If Itachi was the Godaime Hokage....

[M3J]

I am saying that instead of him killing his whole clan, he had become the 5th hokage taking over from the sandaime. Wouldn't a more logical solution to solving the Uchiha problem be making one of them hokage.

Itachi was the perfect Hokage Material. Wasn't partial to his clan, loved the Leaf, was really strong. Sandaime could have stood down since he was getting too old. And if Orochimaru had tried a Konoha Invasion, Itachi could have EASILY taken him out. Sandaime would still be there to guide Itachi as he was probably 16 (still older than Gaara).

The Uchiha would have been more accepted in Konoha with an Uchiha Hokage. There would be less resentment from them towards Konoha. With Itachi as Hokage, he would have been the PERFECT bridge between Konoha and Uchiha. He would have the authority to change things that would make the clan happier and less likely to attack konoha.

What do you guys think?

Problem is, no one trusted the Uchiha. For all the elders knew (even if Hiruzen endorsed Itachi), Itachi was secretly working for Uchiha and would give them dominance. They may have faced a worse problem as people would wonder why the Uchiha hokage was being targeted for assassinations all of the sudden.

Plus, Itachi was too young to be a hokage. EVen Kakashi was considered too young, and he's about 31. Itachi was 12 at the time of the massacre, and I don't think they could afforded to wait too long for Itachi to grow up and hope the coup d'etat didn't happen. Either way, Uchiha would have likely used Itachi's position since they were tired of being segregated.

[Suzaku]

Frankly, I find it very unlikely that the citizens of Konohagakure or the leadership of the Land of Fire would ever accept an Uchiha as Hokage. There had always been mistrust towards the Uchiha clan, even when they were given authority over the police force. And rightly so, as the clan was plotting a coup d'etat.

Why reach out to such an unreliable and untrustworthy group when they can just be eliminated?

[chilibun]

@M3J

Actually, I would say most of Konoha did trust the Uchiha and held their clan in high regards. It was mostly the leadership namely, Tobirama, Danzou, and the two other elders that did not trust them. But since Danzou is the real leader of Konoha, and Hiruzen is just a puppet figure head in charge of pr, it indeed would never work.

[Shinomori Aoshi]

There is already a thread with an almost identical theme here. I suppose I'm the only one remembering it because I made it.

[Uchiha_Blood]

@M3J

Actually, I would say most of Konoha did trust the Uchiha and held their clan in high regards. It was mostly the leadership namely, Tobirama, Danzou, and the two other elders that did not trust them. But since Danzou is the real leader of Konoha, and Hiruzen is just a puppet figure head in charge of pr, it indeed would never work.

I agree, we didn't see Sasuke never ever being treated as bad as Naruto was, all the countrary.
Remember in part 1? Kakashi and all Konoha had an orgasm every time he talked about Sasuke being an Uchiha and the last of his clan lol

[mattiaildivino]

if u know a clan was planning to take over the village for its own purposes, giving one of them immediate control would be stupidly handing the village to them

separate entity doctrine > village is supposed to be separate from uchiha clan's own personal interests

the elders knew that they could count on itachi's love towards the village,hence it wouldn't have eben so idiotic if they had given him that role.

[RezzieThaRapper]

Okay... if Itachi was Hokage... this would only work if the Uchiha clan massacre had somehow been blamed on another ninja... like Suisui... and Itachi had been heralded as a hero for defeating said Suisui...

Assuming simply going on S-Rank missions and stopping a few threats give Itachi the experience he showed when he first popped up... several things would have been prevented or changed...

1 - Sasuke's story would now be drastically different, maybe even more likeable, he would no longer be revenge driven and only be trying to surpass his brother in the good old sibling rivalry sense, and there would be a much more healthy relationship as they would have grown much closer as a result of Itachi being the hero who stopped the mass murderer instead of him being the mass murderer himself... ... ...It would eventually get dark for Sasuke again once Danzo inadvertantly tells Sasuke the truth about how Itachi was the true murderer and Suisui would be the scapegoat... But if this were the case it would be even harder to deter him from becoming a missing nin

2 - Naruto's story would no longer be Sasuke driven, with Itachi being the hero, and still there to comfort Sasuke 24/7, he and Naruto would no longer be on the same wavelength comparing their loneliness... Naruto would still be driven to be hokage, and still be funny and mischeivious, but his rivalry would not be the same.. They would still go at it, but just casually not fiercely, as if Sasuke was just another character in the rookie 10, Naruto would have plenty more rivalries with other characters though...

