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Thread: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

  1. #16
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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Except the fact that they were listed and titled together as a trio. Implying they were the same level. It could have been, Yuki/Sanada... and Yanagi. But it was the three.
    They were hyped as they dominated the nationals for 2 years in a row yeah, but they were titled together implying they were the same.

    Explain.
    Alright, let's say Yanagi was strong enough to completly dominate every opponent he faced during the previous year, so 6-0. Now even though Yukimura and Sanada were stronger, it's impossible to get anything better than 6-0, so on paper their results all look the same. That doesn't mean however that someone who gets to 6-3 against Yanagi would also get that far against Yukimura and Sanada.

    We're even told that it's Yukimura >> Sanada >> Yanagi over time. Yukimura dominated Nationals!Sanada (so obviously he's above Kanto!Sanada too), and Yanagi never manages to take a single game against Sanada once Sanada starts using Rin. That doesn't really look like equal strength to me.

    As for the competition being stronger this year, there's a reason these guys are the first MSers ever invited to the U-17 Camp, or for comments like

    Quote Quote:
    This year is a once in a decade gathering of talents.
    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27270...apter-373.html

    It's made clear that the level is higher this year, and with a higher level, skill differences become more obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    They're the called the Great Three Monsters of Rikkai for a reason. I don't think Fuji could've beaten Yanagi at the regionals, either
    Why do you think that? Both Inui and Mizuki have experienced that their data doesn't work against Fuji, and Yanagi has data as his style as well. It's hardly unreasonable to assume that Yanagi would be unable to get Fuji's data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    Nah, Yanagi was always a tough opponent. The fact that his data was more precise than Inui's made him a serious threat. How Inui won that bout by his abandoning of abandoning of his data is pure plot. Puuuuuuuuuuure plot. Yanagi should've murked him.
    Inui never abanonded his data to begin with.

    And of course it's plot, so is everything else that happens.

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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Alright, let's say Yanagi was strong enough to completly dominate every opponent he faced during the previous year, so 6-0. Now even though Yukimura and Sanada were stronger, it's impossible to get anything better than 6-0, so on paper their results all look the same. That doesn't mean however that someone who gets to 6-3 against Yanagi would also get that far against Yukimura and Sanada.
    At this time it was strongly implied they were all one level although this is a fair point, Konomi could have underlined prior to the finals that Yanagi was not at Yuki/Sanada level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    We're even told that it's Yukimura >> Sanada >> Yanagi over time. Yukimura dominated Nationals!Sanada (so obviously he's above Kanto!Sanada too), and Yanagi never manages to take a single game against Sanada once Sanada starts using Rin. That doesn't really look like equal strength to me.
    Except at the Regionals before Yanagi's match we did not have this deep info yet... So this isnt really valid to Regionals!Yanagi VS Regionals!Fuji


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    As for the competition being stronger this year, there's a reason these guys are the first MSers ever invited to the U-17 Camp, or for comments like


    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27270...apter-373.html

    It's made clear that the level is higher this year, and with a higher level, skill differences become more obvious.
    ...Again. We werent aware of this before Singles 3 at the Regionals.

  3. #18
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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    And that's important because...? We are discussing the matter now and not in the week after PoT 215 was released.

    Why can't we apply newly gained information to prior events?

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brandnewkid's Avatar
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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Why do you think that? Both Inui and Mizuki have experienced that their data doesn't work against Fuji, and Yanagi has data as his style as well. It's hardly unreasonable to assume that Yanagi would be unable to get Fuji's data.
    Inui and Mizuki aren't Yanagi, who was shown to have data and skill surpassing them both.

    Quote Quote:
    Inui never abanonded his data to begin with.
    Hence, why I said "the abandoning of his abandoning?"

    Quote Quote:
    And of course it's plot, so is everything else that happens.
    There's plot and then there's BS-writing.

