If Itachi was the Godaime Hokage....

[Rikudou King]

Unless you are going to claim that both Hiruzen and Minato were weak, then you can not claim that it was more one's popularity and personal connections then specific strength. Both Hiruzen and Minato have been shown to be incredibly strong and skilled, and were recognized for their ability outside of Konoha as well as inside it. There may have been slight bias, who knows what Minato's relationship with Hiruzen was - but they were still the strongest Ninjas in Konoha at the time of them being chosen for Hokageship.

Strong =/= strongest in village. I have a very hard time believing that when Tobirama decided to sacrifice himself and picked Sarutobi as Hokage, he was the second strongest person in the village. Surely there had to have been more experience ninjas. And Minato was picked after Sarutobi discovered what a monster Orochimaru was, so it wasn't merely on the idea of being the strongest ninja in Konoha. Regardless, we outright saw the progress of choosing a Hokage after the Pain invasion. Kakashi wasn't gonna be chosen because he was the "most powerful" in Konoha, he was picked in part because he was Minato's pupil. Neither Kakashi or Danzo were the "strongest" in Konoha at the time. Nor could that even be claimed about Tsunade, who wasn't even apart of the village at that time and was picked because Jiraiya didn't want it. Power may be apart of it, but there's plenty showing that connections have a bigger role.

But we have already seen that Hiruzen didn't discriminate at all. In fact he actively tried to bring the Uchiha back into the proverbial fold, as he recognized their strength and also respected them as Konoha ninjas. There are many reasons why the Uchiha could have planned a coup, other than them being discriminated against. Perhaps Fugaku Uchiha just wanted power? It is entirely possible that he just desired to rule Konoha, and as he feared Minato's talent he only felt safe planning a coup following Minato sealing himself to take out the 9tails. It would not take too much, and would be entirely believable, for Kishimoto to decide to elaborate on the Uchiha story, and include a reason like this to show how Tobi had been misleading Sasuke all along. It is also possible that the Uchiha may have actually felt discriminated against, however I see no reason to trust Tobi in everything he says following the exposed half-truths he has told so far. Especially considering how neatly the discrimination, if it were true, would fit into his plans.

He also allowed Danzo and co to discriminate and go through with the massacre. Anyway, if that was the case, why wait seven years? Surely, the best time to stage a coup would have been right after the attack, when the village was still reeling from the damage. What trigger the grab for power specifically at that time? And why, if it was something like that, did the entire clan have to go? The only lie of Tobi that has been exposed is that the Kyuubi wasn't is doing and possibility that he's not Madara. Regardless, comments made by Danzo and Itachi imply that the situation was as he claimed.

[Zehahaha]

Well, the original agreement was to unite a bunch of clans under a single organization, not just the uchiha and senju and whatnot. The senju and the uchiha were simply the most notables clan there. I don't think it makes all that much sense to analyse this retroactively, at least not that way. We do have the facts of what the entire situation resulted in, how can we possibly take that into account in that context? At best we should analyse what could have been done better in the past taking in consideration they had no idea of what the future was.

The top brass in konoha not having trust in the uchiha was due to uchiha actions though. If we take tobi's word (which we seem to be doing so far) we already know that the uchiha at some point started taking seriously what madara said about the senju taking over and the uchiha being relegated to basically servants which as far as we know was before the second hokage became wary of them. How exactly is konoha's leadership supposed to react if they know a very powerful clan within the village was less than happy with the government for no apparent reason other than them not having positions of power? The hokage is voted for anyways (granted, they are not given choices, they are merely given the option to approve or reject someone) meaning that whoever was made the kage was made so under the consensus of the village. Its not like the top brass was made entirely out of senju either. Hashirama was a senju however we know for a fact that he had the approval of every clan in the village. We don't know for a fact much about tobirama however we don't have reason to believe he was not approved of by most. Hiruzen and minato were not even senju, they were merely trained by them (so much for the evil senju conspiracy to take over) and tsunade as far as we know was approved by the jonnin. I doubt that after 50 years and 2 generations of kage we would see the evil senju jumpstarting their plan to take over, that makes no sense to me.

It was the agreement between Senju and Uchiha that gave birth to Konoha, Uchiha and Senju alone.
All the higher ups had relation to the Senju : Tsunade/Tobirama/Hashirama being Senju, and Hiruzen being a student of both Tobirama and Hashirama, and Minato being the student of Jiraiya who was the student of Hiruzen. Koharu and Homura and Danzo were all close to the Senju too.

Are you telling me, that in the past 50 years, there hasn't been a single Uchiha skilled enough to become Hokage ? But let's suppose it is the case anyway, how come Hiruzen didn't appoint Shisui to become Hokage ? The guy seemed to be skilled, he had a reputation, even Bee acknowledged him, he had the same ideals as Hiruzen... And yet he wasn't appointed, and instead got sacrified... Konoha sacrified two, no not two, but three (Itachi, Shisui, Sasuke) of the most skilled shinobis we've ever seen because of some dumb discrimination made by Danzo and the advisors.

Konoha's biggest enemies in the end are these three, they created Konoha's biggest dangers : Nagato, Kabuto, Sasuke...

[kkck]

I know of the relation between the kages, I merely pointed out that its not like senju named people are the only ones allowed to power as we have in fact seen non senju people in power. Just having these guys follow what would be senju ideals is not enough to point at a huge conspiracy where only the senju got their way.

And what relevance is there to how skilled shisui was? Even if what you are saying made sense, shisui would have been too young to be the kage when they were being appointed. Itachi would have been too young when the kyubi attacked too. For that matter, even 30 year old kakashi and minato were seen as too young for the position (minato did get it though). And that takes up back to the dilema of having the top brass giving the uchiha the kage position even though there are still others more experienced and more qualified (mainly the sannin). Also, shisui sacrificed himself out of his own will as far as we know.

[zimbardo]

Strong =/= strongest in village. I have a very hard time believing that when Tobirama decided to sacrifice himself and picked Sarutobi as Hokage, he was the second strongest person in the village. Surely there had to have been more experience ninjas. And Minato was picked after Sarutobi discovered what a monster Orochimaru was, so it wasn't merely on the idea of being the strongest ninja in Konoha. Regardless, we outright saw the progress of choosing a Hokage after the Pain invasion. Kakashi wasn't gonna be chosen because he was the "most powerful" in Konoha, he was picked in part because he was Minato's pupil. Neither Kakashi or Danzo were the "strongest" in Konoha at the time. Nor could that even be claimed about Tsunade, who wasn't even apart of the village at that time and was picked because Jiraiya didn't want it. Power may be apart of it, but there's plenty showing that connections have a bigger role.