3 - The Chuunin exams would have been vastly different... with everyone expecting the most out of Sasuke as he is the Hokage's younger sibling... some people would avoid him completely, but more than likely a lot of teams would have come after them... perhaps pushing them above and beyond much more quickly... maybe because of the hype Gaara goes after him right away... maybe Kabuto goes out of his way to protect him... maybe Orochimaru doesn't press his luck at giving the CS to Sasuke... The Sound and Sand combo attack of the village would have been thawrted, for even if Oro came prepared and used Both The 1st and the 2nd, hell even if he somehow summoned the 4th... the combined power of Hiruzen and Itachi would have utterly crushed his efforts, between having the two most powerful sealing techs, and having the series strongest Genjutsu user, the best Oro could have done was use the sound 4 to use a strong barrier and help him escape, in fact, let's face it, Oro is dead...

4 - Kabuto has the choice to stay in Konoha peacefully, or enact revenge... against Itachi and Hiruzen... lol... he'll have to fight Kakashi, Jiraya, and Tsunade too.. let's just say he'll look for work elsewhere...

5 - The 2 1/2 year timeskip would have Itachi train Sasuke, Tsunade and Shizune train Sakura without Hokage paperwork... and J-man would be able to train Naruto without having to worry about Akatsuki because of the amount of power the village would currently have... I think they would all be on a different level right off the bat...

6 - Deidara would have never have joined akatsuki... Gaara would not have been captured(unless you think Sasori could do it)... Gaara being the sensible one at this point would have messaged the other villages, they would be prepared... the Akatsuki subplot is potholed pretty quickly...

7 - No Hebi/Taka... screw you guys, I love this team...

8 - With all of this conflict brewed down, the other villages get time to shine in the manga and anime...

9 - Maybe Jiraya and Tsunade would have fought Pein and Konan together... they might even bring their better trained cohorts Naruto and Sakura and Shizune... at the very least escape would have been possible in round one...

10 - Naruto finishes his Sage training instead of having to go at it square one... maybe learning more sage tech...

11 - With the villages prepared maybe only one or two tailed beast would be taken... There wouldn't be a ninja war...

12 - if for some reason Pein attacks the village, Itachi, Sasuke, Naruto, Jiraya, Tsunade, Sakura, Kakashi... would be more than enough... we wouldn't have time to hear the stupid Aesop at the end...

13 - Tobi has no say over Sasuke... even if he did... Sasuke ain't enough to flip the world upside down... Tobi would probably try for Naruto instead... not that it would work...

14 - No ninja war... but a better overall ninja world...

15 - Deidara becomes 4th Tsuchikage lol...

16 - Killer Bee trains much further down the line, maybe in his twenties... because that's how far Akatsuki would be pressed back...

EDIT: 17 - with Deidara never joining and Sasori probably being killed by Gaara... and Itachi being the big threat along with J-man... it's highly probable that we would see Kisame, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, Kabuto??, Pein and Konan attack Konoha at the same time... But at least you'd have a better trained Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura along with Itachi, J-man, Tsunade, Kakashi, and Hiruzen... it would have been the most epic battle ever... maybe even the sand siblings come and help... it would be an EPIC fight...

[kkck]

The whole scenario still makes no sense to me. So, the uchiha plans a coup and rather than fighting them to the last man they actually hand over leadership of the village to them? I mean, why? Even then, for someone to become hokage he has to be approved by the jonnin (we know for a fact that there is a jonnin vote). The whole plan basically goes to hell the moment the jonnin don't vote for a 13 year old in spite of tsunade or jiraiya having far better resumes and fame (and yes, I meant to have this sound as absurd as it does). More so, itachi loved the village however his clan as a whole resented it enough to risk an actual civil and world war for the sake of control. Does it make sense to have those guys in charge? Now, what would the village have to do to ensure the jonnin vote? the whole thing about a vote is that it is voluntary. Do they make it an S class mission to vote for itachi even though there were at least 2 other perfectly good candidates with far better resumes or do they simply tell the jonnin that if they don't vote for itachi the uchiha are rebelling and taking over anyways? The first option would imply the jonnin would just accept it in spite of the huge "WTF!" that is going to be in their minds during the charade. The second scenario kinda beats the point to the whole thing.

