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Thread: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

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    Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    We know for a while that Konoha's government is/was far from being an ideal or just example of human society, yet last chapter ( 583 ) further proved that Konoha, despite being known as the greatest, most powerful, the one housing the strongest Kage etc. was rotten to the core, and that shadowy figures like Danzou did whatever they wanted brushing off the authority of the Hokage.

    Danzou threatened the orphanage under the protection of the Hokage, and basically laughed in the faces of the heads when they said that Sandaime was the one to streak a deal with them, providing money to the facility.
    From here is basically Danzou saying that he is the one in charge, not Sarutobi.

    From what we saw, Danzou pratically did whatever he wanted in Konoha and other countries, all under Sarutobi's and Tsunade's nose ( we don't know if ROOT was all that active under the Yondaime, probably mostly because he was Hokage for a short time ) withouth them being aware of it:

    -The incident in Ame, where Danzou betrayed Yahiko's group and aiding Hanzo, a world known terrorist of sort
    -The Uchiha incident, when the Elders pratically did whatever they wanted while Sandaime, the one in charge, was the only one countrary to the massacre. Massacre that granted Danzou a good lot of eyes, again under the Hokage's nose
    -ROOT not-aiding during the Suna invasion and the Pein invasion ( for the latter Tsunade has no blames since she was comatose )
    -ROOT not being disbanded and continuing to act inside the village ( proving that Jiraiya and his "spy network" were likely incompetent and/or lacking )
    -Danzou planting Sai despite Tsunade's idea on the matter
    -The confirmation of the existence of ROOT thanks to Sai, without Tsunade doing anything about it

    This adds to the long list of shortcomings displayed in the matter of the village:

    the container of the Kyuubi, the mightest Bijuu in existance, treated like trash and left alone, potentially leading him into a path of darkness ( very much like Gaara did ) risking to have a Jinchuuriki destroy the village and/or unleashing the Kyuubi.
    Despite the wish of the Yondaime, you know the one that sacrificed his life and the one of his family to save the village.
    Same for the last Uchiha, a boy 8 year old tortured by his brother after seeing his family murdered, left alone in his compound., instead of trying to strenghten the bonds with the Leaf Village.

    Total carelessness regarding the upbringing of the shinobis ( Kakashi as a teacher sucked badly, same with Asuma and Kurenai, since apart from their clan jutsus or prior jutsu knowed, the kids were nothing special.
    Example? Sakura, Ino, Chouji, Hinata, Kiba to an extent, same with Naruto and Shikamaru ) and their general placement .
    Three weak nobodies from the Sound dispatched of Sakura and the whole team 10, while against Lee they needed to gang up and be lucky as hell is a good example.

    Leaving Orochimaru alone to flee, leaving Jiraiya to do nothing but peep on women, leaving Tsunade to be a drunk gambler instead of at least forcing 2 of the Sannins to be in the Village, expecially after the death of Yondaime, one of the most feared Shinobi in existance and the near annihilation of one of the founding clans of Konoha.

    The Hyuuga incident, that was total and utter bullshit:
    basically Sandaime bend over and proved to be Raikage's bitch despite being in the right, instead of saying "bring it on, you invade us we destroy you".
    Same with the Caged Bird Seal, a good Hokage would slap the hyuuga and tell them the Byakugan is useless anyway.
    Expecially after the Raikage tried to kidnap Kushina, good job on that too by the way, saved by a brat Yondaime.

    We know from experience that no village is pretty or full of justice ( hell Kumo kidnapped young ninjas from all over the world, Kiri made a test by slaughtering companions plus the bloodline purge, Iwa let's not even go there, Suna the same ) yet at least kages are seen as powerful figures, and Kages are the one ruling the village.
    From what we saw, Danzou pratically called the shots in Konoha, and controlled everything from the shadows.
    The only thing Konoha has to be thankful is that he had Konoha's best intention at heart.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity warbandit66's Avatar
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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    I agree with everything you said but I read that the Sarutobi clan where given the responsibility of forming unity amongst the Nara, Akimichi and Yamanaka clan which I think Asuma did a very good job of.
    Jiraiya: His hair are the best

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Jessie's Avatar
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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Kish has been showing Konoha's dirt for a while now. Likely to establish why Naruto and the K11 will be needed to change things.

