that is clearly not the case as such a thing would imply ma and pa should not be able to move which would prevent them from using techniques themselves and even talking.

    ---------- Post added at 12:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gats View Post
    IMO a successful hit of FRS should be able kill Kabuto seeing how it's attacking the cells. Him changing shape and all shouldn't protect him against that chirurgical level of attack. The thing is, thanks to Kabuto's strategy, no one is supposed to kill him before forcing him to release the ET. Jiraiya sure has a great genjutsu but nothing that should allow him to order Kabuto to end the ET.


    If Kabuto's opponents don't care about ET and decide to take care of that later it's another story. Besides I don't think Kabuto could swim without dying in a sea of special lava made by Jiraiya+Pa/Ma. But that doesn't prevent him to summon Deidara to fly away.
    It depends though. If kabuto's cells actually turn into liquid too then making a milk shake out of him with FRS would not actually kill him. Also, jiraiya does not use lava, he uses wind, oil and fire. High temperatures would IMO hurt kabuto however it is worth noting that he should not be more vulnerable than anyone else to it.

  2. #47
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    But jiraiya is not gathering narutal energy, ma and pa are doing it for him. Ma and pa won't be affected by jiraiya making as many clones as he pleases and jiraiya clearly does not have to concentrate to receive natural energy from ma and pa as such a thing would actually not allow him to fight and altogether beat the purpose of fusing with ma and pa. The mechanics of jiraiya gathering natural energy are plainly not the same as with naruto. Even then, the scenario you propose involves that ma and pa are constantly giving jiraiya natural energy while that is clearly not the case as such a thing would imply ma and pa should not be able to move which would prevent them from using techniques themselves and even talking.
    Ma and Pa may be the ones gathering the energy, but they're sending it directing into Jiraiya's chakra system, so it is similar to how Naruto get's a refill from his clones. Considering what Pa told Naruto about the split role when he was describing the weakness of Sage Mode in battle, they were at the very least nearly constantly granting Jiraiya natural energy. Since Sage Mode requires a precise balance, a sudden halving of one side would be dangerous in the middle of battle.

  3. #48
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    If using KB was as dangerous as you said then using KB at all during sage mode would be plain stupid which is not the case. The explanation of the fusing does not suggest ma and pa have to constantly give energy either, they simply say they take care of the not moving part and concentrating of gathering natural energy. More so, if whats makes you think using KB would be in itself dangerous? When a sage uses KB the clone is in sage mode too. In that regard, it is quite clear sage chakra also gets evenly distributed among clones otherwise clones made by a sage would not be in sage mode nor would they be able to use sage techniques. The manga never even hinted at such a danger of using shadow clones either, it simply explicitly stated that naruto using more than 2 or 3 clones during the fight would interfere with the clones currently gathering chakra out of which the only logical inference is that they for some reason will have trouble gathering energy.

  4. #49
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Naruto has been pulling off taju kage bushin since a few seconds after he learned kage bushin, we saw that when he defeated that rogue teacher in the first chapter. He did not need 4 years of continuous training to be able to use TKB. You don't need skill to create an army of clones, you need solely a butload of chakra.
    For all we know, all those KB did was punch the guy and then disappear.
    And yes, you do need skill, since it is still an A rank jutsu. Skill is required to actually make those clones durable, again Kakashi did that bluff on the bridge, those were Kage Bushins, yet would've they be able to attack? I doubt so.
    If Jiraiya could've used tons of clones he would've do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    If using KB was as dangerous as you said then using KB at all during sage mode would be plain stupid which is not the case. The explanation of the fusing does not suggest ma and pa have to constantly give energy either, they simply say they take care of the not moving part and concentrating of gathering natural energy. More so, if whats makes you think using KB would be in itself dangerous? When a sage uses KB the clone is in sage mode too. In that regard, it is quite clear sage chakra also gets evenly distributed among clones otherwise clones made by a sage would not be in sage mode nor would they be able to use sage techniques. The manga never even hinted at such a danger of using shadow clones either, it simply explicitly stated that naruto using more than 2 or 3 clones during the fight would interfere with the clones currently gathering chakra out of which the only logical inference is that they for some reason will have trouble gathering energy.
    for Jiraiya it could be dangerous since with KB he wouldn't have Ma and Pa to regulate the flow of Nature chakra, or supply him with it, making those clones close to useless. We don't know if or for how much Jiraiya can handle Sage Mode without Ma and Pa, since, countrary to Naruto, he never had a giant fuzzy demon fox on his gut that rejected Ma and Pa, so he didn't need to train with it to lenghten his durability