Well, he was picked for a special team that included Tobirama. He also said that he was the strongest out of that group (though he could have been ignoring Tobirama when he said this, it still doesn't make a difference once Tobirama had died and he became hokage). Therefore he had to be pretty damn strong. Also experience =/= strength either. And going by the fact that it was a period of war, it is likely that he did have some degree of experience to go with his skills.
Also, the Danzou case was somewhat special. The village had just been destroyed by Pain, Tsunade was in a coma, and the elders decided that with the threat posed by Akatsuki they had to get a new hokage as soon as possible (rather than wait for Tsunade to recover). It was a rushed decision, and therefore they were going to pick Kakashi as he was not only skilled and had suitable ideals, but also because he was known throughout Konoha and would be ideal to help bring the citizens of Konoha back together/give them some concept of hope.
Also, on the Tsunade issue – to be a Hokage you have to be capable of the position, not just the strongest. Jiraiya declaired himself incapable due to his mindset, the elders couldn't force him to do it as he would not be a good hokage if he was not willing to do all the jobs required that go with the role – for example all the paperwork.
I am sorry, but we will have to disagree with connections being a larger influence than power.

He also allowed Danzo and co to discriminate and go through with the massacre. Anyway, if that was the case, why wait seven years? Surely, the best time to stage a coup would have been right after the attack, when the village was still reeling from the damage. What trigger the grab for power specifically at that time? And why, if it was something like that, did the entire clan have to go? The only lie of Tobi that has been exposed is that the Kyuubi wasn't is doing and possibility that he's not Madara. Regardless, comments made by Danzo and Itachi imply that the situation was as he claimed.

You can not stop someone discriminating. At least not easily. Hiruzen worked with Uchiha, allowed Uchiha children to mingle with, and learn with, the other children, gave equal rights to the Uchiha (as far as we know). Who knows what Danzou did, but it is not like he treats people from Konoha all that well (i.e. bribing orphanages inside Konoha), so I hardly think he is a good example of a nice normal person who is discriminating specifically against the Uchiha.
Perhaps it took 7 years to convince the other Uchiha, and also to plan the coup? It is not like the ninjas from Konoha are slouches, you have to be careful when planning such a takeover. The best time may have been after the attack, but perhaps he didn't see his chance until then – or he didn't have the full support of the Uchiha clan until then (I mean full support to do such an attack)?
I also agree that it is silly that the whole clan had to be destroyed, especially the old women and children – who are incapable of fighting. However we do not know how many Uchiha there were, or how many of them were plotting, just that they were. I believe Itachi should have just killed the plotters (if he could work out who they are), and then run away as a missing nin (as he did anyway), however that is a different topic of conversation from this thread.
Also, the Kyuubi not being his doing, and him being Madara are both vital tools for him getting Sasuke on his side. Both enable him to seek sympathy from Sasuke, and forward his goal. If he said that he was not Madara, and that the Kyuubi had been his attempt to destroy Konoha, then it is unlikely that Sasuke would have joined him. It is also possible that Sasuke could have seen that the mistrust for Uchiha (had there actually been any before the coup) could have been caused by the rest of Konoha worried that they had summoned the kyuubi. Also, in all fairness, Danzou and Itachi have not said anything concrete to go with what Tobi had said, just the old “so you know what happened then.” It is possible that they don't know quite what Sasuke does and does not know and therefore just suspect that he knows the truth (not knowing how Tobi has twisted the facts – if he has).

[mattiaildivino]

Okay... if Itachi was Hokage... this would only work if the Uchiha clan massacre had somehow been blamed on another ninja... like Suisui... and Itachi had been heralded as a hero for defeating said Suisui...

Assuming simply going on S-Rank missions and stopping a few threats give Itachi the experience he showed when he first popped up... several things would have been prevented or changed...

1 - Sasuke's story would now be drastically different, maybe even more likeable, he would no longer be revenge driven and only be trying to surpass his brother in the good old sibling rivalry sense, and there would be a much more healthy relationship as they would have grown much closer as a result of Itachi being the hero who stopped the mass murderer instead of him being the mass murderer himself... ... ...It would eventually get dark for Sasuke again once Danzo inadvertantly tells Sasuke the truth about how Itachi was the true murderer and Suisui would be the scapegoat... But if this were the case it would be even harder to deter him from becoming a missing nin

2 - Naruto's story would no longer be Sasuke driven, with Itachi being the hero, and still there to comfort Sasuke 24/7, he and Naruto would no longer be on the same wavelength comparing their loneliness... Naruto would still be driven to be hokage, and still be funny and mischeivious, but his rivalry would not be the same.. They would still go at it, but just casually not fiercely, as if Sasuke was just another character in the rookie 10, Naruto would have plenty more rivalries with other characters though...

3 - The Chuunin exams would have been vastly different... with everyone expecting the most out of Sasuke as he is the Hokage's younger sibling... some people would avoid him completely, but more than likely a lot of teams would have come after them... perhaps pushing them above and beyond much more quickly... maybe because of the hype Gaara goes after him right away... maybe Kabuto goes out of his way to protect him... maybe Orochimaru doesn't press his luck at giving the CS to Sasuke... The Sound and Sand combo attack of the village would have been thawrted, for even if Oro came prepared and used Both The 1st and the 2nd, hell even if he somehow summoned the 4th... the combined power of Hiruzen and Itachi would have utterly crushed his efforts, between having the two most powerful sealing techs, and having the series strongest Genjutsu user, the best Oro could have done was use the sound 4 to use a strong barrier and help him escape, in fact, let's face it, Oro is dead...

4 - Kabuto has the choice to stay in Konoha peacefully, or enact revenge... against Itachi and Hiruzen... lol... he'll have to fight Kakashi, Jiraya, and Tsunade too.. let's just say he'll look for work elsewhere...

5 - The 2 1/2 year timeskip would have Itachi train Sasuke, Tsunade and Shizune train Sakura without Hokage paperwork... and J-man would be able to train Naruto without having to worry about Akatsuki because of the amount of power the village would currently have... I think they would all be on a different level right off the bat...