    Danzou was operating a shadow government. Hiruzen and Minato(you forgot him) obviously knew what he was up to, but still allowed him to continue in the shadows. Why? Because even if he was a scumbag, he was Konoha's scumbag and was willing to do the dirty work to protect the village. Even if it meant working with people like Orochimaru and Hanzou. He was very useful to Konoha. Tsunade wanted nothing to do with him, but he was too powerful by the time she became Hokage, and was backed by the two elders.

    Someone like Danzou would not be able to exist in a Konoha under Naruto. And that is the whole point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Total carelessness regarding the upbringing of the shinobis ( Kakashi as a teacher sucked badly, same with Asuma and Kurenai, since apart from their clan jutsus or prior jutsu knowed, the kids were nothing special.
    Example? Sakura, Ino, Chouji, Hinata, Kiba to an extent, same with Naruto and Shikamaru ) and their general placement .
    Three weak nobodies from the Sound dispatched of Sakura and the whole team 10, while against Lee they needed to gang up and be lucky as hell is a good example.
    I disagree with this. I think they did a good job. Naruto's generation has accomplished a great deal despite all being under 17.

    And most importantly, outside of Sasuke, they seem to have the compassion that was lacking in the previous generations. They were setup to right the wrongs of their world. They are the one thing in Konoha that worked.

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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Honestly, Danzo's the only guy who really ran things the way a real ninja would.

    All of the other Hokages were like, "Just follow the power of your heart and protect your friends, no matter what!"

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    The Green Knight MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Gats's Avatar
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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Even if the Hokages suspected Danzou ruling his Root Unit, they couldn't prove it, thanks to Danzou precautions (tongue sealed etc). I think there is more a juridictional reason behind. The Hokage is not a tyrant, there is some kind of power balance at least in Konoha, that's why Hiruzen couldn't simply kick Danzou's ass. Besides he would make an additionnal enemy who knows very well Konoha's system.

    Danzou did everything on their back, they can't know everything if their own collaborators (higher ups) are covering Danzou too. Besides we forget it was a time of wars before, so, sometimes or often, the Kages had to close their eyes. I doubt that anyone among the Kage and the higher up knew what Danzou did with Yahiko.

    Aside Naruto and Sasuke's cases (+Oro) which are pure shame, it's too easy to judge the Kages after we saw the consequences.

    We also forgot all the positive side, like a long period of peace (the essential) until Oro showed up, the conversion of the wars into Chuunin exams, economic matters are more important etc. IMO the essential things were going to the right direction for once. In the end, there was one weakness, which was the origin of almost everything bad afterward : Danzou. Without what we recently know from the manga, it was still hard for us to realize the negative level of this old man's influence. The same can be said for the Kages (and to an extent, the higher ups), even more, they certainly had less intel than us readers.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Jessie's Avatar
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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Quote Originally Posted by Gats View Post
    Even if the Hokages suspected Danzou ruling his Root Unit, they couldn't prove it, thanks to Danzou precautions (tongue sealed etc). I think there is more a juridictional reason behind. The Hokage is not a tyrant, there is some kind of power balance at least in Konoha, that's why Hiruzen couldn't simply kick Danzou's ass. Besides he would make an additionnal enemy who knows very well Konoha's system.

    Danzou did everything on their back, they can't know everything if their own collaborators (higher ups) are covering Danzou too. Besides we forget it was a time of wars before, so, sometimes or often, the Kages had to close their eyes. I doubt that anyone among the Kage and the higher up knew what Danzou did with Yahiko.
    Shikamaru's dad called Danzou a fascist to his face and right in front of everyone when they were picking a new Hokage. I would say Danzou and his actions were well know at least to the Konoha leadership. And tolerated by both Hiruzen and Minato because Danzou was extremely effective for Konoha. He did the nasty things the Hokages couldn't or wouldn't to keep Konoha ahead. Sometimes you have to be brutal in a brutal world.

