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Thread: Three Way Sage Battle

  1. #31
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    To be honest I don't see why jiraiya would be limited in his clone usage (not that spamming those is something he would do normally). The clones would indeed not be capable of gathering natural energy as the clones are of jiraiya, not ma and pa however that only means jiraiya distributes his available natural energy among them. The only limitation I could see in that regard is that if he makes too many clones they might not have enough natural energy for them to remain in said sage mode. In any other aspect, having ma and pa gathering natural energy should actually increase his clone making capacity as natural energy helps replenish his stamina.

    ---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------

    Quote Quote:
    Mizu Bunshin is still bunshin even if the element is different. Both require a lot of chakra.
    I would argue mizu bushin and kage bushin are not actually comparable in any form. Kage bushin is an actual copy of the person with the capacity to make decisions, use ninjutsu and whatnot. An element bushin simply looks like the original but has no mind of its own (except perhaps mokuton clones but even then they should be more limited than KB) and is limited to the element it is made of.

  2. #32
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    To be honest I don't see why jiraiya would be limited in his clone usage (not that spamming those is something he would do normally). The clones would indeed not be capable of gathering natural energy as the clones are of jiraiya, not ma and pa however that only means jiraiya distributes his available natural energy among them. The only limitation I could see in that regard is that if he makes too many clones they might not have enough natural energy for them to remain in said sage mode. In any other aspect, having ma and pa gathering natural energy should actually increase his clone making capacity as natural energy helps replenish his stamina.
    Only the three clones Naruto left behind were busy gathering natural energy, but he was still limited to a set amount of clones while they were occupied. He wasn't at all involved in the gathering of natural energy, yet he was still bound by the limits. So Jiraiya should also be bound by those limits, even if his clones aren't gathering the natural energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I would argue mizu bushin and kage bushin are not actually comparable in any form. Kage bushin is an actual copy of the person with the capacity to make decisions, use ninjutsu and whatnot. An element bushin simply looks like the original but has no mind of its own (except perhaps mokuton clones but even then they should be more limited than KB) and is limited to the element it is made of.
    Water clones, Lightning clones, Crow clones, Wood clones, we've seen them all make decisions and act on their own in battle along with being able to attack with ninjutsus. The only clear difference between the clone variations are the amount of chakra and unique abilities they possess, with Shadow Clones seemingly costing the most but being able to remotely grant the user their knowledge.

  3. #33
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Skidmore's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/499/7
    He can block 1,2 but how many? He is getting hit eventualy. Also yes i am aware Kyuubi is a bigger target but Naruto would just go from 4 sides and even if Jman takes even 10 of them down he would get overwhelmed eventually. Naruto does have fewer weapons to work with but he has enough.
    Also i was refering to Naruto vs Jman with no Kabuto :P
    A Little bit off-topic, but it stills amaze me how powerfull is the Kyuubi, It Took a 100 rasengans, a Rasenshuriken, lost its chakra, still managed to do a Genki Dama, and it's only half sealed inside Naruto.

  4. #34
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Only the three clones Naruto left behind were busy gathering natural energy, but he was still limited to a set amount of clones while they were occupied. He wasn't at all involved in the gathering of natural energy, yet he was still bound by the limits. So Jiraiya should also be bound by those limits, even if his clones aren't gathering the natural energy.

    Water clones, Lightning clones, Crow clones, Wood clones, we've seen them all make decisions and act on their own in battle along with being able to attack with ninjutsus. The only clear difference between the clone variations are the amount of chakra and unique abilities they possess, with Shadow Clones seemingly costing the most but being able to remotely grant the user their knowledge.
    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-434-page-14.html
    The clones are actually connected, the reason naruto cannot use more than 3 clones while they are gathering sage chakra is that it would interfere with them gathering said chakra, that is unquestionable manga fact. If there are no clones gathering chakra then there is not a shred of evidence to even vaguely suggest there would be a limit to how many clones naruto can make (unless of course the amount of sage chakra he has is evenly distributed between clones and they have so little left they can't maintain sage mode however that is not what you guys are saying nor what is being discussed ).

    There has never been any evidence that any type of clone other than shadow clones act on their own though, the manga has only mentioned shadow clones doing that. As far as the manga has shown, all of the other types of clones have to be directly controlled (somehow).