6 - Deidara would have never have joined akatsuki... Gaara would not have been captured(unless you think Sasori could do it)... Gaara being the sensible one at this point would have messaged the other villages, they would be prepared... the Akatsuki subplot is potholed pretty quickly...

7 - No Hebi/Taka... screw you guys, I love this team...

8 - With all of this conflict brewed down, the other villages get time to shine in the manga and anime...

9 - Maybe Jiraya and Tsunade would have fought Pein and Konan together... they might even bring their better trained cohorts Naruto and Sakura and Shizune... at the very least escape would have been possible in round one...

10 - Naruto finishes his Sage training instead of having to go at it square one... maybe learning more sage tech...

11 - With the villages prepared maybe only one or two tailed beast would be taken... There wouldn't be a ninja war...

12 - if for some reason Pein attacks the village, Itachi, Sasuke, Naruto, Jiraya, Tsunade, Sakura, Kakashi... would be more than enough... we wouldn't have time to hear the stupid Aesop at the end...

13 - Tobi has no say over Sasuke... even if he did... Sasuke ain't enough to flip the world upside down... Tobi would probably try for Naruto instead... not that it would work...

14 - No ninja war... but a better overall ninja world...

15 - Deidara becomes 4th Tsuchikage lol...

16 - Killer Bee trains much further down the line, maybe in his twenties... because that's how far Akatsuki would be pressed back...

EDIT: 17 - with Deidara never joining and Sasori probably being killed by Gaara... and Itachi being the big threat along with J-man... it's highly probable that we would see Kisame, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, Kabuto??, Pein and Konan attack Konoha at the same time... But at least you'd have a better trained Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura along with Itachi, J-man, Tsunade, Kakashi, and Hiruzen... it would have been the most epic battle ever... maybe even the sand siblings come and help... it would be an EPIC fight...

just to correct 2 points: if itachi hadn't joined akatsuki,it's true that deidara wouldn't have done that either,but orochimaru would have stayed there. and Sasori would have stomped gaara,for 2 reasons which help each other: 1)deidara admitted that Sasori was stronger than him ; 2)the 3rd kazekage,the strongest ninja of the Sand(hence stronger than gaara) was defeated by Sasori.

[kkck]

Well, the issue here is that I doubt anyone in the uchiha would really be defenseless. They were a ninja clan of very strong people, each and every one of them was trained to be deadly which is an issue in a clan where the manga stated every ninja was an elite shinobi (If I recall the gaiden pointed that out). Also, we have seen plenty of old people who were insanely strong such as hiruzen, chiyo or the third raikage. Granted that those are probably the more exagerated cases but does it make sense to assume old people in the manga are plain useless? Old people who would potentially tell children that their ninja elite parents were killed by the village to stop a coup? Anyone old enough to know what was going on could grow up to fight the village. Clearly it is not in the best interest of the village for the clan to go to another village either.

[Rikudou King]

Well, he was picked for a special team that included Tobirama. He also said that he was the strongest out of that group (though he could have been ignoring Tobirama when he said this, it still doesn't make a difference once Tobirama had died and he became hokage). Therefore he had to be pretty damn strong. Also experience =/= strength either. And going by the fact that it was a period of war, it is likely that he did have some degree of experience to go with his skills.
Also, the Danzou case was somewhat special. The village had just been destroyed by Pain, Tsunade was in a coma, and the elders decided that with the threat posed by Akatsuki they had to get a new hokage as soon as possible (rather than wait for Tsunade to recover). It was a rushed decision, and therefore they were going to pick Kakashi as he was not only skilled and had suitable ideals, but also because he was known throughout Konoha and would be ideal to help bring the citizens of Konoha back together/give them some concept of hope.
Also, on the Tsunade issue – to be a Hokage you have to be capable of the position, not just the strongest. Jiraiya declaired himself incapable due to his mindset, the elders couldn't force him to do it as he would not be a good hokage if he was not willing to do all the jobs required that go with the role – for example all the paperwork.
I am sorry, but we will have to disagree with connections being a larger influence than power.

Which again only goes to show he was strong, but not the "second strongest" in the village. Outside of the usage of hax abilities, experience would be a good indicator and with it being a period of war, then the same would be said of any ninja. The point with Kakashi was that we saw the process he went through to get chosen, and it had far more to do with who he had been trained by then mere strength. The Daimyo admitted that he had wanted Jiraiya because he liked him and was gonna pick Kakashi because he was the student of Jiraiya's student. Anyway, how was Tsunade more capable of the position? She didn't appear at all any better then Jiraiya would have been.

You can not stop someone discriminating. At least not easily. Hiruzen worked with Uchiha, allowed Uchiha children to mingle with, and learn with, the other children, gave equal rights to the Uchiha (as far as we know). Who knows what Danzou did, but it is not like he treats people from Konoha all that well (i.e. bribing orphanages inside Konoha), so I hardly think he is a good example of a nice normal person who is discriminating specifically against the Uchiha.
Perhaps it took 7 years to convince the other Uchiha, and also to plan the coup? It is not like the ninjas from Konoha are slouches, you have to be careful when planning such a takeover. The best time may have been after the attack, but perhaps he didn't see his chance until then – or he didn't have the full support of the Uchiha clan until then (I mean full support to do such an attack)?
I also agree that it is silly that the whole clan had to be destroyed, especially the old women and children – who are incapable of fighting. However we do not know how many Uchiha there were, or how many of them were plotting, just that they were. I believe Itachi should have just killed the plotters (if he could work out who they are), and then run away as a missing nin (as he did anyway), however that is a different topic of conversation from this thread.
Also, the Kyuubi not being his doing, and him being Madara are both vital tools for him getting Sasuke on his side. Both enable him to seek sympathy from Sasuke, and forward his goal. If he said that he was not Madara, and that the Kyuubi had been his attempt to destroy Konoha, then it is unlikely that Sasuke would have joined him. It is also possible that Sasuke could have seen that the mistrust for Uchiha (had there actually been any before the coup) could have been caused by the rest of Konoha worried that they had summoned the kyuubi. Also, in all fairness, Danzou and Itachi have not said anything concrete to go with what Tobi had said, just the old “so you know what happened then.” It is possible that they don't know quite what Sasuke does and does not know and therefore just suspect that he knows the truth (not knowing how Tobi has twisted the facts – if he has).

We're not talking about some random act of discrimination, we're talking about a specific militaristic action being taken. As the leader of said military, Sarutobi should have been capable of ordering it cancelled. And it wasn't just Danzo in on it, but the Elders too.

