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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
THough, I'm not sure if Jiraiya could sense or not. Maybe he had to focus to sense?
Naruto mastered the Sage Mode to Perfection, but he did not have time to learn how to use all those techniques.
Naruto may become faster, stronger and more sensiteve than Jiraiya, thanks to his Perfect Sage mode, but Jiraiya learned plennty of Skills, which makes him deadlier in Sage mode than Naruto
Yes Jiraiya could sense too, but overall his abilities seems to be lower than Naruto.
PS. I am sure JMan could also sense like that. He just never showed it. His body was infused with SM energy so his senses where enhanced for sure, he had the speed and power so he should have the increased senses to.
Huge rasengan is useless if it doesn't hit. Jiraiya can counter it with his own rasengan, or Kabuto can sabotage Naruto's attempt to take out Jiraiya somehow.
As seen with Naruto, maybe Jiraiya has to focus to be able to use the sensing abilities. Naruto was still whenever he was sensing, and he wasn't able to sense Hungry Path returning to the fight. Jiraiya most likely would have to concentrate, and in that battle he assumed he had no reason to use sensory abilities.
Here they have no idea where it is:
Now you could be right that JMan can't sense it but there is no indication normal SM sensing mode can detect it so you can't use this as a valid comparison as it is a highly debated event.
Naruto himself was unable to sense Pein:
He has no idea that Pein was back to life. He belived he was dead. Same thing for JMan, he had no idea more where there to be detected. If this was a constant thing Naruto himself would know that Pein poped back to life right?
Now what was it there to sense about that missle? It blew in his face from point blank range, i don't even know if it was one(a missle or some other attack). It was shoot from his front after JMan already noticed robot guy.
The 2 elder dudes even state what is his problem with SM, he just can't use it alone but as long as they help out its just as good:
Well at least that is how i interpret that stuff.
So em you are going to have to do better then this :P
As i said, one has versatility and the other raw power.Quote:
Well i don't know. Naruto could defenetly trick him and he himself is very fast in SM. To asume Naruto can't land a FRS when he can have multiple clones about its not going to work in my book. JMan is going to fight up to 100 Naruto's in SM. He can't dodge them all.Quote:
If he get's hit ... Yeah not but he can use a huge rasengan right in front as a shield. He would also have multiple clones about so JMan would have to pick targets and as he shoots in front as some targets other would attack him front the back with huge Rasengans.Quote:
Itachi himself can't survive a normal rasengan from JMan if he get's hit but hitting him is another thing :P
Probably but JMan would have multiple targets to pick from.Quote:
Perhaps, i can't argue with this. JMan himself was showed to be really fast getting behind Pein's back multiple times. But its hard to judge.Quote:
JMan can't conter this:Quote:
He can block 1,2 but how many? He is getting hit eventualy. Also yes i am aware Kyuubi is a bigger target but Naruto would just go from 4 sides and even if Jman takes even 10 of them down he would get overwhelmed eventually. Naruto does have fewer weapons to work with but he has enough.
Also i was refering to Naruto vs Jman with no Kabuto :P
Jiraiya can counter bunshins with his own bunshins as well. Thanks to Sage Mode, he can make as much bunshins as Naruto and can fight back with rasengan, it'd take him less time to do it than it would Naruto.
I know, but I didn't wanna focus on just Naruto vs. Jiraiya.
There is a point why JMan or anybody else (aside Madara...) is no using mass clones like that. That is Naruto's thing.
So again if you can't show me JMan doing that then i can't accept it. The only real thing you have is him using 1 as distraction. Having JMan using a great number of clones all with huge Rasengans when he never showed anything close to that is a big no, no for me. So yeah lets have them using jutsus on the magnitude they showed in the manga.
I can't give him anything above what he showed in the manga. Having himself and some 3 clones would have owned Pein so why not do it? Have himself go for the absorbing Pein and his clones for the rest of the realms with Rasengan. BAM instant win. But he never done that. Why? Its Naruto's thing.
Last edited by xXan; April 16, 2012 at 02:58 PM.
Jiraiya has used kage bunshin twice, in flashback against Nagato and against Pain near hte end of his fight with the three bodies. It's not unreasonable to think he can do more than one bunshins since even Kakashi was able to do it. In fact, everyone that has used bunshins were able to do multiple bunshins, whether mizu or kage. Naruto isn't technically famous for bunshins but how he uses bunshins, like in his fight against Kiba or against Kakuzu. naruto uses it pretty cleverly.
Why wouldn't Jiraiya be able to do that? Just because it's Naruto's thing doesn't mean Jiraiya's unable. The reason WHY it's Naruto's thing is because he has the chakra to use that many bunshins. Although Naruto would win the amount of bunshins contest, Jiraiya should theoretically be able to do the same. People like Kakashi and Itachi can't due to their low chakra, but JIraiya has been said to have high chakra amount.
He hasn't had a need to use that many bunshins though. Or the opportunity.
What ppl fails to realize is that no one, apart Naruto and now Madara thanks to Hashirama's DNA, can make more than one Kage Bushin ( Madara had to make Mokuton ones ).