  5. #35
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-434-page-14.html
    The clones are actually connected, the reason naruto cannot use more than 3 clones while they are gathering sage chakra is that it would interfere with them gathering said chakra, that is unquestionable manga fact. If there are no clones gathering chakra then there is not a shred of evidence to even vaguely suggest there would be a limit to how many clones naruto can make (unless of course the amount of sage chakra he has is evenly distributed between clones and they have so little left they can't maintain sage mode however that is not what you guys are saying nor what is being discussed ).
    That's my point. We know that gathering natural energy limits the number of clones while it's being done. Since Ma and Pa are consistently gathering it for Jiraiya, that should mean he's limited the same way as Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    There has never been any evidence that any type of clone other than shadow clones act on their own though, the manga has only mentioned shadow clones doing that. As far as the manga has shown, all of the other types of clones have to be directly controlled (somehow).
    We saw a Wood clone go after Naruto and then go on to trail Orochimaru back to his base, we saw Itachi send two different Crow clones to meet up with both Naruto to give him Shisui's eye and Sasuke to inform him where their final battle would be, and we saw a Lightning clone plan and figure out Deva Path's ability before being defeated. Those aren't situations where they could have been guided by the user. We've also seen the Water clone, Lightning clone, and Wood clone having independent thoughts. So Shadow Clones aren't the only ones who could act upon their own.

  6. #36
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    He shouldn't be limited though because someone else is gathering the Energy for him. With Naruto, it was still himself gathering the energy. Based on that, it should be possible for Jiraiya to do multiple bunshins. Plus, Ma and Pa might not be continuously gathering Natural Energy, just when Jiraiya needs it.

  7. #37
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    That's my point. We know that gathering natural energy limits the number of clones while it's being done. Since Ma and Pa are consistently gathering it for Jiraiya, that should mean he's limited the same way as Naruto.

    We saw a Wood clone go after Naruto and then go on to trail Orochimaru back to his base, we saw Itachi send two different Crow clones to meet up with both Naruto to give him Shisui's eye and Sasuke to inform him where their final battle would be, and we saw a Lightning clone plan and figure out Deva Path's ability before being defeated. Those aren't situations where they could have been guided by the user. We've also seen the Water clone, Lightning clone, and Wood clone having independent thoughts. So Shadow Clones aren't the only ones who could act upon their own.
    That does not even begin to make sense. Naruto specifically said that creating clones would interfere with the ones gathering natural energy. In what context would this ever be even mildly relevant to jiraiya? Did I somehow miss the frame where it was revealed jiraiya also had KB gathering natural energy for him? If he did then creating clones would be an issue however since he does not have clones gathering natural energy who might be disturbed by other clones then it does not make sense that he would be limited in the same way naruto was. Seriously, how in the world would ma and pa be even mildly disturbed by clones created by jiraiya when they are gathering natural energy? The clones are 120% independent of ma and pa, unless the clones make a point of grabbing sticks and pocking the toads there is no reason for them to be affected by any number of clones.

  8. #38
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Jiraiya has used kage bunshin twice, in flashback against Nagato and against Pain near hte end of his fight with the three bodies. It's not unreasonable to think he can do more than one bunshins since even Kakashi was able to do it. In fact, everyone that has used bunshins were able to do multiple bunshins, whether mizu or kage. Naruto isn't technically famous for bunshins but how he uses bunshins, like in his fight against Kiba or against Kakuzu. naruto uses it pretty cleverly.

    Why wouldn't Jiraiya be able to do that? Just because it's Naruto's thing doesn't mean Jiraiya's unable. The reason WHY it's Naruto's thing is because he has the chakra to use that many bunshins. Although Naruto would win the amount of bunshins contest, Jiraiya should theoretically be able to do the same. People like Kakashi and Itachi can't due to their low chakra, but JIraiya has been said to have high chakra amount.

    He hasn't had a need to use that many bunshins though. Or the opportunity.
    Please provide evidence that JMan can create more then 1 in SM and he can fight like that.

    I can give you hypothesis as yo why but how relevant would that be? For one what if he can't concentrate on them (like Naruto using more then 3 when he has other getting energy?) because his SM is imperfect and he can barely keep the conection going from him to Ma/Pa and using clones would mess him up. We don't know what senjutsu chakra does to your body and perhaps JMan using more clones with his imperfect SM would be a problem, expecialy asuming he can use huge rasengans with them... I can give you a lot of "why" but in the end is just fanfic.