That would still bring about the question as to why they would side with him unless they had some reason to do so. Him simply being their leader doesn't work, as we saw with Madara, the Uchiha clan was shown to fully be willing to go against their leader in support of Konoha. In addition, considering Shisui and Itachi, if he had gone around trying to convince the others, surely they would have acted before it got to the point of actually planing the coup. As for Tobi getting Sasuke feeling sympathy, perhaps the lie about the Kyuubi, but not the one about being Madara, especially when he admitted to helping eliminate the clan. I doubt Sasuke would have cared whether Tobi was Madara or not, seeing as he had no connection other then clan pride to him. And Itachi did basically confirm that the Uchiha tried to take over the village while Danzo confirmed it was on his orders that it was done.

[zimbardo]

Which again only goes to show he was strong, but not the "second strongest" in the village. Outside of the usage of hax abilities, experience would be a good indicator and with it being a period of war, then the same would be said of any ninja. The point with Kakashi was that we saw the process he went through to get chosen, and it had far more to do with who he had been trained by then mere strength. The Daimyo admitted that he had wanted Jiraiya because he liked him and was gonna pick Kakashi because he was the student of Jiraiya's student. Anyway, how was Tsunade more capable of the position? She didn't appear at all any better then Jiraiya would have been.

He was the 2nd strongest out of everyone that we have seen though. We can not say for sure that there was anyone stronger. There is nothing to say that Tobirama couldn't have said “Hiruzen, please tell <insert name here> that from tomorrow onwards <he/she> will be the next hokage.”
There is also nothing to say that anyone else had any more useful experience. Just being older, doesn't mean that your experiences are any more useful. Fact is that Hiruzen had been working with Tobirama, on missions that demanded Hokage skills (likely – or else why would Tobirama be on the missions and not just some other ninja?).
Hiruzen has also seen first hand what is demanded of a Hokage, and therefore is likely understanding of the demands of the job.
As I said, Kakashi was a different case. Danzou convinced the others that a change in leadership was vital at that point. Therefore the choosing of a Hokage needed to be rushed. This was even shown by Danzou being 'hokage' and still not fully in the position as the jounin vote had not been fully conducted.
As for the Daimyo choosing Jiraiya, well, firstly the Daimyo appreciated Jiraiya's ideals, he also knew that Jiraiya was strong enough for the role. Secondly, the Daimyo isn't the sole decider on a new Hokage – the village needs to vote also. He was also going to choose Kakashi because of his reputation as a skilled ninja.
As for Tsunade being more capable, well you can see that as soon as she got back to Konoha she took up the responsibilities right away. This includes all the paperwork that Jiraiya would never want to do. Jiraiya likes to be free to wander, not cooped up in a village.

We're not talking about some random act of discrimination, we're talking about a specific militaristic action being taken. As the leader of said military, Sarutobi should have been capable of ordering it cancelled. And it wasn't just Danzo in on it, but the Elders too.

That would still bring about the question as to why they would side with him unless they had some reason to do so. Him simply being their leader doesn't work, as we saw with Madara, the Uchiha clan was shown to fully be willing to go against their leader in support of Konoha. In addition, considering Shisui and Itachi, if he had gone around trying to convince the others, surely they would have acted before it got to the point of actually planing the coup. As for Tobi getting Sasuke feeling sympathy, perhaps the lie about the Kyuubi, but not the one about being Madara, especially when he admitted to helping eliminate the clan. I doubt Sasuke would have cared whether Tobi was Madara or not, seeing as he had no connection other then clan pride to him. And Itachi did basically confirm that the Uchiha tried to take over the village while Danzo confirmed it was on his orders that it was done.

But we have seen that there are many things that were out of Sarutobi's control during his reign. Fact is that Sarutobi tried his best to seek a diplomatic solution, up until the last moment. There is nothing to say that Sarutobi ever fully supported the attack. For all we know, Danzou could have been the one to order Itachi. And the elders are both as untrustworthy as Danzou in my opinion. 3 people =/= village discrimination no matter how high their positions are.
They didn't side with Madara because they had been fighting for so long that they were sick of it, and desired peace. This is not the same as when they were plotting a revolution, as they had some stability here. Not surely. There is nothing to say that others would have been so easy to convince as Itachi and Shisui. Itachi was a special case, and as Shisui was his best friend it is possible that their characters were similar or they shared similar ideals. Trying to convince others would be leading to them taking a stance for the village against the Uchiha (or the Uchiha revolutionaries could put this slant on the argument).
But clan pride is what has been drawing Sasuke along so far. Or was before this shifted to his brotherly infatuation. He made it out that, as Madara, he was shunned from the village for predicting the Uchiha suppression – and therefore the later revolution.
Both Itachi and Danzou did basically confirm that the Uchiha tried to take over the village, however neither suggested the reason for this. Neither said it was down to the suppression of the Uchiha either.

[Rikudou King]

He was the 2nd strongest out of everyone that we have seen though. We can not say for sure that there was anyone stronger. There is nothing to say that Tobirama couldn't have said “Hiruzen, please tell <insert name here> that from tomorrow onwards <he/she> will be the next hokage.”
There is also nothing to say that anyone else had any more useful experience. Just being older, doesn't mean that your experiences are any more useful. Fact is that Hiruzen had been working with Tobirama, on missions that demanded Hokage skills (likely – or else why would Tobirama be on the missions and not just some other ninja?).
Hiruzen has also seen first hand what is demanded of a Hokage, and therefore is likely understanding of the demands of the job.
As I said, Kakashi was a different case. Danzou convinced the others that a change in leadership was vital at that point. Therefore the choosing of a Hokage needed to be rushed. This was even shown by Danzou being 'hokage' and still not fully in the position as the jounin vote had not been fully conducted.
As for the Daimyo choosing Jiraiya, well, firstly the Daimyo appreciated Jiraiya's ideals, he also knew that Jiraiya was strong enough for the role. Secondly, the Daimyo isn't the sole decider on a new Hokage – the village needs to vote also. He was also going to choose Kakashi because of his reputation as a skilled ninja.
As for Tsunade being more capable, well you can see that as soon as she got back to Konoha she took up the responsibilities right away. This includes all the paperwork that Jiraiya would never want to do. Jiraiya likes to be free to wander, not cooped up in a village.