Not only that, but all of Jiraiya's supposed clones wouldn't have Ma and Pa, thus they would lose control of the Nature energy or return in base.
As for the Jiraiya > Naruto as sages, Naruto has showed better durability, power, speed ( debatable ) and sensing abilities. While Jiraiya has the upper hand in versatility, Naruto has the upper hand in everything else.
What does versatility means if someone can make, say, 100 Oodama Rasengans, like he did against Kyuubi?
I know, I know, Jiraiya has his hair, but still!
And if you say "but Naruto clones aren't durable!" Please remember than one, single, measly clone offed the Third Raikage, contribute to seal half of Muu, and almost destroyed Madara if he wouldn't have pulled off his Rin'negan randomly.
The Muu part was thanks to RM, but the other two were Sage mode only
Naruto clones didn't get hit though. Jiraiya has a chance of hitting the clone with his speed, and with Kabuto there despite him being both their enemy.
Though not Itachi (to avoid wasting chakra), we've seen Kisame and Kakashi make at least two bunshins. Zabuza didn't need to make more than one since Kakashi was the only dangerous enemy. It is possible for anyone to make multiple kage bunshins as long as they have the chakra to do so. I see no reason why Jiraiya can't do the same with his massive chakra reserves. Doubt they'd lose control since Jiraiya can apparently balance Natural Energy, just not as well as Naruto can. Maa and Paa keeps him in Sage Mode.
Jiraiya can use his Swamp of the Underworld to prevent Naruto or Kabuto from moving and then whack them with his rasengan. He can unleash Frog Song as well.
Kisame did Mizu Bushin, which is far from being compared to Kage Bushin, while the only time Kakashi did more than one KB was simply a bluff, on the Naruto bridge.
And exactly, he didn't get hit. Because the opponent spared him? No, because it avoided the attack, and acted accordingly.
And still it remains to be seen how good is his control, it could even get dangerous since, if he can't control Nature energy as perfectly as Naruto can, sudden disturbance in the chakra that KB provides ( as showed in the Pein fight, when Naruto couldn't do more than 3 KB ) would prove to be dangerous for him.
The swamp can be countered by Naruto simply by ammassing clones to create a chain that would get him the hell out of there, while Kabuto could do the same with his overly long belly-snake.
And Jiraiya can't do it because apparently Naruto's control with KB is something more unique than rare, remember when Kakashi explained Naruto's training method? When Naruto said that Kakashi used that method to train he said that he couldn't even hold a single KB as long as Naruto does with his hundreds, and while Kakashi is no chakra monster he has solid reserves, above average for sure.
Spamming KB simply isn't that simple, otherwise Jiraiya would've do it against Pein, don't you think? Even then, he used a single KB
KB is limited solely by chakra, people with low chakra capacity should altogether not use them. Jiraiya has been stated by the manga to be a high chakra capacity ninja, there is no reason for him to not be able to use as many as he would need (he is an accomplished ninja with a myriad of techniques and actual finesse to what he does, I doubt he would actually need an army of clones). Also, kakashi never said that he would not be able to hold a single KB as long as naruto holds hundreds, ever. He simply said he does not have the chakra to use KB to train.
Also, KB does not cause a disturbance of chakra, just a severe waste of it. Naruto could not do more than a few of them because it would disrupt the concentration of the clones gathering natural energy elsewhere. One naruto had no more clones gathering energy there was no reason for him to not do taju kage bushin (except perhaps that distributing his natural energy among dozens, hundreds or thousands of clones would likely result in it ending faster).
I figured that from what we saw from Naruto, while in Sage Mode Jiraiya wouldn't be capable of making more then a couple of clones due to the toads gathering natural energy at the time.
Mizu Bunshin is still bunshin even if the element is different. Both require a lot of chakra.
Doubt it, as the problem with using more than three kage bunshins was that it'd interrupt the other clones gathering Natural Energy. Naruto can make tons of clones in Sage Mode, but not while he has few clones gathering Natural Energy.Quote:
Jiraiya was able to do a kage bunshin without a problem against Pain, I see no reason why he can't do multiple kage bunshins. Even his kage bunshin was in Sage Mode without Ma and Pa.
How can Naruto do that? He'd have to create a chain where the end eventually touches the ground pretty quickly and pull. Jiraiya can just extend the Swamp.Quote:
Naruto's prowess with his kage bunshin isn't because of his control, otherwise it wouldn't disappear so easily. Hiruzen's bunshins didn't disappear when it got hit, and Itachi was able to do crow bunshins. Naruto's prowess is how he uses his kage bunshins. That, more than anything, will be what gives him the edge over Jiraiya.Quote:
Kakashi didn't say that. If I recall, he said he didn't have enough chakra to train the way Naruto does. Kakashi doesn't have above average reserve, and he's said Naruto has at least 4x the chakra that he does.
Why would he spam kage bunshin? That's a waste of chakra, and it wouldn't have helped. Jiraiya has other techniques to deal with Pain, Naruto didn't.