    What if he does not have the senjutsu capacity to do so? So i know he has the ability to create A clone, can he do more then 1? Can he fight like that? Can he spam them? Can he use huge rasengans with them? I need evidence sry. In this entire Manga only Naruto was showed to fight like that and now Madara as he has those special wood clones. The others only used them as distractions, traps (like Kisame) and so on.

    So, you belive he can create them on that number? Provide evidence as he has NEVER done it. If none is provided and you keep going with it i can asume Naruto can do Rasengan with 1 hand as JMan can do it and its the same tech right? Hell Naruto knew how to summon but he could not do it right and those little frogs poped up. Even SM is the same jutsu as Naruto's but JMan can't do it right even with Ma/Pa there... So again just because its the same jutsus it does not mean he can use it to the same level. Now if there is no evidence i will be ignoring it. Naruto's usage with multiple clones is something unique to him. Its the most unique thing in this manga (probably). We know that the same jutsus works diferently for multiple people. Even MS genjutsu and Amaterasu EVEN IF they are the same jutsu. So asuming JMan can do the same thing with SC jutsu as Naruto is absurd considering there is absolutly no evidence of it. Only 1 clone and as a short distraction, nothing more.

    So asumin JMan can create multiple clones, with huge rasengan(and other SM jutsus) and keep spaming them is just that, an asumtion.
    Last edited by xXan; April 17, 2012 at 01:18 AM.

  9. #39
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    I believe ppl forgot just how exceptional Kage Bushin is.
    It is not simply a clone jutsu. It is effectively a replication jutsu, not that different from the Mokuton Bushin, which replicates the user down from cellular level ( I don't doubt that Kage Bushin derives from it, actually).
    Kage Bushin pratically recreates a perfect, perfect replica of the user.
    Neji, one which insight in the chakra pathway is so great to see 361 tiny dots in it, commented that he couldn't tell Naruto apart from his clones since they are downright identical in everything, even chakra capacity since the user chakra is split equally.
    It is by all means a living body, and the more empowered it is with chakra, the more resilient it gets, as proven recently when the clone survived even a meteor, thanks to Rubber Guy no less but was all tattered and wasted.

    Doing Kage Bushins isn't as simple as doing normal bushins, again we'll go with part 1, in part 1, despite not having the most chakra out of everyone and having terrible contro, Naruto was able to make 100 KB.
    Now go back to part 2. Kakashi, which chakra control was, like, years ahead the Naruto in part 1 and having decent, more than average chakra reserves said that he couldn't handle even 1 KB to halve his training.
    1 clone.
    You know another one who uses one clone?
    Konohamaru.
    If any of you believe that Kono >= Kakashi in chakra capacity, then we are not reading the same manga.

    Saying that Jiraiya can make 100 clones in Sage Mode only because he knows the jutsu and has the reserve is like saying that he can make a Doton or Katon rasengan because he knows the jutsu and has the element.
    It is a matter of skill, nobody except Naruto and Madara ( so Hashirama probably ) never ever was hinted to be able to make more than one or two clones to act as decoys, even if they don't lack in chakra capacity like SM Jiraiya did.
    It isn't simply that easy, and Naruto can pull it off since he used Kage Bushin continuosly for, like, 4 years

  10. #40
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Naruto has been pulling off taju kage bushin since a few seconds after he learned kage bushin, we saw that when he defeated that rogue teacher in the first chapter. He did not need 4 years of continuous training to be able to use TKB. You don't need skill to create an army of clones, you need solely a butload of chakra.

  11. #41
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    @xXan and M3J,

    Yea, I was basing most of my arguments from memory so the details are a little off. But the point is that Jiraiya failed to show any signs of having spider sage sense, or at least no where near the level of Kabuto and Naruto. Asura Pain was able to completely sneak up on him, and I can't see how that can happen if he did have sage sense. Its an inconsistency created by Kishi because its a newly introduced power and I can't give Jiraiya new sage abilities every time Kishi introduces them for somebody else. He has to show he can have them first. Sage mode is simply learning how to absorb and use natural energy. All the senjutsus, sage sense, etc. are learned skills. Perhaps Jiraiya simply did not learn sage sense or adapted to it yet, but he failed to show that he has it.