True, we can't say for sure, but the odds would be for it. The previous generation that Hashirama and Tobirama had fought alongside would still have been up and active, so while experience wouldn't mean everything, it would mean something. There doesn't seem to be anything unique about what a Hokage is required to do. Jiraiya and Kakashi were clearly gonna be thrown in without possessing any more experience towards the demands expected. Tsunade was thrown in without any experience with the demands.

I'm not sure how you can say it was rushed. The choosing of Jiraiya/Tsunade seem to have happen in the same amount of time. The point being, a factor in it all was who knew who. The Daimyo specifically mentioned liking Jiraiya as his reasoning, and when Kakashi was brought up, his deciding factor was who trained him. The village merely approves the new Hokage. They don't appear to have a say in who any of the candidates are. I don't think just doing paperwork shows one is capable. Making decisions that's in the villages best interest is far more important.

But we have seen that there are many things that were out of Sarutobi's control during his reign. Fact is that Sarutobi tried his best to seek a diplomatic solution, up until the last moment. There is nothing to say that Sarutobi ever fully supported the attack. For all we know, Danzou could have been the one to order Itachi. And the elders are both as untrustworthy as Danzou in my opinion. 3 people =/= village discrimination no matter how high their positions are.
They didn't side with Madara because they had been fighting for so long that they were sick of it, and desired peace. This is not the same as when they were plotting a revolution, as they had some stability here. Not surely. There is nothing to say that others would have been so easy to convince as Itachi and Shisui. Itachi was a special case, and as Shisui was his best friend it is possible that their characters were similar or they shared similar ideals. Trying to convince others would be leading to them taking a stance for the village against the Uchiha (or the Uchiha revolutionaries could put this slant on the argument).
But clan pride is what has been drawing Sasuke along so far. Or was before this shifted to his brotherly infatuation. He made it out that, as Madara, he was shunned from the village for predicting the Uchiha suppression – and therefore the later revolution.
Both Itachi and Danzou did basically confirm that the Uchiha tried to take over the village, however neither suggested the reason for this. Neither said it was down to the suppression of the Uchiha either.

There's a difference between not having control over something he wasn't aware of and not having control over something he did. He was inform of the situation with the Uchihas, otherwise he couldn't have attempted said diplomatic solution. He may not fully supported it, but he knew it was gonna go down eventually and allowed those responsible to be free. I would say given their actions against Tsunade, the Elders have a pretty good understanding of what is needed for the bets of the village, which is pretty much their role. And the discrimination of those higher up would make the efforts of those below quite hard.

Forming a coup would have thrust the whole village into a civil war, not to mention it becoming an open target to any enemy village in the chaos. And that's my point, unless they had some reason to feel Konoha was not being beneficial to them, the others should logically have been like Itachi and Shisui. There's no reason to support a coup if you're getting your way. For everyone but Itachi and Shisui to not support it, and for Konoha not to be aware of it until they were all in for it, there much have been an external trigger for it. And while they have not confirmed the entire story, so far it jives with what Tobi has claim and nothing yet suggest he was lying. It's different then with the Kyuubi, where it was suggested by two different sources he was behind it before he said otherwise.

[zimbardo]

True, we can't say for sure, but the odds would be for it. The previous generation that Hashirama and Tobirama had fought alongside would still have been up and active, so while experience wouldn't mean everything, it would mean something. There doesn't seem to be anything unique about what a Hokage is required to do. Jiraiya and Kakashi were clearly gonna be thrown in without possessing any more experience towards the demands expected. Tsunade was thrown in without any experience with the demands.

I am not sure how you can claim that the odds were for it, just because the previous generation were still around. Fact is that he was chosen to protect the Hokage at a time of war, and that he was specifically chosen for a particularly dangerous mission. As for unique things that a Hogake is required to do, general organisation of the village, missions and shinobi come under this. Kakashi seems much better suited to this menial task work than Jiraiya. True, they had little experience for the task, but Jiraiya must have seen Hiruzen in action (doing Hokage things – not fighting), as he was one of Hiruzens special 3. And Kakashi was a member of ANBU, and so was close to the Hokage, and was also a member of Minato's special 3, and so must have seen Minato doing his general Hokage work also. Both were also Jounin, so could have taken part in accepting Hokages. Tsunade shares similar things with Jiraiya.

I'm not sure how you can say it was rushed. The choosing of Jiraiya/Tsunade seem to have happen in the same amount of time. The point being, a factor in it all was who knew who. The Daimyo specifically mentioned liking Jiraiya as his reasoning, and when Kakashi was brought up, his deciding factor was who trained him. The village merely approves the new Hokage. They don't appear to have a say in who any of the candidates are. I don't think just doing paperwork shows one is capable. Making decisions that's in the villages best interest is far more important.

I can say it was rushed due to Danzou insisting that they elect a new Hokage even though the previous one was still alive. I will not deny that a factor was who was trained by who, as then they are likely to have learned useful techniques from that person. And yes, the village does not get a say (that we have been told), however they do get to outright reject a candidate that they do not see as worthy. Doing paperwork is a lot of the decision making, I did not mean just stamping their name at the bottom of the forms. The paperwork includes allocating missions, accepting missions, assigning ranks, forming squads, etc. This is all far too menial tasks for someone like Jiraiya who would rather be outside the village doing his own thing.

There's a difference between not having control over something he wasn't aware of and not having control over something he did. He was inform of the situation with the Uchihas, otherwise he couldn't have attempted said diplomatic solution. He may not fully supported it, but he knew it was gonna go down eventually and allowed those responsible to be free. I would say given their actions against Tsunade, the Elders have a pretty good understanding of what is needed for the bets of the village, which is pretty much their role. And the discrimination of those higher up would make the efforts of those below quite hard.

He was aware of it, but he had very little control over the event. The manga has shown us time and time again that Danzou (and the elders) will go behind the Hokage's back and do actions that they deem necessary. Hiruzen (and Tsunade) knew what Danzou was like, and what he was doing (perhaps not the specifics), however they allowed him to continue as he was a necessary evil to keep Konoha protected. I am not even sure he could have stopped Danzou if he wanted. By this I mean, sure, he could have forced Danzou into inaction (by locking him up for example), however if then the revolution happened he would be held responsible for not heeding Danzou's warnings. The discrimination however was not shown below, at least there was not a single pannel in the manga that I have yet come across (outside of Tobi's speech) that has shown this discrimination. Neither Minato or Hiruzen has been shown to discriminate (nor Hashirama or Tobirama for that matter), and therefore others would have the role model of a Hokage in not discriminating.