    Part of the ninja system is spying, double-crossing, manipulation, assassination, and even mass murder. Ninja are tools. With all these damn DBZ powerups and ridiculous hax fights, we forget at the heart of Naruto is the ninja system. Considering how violent the other villages were, and even those within Konoha(the Uchiha) Danzou and ROOT were needed to keep Konoha safe.

    There is a reason Naruto has set out to change the ninja system. Kishi has put the blame on the ninja system rather than the individuals(Sasuke, Kabuto, Gaara, Neji, Itachi, Nagato, etc) who were warped by it.
    Last edited by Jessie; April 19, 2012 at 06:58 PM.

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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Quote Originally Posted by warbandit66 View Post
    I agree with everything you said but I read that the Sarutobi clan where given the responsibility of forming unity amongst the Nara, Akimichi and Yamanaka clan which I think Asuma did a very good job of.
    Well they knew each other from childhood, what I believe is that Asuma pretty much taught them well about the Will of Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    Kish has been showing Konoha's dirt for a while now. Likely to establish why Naruto and the K11 will be needed to change things.

    Danzou was operating a shadow government. Hiruzen and Minato(you forgot him) obviously knew what he was up to, but still allowed him to continue in the shadows. Why? Because even if he was a scumbag, he was Konoha's scumbag and was willing to do the dirty work to protect the village. Even if it meant working with people like Orochimaru and Hanzou. He was very useful to Konoha. Tsunade wanted nothing to do with him, but he was too powerful by the time she became Hokage, and was backed by the two elders.

    Someone like Danzou would not be able to exist in a Konoha under Naruto. And that is the whole point.
    They are hypocrite then, plain and simple.
    You not preach openly about the will of fire if you then turn a blind eye on something like that. While I agree on what you said ( realistically figures like Danzou are too much important ) I do believe that they could have do much better than that.
    As for Yondaime I did not forget about him, I did mention ( in the third paragraph ) that we don't know if under Yondaime Danzou and ROOT was all that active since he was Hokage for a very short period of time


    Quote Quote:
    I disagree with this. I think they did a good job. Naruto's generation has accomplished a great deal despite all being under 17.

    And most importantly, outside of Sasuke, they seem to have the compassion that was lacking in the previous generations. They were setup to right the wrongs of their world. They are the one thing in Konoha that worked.
    The way I see it, most was thanks to Naruto.
    I'll explain:
    remember the Chunin exams? Did any of the guys had anything that wasn't a single clan jutsu? Did Team 8 had any genjutsu? Did Team 7 had any ninjutsu apart of the Uchiha ones and the Kage Bushins until Kakashi personally trained Sasuke? Did team 10 had any skill in combat apart a single clan jutsu and Shika's brain?

    The way I see it the jounins were pretty lax, and we saw in recent chapters that most of the Rookie 12 was inspired by Naruto:
    Hinata, 'nuff said.
    Kiba, being defeated by Naruto and marked him as his rival.
    Lee, showed by Naruto that hardwork can topple geniuses.
    Neji, showed that even if he was caged, he could change his fate.
    Sakura, all around influenced by Naruto's will and stubborness.
    Sai, showed by what friendship is.
    Shika, influenced by Naruto's will to the point that he, and I quote "wants to follow him and walk alongside him".
    Chouji and Ino, same when Naruto 1HKO Kakuzu and showed just how much he grew.
    All the rest of Konoha too, when Naruto saved the village by going against Gaara first, retrieving Tsunade and saving the Village against Pein.
    While they had their moments too, I believe that the main source of inspiration and growth was thanks to Naruto, hell this war was, for the most part, for Naruto's ( and Bee's ) sake until Madara showed up

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    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    nice thread,but I think it's a bit utopian: of course the hokage couldn't decide everything,and of course the other ninjas didn't think as does he either. if a hokage had wanted to be followed no matter what (so to avoid the existence of people like danzo) they would have used Koto Amatsukami,to make the others' mind as theirs,obviously impossible.