  12. #42
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    That does not even begin to make sense. Naruto specifically said that creating clones would interfere with the ones gathering natural energy. In what context would this ever be even mildly relevant to jiraiya? Did I somehow miss the frame where it was revealed jiraiya also had KB gathering natural energy for him? If he did then creating clones would be an issue however since he does not have clones gathering natural energy who might be disturbed by other clones then it does not make sense that he would be limited in the same way naruto was. Seriously, how in the world would ma and pa be even mildly disturbed by clones created by jiraiya when they are gathering natural energy? The clones are 120% independent of ma and pa, unless the clones make a point of grabbing sticks and pocking the toads there is no reason for them to be affected by any number of clones.
    As been established, Shadow Clones aren't merely connected to other clones when it comes to dealing with Sage Mode, but the original user too. So if the number of clones can interfere with the gathering of natural energy by a clone, then the same should be true for the user gathering natural energy since the mechanics would be the same. If anything, it would make more sense, since the sudden halving of chakra done when creating a clone would be dangerous while the delicate balancing of energies is going on.

  13. #43
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    @xXan and M3J,

    Yea, I was basing most of my arguments from memory so the details are a little off. But the point is that Jiraiya failed to show any signs of having spider sage sense, or at least no where near the level of Kabuto and Naruto. Asura Pain was able to completely sneak up on him, and I can't see how that can happen if he did have sage sense. Its an inconsistency created by Kishi because its a newly introduced power and I can't give Jiraiya new sage abilities every time Kishi introduces them for somebody else. He has to show he can have them first. Sage mode is simply learning how to absorb and use natural energy. All the senjutsus, sage sense, etc. are learned skills. Perhaps Jiraiya simply did not learn sage sense or adapted to it yet, but he failed to show that he has it.
    The thing is Pein himself was able to sneak like that on Naruto so that point is irrelevant. Also those are not learned abilities. You get infused with senjutsu chakra and all your "stats" get a boost. Its like Superman getting powers because of a yellow sun. His senses are just supercharged. Its not like you need to turn them on or anything, they just work on a diferent level as the chakra running trough you is on a diferent level.

  14. #44
    The Green Knight MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Gats's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    IMO a successful hit of FRS should be able kill Kabuto seeing how it's attacking the cells. Him changing shape and all shouldn't protect him against that chirurgical level of attack. The thing is, thanks to Kabuto's strategy, no one is supposed to kill him before forcing him to release the ET. Jiraiya sure has a great genjutsu but nothing that should allow him to order Kabuto to end the ET.


    If Kabuto's opponents don't care about ET and decide to take care of that later it's another story. Besides I don't think Kabuto could swim without dying in a sea of special lava made by Jiraiya+Pa/Ma. But that doesn't prevent him to summon Deidara to fly away.

  15. #45
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Three Way Sage Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    The thing is Pein himself was able to sneak like that on Naruto so that point is irrelevant. Also those are not learned abilities. You get infused with senjutsu chakra and all your "stats" get a boost. Its like Superman getting powers because of a yellow sun. His senses are just supercharged. Its not like you need to turn them on or anything, they just work on a diferent level as the chakra running trough you is on a diferent level.
    Thats' not true. Its a learned skill in that even though you don't have to turn it on, its something you need to adapt to because its a completely new sense. Its not just an enhancement of the regular 5 senses. Sage sense also allows the user to sense the natural energy and chakra around them to perceive incoming attacks. That's why Kabuto can fight so well even with his eyes closed. Jiraiya can simply not have developed his senses to an acute level or that he haven't adapted to it yet. If you read Bleach, its like how Kaname's senses actually dulled because he wasn't used to his new gained vision after his ressureccion. As for Naruto, he may not have even adapted to his senses after the Pain fight as he didn't display it until he fought Raikage. And even then, Naruto's senses pales in comparison to Kabuto's imo. His dragon sage mode just seems superior to that of Jiraiya and Naruto's at this point. He was able to use natural energy to warp his natural surroundings. Kabuto and his snake sage mode seems to be more attune to the natural energy of his surroundings and its manipulations. The toads sage mode just seems to use natural energy to boost their inherent base chakra powers. We're probably going to need more information to confirm if there is an actual difference betweent he two sage modes, but that's how I see it right now.
    Last edited by chilibun; April 17, 2012 at 12:54 PM.

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