Another issue with this little theory is that itachi in fact does prefer world peace and the well being of the village as a whole before his clan. What happens when itachi's actions as hokage start reflecting that? The uchiha weren't taking over to share power (at least it makes sense they wouldn't risk a civil war in order to share power with the very people they fought after winning), they were taking over to take all of it. We are not talking about everything being the same except that fugaku would call the shots with the old guys as advisors, we are talking about every leadership position being held or controlled by the uchiha. In other words, having itachi as hokage would not give them that and could be easily seen by them as if itachi actually betrayed them. The whole idea of having itachi as hokage would imply that by doing so the uchiha would finally be equal to everyone in the village and everyone would be happy. Issue at hand is the HUGE assumption that the uchiha would want that at all. Even if itachi was made the kage it would not guarantee a long term stopping of the uchiha to completely take over.

[Ryr]

The whole scenario still makes no sense to me. So, the uchiha plans a coup and rather than fighting them to the last man they actually hand over leadership of the village to them?

That's because you are picking the wrong timeline - why should you analyze everything from after the Uchihas planned a coup?

The original agreement between the Senju and the Uchiha is for them to share power, and sharing power doesn't mean stuffing the top leadership with your own brother, students and confidants. The Uchihas planned a coup after realizing that the top leadership (which now consists of the aforesaid group of confidants) has no trust in them and will never share the leadership of the village with them. And that's not all, the leadership also spied on them and ripped eyes from the Uchihas (notably, from Shisui).

So, pick the right timeline if you want to analyze the whole situation - i.e. from before the whole coup thing comes into play.

[zimbardo]

The original agreement between the Senju and the Uchiha is for them to share power, and sharing power doesn't mean stuffing the top leadership with your own brother, students and confidants.

AKA the strongest ninjas in all of Konoha at the time.

The Uchihas planned a coup after realizing that the top leadership (which now consists of the aforesaid group of confidants) has no trust in them and will never share the leadership of the village with them.

I highly doubt that Hiruzen thought in this way. And am not even sure that Hashirama did (who knows about Tobirama). To share leadership doesn't mean to alternate it every new hokage.

And that's not all, the leadership also spied on them and ripped eyes from the Uchihas (notably, from Shisui).

By leadership, you solely mean Danzou. Danzou, being one of the darkest and shiftiest characters in all of Konoha. Neither Hiruzen, nor Minato were ever suggested to act in such a way.

I hold serious reservations that the Uchiha were treated as badly as Tobi made it out to be. Remember Tobi has his own agenda to make Sasuke hate Konoha, and although he often will slip truths into his stories - he will also blur facts and miss things out. Yes the Uchiha lived in their own quarter in Konoha, however this could well be due to the fact that THEY themselves didn't want to live with the Senju (when the first and second were in charge). The idea of a coup, or that the Uchiha were segregated and suppressed, came as a shock to Sasuke for example. And if you suppress people, you definitely do not let them intermingle with your general populace - check out the treatment of Jews by the nazi's for example. Also, the citizens of Konoha thought of the Uchiha as ninjas of Konoha, in the time of Sasuke and Naruto growing up, and were genuinely excited by Sasuke (and Itachi's) growth in the academy. They also thought of Itachi as a villain for killing off Konoha's Uchiha. If the Uchiha were suppressed and treated as badly as Tobi would have us believe, then it is unlikely that this hatred wouldn't have rubbed off, at least a little bit, to the citizens of Konoha.

[blackjack612]

While I think Itachi certainly had the disposition (later in life) to become Hokage, making him the Godaime Hokage would not have ended Senju/Uchiha tensions.

Let's look at what wouldn't have prevented him from becoming Hokage:

1. Age. Kakashi was considered a bit on the young side but Minato was a young Hokage and Hiruzen was extremely young when he took the position.
2. Skill. Even with Tobi's help, taking on the entire Uchiha clan is no small feat. If they divied up the targets equally, then Itachi was skilled enough to outfight half the eligible Uchiha fighters. Between that and him awakening the Mangekyo Sharingan, it's safe to say that his genjutsu at least was unmatched.
3. Faith from the Konoha higher ups. The elders and Danzo trusted Itachi enough to give him the go ahead for the massacre. Consider for a second just how much trust you have to have in someone to ask them to annihilate their entire family and not believe that they'll spill the beans to protect parents, siblings, lovers, friends. Danzo's demonstrated that he had a lot of respect for Itachi in his conversation with Sasuke.