Forming a coup would have thrust the whole village into a civil war, not to mention it becoming an open target to any enemy village in the chaos. And that's my point, unless they had some reason to feel Konoha was not being beneficial to them, the others should logically have been like Itachi and Shisui. There's no reason to support a coup if you're getting your way. For everyone but Itachi and Shisui to not support it, and for Konoha not to be aware of it until they were all in for it, there much have been an external trigger for it. And while they have not confirmed the entire story, so far it jives with what Tobi has claim and nothing yet suggest he was lying. It's different then with the Kyuubi, where it was suggested by two different sources he was behind it before he said otherwise.

Not necessarily true. It may have been an action of pure greed. If condition A is acceptable, but someone suggests if you follow him then condition B will be much better for you (with added Uchiha benefits) then many will choose B just because of the greed factor. Greed can lead people to perform particularly illogical actions at times. And even if you are getting your way, people will always want more. Konoha was not aware of it because the Uchiha thought that there plotting was secret. They wanted to take Konoha by surprise, as then the takeover would be more likely to succeed. Hiruzen and the elders did know, so they tried to sort it out by diplomacy (or at least Hiruzen did) however they were not likely to tell everyone else as this would have led to panic. In fact the sole fact that they didn't spread the news suggests that they respected the Uchiha and did not think of them as lesser people. If they wanted to discriminate against the Uchiha, then there is nothing more strong than to say that they were plotting a coup against all the innocent civilians and the peaceful regime. But Tobi has been telling half-truths (or may have been) and therefore it is likely that much of what Itachi and Danzou suggested (if they do not outright say something) will gel with what Tobi had said. If Tobi had stated that the Uchiha were organizing a revolt because they were:
A – jealous and power-hungry
B – because Hiruzen had slept with Itachi's mother
C – because they desired a war with the Sand which the Hokage refused
Then all 3 would have fitted with what Itachi and Danzou had suggested. In fact Tobi could have probably even ignored the revolt aspect and just said that the Hokage hated Uchiha for some reason, and still it would probably have fitted just as well with what Itachi and Danzou had suggested. “So you know the reason then?”

[Rikudou King]

I am not sure how you can claim that the odds were for it, just because the previous generation were still around. Fact is that he was chosen to protect the Hokage at a time of war, and that he was specifically chosen for a particularly dangerous mission. As for unique things that a Hogake is required to do, general organisation of the village, missions and shinobi come under this. Kakashi seems much better suited to this menial task work than Jiraiya. True, they had little experience for the task, but Jiraiya must have seen Hiruzen in action (doing Hokage things – not fighting), as he was one of Hiruzens special 3. And Kakashi was a member of ANBU, and so was close to the Hokage, and was also a member of Minato's special 3, and so must have seen Minato doing his general Hokage work also. Both were also Jounin, so could have taken part in accepting Hokages. Tsunade shares similar things with Jiraiya.

They were on a diplomatic mission to Kumo that ended up as a dangerous mission. Anyway, I mentioned the odds because of what we witness at the summit and with Minato's "personal" Hokage guards. None of them appear as if they were the second strongest or ready to imminently take up the mantle if called on. Of course that woyuld also apply to the fact that there was a whole group there, not just Sarutobi. It would be quite weird for them all to be above any other ninjas in the village or for Tobirama to choose the second strongest and then a bunch of weaker ninjas for a team. General organization would be something all the jounins would be taught and if needed, would have the council to fall back upon for aid. Unless they were treated like assistants, then they likely wouldn't have experience the inner workings. We've seen that with Tsunade. The only exception would be Orochimaru, who was actually being trained in order to take up the role.

I can say it was rushed due to Danzou insisting that they elect a new Hokage even though the previous one was still alive. I will not deny that a factor was who was trained by who, as then they are likely to have learned useful techniques from that person. And yes, the village does not get a say (that we have been told), however they do get to outright reject a candidate that they do not see as worthy. Doing paperwork is a lot of the decision making, I did not mean just stamping their name at the bottom of the forms. The paperwork includes allocating missions, accepting missions, assigning ranks, forming squads, etc. This is all far too menial tasks for someone like Jiraiya who would rather be outside the village doing his own thing.

Alive but incapacitated for an unknown amount of time. Anyway, I would think being trained as ninjas is a lot different from being trained as future leaders. The same with expecting war veteran and men of action to preform menial task. If it was such a critical part of being Hokage and something not everyone is capable of, the none would think this would be a factor in the initial choosing of who would become Hokage. It's not as if Tsunade, who abandoned the village for years, or Kakashi, who's well known for his personality, would appear to be in any better position to deal with menial task then Jiraiya.

He was aware of it, but he had very little control over the event. The manga has shown us time and time again that Danzou (and the elders) will go behind the Hokage's back and do actions that they deem necessary. Hiruzen (and Tsunade) knew what Danzou was like, and what he was doing (perhaps not the specifics), however they allowed him to continue as he was a necessary evil to keep Konoha protected. I am not even sure he could have stopped Danzou if he wanted. By this I mean, sure, he could have forced Danzou into inaction (by locking him up for example), however if then the revolution happened he would be held responsible for not heeding Danzou's warnings. The discrimination however was not shown below, at least there was not a single pannel in the manga that I have yet come across (outside of Tobi's speech) that has shown this discrimination. Neither Minato or Hiruzen has been shown to discriminate (nor Hashirama or Tobirama for that matter), and therefore others would have the role model of a Hokage in not discriminating.

But this wasn't a situation where they could go behind his back or act without him being aware. It would have been nearly impossible for them to act within the village as they did without it been known by him. Anyway, considering we have only Sasuke and Tobi's flashback of the Uchihas time in Konoha, we can't say there was no discrimination by them. Don't forget, that even before we were told of the discrimination by Tobi, it was implied all the way in the first arc that Sasuke, by via having a Bloodline Limit, had faced discrimination before.