  5. #50
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    I can give you hypothesis as yo why but how relevant would that be? For one what if he can't concentrate on them (like Naruto using more then 3 when he has other getting energy?) because his SM is imperfect and he can barely keep the conection going from him to Ma/Pa and using clones would mess him up. We don't know what senjutsu chakra does to your body and perhaps JMan using more clones with his imperfect SM would be a problem, expecialy asuming he can use huge rasengans with them... I can give you a lot of "why" but in the end is just fanfic.
    Naruto is the one who's concentrating on gathering the Natural Energy and balancing it. Jiraiya doesn't have to concentrate on gathering the Natural Energy, he can just balance what chakra he got from the original. I don't see how it'd be a problem since there'd be less SM chakra or Natural Energy in the clone, so there shouldn't be any risk of petrification, just turning back to normal.

    Huge rasengan uses Sage Chakra. If Jiraiya uses it, he'll lose Sage Chakra and be one step closer to going back to Sage Mode. It's like when Naruto used FRS, he used up too much Sage Chakra.

    Quote Quote:
    What if he does not have the senjutsu capacity to do so? So i know he has the ability to create A clone, can he do more then 1? Can he fight like that? Can he spam them? Can he use huge rasengans with them? I need evidence sry. In this entire Manga only Naruto was showed to fight like that and now Madara as he has those special wood clones. The others only used them as distractions, traps (like Kisame) and so on.
    Why wouldn't he? He showed no signs of being low on Sage chakra when he did a bunshin, both (or just the bunshin) even did a fire attack. Doesn't look like insufficient chakra would be a problem, nor balancing it since the clone didn't look any different. Making too many bunshins could cause some bunshins to go back to base mode, but we don't know how many is too many.

    You don't have evidence that Jiraiya can't do multiple bunshins in Sage Mode either. If Naruto can do it, why can't Jiraiya? Naruto actually had no help, Jiraiya does.

    Hiruzen used the bunshins to seal away the two hokage's souls. Apparently bunshins can be used for fighting, but it depends on its users. Naruto and Madara used it for fighting, Kisame and Zabuza use it to trap their enemies if they need to, and Itachi uses it to distract or take out his enemies quickly.

    Quote Quote:
    So, you belive he can create them on that number? Provide evidence as he has NEVER done it. If none is provided and you keep going with it i can asume Naruto can do Rasengan with 1 hand as JMan can do it and its the same tech right? Hell Naruto knew how to summon but he could not do it right and those little frogs poped up. Even SM is the same jutsu as Naruto's but JMan can't do it right even with Ma/Pa there... So again just because its the same jutsus it does not mean he can use it to the same level. Now if there is no evidence i will be ignoring it. Naruto's usage with multiple clones is something unique to him. Its the most unique thing in this manga (probably). We know that the same jutsus works diferently for multiple people. Even MS genjutsu and Amaterasu EVEN IF they are the same jutsu. So asuming JMan can do the same thing with SC jutsu as Naruto is absurd considering there is absolutly no evidence of it. Only 1 clone and as a short distraction, nothing more.
    We've seen Naruto not be able to make rasengan with one hand, and himself admit he couldn't do it. That comparison doesn't work. We have never seen any indication about the amount of SM bunshins Jiraiya can do in SM, so no one is right or wrong so far. I don't see how it's absurd when we saw Jiraiya do a kage bunshin that looked like him, who was able to do a fire attack.

    Jiraiya doesn't have to do 100 bunshins like Naruto can, 5 or 10 can work.

    Quote Quote:
    So asumin JMan can create multiple clones, with huge rasengan(and other SM jutsus) and keep spaming them is just that, an asumtion.
    Lot of things in fights are assumptions. We make it based on what we've seen from the fighters. Although we haven't seen Jiraiya do more than one kage bunshin, we did see him do a kage bunshin that looked like him, do a ninjutsu.