That said, there are a few problems that would have made his ascension to the title of Hokage problematic/unlikely.

1. The Uchiha coup. This was already a long simmering feud. The whole point of making Itachi Hokage is to appease the Uchiha and prevent civil war, but that action only becomes necessary once the Uchiha had determined to take over Konoha.
2. The Kyuubi incident. Kurama's attack on Konoha was still fresh and while it was said the attack was a naturally occurring phenomenon, many suspected that the Uchiha had a hand in it since the Sharingan is known to possess the ability to control the beasts. Even with Danzo and Hiruzen's backing, who's to say how many citizens and jonin on the council would have supported Itachi for Hokage.
3. Itachi's disposition. Though he would later obtain the kind of enlightenment that would be favorable in a Kage candidate, in his youth he relied only on his own strength, partially because he had the skill to believe he could shoulder all his burdens alone and partially because his upbringing made it hard to place trust in the individuals around him. A true Hokage needs to know that he must at times depend on others for support. The strength of friends and allies. Itachi had the requisite duty but not yet a full appreciation for what makes a great leader.

Number 1 is the real issue though. If the Uchiha had merely been discontent rather than outright rebellious so that Itachi had enough time to mature into a proper candidate for Hokage, that'd be one thing. Yet it seems that Itachi's motivations, the driving force behind his quick acclimation of skill (aside from talent), were largely driven by the environment around him. If the Uchiha weren't planning rebellion he felt the need to prevent, would he have advanced so quickly? Or been fast-tracked to ANBU?

[Rikudou King]

AKA the strongest ninjas in all of Konoha at the time.


I highly doubt that Hiruzen thought in this way. And am not even sure that Hashirama did (who knows about Tobirama). To share leadership doesn't mean to alternate it every new hokage.


By leadership, you solely mean Danzou. Danzou, being one of the darkest and shiftiest characters in all of Konoha. Neither Hiruzen, nor Minato were ever suggested to act in such a way.

I hold serious reservations that the Uchiha were treated as badly as Tobi made it out to be. Remember Tobi has his own agenda to make Sasuke hate Konoha, and although he often will slip truths into his stories - he will also blur facts and miss things out. Yes the Uchiha lived in their own quarter in Konoha, however this could well be due to the fact that THEY themselves didn't want to live with the Senju (when the first and second were in charge). The idea of a coup, or that the Uchiha were segregated and suppressed, came as a shock to Sasuke for example. And if you suppress people, you definitely do not let them intermingle with your general populace - check out the treatment of Jews by the nazi's for example. Also, the citizens of Konoha thought of the Uchiha as ninjas of Konoha, in the time of Sasuke and Naruto growing up, and were genuinely excited by Sasuke (and Itachi's) growth in the academy. They also thought of Itachi as a villain for killing off Konoha's Uchiha. If the Uchiha were suppressed and treated as badly as Tobi would have us believe, then it is unlikely that this hatred wouldn't have rubbed off, at least a little bit, to the citizens of Konoha.

We pretty much witness that the selection of Hokage came down to more one's popularity and personal connections then specific strength. Both Tobirama and Sarutobi specifically pick their successors, and when one hadn't been chosen beforehand, the candidate was picked due to who they were connected to. So there did appear to be a slight bias as to who would be put up for the title.

As for the discrimination, Tobi didn't said the village as a whole discriminated, but the higher ups did. The Uchihas wouldn't have had a reason to plan the coup in the first place unless it was true, considering they clearly were fine enough with Senju ruling at the beginning to chose it over following Madara. Just randomly deciding to throw a coup after 50~ years seems an unlikely thing they would do. In addition, it was implied pretty early in the series that Sasuke due to possessing a Bloodline Limit, had faced hardships from having it.

[zimbardo]

We pretty much witness that the selection of Hokage came down to more one's popularity and personal connections then specific strength. Both Tobirama and Sarutobi specifically pick their successors, and when one hadn't been chosen beforehand, the candidate was picked due to who they were connected to. So there did appear to be a slight bias as to who would be put up for the title.