  5. #20
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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    Inui and Mizuki aren't Yanagi, who was shown to have data and skill surpassing them both.
    Except that that was never shown in the case of Inui and Yanagi. During their childhood their match remained unresolved at 5-4, so the best Yanagi could have gotten was a 6-4 which is nowhere near a significant skill gap. Then we got to know that Inui trained like crazy during the time leading up to the tournament. Remind me what we saw Yanagi doing again... or right, we didn't see anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    Hence, why I said "the abandoning of his abandoning?"
    "Abandoning the abandoned" implies that you abandoned it at some point and then went back to it. Inui used DT all the time though, so he didn't abandon the abandoned, he simply stuck to it. Renji just thinks Inui stopped using DT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    There's plot and then there's BS-writing.
    You're claiming it's the latter yet so far you have supported that claim with a whole lot of nothing.

  6. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Except at the Regionals before Yanagi's match we did not have this deep info yet... So this isnt really valid to Regionals!Yanagi VS Regionals!Fuji
    All of this seemed more on the line of "Was national and SPoT a mistake". Anyways, Sanada using Rin and owning Renji is information given at the Kantou tournament. So it is implied that there is a huge gap between the two even back then.

    Inui is powerful Powerful enough to take U-17 badge from the first stringers. And he's show to Renji's equal since SPoT started. I might agreed with Renji>Inui at national. But I can't agree with that right now anymore. People need to stop putting things they don't like that happen in the plot as BS-writing. You can pretty much do that against every characters. I used example from SPoT to show Inui victory over Yanagi is NOT a plot hax already.

    And I'll still stand by that Kirihara's the one that seemed to get plot-hax in his match against Fuji. If anyone want to challenge that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    Fuji's a Mary Sue. That's why having him get beat by Shiraishi was such a great turnout. Kirihara was always intended to be an anti-Echizen kinda character. He even accessed Muga. His full-bodied Devil Mode was surprisingly balanced and well-done. He gained an increase in speed and power but it was nothing outrageous.

    Angel Mode, however, wasn't as up to par as Devil Mode.
    What he intend to be hardly matter. Fuji was intend to be Tezuka level characters at one point. And he's always stated and repeated so many times throughout the manga to be a super strong genius player that no one can get him to be serious. He had a tons more hyped than Kirihara.
    Last edited by -Ken-; April 22, 2012 at 11:43 AM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    All of this seemed more on the line of "Was national and SPoT a mistake". Anyways, Sanada using Rin and owning Renji is information given at the Kantou tournament. So it is implied that there is a huge gap between the two even back then.
    No shit sherlock.
    Fayte and I were discussing on Rikkai VS Seigaku how it should have went. Therefore we would have gone into the match not knowing about Yanagi VS Sanada.
    So all knowledge on the series is up til the semifinals.
    At that stage in the story, Yanagi, Yukimura and Sanada were each referred to with the same prestige.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Inui is powerful Powerful enough to take U-17 badge from the first stringers. And he's show to Renji's equal since SPoT started. I might agreed with Renji>Inui at national. But I can't agree with that right now anymore. People need to stop putting things they don't like that happen in the plot as BS-writing. You can pretty much do that against every characters. I used example from SPoT to show Inui victory over Yanagi is NOT a plot hax already.
    An example from SPoT is irrelevant for Regionals though... Back then and now the strength tier's have changed dramatically with all characters.
    SPoT proves NOTHING with what happened at the regionals. Inui could have just improved in the mountains is all.
    Although your right to clarify that right now Inui >Yanagi.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    And I'll still stand by that Kirihara's the one that seemed to get plot-hax in his match against Fuji. If anyone want to challenge that.
    I agree here. Although they both did.

  8. #23
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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    No shit sherlock.
    Fayte and I were discussing on Rikkai VS Seigaku how it should have went. Therefore we would have gone into the match not knowing about Yanagi VS Sanada.
    So all knowledge on the series is up til the semifinals.
    At that stage in the story, Yanagi, Yukimura and Sanada were each referred to with the same prestige.
    This still doesn't make any sense to me. Why does the information past the SFs not matter? Just because we didn't know about the events yet doesn't mean they didn't happen.

    Like, if we had gotten the information about Sanada beating Renji before the end of S3, would that have changed anything?

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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    This still doesn't make any sense to me. Why does the information past the SFs not matter? Just because we didn't know about the events yet doesn't mean they didn't happen.