Not necessarily true. It may have been an action of pure greed. If condition A is acceptable, but someone suggests if you follow him then condition B will be much better for you (with added Uchiha benefits) then many will choose B just because of the greed factor. Greed can lead people to perform particularly illogical actions at times. And even if you are getting your way, people will always want more. Konoha was not aware of it because the Uchiha thought that there plotting was secret. They wanted to take Konoha by surprise, as then the takeover would be more likely to succeed. Hiruzen and the elders did know, so they tried to sort it out by diplomacy (or at least Hiruzen did) however they were not likely to tell everyone else as this would have led to panic. In fact the sole fact that they didn't spread the news suggests that they respected the Uchiha and did not think of them as lesser people. If they wanted to discriminate against the Uchiha, then there is nothing more strong than to say that they were plotting a coup against all the innocent civilians and the peaceful regime. But Tobi has been telling half-truths (or may have been) and therefore it is likely that much of what Itachi and Danzou suggested (if they do not outright say something) will gel with what Tobi had said. If Tobi had stated that the Uchiha were organizing a revolt because they were:
A – jealous and power-hungry
B – because Hiruzen had slept with Itachi's mother
C – because they desired a war with the Sand which the Hokage refused
Then all 3 would have fitted with what Itachi and Danzou had suggested. In fact Tobi could have probably even ignored the revolt aspect and just said that the Hokage hated Uchiha for some reason, and still it would probably have fitted just as well with what Itachi and Danzou had suggested. “So you know the reason then?”

But again, when given the chance to support Madara for Hokage and make a bid for power, they all turn their back on him. So they couldn't have been that greedy for just power. And my point about Konoha not knowing til the end is that for that to happen, all the other Uchihas would have had to been alright with it right from the start. It would seems really weird that only Itachi would remain loyal to Konoha and that no other Uchiha would be loyal enough to blow the whistle when they learnt of it, instead all the other Uchihas merely being disloyal and greedy for more power. Spreading the news would have causes questions to rises and potentially caused more trouble then keeping quiet. And yes, while it's true various things could have fitted into what Tobi claimed, Itachi and Danzo's agreement isn't the sole pieces we have to fit with it. There's also what we saw during Sasuke's flashback and such.

[zimbardo]

-edit-
Skipped your first point as agree that just because he was with Tobirama doesn't necessarily mean that he was the 2nd strongest. Will just add, however, that this was at a period of war and, due to the nature of the Hokage title (and that killing him/capturing him would be an incredibly useful tool for bribery/military power) it was unlikely that he would not have skilled strong shinobi around him at that point in time - even if on a diplomatic mission.
As for 2nd point, I guess I agree also. Just disagree that Jiraiya's personality is better suited to leadership than Tsunade's, and certainly not Kakashi's.
-edit-

But this wasn't a situation where they could go behind his back or act without him being aware. It would have been nearly impossible for them to act within the village as they did without it been known by him. Anyway, considering we have only Sasuke and Tobi's flashback of the Uchihas time in Konoha, we can't say there was no discrimination by them. Don't forget, that even before we were told of the discrimination by Tobi, it was implied all the way in the first arc that Sasuke, by via having a Bloodline Limit, had faced discrimination before.

Hiruzen tried his approach, just as Danzou and the elders kept pestering him that they should take immediate action (non-diplomatic). When it looked like diplomacy had failed (though it was stated that Hiruzen tried the Diplomatic approach up until the end – if I remember. Please correct me if not the case), Itachi was ordered to terminate all the Uchiha. I do not recall it being stated who gave Itachi these specific orders. It could well have been Danzou, or Hiruzen (though it does seem unlikely to me for Hiruzen to give these kinds of orders as he was somewhat 'naïve' at times in my opinion), and if that was the case it could have been them giving the orders before Hiruzen knew (as in the evening of the massacre). Of course he knew about the plans. I am not denying that there may not have been discrimination, I am just stating that it seems highly unlikely given the role, freedom, and the respect that the Uchiha had in Konoha. It is true that all we have is Tobi's word on the matter, I just do not trust him to be 100% truthful in this matter. And could you please post some pages where it was implied that he had faced discrimination (I do not have time at the moment to look it up – sorry).

But again, when given the chance to support Madara for Hokage and make a bid for power, they all turn their back on him. So they couldn't have been that greedy for just power. And my point about Konoha not knowing til the end is that for that to happen, all the other Uchihas would have had to been alright with it right from the start. It would seems really weird that only Itachi would remain loyal to Konoha and that no other Uchiha would be loyal enough to blow the whistle when they learnt of it, instead all the other Uchihas merely being disloyal and greedy for more power. Spreading the news would have causes questions to rises and potentially caused more trouble then keeping quiet. And yes, while it's true various things could have fitted into what Tobi claimed, Itachi and Danzo's agreement isn't the sole pieces we have to fit with it. There's also what we saw during Sasuke's flashback and such.

But as I said, the Madara case was just after a huge period of wars/fighting. The Uchiha had grown sick of constant conflict and saw Madara as a warmongering ninja. The Uchiha massacre was at a relative time of peace comparatively – certainly a time of greater stability for the Uchiha clan.
I am not saying that all the Uchiha were in on the plan. I find it highly unlikely that they all could have been (especially not the elderly and the children). This also leads me to see how stupid massacring them all was. Now it is possible that locking up the culprits may have led to some sympathy for their cause, or could have been spun by them to incite further unrest. However massacring numerous innocent citizens just to kill a few revolutionaries is really a very bad idea, and the wrong way around it. Therefore it wasn't probably only Itachi who was fine with it, it was just that Itachi was the only one who knew of the plot and was fine with the massacre. The other Uchiha wouldn't have blown a whistle as they were probably a select bunch of strong Uchiha who desired more, they believed Itachi was on their side, turns out they were wrong.
By Sasuke's flashback, do you mean the one scene with Itachi crying? If so, this hardly fits with either suppression, or a revolution for that matter. It just shows that Itachi was sad about what he had done (or been ordered to) for some reason. It fits with Tobi's story, but is hardly proof of anything at all (other than Itachi was sad for some reason).

[Rikudou King]

Hiruzen tried his approach, just as Danzou and the elders kept pestering him that they should take immediate action (non-diplomatic). When it looked like diplomacy had failed (though it was stated that Hiruzen tried the Diplomatic approach up until the end – if I remember. Please correct me if not the case), Itachi was ordered to terminate all the Uchiha. I do not recall it being stated who gave Itachi these specific orders. It could well have been Danzou, or Hiruzen (though it does seem unlikely to me for Hiruzen to give these kinds of orders as he was somewhat 'naïve' at times in my opinion), and if that was the case it could have been them giving the orders before Hiruzen knew (as in the evening of the massacre). Of course he knew about the plans. I am not denying that there may not have been discrimination, I am just stating that it seems highly unlikely given the role, freedom, and the respect that the Uchiha had in Konoha. It is true that all we have is Tobi's word on the matter, I just do not trust him to be 100% truthful in this matter. And could you please post some pages where it was implied that he had faced discrimination (I do not have time at the moment to look it up – sorry).