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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    nice thread,but I think it's a bit utopian: of course the hokage couldn't decide everything,and of course the other ninjas didn't think as does he either. if a hokage had wanted to be followed no matter what (so to avoid the existence of people like danzo) they would have used Koto Amatsukami,to make the others' mind as theirs,obviously impossible.
    Thanks ( or do you prefer grazie? lol ) but Danzou did, and without Koto since at the time of Ame, or the orphanage I don't think Shisui even unlocked his Sharingan, and those events were way prior the Uchiha massacre.
    Danzou controlled everything from the shadows even without KA, he was simply that good.
    Which can't be said for Hiruzen, that's for sure

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Smokes's Avatar
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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    Shikamaru's dad called Danzou a fascist to his face and right in front of everyone when they were picking a new Hokage. I would say Danzou and his actions were well know at least to the Konoha leadership. And tolerated by both Hiruzen and Minato because Danzou was extremely effective for Konoha. He did the nasty things the Hokages couldn't or wouldn't to keep Konoha ahead. Sometimes you have to be brutal in a brutal world.

    Part of the ninja system is spying, double-crossing, manipulation, assassination, and even mass murder. Ninja are tools. With all these damn DBZ powerups and ridiculous hax fights, we forget at the heart of Naruto is the ninja system. Considering how violent the other villages were, and even those within Konoha(the Uchiha) Danzou and ROOT were needed to keep Konoha safe.

    There is a reason Naruto has set out to change the ninja system. Kishi has put the blame on the ninja system rather than the individuals(Sasuke, Kabuto, Gaara, Neji, Itachi, Nagato, etc) who were warped by it.
    How was Danzou effective for Konoha? He conspired with Hanzou with the expectation that Hanzou would help him become hokage, not for the village. He sat on his wrinkled old butt during the Pain invasion to help himself get a chance at becoming hokage even when his own ruthless brainwashed troops wanted to act.

    Danzou worked for his own ambitions, not the village. That's why we haven't seen his face in any of the attacks on Konoha. We've never seen him do anything to protect, or for the sake of the village. The only people who even thought that he had the village's best interest in mind were his two ancient coevals, the advisers, and his brainwashed troops.

    Anbu does the dirty work for Konoha. Root did the dirty work for Danzou.....things like targeting Anko for assassination to cover up his collusion with Konoha's enemies.
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    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Thanks ( or do you prefer grazie? lol ) but Danzou did, and without Koto since at the time of Ame, or the orphanage I don't think Shisui even unlocked his Sharingan, and those events were way prior the Uchiha massacre.
    Danzou controlled everything from the shadows even without KA, he was simply that good.
    Which can't be said for Hiruzen, that's for sure
    well,it's not so bad nonetheless: hiruzen couldn't avoid having those men in his village,maybe he failed because he didn't kill them,but again it would have been just a waste of strong men. danzo threatened the orphanage in a way everyone could (think about a child who is victim of bullying into a school,can the Establishment intervene?nope ) So I still think danzo wasn't in charge just because he obtained what he wanted.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Jessie's Avatar
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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokes View Post
    How was Danzou effective for Konoha? He conspired with Hanzou with the expectation that Hanzou would help him become hokage, not for the village. He sat on his wrinkled old butt during the Pain invasion to help himself get a chance at becoming hokage even when his own ruthless brainwashed troops wanted to act.

    Danzou worked for his own ambitions, not the village. That's why we haven't seen his face in any of the attacks on Konoha. We've never seen him do anything to protect, or for the sake of the village. The only people who even thought that he had the village's best interest in mind were his two ancient coevals, the advisers, and his brainwashed troops.