    Naruto's uniqueness comes from how he uses his bunshins, not from his ability to make lots of it. Anyone with enough chakra can do that. Kakashi was able to do at least 5 against those mercenaries in the first arc, Hiruzen was able to do two in his old age, and Kisame was able to do three. Only Naruto and Kisame have the chakra to spam bunshins, but Naruto is able to do use it creatively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Saying that Jiraiya can make 100 clones in Sage Mode only because he knows the jutsu and has the reserve is like saying that he can make a Doton or Katon rasengan because he knows the jutsu and has the element.
    It is a matter of skill, nobody except Naruto and Madara ( so Hashirama probably ) never ever was hinted to be able to make more than one or two clones to act as decoys, even if they don't lack in chakra capacity like SM Jiraiya did.
    It isn't simply that easy, and Naruto can pull it off since he used Kage Bushin continuosly for, like, 4 years
    He doesn't need to do 100, though. Three or five can work.

    And once again, hints don't matter. Jiraiya was never hinted to know kage bunshin, but he knew it. Hiruzen was said to have low chakra and not be able to afford using kage bunshin, but he made two kage bunshins. It doesn't take perfect chakra control to do a bunshin, but it takes a lot of chakra to do multiple kage bunshins. Still doesn't prove me wrong.

    Naruto used tajuu kage bunshin less than a day after mastering it, so it doesn't take years, just chakra and knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    @xXan and M3J,

    Yea, I was basing most of my arguments from memory so the details are a little off. But the point is that Jiraiya failed to show any signs of having spider sage sense, or at least no where near the level of Kabuto and Naruto. Asura Pain was able to completely sneak up on him, and I can't see how that can happen if he did have sage sense. Its an inconsistency created by Kishi because its a newly introduced power and I can't give Jiraiya new sage abilities every time Kishi introduces them for somebody else. He has to show he can have them first. Sage mode is simply learning how to absorb and use natural energy. All the senjutsus, sage sense, etc. are learned skills. Perhaps Jiraiya simply did not learn sage sense or adapted to it yet, but he failed to show that he has it.
    Maybe the sage sense has to be activated or needs concentration to be used. Naruto didn't even notice Hungry Path coming back to life when he was in Sage Mode, so it's not an automatic thing.

    Though Jiraiya hasn't shown it, it can still be assumed he has the ability (or that he doesn't), unless the manga states that sensing is an automatic ability. It'd be contradictory since Naruto, who was able to sense Kakashi's chakra missing from the village, wasn't able to sense Hungry Ghost.

  6. #51
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    For all we know jiraiya went through pretty much the same training as naruto when it came to gathering natural energy. If anything, learning how to gather natural energy on his own is a prerequisite for him to be able to fuse with ma and pa. I don't think we should assume that on his own he would last significantly less than naruto in that regard. And why would the clones be useless? Granted, their sage mode would not last as long due to the sage chakra being split however in most cases there is no need for clones to last that long. In a worst case scenario, if their sage mode lasts at least a few minutes and they are able to use techniques (which is not unreasonable at all considering jiraiya is indeed a very high chakra capacity ninja) they would be extremely useful. Even without sage mode jiraiya is still absurdly skiled, such a clone can never be useless lol.

  7. #52
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    @M3J

    The hard part is not to draw it in. Its balancing it. Naruto's clones where in battery mode. Also JMan's problem was with this balancing not the drawing in part:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/410/17

    You also need insane amounths of chakra to do it:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/412/11

    JMan separting his chakra into bits is going to be a big problem when he needs to balance the natural energy coming from Ma/Pa.

    Now of coruse you still failled to give me any evidence of it. JMan going from 1 clone to multiple clone needs some evidence. 1 clone for Naruto is enough to restore him to SM:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/433/9

    As this dude here explains it focusing sage chakra is not easy:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/434/13

    So Naruto could do that from 2 clones at the same time and was limited to 3 clones. JMan doing that from 1 place (himself in battle as Ma/Pa feeds him chakra) would defenetly be limited to 6 clones even if he could do it on Naruto's level. Naruto is curently somehow getting huge amounts of chakra and then balancing it and this makes sense as his chakra supply is out of this world (for obvious reasons). Now take into account JMan's problem(imperfect SM from his balancing) and you decrese that number even more as his chakra balancing was worse then Naruto's. So even IF we asume he can do that he probably can't do more then let's say 4 or so. Still going to need evidence that JMan can split his chakra 4 ways and stay in SM and use huge rasengans as him balacing all that crep out is going to be an insane chalange. Also need feats from him actualy fighting with clones. Naruto is a master with tactics like that and those where developed in time. JMan could just trow away chakra trying to fight like that, something like Naruto vs Kimimaro.