Yeah, Sarutobi was said to have attempted it up until the end. Everything indicates the order came from Danzo, but it should be noted that Itachi went to Sarutobi to have him protect Sasuke. So I question that if Sarutobi had enough authority to keep Sasuke safe, why they same sort of intent couldn't have been used beforehand. Them having freedom and respect doesn't mean there still wasn't some discrimination. We saw a similar situation with Neji and his treatment as a branch member. The branch members as a whole is treated as second class, but Neji was shown somewhat respected, at least by Hinata. Haku suggested it when he was speaking of his own past.

But as I said, the Madara case was just after a huge period of wars/fighting. The Uchiha had grown sick of constant conflict and saw Madara as a warmongering ninja. The Uchiha massacre was at a relative time of peace comparatively – certainly a time of greater stability for the Uchiha clan.
I am not saying that all the Uchiha were in on the plan. I find it highly unlikely that they all could have been (especially not the elderly and the children). This also leads me to see how stupid massacring them all was. Now it is possible that locking up the culprits may have led to some sympathy for their cause, or could have been spun by them to incite further unrest. However massacring numerous innocent citizens just to kill a few revolutionaries is really a very bad idea, and the wrong way around it. Therefore it wasn't probably only Itachi who was fine with it, it was just that Itachi was the only one who knew of the plot and was fine with the massacre. The other Uchiha wouldn't have blown a whistle as they were probably a select bunch of strong Uchiha who desired more, they believed Itachi was on their side, turns out they were wrong.
By Sasuke's flashback, do you mean the one scene with Itachi crying? If so, this hardly fits with either suppression, or a revolution for that matter. It just shows that Itachi was sad about what he had done (or been ordered to) for some reason. It fits with Tobi's story, but is hardly proof of anything at all (other than Itachi was sad for some reason).

The massacre happen only a few years after the last war ended, as three years before they made peace with Kumo. So the two should have been under comparable circumstances. All the Uchihas had to be in on the plan. Itachi would have had no reason to wipe out the entire clan if they hadn't been. A point has been made twice about one of the reasons Sasuke was spared was due to him not knowing anything of it. If needed, it seems it would have been quite possible to spare any other innocent members in the same way. Which is where the problem lies, because for it to work, they all would have had to be against Konoha and that seems strange. Well I meant his first flashback during VotE, but the crying is good too. But there's also their father's desire for Itachi to become a useful connection between the family and the village, even though the Uchiha's had their own secret connections to the Anbu, and him taking full responsibility towards Itachi's action later on.

[zimbardo]

Yeah, Sarutobi was said to have attempted it up until the end. Everything indicates the order came from Danzo, but it should be noted that Itachi went to Sarutobi to have him protect Sasuke. So I question that if Sarutobi had enough authority to keep Sasuke safe, why they same sort of intent couldn't have been used beforehand. Them having freedom and respect doesn't mean there still wasn't some discrimination. We saw a similar situation with Neji and his treatment as a branch member. The branch members as a whole is treated as second class, but Neji was shown somewhat respected, at least by Hinata. Haku suggested it when he was speaking of his own past.

Sarutobi probably did have the authority, and he was wrong (in my opinion) to not force Danzou (and possibly the elder 2) to stand down on the action. However, it is also likely that even if Hiruzen had vetoed the action, Danzou may have given Itachi the orders anyway (as he puts the villages condition over almost any 'evil' actions). Would Hiruzen have then taken action on Danzou (and the 2 elders) in this case? To keep Sasuke alive was considerably easier, and I believe that Itachi came to Hiruzen to stop Danzou taking Sasuke's eyes as well (not that Hiruzen necessarily knew about this). As for the branch discrimination, this only occurs in clan. It has not been shown that anyone else in the village treats the 2nd branch (whatever they are called) any differently from the main branch.

The massacre happen only a few years after the last war ended, as three years before they made peace with Kumo. So the two should have been under comparable circumstances. All the Uchihas had to be in on the plan. Itachi would have had no reason to wipe out the entire clan if they hadn't been. A point has been made twice about one of the reasons Sasuke was spared was due to him not knowing anything of it. If needed, it seems it would have been quite possible to spare any other innocent members in the same way. Which is where the problem lies, because for it to work, they all would have had to be against Konoha and that seems strange. Well I meant his first flashback during VotE, but the crying is good too. But there's also their father's desire for Itachi to become a useful connection between the family and the village, even though the Uchiha's had their own secret connections to the Anbu, and him taking full responsibility towards Itachi's action later on.

But the circumstances are not comparable. In Hashirama's time there was no village system. All the clans worked for themselves only, and therefore they lacked the stability and backing that belonging to the village gives them. Therefore forming this truce did more than just stopping them dying, it gave them a time of relative peace and some degree of protection. However in Hiruzen's time, although it was a time of war, the Uchiha were not as segregated and individualistic as they were in Hashiramas. It is not possible that Sasuke was the only innocent. There must have been other children (for example) who can't have known about it. I believe it was more likely that Danzou gave the order to kill all Uchiha (as he may well have desired as many eyes as possible/hated Uchiha/wanted to make sure – pick whichever fits best with you) as that was the only way to be sure that a Uchiha coup could never, ever, happen again. Itachi, however, spared Sasuke more because of his brotherly love than for his innocence (in my opinion). But the flashback also doesn't suggest discrimination. For example, why did the idea that the Uchiha had been discriminated against come as such a shock to Sasuke when he was told? Surely, out of everyone, a Uchiha would have felt this discrimination? Itachi's father wanted him to be a good connection so that he could work as a spy. There was nothing to suggest that Itachi's father ever wanted Itachi to mediate any form of truce/improvement of rights with the village.

On a side topic – but something quite amusing – Outside of Tobi's speech to Sasuke, how many times has it been suggested (by others) that the Uchihas were plotting a coup? I'd laugh if the reason they were exterminated was a separate reason all together, and that the Uchiha were never plotting at all (that would also be a serious mind f**k).

Also, we seem to have gone SERIOUSLY off topic here. Is there another thread we can move this to Rikudo King?

[Rikudou King]

Let's move it to the Hangout Thread then.