    Like, if we had gotten the information about Sanada beating Renji before the end of S3, would that have changed anything?
    We would have known Yanagi isnt really near the level of Yuki and Sanada like implied. So yes. It would have changed things.
    What dont you get?

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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    We would have known Yanagi isnt really near the level of Yuki and Sanada like implied. So yes. It would have changed things.
    What dont you get?
    I don't get why you're ignoring the information we have that shows us their level just because that information wasn't given to us before the match.

    Say that statement about Sanada beating Yanagi would have been before S3, it would feel horribly disconnected to me. Who cares at that point whether Sanada >> Yanagi when we don't know Sanada's level, don't know Yanagi's level and it's completly irrelevant to the match we're about to see. It makes much more sense to me to place it where Konomi did as we have a benchline in Yanagi.

  11. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    We would have known Yanagi isnt really near the level of Yuki and Sanada like implied. So yes. It would have changed things.
    What dont you get?
    I thought this thread is to discuss "Is Seigaku vs Rikkai a mistake in a grand scheme of things"? So of course all things should matter.

    If you want to discuss it just by Kantou Final alone, there is no reason to put down Inui and other co, using evidence past Kantou region. You can just take it that Fuji and Inui are that weak/strong, however you want to put it.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brandnewkid's Avatar
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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Except that that was never shown in the case of Inui and Yanagi. During their childhood their match remained unresolved at 5-4, so the best Yanagi could have gotten was a 6-4 which is nowhere near a significant skill gap. Then we got to know that Inui trained like crazy during the time leading up to the tournament. Remind me what we saw Yanagi doing again... or right, we didn't see anything.



    "Abandoning the abandoned" implies that you abandoned it at some point and then went back to it. Inui used DT all the time though, so he didn't abandon the abandoned, he simply stuck to it. Renji just thinks Inui stopped using DT.



    You're claiming it's the latter yet so far you have supported that claim with a whole lot of nothing.
    Well I guess you win this argument. Konomi's writing is good.

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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    I don't get why you're ignoring the information we have that shows us their level just because that information wasn't given to us before the match.

    Say that statement about Sanada beating Yanagi would have been before S3, it would feel horribly disconnected to me. Who cares at that point whether Sanada >> Yanagi when we don't know Sanada's level, don't know Yanagi's level and it's completly irrelevant to the match we're about to see. It makes much more sense to me to place it where Konomi did as we have a benchline in Yanagi.
    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I thought this thread is to discuss "Is Seigaku vs Rikkai a mistake in a grand scheme of things"? So of course all things should matter.

    If you want to discuss it just by Kantou Final alone, there is no reason to put down Inui and other co, using evidence past Kantou region. You can just take it that Fuji and Inui are that weak/strong, however you want to put it.
    @ Ken
    Wasnt necessarily on the thread title. Thread conversations dont always stay exactly to the title.

    I was saying specifically Yanagi VS Fuji in the Regionals, and that saying Yanagi would win without plot power is logical. Its not been explained why its illogical.
    Im open to say that Fuji could still have won as he is the exception to Data Tennis (Sounds like plot hax there).

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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I was saying specifically Yanagi VS Fuji in the Regionals, and that saying Yanagi would win without plot power is logical. Its not been explained why its illogical.
    Why is it logical? You still haven't explained that.

    You're making the claim, so surely you can support it somehow. And you still haven't answered my question, why are you not taking the information we gain at a later point into account?

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    Re: PoT1: Seigaku vs. Rikkai (Kanto Finals) - Was It A Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Why is it logical? You still haven't explained that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    You're making the claim, so surely you can support it somehow. And you still haven't answered my question, why are you not taking the information we gain at a later point into account?
    Ill say so again. Knowing Yanagi and Sanada are at different levels prior to facing Fuji would help in terms of blaming things on plot power. If Fuji won I wouldnt be stunned and wouldnt necessarily blame it on plot power had it been Yuki/Sanada the 2 demons, and Yanagi the best data player as oppose to the great 3.

    Taking everything in account is fine, but you kept saying you didnt see my ''logic''. I have given logic to the passing comment I made but you may feel indifferent to this.

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