Unless you are going to claim that both Hiruzen and Minato were weak, then you can not claim that it was more one's popularity and personal connections then specific strength. Both Hiruzen and Minato have been shown to be incredibly strong and skilled, and were recognized for their ability outside of Konoha as well as inside it. There may have been slight bias, who knows what Minato's relationship with Hiruzen was - but they were still the strongest Ninjas in Konoha at the time of them being chosen for Hokageship.

As for the discrimination, Tobi didn't said the village as a whole discriminated, but the higher ups did. The Uchihas wouldn't have had a reason to plan the coup in the first place unless it was true, considering they clearly were fine enough with Senju ruling at the beginning to chose it over following Madara. Just randomly deciding to throw a coup after 50~ years seems an unlikely thing they would do. In addition, it was implied pretty early in the series that Sasuke due to possessing a Bloodline Limit, had faced hardships from having it.

But we have already seen that Hiruzen didn't discriminate at all. In fact he actively tried to bring the Uchiha back into the proverbial fold, as he recognized their strength and also respected them as Konoha ninjas. There are many reasons why the Uchiha could have planned a coup, other than them being discriminated against. Perhaps Fugaku Uchiha just wanted power? It is entirely possible that he just desired to rule Konoha, and as he feared Minato's talent he only felt safe planning a coup following Minato sealing himself to take out the 9tails. It would not take too much, and would be entirely believable, for Kishimoto to decide to elaborate on the Uchiha story, and include a reason like this to show how Tobi had been misleading Sasuke all along. It is also possible that the Uchiha may have actually felt discriminated against, however I see no reason to trust Tobi in everything he says following the exposed half-truths he has told so far. Especially considering how neatly the discrimination, if it were true, would fit into his plans.

[kkck]

That's because you are picking the wrong timeline - why should you analyze everything from after the Uchihas planned a coup?

The original agreement between the Senju and the Uchiha is for them to share power, and sharing power doesn't mean stuffing the top leadership with your own brother, students and confidants. The Uchihas planned a coup after realizing that the top leadership (which now consists of the aforesaid group of confidants) has no trust in them and will never share the leadership of the village with them. And that's not all, the leadership also spied on them and ripped eyes from the Uchihas (notably, from Shisui).

So, pick the right timeline if you want to analyze the whole situation - i.e. from before the whole coup thing comes into play.

Well, the original agreement was to unite a bunch of clans under a single organization, not just the uchiha and senju and whatnot. The senju and the uchiha were simply the most notables clan there. I don't think it makes all that much sense to analyse this retroactively, at least not that way. We do have the facts of what the entire situation resulted in, how can we possibly take that into account in that context? At best we should analyse what could have been done better in the past taking in consideration they had no idea of what the future was.

The top brass in konoha not having trust in the uchiha was due to uchiha actions though. If we take tobi's word (which we seem to be doing so far) we already know that the uchiha at some point started taking seriously what madara said about the senju taking over and the uchiha being relegated to basically servants which as far as we know was before the second hokage became wary of them. How exactly is konoha's leadership supposed to react if they know a very powerful clan within the village was less than happy with the government for no apparent reason other than them not having positions of power? The hokage is voted for anyways (granted, they are not given choices, they are merely given the option to approve or reject someone) meaning that whoever was made the kage was made so under the consensus of the village. Its not like the top brass was made entirely out of senju either. Hashirama was a senju however we know for a fact that he had the approval of every clan in the village. We don't know for a fact much about tobirama however we don't have reason to believe he was not approved of by most. Hiruzen and minato were not even senju, they were merely trained by them (so much for the evil senju conspiracy to take over) and tsunade as far as we know was approved by the jonnin. I doubt that after 50 years and 2 generations of kage we would see the evil senju jumpstarting their plan to take over, that makes no sense to me.

[Gats]

I disagree. Sure there were rare people among the Uchiha who didn't like this situation (they were too proud), but overall it was really fine (*). The real trigger was Kyuubi then the segregation of the Uchiha in a corner of the village.

(*) the other option would be a smooth segregation confining the Uchiha to one part of the village's administration only, at this point, Uchiha being upset about that is normal. We simply don't know if they were allowed to be anything else near the power (Hokage/Higher up), we can safely assume that there were Uchiha people who had a legitimate ambition but have been rejected, pretexting that after all they have the military police for themselves, it's a convenient excuse that not everyone can accept. If this what happened, can't blame the Uchiha to feel bad about it too.