    The problem is not creating the clones. Is create them in SM, fighting with them on Naruto's level and having the ability to spam them like Naruto. If Jman can't spam them its not going to help him at all. 3 clones are going to counter 3 Naruto's clones at best and then he get's overwhelmed by the rest of 90+ clones. He sure as hell is not going to have time to do more clones. Also using Ultimate Rasengan with all the clones and himself is going to be another point to be proven as JMan could run out of chakra.

    Also i don't need evidence that JMan can't do it, you need to provide evidence that JMan CAN do it.

    The rasengan and other types of jutsus where used to show you that diferent techs work diferently for people. Just because JMan can do it does not mean he actualy can do it on Naruto's level.

    PS. The only helping hand Ma/Pa gives is feeding him raw natural chakra so he does not need to move. The hard part that those clones are doing in the form of balancing is still there as much as it is for Naruto, the frogs just remove the need to sit still.
    Last edited by xXan; April 18, 2012 at 01:37 AM.

  8. #53
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He doesn't need to do 100, though. Three or five can work.

    And once again, hints don't matter. Jiraiya was never hinted to know kage bunshin, but he knew it. Hiruzen was said to have low chakra and not be able to afford using kage bunshin, but he made two kage bunshins. It doesn't take perfect chakra control to do a bunshin, but it takes a lot of chakra to do multiple kage bunshins. Still doesn't prove me wrong.

    Naruto used tajuu kage bunshin less than a day after mastering it, so it doesn't take years, just chakra and knowledge.
    How? Kabuto has Muki Tensei that can make all his clones explode by transforming the field, Naruto clones > Jiraiya clones, say Jiraiya makes 5, or even 10 clones, and Naruto does 100.
    Who wins?

    Hizuren wasn't supposed to do KB since not because he had little stamina, not only at least, but also because due to his elder age he risked doing Kage Bushins and lose control of the jutsu, thus wasting 2/3 of his chakra.
    Which, with his stamina, would be suicidal, expecially against Oro.

    Already explained to kkck, for all we know all those clones did was punch the guy and disappear.
    Good luck on beating 100 clones of Naruto and Kabuto with a punch lol.
    More so that since Naruto mastered Frog Fu and Kabuto has his annoying scalpels, hand-to-hand they are imho superior to Jiraiya.
    We saw also with the manga progressing that Naruto mastery over Kage Bushins improved exponentially, that is a fact. And arguing that Naruto learned the jutsu in some hours isn't a proof that the jutsu is easy, is a proof that Naruto learns quickly when he is focused.
    Proven by the fact that he learned the Rasengan in, like, 2 weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    For all we know jiraiya went through pretty much the same training as naruto when it came to gathering natural energy. If anything, learning how to gather natural energy on his own is a prerequisite for him to be able to fuse with ma and pa. I don't think we should assume that on his own he would last significantly less than naruto in that regard. And why would the clones be useless? Granted, their sage mode would not last as long due to the sage chakra being split however in most cases there is no need for clones to last that long. In a worst case scenario, if their sage mode lasts at least a few minutes and they are able to use techniques (which is not unreasonable at all considering jiraiya is indeed a very high chakra capacity ninja) they would be extremely useful. Even without sage mode jiraiya is still absurdly skiled, such a clone can never be useless lol.
    What you forget is that, countrary to Naruto and Kabuto, Jiraiya wasn't a perfect sage.
    He never had the mastery Naruto has with Sage Mode, and Fukusaku commented on that. In a normal scenario no, they wouldn't be useless, they are against Kabuto and Naruto, that can nullify them easily.
    Simple as that

  9. #54
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    If using KB was as dangerous as you said then using KB at all during sage mode would be plain stupid which is not the case. The explanation of the fusing does not suggest ma and pa have to constantly give energy either, they simply say they take care of the not moving part and concentrating of gathering natural energy. More so, if whats makes you think using KB would be in itself dangerous? When a sage uses KB the clone is in sage mode too. In that regard, it is quite clear sage chakra also gets evenly distributed among clones otherwise clones made by a sage would not be in sage mode nor would they be able to use sage techniques. The manga never even hinted at such a danger of using shadow clones either, it simply explicitly stated that naruto using more than 2 or 3 clones during the fight would interfere with the clones currently gathering chakra out of which the only logical inference is that they for some reason will have trouble gathering energy.
    Multiple Shadow Clones have always been dangerous. We were told that long ago in Part One. Anyway, it does suggest a semi-constant refill, since the fact that he needs Ma and Pa implies Jiraiya's Sage Mode last shorter then Naruto's, which was around five minutes and he needs them to keep him in it. And this goes back to them having to keep track of the balance, since Jiraiya's Sage Mode doesn't normally last that long, when he reaches the point where he'll fall out of it and they need to refill him, they'll have to make sure the amount their using is proportional to his current halved amount.