    Anbu does the dirty work for Konoha. Root did the dirty work for Danzou.....things like targeting Anko for assassination to cover up his collusion with Konoha's enemies.
    No, the scariest thing about Danzou was his patriotism for Konoha. No matter what, he did love Konoha and thought he was acting in its best interests. Even if that meant doing evil things and letting half of the village die. He would consider that a small price to pay as he rebuilt Konoha back under his leadership.

    It would of been easy for Kishimoto to make Danzou some selfish monster, but he didn't. Perhaps Kish was making a statement about extreme nationalism through Danzou?

    In the end, Danzou didn't believe in the Will of Fire that the First Hokage gave Konoha. But instead put his faith in the brutal ninja system. That would be his undoing.
    Last edited by Jessie; April 20, 2012 at 07:43 PM.

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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post

    Someone like Danzou would not be able to exist in a Konoha under Naruto. And that is the whole point.
    I think you misunderstand the situation , Naruto even hasn't dare to asking anything about Nagato's past and Uchiha massacre from those elder and we know he was already a so called " hero " , so those elder couldn't do anything to him .......

    that why story need someone like Sasuke and Itachi to killing bad guys from konoha !!! ( Danzo , Orochimaru , Kabuto , Danzo's royal ninja and .... ) >>

    in the end , Naruto should fight with an alone person that having nothing but his only personal power ( if we ignore Talk no jutsu and love no jutsu , fighting with an person who having nothing is easier than fighting with an organization like Root ) ....

    so the main task will be accomplish by Sasuke and Itachi .... and if Sasuke get killed , then cycle of hatred would get breal ( in Kishi's opinion ) , because he has no one ; so he would be forgotten in few month ... just like his clan ... and kishi would come and saying " my dear readers , in the end , the Hero/Savior , break the cycle of hatred and bring peace into his world "

    Kishi making Sasuke an symbol of hatred and Naruto would defeat this symbol .... but if we see things from another view , Naruto/Kishi has no answer for hatred of his world , so kishi want to solve everything by defeating Symbol of hatred ...

    well , IMO hatred isn't bad thing , it is useful some times ....

    well , my English isn't good to talking about philosophy but at least I can say that Kishi philosophy is a childish and unreal philosophy that have no value in world ....
    Last edited by shafagh; April 21, 2012 at 03:21 AM.
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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokes View Post
    How was Danzou effective for Konoha? He conspired with Hanzou with the expectation that Hanzou would help him become hokage, not for the village. He sat on his wrinkled old butt during the Pain invasion to help himself get a chance at becoming hokage even when his own ruthless brainwashed troops wanted to act.

    Danzou worked for his own ambitions, not the village. That's why we haven't seen his face in any of the attacks on Konoha. We've never seen him do anything to protect, or for the sake of the village. The only people who even thought that he had the village's best interest in mind were his two ancient coevals, the advisers, and his brainwashed troops.

    Anbu does the dirty work for Konoha. Root did the dirty work for Danzou.....things like targeting Anko for assassination to cover up his collusion with Konoha's enemies.
    In his defense, I'm pretty sure establishing peace with another village would look pretty good on the resume of anyone who wanted to be Hokage. Wanting Hanzou's help doesn't necessarily mean he was planning something like a coup. And presuming he knew what Nagato did against Hanzou with the Gedo Mazo, that probably would have been enough reason not to risk all of Konoha's potential forces.

    Let's not forget, that while he clearly didn't care whether they died or not, Danzo as far as we know it never raised his hand against either Sarutobi or Tsunade. Also from what we were given with the Uchiha Massacre, it didn't seem like he was so crooked as to not inform Sarutobi of what was going on. And he did attempt to keep Nagato from having any chance at grabbing the Kyuubi. So it's more like Danzo was doing both, working to protect Konoha when it lead towards his own ambitions.

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    Re: Konoha's uncaring/inept government

    its not any different from the real world where intelligence agencies work under the noses of governments yet they can do whatever they want and act however they want without anyones knowledge

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