  10. #55
    The Green Knight MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Gats's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    It depends though. If kabuto's cells actually turn into liquid too then making a milk shake out of him with FRS would not actually kill him. Also, jiraiya does not use lava, he uses wind, oil and fire. High temperatures would IMO hurt kabuto however it is worth noting that he should not be more vulnerable than anyone else to it.
    Lava is just metaphoric, I just don't remember the name of the jutsu. Besides I doubt Kabuto can turn himself into something totally different from what keeps him living, same as Suigetsu. He has to reshape after all, so there is definitively a special link between those cells which FRS can possibly cut.

  11. #56
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Multiple Shadow Clones have always been dangerous. We were told that long ago in Part One. Anyway, it does suggest a semi-constant refill, since the fact that he needs Ma and Pa implies Jiraiya's Sage Mode last shorter then Naruto's, which was around five minutes and he needs them to keep him in it. And this goes back to them having to keep track of the balance, since Jiraiya's Sage Mode doesn't normally last that long, when he reaches the point where he'll fall out of it and they need to refill him, they'll have to make sure the amount their using is proportional to his current halved amount.
    We have no evidence whatsoever that jiraiya's sage mode lasted more or less than narutos. All we know is that naruto balanced it a little better because he did not turn very froglike when he did it. We have no evidence to suggest said imbalance would have an effect on how long he could remain in sage mode. With ma and pa it would not even matter how long he can hold the technique as the two of them would take care of it one way or another. And why would they have to keep track of the balance? Since when is this an issue? Naruto literally had two clones showering in the toad old, which incidentally forces natural energy in whether you like it or not, and he still did not turn to a frog. Even if it was relevant, there is no evidence whatsoever that ma and pa do any regulating at all, that is all jiraiya.

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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    This would be an interesting battle, but I believe Naruto has more chances to win because
    *He has the greatest stamina and chakra, thus he can endure
    *He is no doubt, the best Shadowclone user in the manga
    *He is a perfect sage

    He is imo fitting for this match because of these reasons.

    Kabuto won't have the luxury imo to even call out EDO because these two (especially Jiraiya) have strange techs that can instantaneously trap Kabuto.
    I.e http://www.mangareader.net/93-386-1/...apter-381.html

  13. #58
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    It depends if JMan can get the "frog song" genjutsu on or not. If he does not i will go with Naruto as a huge Rasengan in SM would defenetly do damage to Kabuto even in water mode. The bijudama from Bee left Suigetsu KO'ed and that was an attack that was spread out and not like a rasengan that would focus mose of it attack in a smaller area. Rasengan = Bijudama only smaller. So a few of those and Kabuto is out.

    Hard fight but i think Naruto can pull a win. Oh end i am ignoring the ET zombies from the OP as it would be to much of a headache to account for all possible ET that Kabuto could pop. Also Naruto and JMan don't have any practical sealing jutsus so yeah...

  14. #59
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    We have no evidence whatsoever that jiraiya's sage mode lasted more or less than narutos. All we know is that naruto balanced it a little better because he did not turn very froglike when he did it. We have no evidence to suggest said imbalance would have an effect on how long he could remain in sage mode. With ma and pa it would not even matter how long he can hold the technique as the two of them would take care of it one way or another. And why would they have to keep track of the balance? Since when is this an issue? Naruto literally had two clones showering in the toad old, which incidentally forces natural energy in whether you like it or not, and he still did not turn to a frog. Even if it was relevant, there is no evidence whatsoever that ma and pa do any regulating at all, that is all jiraiya.
    Logically, it should last shorter, thus explaining why he needs Ma and Pa. If it lasted longer then five minutes, then he could have fought and ended the battle before it ran out. And they would have to keep track of the balance since they were the ones dumping the natural energy into Jiraiya's system. They would have to know how much to gather in order to actually achieve the balance. And Naruto had Pa right there hitting him and his clones out of it the moment they began to change.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity warbandit66's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Jiraiya possesses a plethora of unique hair based techniques all of which are very versatile, I can't see how Naruto and Kabuto are supposed to combat them... His hair are the best.
    Jiraiya: His hair are the best

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